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[edit] History & Humanities

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[edit] June 2

[edit] contracts

how old do you have to be to sign a contract in california?? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.14.124.175 (talk) 00:21, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

If this random website is to be believed, the age at which one can enter into a contract without parental consent is 18 throughout the United States. Algebraist 00:27, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Wikipedia agrees (for most states - there are some exceptions). See Age of majority#Countries and subdivisions and scroll down to the US (this is assuming that the age of majority is the same as the age at which one can sign a contract - the article mentions it but doesn't include a reference). Zain Ebrahim (talk) 01:15, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Emancipation of minors might also interest you. --Lisa4edit (talk) 18:43, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] evictions

Can the owners of our 6-unit apartments shut off our water while in the beginning of the eviction process?--Lisalisa1977 (talk) 00:25, 2 June 2008 (UTC)lisalisa1977

Where?Edison (talk) 01:07, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Assuming the United States, rental codes vary from state to state. Usually there is a "Renter's Rights" group that you can check with on such things. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 01:16, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Most U.S. jurisdictions require that landlords meet the housing code for occupied residential properties, and the housing code generally specifies clean, running water. So, in most jurisdictions, the landlord would be violating the housing code by shutting off the water before an eviction is ordered by a court and carried out by constables. As the previous poster suggested, you should contact a tenants' advocacy group in your jurisdiction, who can advise you on your options. Marco polo (talk) 01:53, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Remember wikipedia can't be a trusted source of legal advice, you might want a solicitor. SGGH speak! 14:41, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Who invented the presumption of innocence?

The article on presumption of innocence does not talk about the origins of the concept. What king, judge, legislature, constitutional convention, or other authority was the first one to declare that anyone has a right to be presumed innocent until proven guilty? Or if that's not known, what is the earliest known legal system to have operated on that basis?

--Anonymous, edited 08:11 UTC, June 2, 2008.

Jeralyn Merritt tries to trace The History of the Presumption of Innocence here. ---Sluzzelin talk 09:28, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Enlightenment Painting

I'm looking for an Enlightenment painting that has a young noble boy dressed aristocratically, learning farming techniques from a peasant. --Gary123 (talk) 15:28, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Surnames

What are the common surnames in Iran among the Shi'a Muslims, What are the common names in Bangladesh among the Muslim population, what are the common names in Pakistan and What are the common names in Afghanistan? Is there any website about these thing I ask about? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.64.129.52 (talk) 15:30, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Vienna Convention on Diplomatic immunity

How many countries have ratify it and signed it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.64.129.52 (talk) 15:45, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

I found a list (linking to Google cache to avoid password requirement). Algebraist 16:30, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Jefferson corpus

How would one go about obtaining a corpus containing all the recorded words of Thomas Jefferson as text file suitable for Markov analysis (thus, his words only without introductions other and crap that litters books of his writings)? I would have liked to think someone'd have already created such a file, but a cursory search was not availing. Sometimes I despair of the internet. 153.1.47.242 (talk) 15:48, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

The nineteen volumes of The Writings of Thomas Jefferson are available in electronic format: OCLC 43904757. Internet Archive seems to list them all available in plain text [1], tho you would need to strip out those parts you did not want.—eric 17:17, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] basis for naming of historical ethnic groups

When historians refer to ethnic groups from ancient times, such as the Assyrians and the Akkadians, what is the basis for this classification? What do you need to call yourself an Akkadian, for example? Does it depend on language, culture, or both? Thanks in advance, 203.221.126.29 (talk) 18:11, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

They usually use the terminolgy of historians of the time. i.e. the Greeks refer to the Celts as the Keltoi, but it is no assertion of ethnic similarity other that the greeks thought them to be the same. See Barbarians and Celts. Fribbler (talk) 00:00, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Iskhvakus / Ikshvaku - same or different?

Hi,

While reading the article on Skanda I came across these lines : The deity was venerated also by the "Iskhvakus", an Andhra dynasty

The article on Rama speaks of "Ikshvaku" dynasty. Rama was the prince of the Suryavamsha (Sun Dynasty) House of Ikshvaku

Iskhvakus / Ikshvaku - Are these two words with different spelling actually referring to the same clan or dynasty?

Writesprincesswiki (talk) 19:14, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Hi Writesprincess, they seem to be the same. The first as plural and the second singular. Of the dynasty, describes its members (Ikshvakus) which also belong to what is the Andhra Kingdom/tribe. The House of Ikshvaku would be the collective, and singular, afaik. (illustration: ...was venerated by Texans, an American state. X was leader of Texas. Clunky, but does that make sense?) Julia Rossi (talk) 11:35, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Her examples are spelled differently though. Since we have a bunch of Ikshvaku articles I would assume "Iskhvaku" is a typo, easy to make since those consonants never appear together in English. Adam Bishop (talk) 11:59, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Graven Image

In the 10 Commandments, does the term graven image really include photographs? If so, how come so many Christians take photos? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.119.61.7 (talk) 20:47, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Only if you were to worship the phtograph as an idol. :-) Fribbler (talk) 20:49, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Exodus 20:4? Some understand "graven image" to mean a carved idol or representation of a god used as an object of worship particularly in the context of the world the Hebrews moved through and its influences. Peoples around them used objects: trees, stones, sculptures and images which weren't only worshipped as representations (afaik) but as the god itself. It was important for them to distinguish themselves against this background as a select group dedicated to a rather abstract power. Others take it to mean any twoD or 3D representation. The key seems to be "idol" as something that might replace or distract from the Hebrew god. Julia Rossi (talk) 00:24, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
I've wondered the same about Muslims not being suppossed to create pictures, yet they all seem to watch tv and have illustrated newspapers and magazines etc, even the most devout/fanatical. 80.0.108.118 (talk) 00:28, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
(econ) I forgot your Christian snappers: it looks like the more abstract statement in Ex 20:3 applies, "Do not have any other gods before me", so rationally imo, a Christian as such (who is not defecting to the Antichristian Church of Photographic Worship) can snap away. Julia Rossi (talk) 00:32, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
About Muslims, for background there's the Islam article: in the Qur'an, "No vision can grasp Him, but His grasp is over all vision. He is above all comprehension, yet is acquainted with all things" (Qur'an 6:103). Here the emphasis is on the overarching oneness of God rather than banning images or physical likeness representations of god – one of the possible mis-representations of the indefinable. This article in the Wall Street Journal[2] discusses Islam not forbidding images as such, and that different groups activate Islamic traditions differently.[3]. Christianity had its anti-images activations as well in Protestantism, the Reformation and Puritanism afaik, mostly in reaction to interpretations of Catholic practice and aligning themselves with a strictly direct reading of the bible. Hope this helps, Julia Rossi (talk) 00:46, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Naked Nazi

I saw a life-size statue out back of Buda Castle that I could swear I've seen depictions of, but I can't put my finger on it. It was a blackened bronze, I guess, of a naked man bareback on a smallish horse. The horse was in a crouch, as if about to spring. The man had on nothing but a helmet very much like the one worn by the Germans in WWII. He was blowing a post horn, one of the bugle-shaped kind, not a round one. --Milkbreath (talk) 21:33, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

I only thought of naked riders on already rearing horses. Is it one snapshot before this? I found it and links to other pictures at de:Budapester Reiter, which has no article on en.wikipedia. Leonardo did sketch a lot of rearing horses, with and without nude riders wearing helmets. Perhaps it is a modern interpretation (Wehrmacht helmet)? ---Sluzzelin talk 10:46, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
The horse's posture was something like that (I described that badly), as was the rider's. The overall impression was not so bulgingly mythological, though, more realistic-heroic, if you know what I mean, but not quite state-approved, either. It looks like one was after the other, but which, who can say? --Milkbreath (talk) 11:01, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
The only two statues of a listed for Buda castle that come close are these [4] (3rd from the bottom) and [5]. None of them is naked. There are however tombs from the Turkish era listed for outside of the castle. So maybe you saw a Turkish grave marker. --76.111.32.200 (talk) 20:58, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

OK, I found it online: here. The plaque in the ground in front of it has the name of the sculptor (Petri Lajos) and the date (1935). I've been able to get some of the words. "Erdélyi" is "Transylvanian". Székely is a Hungarian enclave in Transylvania. "Huszárok" is hussar. The range of dates has me buffaloed, and what's up with the helmet and the nudity, not to mention the horn? Is it a mythological reference? --Milkbreath (talk) 01:24, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Catcher in the Rye

Where is Holden Caulfield meant to be writing the book from ?? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.5.206.57 (talk) 20:55, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Moved from language desk -Elmer Clark (talk) 21:41, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
It's never made clear. I've heard people suggest that he's writing it from a mental hospital, but I don't feel that there's a whole lot to support that. -Elmer Clark (talk) 21:43, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Supply and Demand

My name is Bob,

I read the supply and demand page, but I'm still wondering, how would a business owner, for example, calculate how much to charge for say, a dozen bananas?

If you would like to contact me

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.113.19.14 (talk) 21:56, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Sorry, Bob, I removed your email as per the Desk guidelines. See above. 200.49.224.88 (talk) 22:28, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

You don't have to calculate anything - whether as seller nor as buyer. Just push the price until nobody buy it or try to bargain until nobody sells to you. 217.168.1.158 (talk) 23:40, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Are you producer, distributor or retailer? You will find retail pricing in the the last one and check out Production, costs, and pricing, cheers Julia Rossi (talk) 00:11, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

There ought to be a diagram somewhere that has price along the x axis, and profit along the Y axis. Since lower prices mean (in theory, and with some exceptions) more sales but less profit per item sold, and higher prices less sales but greater profit per item, then there is an optimum price that gives the most profit overall. Profit = (number of items sold (price - unit cost)) - overheads.

In practical terms, you'd probably look at the price other grocers were selling bananas at and either sell at the same price, or perhaps slightly less in an attempt to get more sales. Or a higher price for a better quality product. 80.0.108.118 (talk) 00:24, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

The picture isn't quite as simple. You could even have 3 or 4 different prices. The "executive bananas" - hand selected for quality, size and appearance; the exclusive bananas not everyone can afford. The "quality bananas" - the ones you know and love. The "family bananas" - buying in bulk won't make you go broke. The "great bargain bananas" - lowest price around. The funny thing is that they could all be the same bananas, as long as your customers think they are different. Product differentiation Why wouldn't you sell them all at the same price? You might not find enough people who're willing to pay the higher price, but some will. By convincing the buyers there's a difference you can sell to each group at the maximum price they are willing to shovel out. 76.111.32.200 (talk) 20:02, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
I'm with the multi-pricing and competitive comparison mostly. It also depends on your market and demand, and we could be talking niche market here – will you sell bananas in an up-market district where people are willing and expect to pay more (and would have to given your increased overheads in that location) or in a more general location where price scaling applies? Some people believe the price should be the same for everyone, so perceived product differential is important. And if you sell bananas next to a discount chain supermarket, it's important there, too. Julia Rossi (talk) 00:14, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
See Price discrimination for more. Zain Ebrahim (talk) 00:43, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Bob, in Economics, the Supply and demand model is an economic model which is primarily used to explain economic theories and other economic phenomena. For example, it would help an economist predict the impact of a rent ceiling or an agricultural subsidy.
In business, a retailer (or a guy who sells bananas) would price his offering based on some pricing strategy such as Cost-plus pricing. Zain Ebrahim (talk) 00:43, 4 June 2008 (UTC)


[edit] June 3

[edit] Median population line(s) for Britain

Where would the west-east line lie that has 50% of the population to the north of it, and 50% to the south? And similarly for westerners and easterners. 80.0.108.118 (talk) 00:12, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

According to this source it says Appleby Parva in Leicestershire is the center of population for Britain. In other words, 50% live north, 50% live south, 50% live east and 50% live west. AlexiusHoratius (talk) 01:12, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
The centre of population isn't necessarily the same thing as saying 50% of people live either direction north/south and east/west (as far as I can determine). It takes distance into account, so it is actually the geographical point nearest to all the inhabitants of Britain, on average. Or in other words, if everyone in Britain weighed the same, then the point of balance would be around Appleby Parva. But because Britain is relatively small and densely populated, I think one could probably approximate it pretty well. Rockpocket 01:35, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
It depends on how you define "Britain". Do you mean Great Britain or the United Kingdom (including Northern Ireland)? If you mean just Great Britain, then the north-south median line would be around 52°20' N, to the south of the southern border of the West Midlands metropolitan county. If you are including Northern Ireland, then the line moves a few miles further north to take in the southern fringes of the West Midlands metropolitan county. (This is based on the data at Citypopulation.de .) In either case, the line is more than 15 miles south of Appleby Parva. This is probably because Appleby Parva lies the smallest mean distance from the inhabitants of the UK. While the population of the UK north of Appleby Parva is not quite as large as the population south, the mean distances per person are greater due to the lower population density. This pushes the center of population north of the median north-south line. Because there is less of an east-west skew to the UK population, I would expect that the east-west median line (running north-south through the UK) would be fairly close to Appleby Parva. (While the largest population center, London and the South East, is to the east of Appleby Parva, most other population centers are to the west: the West Midlands, Greater Manchester, Merseyside, most of West Yorkshire, and all of Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland. Unfortunately, I don't have time to perform the calculations to confirm this.) Marco polo (talk) 20:25, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm most interested in the mainland - England, Scotland, and Wales. I'm not certain if the centre of population mass would be the same as the median line or point, in the same way that the arithmetic average is usually not the same as the median average. 80.0.110.206 (talk) 20:49, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

They would not be the same, because a person at a greater distance would shift the center of population further than a person at a smaller distance, since the center of population is the point from which the mean distance for all persons is minimized. The way in which this works mathematically is analogous to the way in which a lever works physically. Marco polo (talk) 00:51, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Pledge of Allegiance

Do American children have to swear the Pledge of Allegiance every day in school, or is it only done very rarely? Isnt it inconsistent with the freedom that Americans go on about a lot? 80.0.108.118 (talk) 00:31, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

When I was in elementary school we did it every day. As for freedom, well, it's been a controversy for awhile (see Pledge of Allegiance criticism), especially the question of the non-religious having to swear that the USA is "one nation, before God", and whether they can opt out of the Pledge without it being socially ostracizing or facing formal punishment. I'm fairly sure they're not allowed to do formal punishment anymore for people who want to quietly opt out. In my day, at some point I stopped saying much of it that I didn't agree with, as I got older (I have never been religious, though it wasn't clear to me that this was exceptional until I got to a certain age). I doubt anybody noticed; when you do something like that every day it becomes rote, you stop paying attention. It was years before I even thought about what the words actually meant (the idea of an indivisible republic is a little abstract for a 6 year old).
As for whether it is inconsistent with freedom—Americans talk about freedom a lot but what they generally mean by that is not very well articulated and thought out. Much of our visions of what it means to be "free" come from WWII-era/Cold War era propaganda about Nazis and Soviets and gosh-isn't-it-great-we-don't-have-the-terrors-here. But of course the US has had many, many periods in which people who said things that weren't considered kosher (of all political points of view; right and left alike) were immediately forced out of public office, out of jobs, out of civic society. No, they weren't killed, except in rare cases, but that's just it—for most Americans, the question of what freedom is, is anything less than murder by the state. Which, when you think about it, is something of a rather low bar to set. Anyway. I digress. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 00:47, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Our school says it everyday. Just remember we aren't actually forced to say it; its not like we would get into any trouble if we didn't and if the teacher were to yell at a student for not saying it the teacher could get into trouble with the parent. I live in a rural area so everybody in my school says it without compaint; it is patriotism. If the student just were to skip saying God there would be no problems. All the problems are just sparked by some atheist that just can't let things be. - MOFILA —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.119.61.7 (talk) 01:15, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Or, conversely, all the problems were sparked by some zealous anti-Communists who thought that having school kids drone on "under God" would somehow make the country better. The Pledge lacked "under God" for most of its existence; the phrase was only added in 1954, at the height of McCarthyism. It's not exactly a neutral sentiment. Personally I think the entire pledge is dubious—it is Orwellian to say the least. Blind patriotism is not something to be celebrated, in my opinion—if patriotism it be, make it committed, honest, heartfelt, not rote, routine, and uncritical. That's bureaucracy, not patriotism. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 01:42, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
One of the jobs of the school under public education is to create good citizens. You can't expect little kids to be able to deal with the ins and outs of politics. Abe Lincoln was honest, and so was George Washington. Don't point out that in saying that you imply that all the others were maybe not so much. Let the little kids feel good about their country and about their piddling participation in its political life. The pledge was just something to be recited, like the intros to the Superman TV show and the Lone Ranger, and we got the words wrong, anyhow. It marked the opening of the school day, like a flag-raising ceremony. That's what it was, a ceremony, and not a contract between the state and its children. Sure, it seems like forced indoctrination, but a child can't be held to a promise he doesn't understand, and nobody expects him to follow through. I think that in my case the whole business served to alert me to the dangers of propaganda. As for freedom, the freedom to talk about the pledge of allegiance any way I want is enough for me. --Milkbreath (talk) 13:08, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
"A thundering horse with the speed of light, under God, a cloud of dust, and a hearty 'Hi-yo, Silver' …" Deor (talk) 18:29, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
No patriot would just let things be when he saw the government undermining his country's highest principles. --Sean 14:00, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Yeah, up to a point. The question is what would it take to make you get Old Bessie down from over the fireplace and head for the village green? We hardly feel the death of a thousand cuts after the first few hundred, but we can still scream anyway. --Milkbreath (talk) 18:35, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

By the time I was in high school, too many years ago, I think the pledge was read over the intercom about once a week or so. Nobody cared if you recited along or not. In fact, at that age, most kids (including myself) were too "cool" to be caught saying the pledge. The few kids who proudly pledged out loud were in fact the maverick minority. The silent ones were going along with the crowd, as high school kids are wont to do. —Kevin Myers 14:14, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Comparative cost of American NHS and space exploration

How much would the cost of providing an American health service like that of the NHS in the UK cost, compared to the cost of space race / space explortation. Would it be more, or less? Half as much? Twice as much? 80.2.202.232 (talk) 00:40, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

There are a wide variety of possible space exploration and universal health care programs, but for comparison the Space Shuttle program will end up costing $173 billion (2004 dollars) to fly until 2010, over the lifetime of the program, while providing full coverage for America's uninsured would cost an estimated $34–$69 billion (2001 dollars) per year. Maybe your sister Nell can help with the math.—eric 01:26, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
(edit conflict)Some extremely quick and rough estimates:
The article on National Health Service (England) notes that the Department of Health has a budget of about £100 billion, "most" of which is spent on NHS. So let's assume about £85 billion (about $165 billion). This only covers health care for England, which has a population of about 50 million, about one sixth of that of the US. Multiply by six, and wha-la! a budget of just under $1 trillion. By comparison, NASA has an annual budget of about 17.3 billion, about 1/60th of that. But again, these are extremely rough estimates. --YbborTalk 01:34, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
(ec twice!!) According to the NHS article, the 2008-9 budget is £91.7 billion and "serves" a population of 50.8 million people (£1805/per person or approx $3540). Scaling up to the USA's population of 304 million would suggest a total budget of a little over $1 trillion. That is a very simplistic calculation, but it is more than 60 times NASA's $17.3 billion budget for 2008. Astronaut (talk) 01:35, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Just a note on the apparent conflict of numbers, I imagine much of the conflict between myself/Astronaut and Eric, is that when looking at the budget for NHS, we're taking into account the total cost of health care, while he's taking into account the additional cost from what we already spend. In terms of the space budget, we're each looking at a fiscal year, while he's looking at the life of a single (very expensive) program. --YbborTalk 01:39, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Perhaps the OP was thinking that if money hadn't been "wasted" on space exploration, then the US could have afforded to set up an American NHS. In fact I think space exploration is pretty good value, and scrapping that avenue of research and exploration would not yield the benefits that it's critics would imagine, whilst (funnily enough) four years of war in Iraq have cost the US economy around $3 trillion.
I also think both mine and Ybbor's estimates are probably on the low side because American health care is generally recognised to be the most expensive in the world.
Astronaut (talk) 01:53, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Yes, I was thinking of that. I was also thinking that the US might save a bit from economies of scale, but I think those benefits start maxing out once you've corsssed well into the tens of millions. In fact since the population density of England (976/sq mile) is far higher than that of the US (80/sq mile), the cost even for identical care would likely be far hihger (since you'd need more local offices to reach the same number of people) --YbborTalk 02:06, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Right Ybbor, the shuttle cost i gave was for development, hardware, and thirty years of missions, while the cost of insuring the uninsured is in America is nowhere near what the cost of a program like NHS would be.—eric 02:00, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
The question of best utilization of government spending is a difficult one. Should we scrap funding of national-parks and state-provided libraries etc in favour of more on healthcare and social-welfare? The US spends a huge amount per-person on healthcare, and the UK public system is far from a shining example of how to provide publically provided healthcare. You have to look further a-field for a more intelligent hybrid of private and public provision. I can't remember the country but it is Sri Lanka or somewhere - one of the smaller nations in the far-east that has the system that many consider to be the best. The space-program seems to be the first thing people want to drop, because they can't tie the spending back to something that benefits the citizens that pay for it. That's a pity because the space-program is hugely important and one of the greatest things that the US does for mankind the world over. 194.221.133.226 (talk) 09:56, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
"the UK public system is far from a shining example of how to provide publically provided healthcare." Could you be more specific about this and give the evidence your beliefs are based on please? While the public health care in France is said to be better when international surveys are done, it is also more expensive. 80.2.204.80 (talk) 14:39, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Question asked, general estimates given. This thread is pretty much done. Remember, Wikipedia is not a soapbox.--YbborTalk 18:09, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Somebody above referred to the "extra cost of providing full healthcare", but that's not actually the case. As you can see above you could probably pay for full healthcare with a total expenditure of about $1 trillion. But right now the US spends more than $2 trillion on healthcare. US healthcare is by far the most expensive in the world. You could provide full healthcare, at the same level as the UK now does, and halve the total US spending on healthcare! How can that happen? Partly it's because the UK health system has fewer resources per person - a UK patient will typically get longer wait times than a US resident (those who can afford it) but a typical US private healthcare organization will also spend 20-30% of its income on non-healthcare related matters. That doesn't mean hospital administration, it means advertizing, legal fees, dividends to shareholders, bonusses to CEOs etc. A typical government healthcare organization spends 1-3% on non-healthcare expenditure. DJ Clayworth (talk) 18:44, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Who owns the copyright to the Gospel song "I'm Going Up Yonder" from 1976?

I am looking to verify the who the copyright owner is to a gospel song from 1975 or 1976 titled "I'm Going Up Yonder". It is not in the Copyright Office online records (nothing before 1978 is listed), and I have done much random internet research. Please help!

Thank you, FierySarai —Preceding unsigned comment added by FierySarai (talk • contribs) 02:52, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

You will need to ask the publisher.--Shantavira|feed me 06:05, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Becoming a full-time writer

Hello, fellow Wikipedians.

I am heavily considering becoming a full-time writer, in either Journalism or Fiction. I'm not a Stephen King-style hopeful. I just want to pay the rent, lights, and heat doing what I like. Pompous incarnate, but I'm good at it.

However, I have found the writing employment arena a particularly ultra-competitive, cutthroat business.

I am very close to completing a BS (both meanings applied) degree in Spanish, with a 3.97 GPA. However, the scholarship paying my college expenses ends next semester.

So, here is where I am at:

1) Should I finish the BS degree and continue, or

2) should I just go down to the mass-employment office (Manpower, or etc.) and get a job that will only be 4-6 hours a day (ex. paralegal's assistant) and start writing wholesale during my free time?

3) Is there a well-known publication that accepts 2 - 10 pages of writing at a time from unknown authors? I'm a yog's law-er; I won't pay. Currently, simple exposure would be enough.

Also,

Submitting a query letter today resembles spitting into the ocean. I have contemplated the idea of simply printing a page saying (90-font, bold, center page): "IT'S GOOD. READ IT." Maybe a little aggressive, but I think maybe that will maybe save my packages from rotting in a slush pile with a form letter six - eight weeks later. Most agents and publishing agencies (at least, the ones I have contacted) don't even open the package unless they recognize the sender's name.

Don't tell me about Writer's Market 2008...almost useless in my experience, all the minor presses actually cost the author money, and all the major presses only take submissions from agents, which, as I said, only open packages from previous clients.

I, also, since I am working part-time, attending school, and studying often, I am hard-pressed to find time to write. I really am (no offense to anyone here) expending writing time NOW by writing the previous reference desk query. However, I think the answers could be useful, so it's not wasted time.

Any other advice/insight regarding related topics is also appreciated.

Thanks, --193.147.81.126 (talk) 12:42, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

(Michael Alan Anthony, Middle Tennessee State University, Murfreesboro, Tennessee) [Feel free to remove if violates WP policy]

In my opinion, the whole world is a slushpile to be lost in, whether you're a writer or not, so go for it. Have you looked into ways to write for internet sites? Wrad (talk) 14:41, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
If journalism is an idea, you might consider interning/working for a periodical. You're going to be doing a lot OTHER THAN writing in the early days of such a career but you'll see how it works from the inside, and be making connections that will be invaluable when you need to know "who do I need to get to read this to get it published?" You're probably going to have to start from the bottom, I'm afraid, but if you're any good and have any drive you'll probably separate yourself from the pack pretty quickly (in my experience). --98.217.8.46 (talk) 15:12, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Speaking as a writer, the phrase "don't give up your daytime job" springs to mind. There are a couple of things to consider, which aren't apparent from your question. Do you have any family you're responsible for? How old are you? It's one thing to take a leap of faith like this when you're, say, 25, and another when you're older and have two kids to look after, for example. And yeah, it can be hard to make a living as a freelancer, which is what you can count on being. The good news is that when it comes to periodical publications, editors are always looking for good contributors. And by "good" I don't mean "can write well" and "knows his subject matter and does his research" (although these are definitely factors as well), but people who can write to spec, keep the length of the piece within the agreed-on range and, most importantly, stick to their deadlines. That's a key thing. I'd say that generally speaking, an average writer who always does his work on time is going to have a better career than a good writer who's late and unreliable. When it comes to magazines -- let alone newspapers -- the deadline is everything, and the contributor who understands and respects that will be much loved by his editor.
On a practical level, you might still want to get that BS out of the way, if you're almost done. I have no idea how much that'll set you back, but a degree is a degree. If you're a writer, nobody is going to care much about whether you have a degree or not, unless you're writing for a publication that has very, very high degree of specialization -- and even then it's not that likely. But there's nothing wrong with covering your ass, just in case your writing career doesn't work out, either because you're unlucky, or perhaps because you find that it's just not something you enjoy after all, or something else. If that happens, at least you'll have the degree to fall back on.
If you want to write books, man, that's gonna be hard going. Getting published is much harder than it is in the periodicals, and even if you do get published, you should really bear in mind that chances are it's not going to support you -- I mean, you could luck out and churn out a best seller from the gate and be pretty much set for life, with a constant demand for your words from that point on, but, honestly, you you can't count on it. You might as well be buying lottery tickets.
Of course, these things aren't mutually exclusive. You can write articles on some days and work on a novel on others -- use the income from boring articles to pay for your way and spend your passion on the novel. Or get a part-time job, and spend three days of the week on that, and the rest on your writing. Another key thing is to sell yourself to every place you can think of, and keep it up. Send in ideas for articles you could write. Ask for writing assignments. Sooner or later, someone's going to bite. That's another thing about freelancing: it's possible to get to a point where they call you, but it's going to take a while. A lot of your time and energy (emotional and otherwise) is going to be spent on just hustling, and getting rejected can be harsh. Suck it up. Learn that they aren't rejecting you, they're rejecting your work. It's a bit of a paradox: you need to stomp on your ego and refrain from throwing hissy fits when that rejection comes (and it's harder than it sounds, when you've poured a lot of yourself into something) and simultaneously feed it by knowing that your words are worth the trouble.
Hope this is useful. Good luck. -- Captain Disdain (talk) 15:42, 3 June 2008 (UTC)


Re your "Also". I'd recommend you go read all Miss Snark's archives, followed by the Writer Beware pages. It will make a huge difference to your success and will in no way be wasted time. Miss Snark will tell you (with enjoyable wit) that 90-point font shortcuts almost guarantee you a rejection, while training yourself to write well almost guarantees your query letter will snag attention. Writer Beware will explain why (a) submiting to publishers who charge for the submission, and (b) writing for free does not only you but all other writers a disservice. Best luck, WikiJedits (talk) 18:00, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
By all means finish that degree. Try to stay away from student loans, though. It doesn't look as though your are going to head for high $$ reliable income. OR Starting off with repayments hanging over your head every month sucks. With a degree it's easier to get into language contracting like language lessons and translations. (Once your shoe's in no one gives a hoot about degrees anymore.) There are a couple of online sites for freelance jobs (e.g. [6]). Also get yourself a court license. (That's usually going to cost a bit, so it'll take a while to pay for itself. It gives a flexible option for reliable additional income, though.) None of those is likely to make you rich, but you can make enough to pay for food and rent. Expecting a writing career to pay for the essentials as a novice sounds a lot more like wishful thinking than a well planned career path. Even the best published of my author friends has an "ordinary job" to pay for the bills, health insurance and a retirement fund. See if you can find a part-time job that you can develop into a freelance/contracting career. That will offer you more flexible work arrangements to take time off for writing. Working as a temp usually doesn't pay enough to let you save up for an extended hiatus. (Notwithstanding the fact that a film producer acquaintance of mine manges to do so.) If you build some experience now while you're studying doing a part-time job that is also offered as a contract position, you'll have it easier contracting after you graduate. {Building experience in burger flipping is not likely to get you very far, so chose your jobs carefully.) As you've found, a novel takes a while to finish and longer to get published. For a "new author" no publisher is going to shovel out tons of money upfront. If you're lucky you can get a good contract based on volume with a small first edition. (Try to befriend a lawyer. Having someone look over contracts is highly recommended. Expect that you'll get cheated a couple of times.) It's a good idea to start with a small local publisher, the big ones are usually flooded with hopefuls. I don't know enough about self-publishing to say if it's a viable option. Maybe someone else who knows can comment. Since there are more people with journalism degrees knocking on the doors of magazines and newspapers, they've become a lot more picky on the subject of certificates. You'll probably have to do some/ a lot of "pro bono" writing, just to build a resume. Look around for small publications like your neighborhood society's monthly, the homeowners' association circular, in-company publications and union newsletter. Offer to write a small column or a tale in episodes for them, either free or for a minimal fee (chicken sandwich). Although this was frowned at above, that's how a lot of us get started. That way you'll build a portfolio and "published works" record. You don't need to pour your heart into it, but make it good enough so that someone who reads it is likely to want to read more. (NB. Keep any positive letters or written comments you receive!!!) You have unique opportunities as a student that are no longer going to be available to you once you leave. Have a look if you can audit a couple of classes in business administration. Once you've left college you'll have to pay through your nose to get basic business skills. There may also be a financial advisor on campus. Book a session and have a chat about ideas. Unfortunately one rarely appreciates just how much stuff is available for free to students until after graduation. You can always write later, spend your time getting ready for it now. Becoming a writer is a rocky road, so count on your feet starting to hurt. Good luck.76.111.32.200 (talk) 19:12, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Hello, Michael Alan Anthony. I am a magazine editor, so this advice/insight is from that point of view.
(1) Degrees have no impact on whether a freelancer[7] gets an assignment or not. They may affect payscale/getting hired by a big corporation, due to HR rubrics. Internships usually go to journalism students.
(2) No opinion.
(3) Our magazine looks at queries[8], rarely at finished articles, because we prefer to assign the specific story we want. Most larger mags are the same; smaller pubs may be less choosy, but will also pay less well. If you are talking about fiction, however, I can't advise anything. We don't publish it.
(Also) I suspect you are now talking about fiction, but if you queried me for an article with such an approach I would turn you down, because I would think you unprofessional. I suggest you steer clear of anyone who wants you to pay to be published (Vanity press); publishers should pay you if your work is well-written and saleable. Using your time to good advantage to write as much as possible is an excellent idea, kudos to you for working hard at it.
(Any other advice/insight) I understand you may not have felt it important to proof your post here, but because it contained one word use issue, two capitalization errors, one spelling mistake and one grammatical mistake in just the first paragraph, please make sure you carefully check all the query letters you send out. One error should not be a problem, but so many will be an issue.
Bottom line though: write well, be professional, and you can have a career as a writer. I know many people who make a decent living at it. Good luck! 70.48.192.132 (talk) 01:27, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Hi Michael, I dont know if you are a regular here but I would like to say you have received some great advice from some very solid professionals. I write for several magazines and would just like to reiterate: spelling, grammar, deadline. Anything that makes your editor's job easier will endear you to them. Mhicaoidh (talk) 10:31, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Errors corrected. I would consider the previous post as a ‘casual’ writing sample, as opposed to professional. That meant no fine-tooth grammar comb, no pocketed 1" margin ruler. My writing acquaintances (a loose term) would think they had entered the Twilight Zone after witnessing the aforementioned numerous errors. I am usually such a grammatical/syntactic curmudgeon, I ensure two spaces follow all periods. Whoever derides descriptive grammar, Elements of Style, or The Chicago Manual of Style has not experienced the dubious pleasure of correcting particularly atrocious ENGL 1010 essays I affectionately label "linguistic Tossed Salad." However, I now realize even Wikipedia posts could be considered "samples." [Yes, I know the periods are inside the quotation marks; feel free to pose the "inside" or "outside" argument. It's simply my personal preference.]
Thanks to all, I find the advice invaluable. --MAA
I've always liked this advice to budding writers: "Write something, even if it's just a suicide note".  :) -- JackofOz (talk) 23:20, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Fortunately, I don't have that particular problem. I do have the "editor's psychosis" problem many people speak of. Goes through about twenty drafts (sometimes) before someone reads it. --MAA --193.147.81.126 (talk) 15:58, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Psychosis? What psychosis? That's perfectly normal behaviour ........... isn't it? -- JackofOz (talk) 21:26, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Hopefully you (and Jackoz) put on the brakes before becoming like the writer who would write, tear it up, then start again from scratch every time he sat down. Anyone know who that was? He either loved his typewriter or loved purgatory. I think he was published, maybe pulp fiction days, but don't recall the name. Julia Rossi (talk) 02:54, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Well, (we're drifting slightly off-topic) I use Microsoft Word's spelling/grammar check, skipping the particuarly pedantic suggestions. I manufacture the appropriate, subject-related style (ex. Ellis vs. Tolkien). Highlighting indicates the problem areas, usually [verb + prep.] combinations and wordiness. I begin the figurative semi-auto-masochistic literary slicing and dicing. My daily hypergrafic neuroticism level determintes the time expended. Spent too much time on this paragraph as it is.
Thanks to all again for the advice. --MAA --193.147.81.126 (talk) 13:05, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Outlaws of Wild West

Hi to all you guys 'n girls out there. My question is: I've searched all of the pages about famous outlaw's of the wild-west era for one thing:

Once I read (i think it was even in wikipedia!) about an Outlaw who was riding around with another one, when they got spotted by some Gunmen who noticed their ID and hanged them upside down from a tree. The Guys then shot one of the outlaws, killing him, the other one was missed - the Gunmen even hit the rope and the Outlaw dropped to the ground, where he eventually grabbed a gun (or got the chance to grab HIS gun/guns) and shot the few Gunmen (I guess they were vigilantes).

  • Correction*: The "Guys" were (90% possibility) Vigilantes, also I can remember it may have happened near the Border of southern States of the USA, or when the two Outlaws went riding towards the Border.

But I can't find the exact article in Wiki, so could someone who REALLY is a crack in these fascinating thing about american history, help me?

P.S.: With "ID" I mean their "IDENTITIES", or "FACES" or "LOOKS" - how they LOOKED like, as you may have heard or read of someone saying "You look familiar, just like a guy I'm searching for!" - maybe really from mughots or short descriptions; not their "PASSPORTS" or something like that (If thats what English-speaking People call an ID; sorry for that mistake, my English is not so well, aber in DEUTSCH ist es einfacher zu erklären.). May be possible that the Article was a FAKE and has been deleted, it was over 1 and 1/2 Years since I read it once.


Thx alot!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.177.218.12 (talk) 15:17, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Sounds more like a Hollywood plot than a real gunfight. I watched a documentary recently that claimed that, in fact, most gunmen were killed by being shot in the back rather than in gun duels. Rather unromantic. Rmhermen (talk) 16:09, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
MythBusters (season 4)#Gunslinger Myths disproved the idea that you can sever a rope with a single bullet (unless you're the Man with No Name of course). Clarityfiend (talk) 16:24, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
The Sharon Stone character in "The Quick and the Dead" has a flashback scene that involves taking a shot at a rope in a similar situation... (more detail would be a *spoiler*), FWIW. -- Deborahjay (talk) 17:40, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
There was no Department of Homeland Security in the Wild West, so "they got spotted by some Gunmen who noticed their ID" makes no sense. Edison (talk) 06:08, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
It's likely the ahem, lawmen might claim they ID'd (pr: aah-deed) them from mugshots on a wanted poster as an excuse to plug'em *sorry* er, string'em up, but I'm writing fiction now... whatever really happened, 84.177, it sounds pretty exciting. Hope you find the source, Julia Rossi (talk) 11:17, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
In MythBusters episode 65 [9] they found that shooting a rope with a pistol does not cause it to part. It would take multiple carefully aimed shots at close range from a rifle. The myth, if not the rope, was BUSTED. Edison (talk) 14:16, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Confederate political parties

Were there any formally-organized political parties in the Confederate States of America? Did Southern Democrats continue to refer to themselves as Democrats, or were there no formal parties? Corvus cornixtalk 18:06, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

While I have no expertise in this topic, these guys have an interesting discussion. It seems as though the confederacy was basically a one-party state for its lifespan. They also discuss some possible issues that might create a partisan divide. Generally though, the south was too worried about fighting a war to get most of its offices filled, let alone organize sophisticated parties to fight elections.
See previous discussion: CSA a one-party state?. --—— Gadget850 (Ed) talk - 09:39, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Monarchy of the UK

If a situation arose where a baby was first in line to in inherit the throne, i.e. William died right after having a son, how would the baby give royal assent or perform the state opening of parliament? I know Edward VI did it through a council of regency --Hadseys 19:10, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

The next person in line for the throne and qualified to occupy it would serve as regent until the monarch came of age. See Regency Acts. Marco polo (talk) 19:28, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
That's the current position, but a Regent isn't always the next heir to the throne. The Regency Act 1953 provided for the Duke of Edinburgh to become Regent if the Queen died. Xn4 23:58, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Trying to locate color image of plague doctor

I've found a nice color picture of "Doctor Schnabel von Rom", the plague doctor. The problem is, the only place I found it was on a MySpace page: link. (Update, I found it here too) It is low res. I'd love to track down a larger color image. I don't mind scanning it from a book if someone has a reference. (The image is hundreds of years old, there is no copyright issue). Thoughts? --98.217.8.46 (talk) 19:42, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

It looks like an etching. There probably aren't legit color versions. Corvus cornixtalk 21:15, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
(after ec)Yeah, as far as I know it's an etching or a woodcut. There will be no colour version of that particular image. Though it may be possible to find a later coloured interpretation of the image given it's notoriety, perhaps oil-painted. Wouldn't know where to start looking for that though, I'm afraid. And copyright may be dodgy if at all recent. Fribbler (talk) 23:09, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
It is a copper plate etching from 1656, presumably by an artist named Paulus Fürst (1608 - 1666) of Nuremberg after J. Columbina. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 23:13, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Does it qualify if you photoshop areas of plain colour undersorry, hit the wrong button behind the etching lines? Julia Rossi (talk) 23:44, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
The original is well out of copyright, so I guess as long as you released the photoshopped image under an acceptable licence then it's god to go! Nes pas? :~) Fribbler (talk) 23:47, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Well, there seem to be a variety of copies of the same basic image, some in color, some not. Yes, I know one of them is something like an etching (I'm not sure it is, it looks just as likely to be a bad reproduction of something with more detail—the Wikipedia one practically looks photocopied!), but it was not uncommon in woodcuts of that time for them to be hand colored (they weren't exactly large print runs), water colors over the original etching, etc. No, I don't want to color it in myself (and I would need a copy of higher quality anyway to do that, the Wikipedia one is awful). --98.217.8.46 (talk) 00:46, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
The modern decorative print trade has colored more etchings and engravings in the past fifty years than were ever originally colored. We have many illustrations at Wikipedia where the tinting is modern.--Wetman (talk) 04:01, 4 June 2008 (UTC)


[edit] June 4

[edit] WWII STATISTICS

I understand there was a large number of Christians killed by the Germans in Europe that were Jewish sympathizers. Do you know the numbers? I didn't see any posted for this category.74.237.246.9 (talk) 03:45, 4 June 2008 (UTC)jr

While our Holocaust article does not have a section on Christians, it does note that 2,500 - 5,000 Jehovah's Witnesses were killed for refusing to swear allegiance and that some Catholic priest were labeled homosexuals so they could be confined. Some other Christians were classed as political activists and detained. Dietrich Bonhoeffer is a famous example of a Christian killed by the Germans. Our article notes that Jews made up only 6 million of the 9 to 11 million killed. Rmhermen (talk) 15:28, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Kristian?

In the article "list of Swedish monarchs", there is the following line: "1457-1464 : Christian I of Sweden (Kristian I)". However, the article Christian I of Sweden makes no mention of "Kristian". What is "Kristian" — is it the Swedish spelling of the name, the Danish spelling of the name, the Norwegian spelling of the name, some other alternate spelling of the name (such as an archaic historical spelling), or a mistake?

Also, what is the name "Kristian" in general? I'm guessing it's the standard spelling of "Christian" in some particular languages? Which languages?

—Lowellian (reply) 04:34, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Judging from the interlanguage links to Scandinavian wikipedias: "Kristian" is used in Swedish and Nynorsk. Christian is used in Danish and Bokmål. Icelandic uses Kristján. I found no corresponding pages on the Faroese Wikipedia. (Finnish, not a Scandinavian language, also spells them Kristian). For other languages that spell the name with an initial letter "K", the article on Christian (name) also gives Kristián in Czech, Krystian in Polish, and Keresztély for the Danish kings in Hungarian. ---Sluzzelin talk 05:21, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Kristian is most common in Norwegian (both forms, both Bokmål and Nynorsk), but Christian is also frequently seen. As most (all?) kings with that name have been Danish, their names are usually written Christian in Norway as well. 129.240.49.10 (talk) 09:10, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
In this context, "Kristian" is simply the Swedish spelling of his name.[10] Just to complicate things a bit further, he was born in Germany but Denmark was the leading nation in the Kalmar Union between Denmark, Norway and Sweden. In both Danish and German, his name is spelled "Christian". In Danish, he occasionally also referred to as "Christiern".[11] 83.89.43.14 (talk) 22:43, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] History of South America from 1900-1950

Where can I find information on the history of South America from 1900-1950--Goon Noot (talk) 09:26, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Try here, here, and Cat:History_of_South_America. Fribbler (talk) 11:41, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

I have looked at those places but have not found what I was looking for. I'm looking for information on what was going on in South America during ww1.--Goon Noot (talk) 15:40, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Red=Stop Green=Go

When (and how?) did the Red=stop & Green=Go convention come about? Looking at Traffic lights suggests that it hails from something nautical, but what? -- SGBailey (talk) 09:29, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

See Right of way, which has a nice illustration of why ships would be allowed to go when they see a green light from the other ship -- Ferkelparade π 09:36, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Also see red, which calls attention to its association with blood and fire, and green which is related to the word "grow".--Shantavira|feed me 12:48, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Traffic lights for automotive use came about long after the railroads developed the "red-yellow-green" system. Red has meant stop as long as the ability to relate an action to a color has been around. There is a believe that this has to do with red being the color of blood - but who knows. It is just something embedded into the human DNA. As for the "go" color, the railroads originally used white. That was destined for failure. There are white lights all over that could be mistaken for a "go" light. Also, there is a case where the red lens fell out of a stop light and the driver thought it was white and drove at full speed into another train. So, the railroad adopted green for go because there was plenty of green lenses and it contrasted well with red. Why was there plenty of green lenses? They had been experimenting with green for "caution". So, once the caution light became the go light, they needed another caution color. Yellow was chosen. Well after the railroad had the red-yellow-green system, the first traffic lights were made. The first ones were red-green. Shortly afterwards, the red-yellow-green ones were adopted and, now, are standard. -- kainaw™ 13:17, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
One more important point is that colored lights as railway signals were originally only used at night (by day they used semaphores or similar devices) and consisted of a colored glass in front of an oil-lamp flame. (As that article shows, the two devices were normally combined into a single unit.) Later railway signals used colored glass in front of an incandescent light bulb, and so did traffic lights; it's only quite recently that LED signals, which are intrinsically colored, become available. What this meant that a signal color could only be adopted if a suitable color of glass existed. The color also had to be sufficiently distinct from similar colors, and it had to work with an oil flame (which ruled out any strongly blue color). So the use of red and green doesn't come from maritime tradition so much as from the absence of any other available color. There was a specific research project to develop a yellow glass suitable for signals at the time when the railways were realizing they had to abandon white. --Anonymous, 21:51 UTC, June 4, 2008.
There are two aspects to red. One is that it is a color which grabs human attention, universally. Not all cultures have the same recognized number of distinct colors, but if they have words for colors other than "dark" and "light", then the next one is always red. I (and others) suspect this is the relevance of red to blood.
But the other aspect is cultural. It does not necessarily mean "stop"; it means "attention." For this reason it has long been used for street signs, in particular ones as important as "stop". But in other cultures it has different meanings as well—don't get too hung up on things like "green is related to the word grow", that's not the case in all languages. In China "red" has associations with good luck, marriages, summer, and happiness—very different than in the West.
Of course, in one way, the choice of Red and Green for the binary street lights is horrible—Red-green colorblindness means that some 10% of the population has to just remember the position of the lights because they look identical to them, which is quite a lot (if it was red and blue, there would be no problem, for example). --98.217.8.46 (talk) 15:58, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Red-green colorblindness doesn't work that way. Red and green are easily distinguishable from each other. My difficulty is distinguishing close-together shades of red and orange. Imagine an orange light gradually shifting toward red. The point at which it becomes hard to distinguish from a pure red light comes a little bit earlier for me than it does for other people. If traffic lights were red-orange-green, I'd probably be depending on their geometrical arrangement. --tcsetattr (talk / contribs) 20:50, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
There are different types of red-green colorblindness. Some people cannot tell them apart at all; this is not uncommon. Don't generalize your own experience for all others. I had a friend who could not tell red from green whatsoever. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 16:06, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

-- Thanks folk -- SGBailey (talk) 16:44, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Seriously

Why is every country covered in counties, especially in seemingly uninhabited areas? This makes the world seem less natural. And could someone please tell me the furthest land point from any inhabited area (not including Antarctica)? Interactive Fiction Expert/Talk to me 11:03, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

The furthest land point from any inhabited area (not including Antarctica) would be the Arctic. 80.0.100.95 (talk) 00:55, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Well, they're not. Not every country has uninhabited areas, either. And doesn't the fact that countries exist make the world less natural, nevermind counties? What is "natural"? For the second question, does Extreme points of Earth help? Adam Bishop (talk) 11:54, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
ooch edit conflct but Adams right. Your first q cant be answered because it is inaccurate: not every country is covered in counties and your concern, "less natural", is so vague it can't be substantiated or easily answered. However even uninhabited areas are part of countries who do require that their regions need to be looked after and administered by local government even though they interpret that as meaning they should protect or exploit them.Your last question is interesting,but you arbitrarily exclude one continent. I would say north pole leaps to mind but you might not like that either; hopefully the answer you get will be more accurate , subtle and interesting than mine has been, or indeed your question allows. Mhicaoidh (talk) 12:18, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
The North Pole is not on land, though/ Adam Bishop (talk) 13:10, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Extreme points of the world#Remoteness might answer your second question. --Tagishsimon (talk) 12:55, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
It doesn't. Small islands don't count. Only the major landmasses - America, Australia, and "Eurafriasia" - count. Though it might be on an island (a relatively large one only). —Preceding unsigned comment added by IntfictExpert (talk • contribs) 13:13, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Well, if you are counting large islands, then you have to count the largest: Greenland. The furthest land point from any inhabited area on a large landmass other than Antarctica (if that accurately summarizes your criteria) would certainly be a point on the Greenland Ice Sheet in north-central Greenland. The exact location of the point would depend on whether you consider the scientific and military base of Nord, Greenland, to be "inhabited". Marco polo (talk) 14:13, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Good point Adam! And the OP has just wiped the place I live off the face of the earth so I guess I can't help here! Mhicaoidh (talk) 21:21, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Here in Ontario, the province is divided into different types of entities, essentially according to the population density. See List of Ontario counties. There are "single-tier municipalities", mostly called cities, such as Toronto; "regional municipalities" such as Niagara Region; "counties" such as Wellington County; and, in the sparsely populated parts of Northern Ontario, huge "districts" such as Kenora District. It's not all just counties. --Anonymous, 22:00 UTC, June 4, 2008.

There are no counties in Alaska or Louisiana. Corvus cornixtalk 23:10, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Luitpoldarena & Luitpoldhalle, Nuremberg

My query, posted on the Discussion page for Nuremberg, is about these two structures named for Luitpold, Prince Regent of Bavaria. -- Thanks, Deborahjay (talk) 11:25, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

There is a bit on them here, if that helps. And on the same page in the .de wikipedia. Fribbler (talk) 11:30, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] sales promotion

is there any relationship between ethical issues in sales promotion and consumer confidence in a product or service?

mohammed kamil farid —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.87.83.248 (talk) 14:35, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Hugo Chavez's image

Hi, I would like to know what Hugo Chavez's image is like to the people of Venezuela —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.152.221.179 (talk) 14:41, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Did you read Hugo Chávez and other relevant articles (such as Media representation of Hugo Chávez and Presidency of Hugo Chávez)? I think those should give you some idea of how he's seen by the citizens of Venezuela. -- Captain Disdain (talk) 15:03, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Operation Orchard

I was wondering if anyone could hazard a guess as to why the IDF risked sending in large numbers of men (4-8) and a number of aircraft including F16s and F15s undisclosed ELINT and tanker aircraft in Operation Orchard.

It seems clear that the mossad had a man on the inside that gave precise coordinates of the nuclear facility in Syria. With this information would it not have been safer to use cruise missiles to do the job instead of risking planes being shot down and having to have search and rescue teams in a hostile country. A spy satellite or the man on the ground could have given BDA.

The range was not that far in terms of the Tomahawk and a salvo of 10 or less could have destroyed the buildings causing the Syrians to panic and bulldoze the area?? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.17.35.174 (talk) 17:14, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Just a guess, but perhaps the Israelis wanted to show the Syrians that their airspace could be penetrated. This sends a strong signal to Syria and other countries in the region (I'm thinking specifically of Iran, which I believe has similar air defenses). GreatManTheory (talk) 17:26, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

I really don't think you could even come close to comparing the air defences of Syria with Iran. If Iran was as badly defended as Syria surely they would have been bombed by now? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.17.35.174 (talk) 17:57, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps I'm mistaken, but I remember hearing that the two countries had relatively similar air defense capabilities. Moreover, as far as I know Syria had what was considered fairly advanced air defenses, so it's nothing against Iran to compare the two. As for your contention that Iran would surely have been bombed, I believe that's the point--so easily defeating Syria's air defenses tells Iran that it is vulnerable to this sort of attack, hopefully (from Israel's point of view) dissuading Iran from engaging in anything that seriously rocks the boat. GreatManTheory (talk) 19:59, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
As far as I know, Israel has no Tomahawks. Only the US, the UK and Spain have some. And those last two have only 60. GoingOnTracks (talk) 06:41, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Court and Constitution

Is it possible to challenge a state constitution law as against the constitution of the US and ultimately overrule it? E.g. 26 states in the US. have outlawed marriage between a same-sex couple. Isn't it possible for a couple to go to the US supreme court and put charges against their own state's constitution because of that? If it is possible what prevents them to do that? Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nyeditor (talk • contribs) 20:22, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

To your initial question, it's entirely possible. The US Supreme Court can (and has) nullified portions of state laws and constitutions. However, the USSC does not hear initial cases, known as original jurisdiction, (so a couple can't just go to the USSC)* and is under no obligation to hear appeals that have reached their level -- so that's the prevention, such as it is. — Lomn 20:42, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
*Exceptions exist, but not that apply to this sort of example. See the article above for details. — Lomn 20:44, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

So in what way can an individual resist the tyranny of the state? I mean take for example Lawrence v. Texas, that was initiated by an average couple. So, why not such a scenario is probable in the case of same-sex marriage? Is it possible for a group of lawyers across the country to take the case to the US supreme court? Is this also considered original jurisdiction? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nyeditor (talk • contribs) 22:11, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

If I understand correctly, original jurisdiction means you can't take it straight to the supreme court. You have to initiate the suit in the proper jurisdiction (in this case, the state courts) before appealing your way to the SCOTUS. From our article: Currently, the only original jurisdiction cases commonly handled by the Supreme Court are disputes between two or more U.S. states. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 00:31, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Barry Goldwater's Eligibility For U.S. President.

To be eligible to serve as president of the U.S. you must be a natural born citizen or living at the time the constitution was adopted. Barry Goldwater was born in Phoenix, AZ 01-01-1909 and Arizona was not admitted to the union until 02-14-1912 so does that not prevent his serving as president???? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.242.73.38 (talk) 21:16, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

See[12] a NY Times articleand [13] a Washington Post article on this topic. In Goldwater's case, opinion was that being born in a territory which later became a state was good enough to be "natural born." The Puerto Rico Herald [14] considered whetner someone born there would be "natural born" enough to become U.S. President and says that perhaps the "statutory American citizenship" Puerto Ricans gained in 1917 would make one eligible to be U.S President. The article considers other scenarios. Surely there has been a law review paper on this. As in December 2000, it could all boil down to what the Supreme Court thinks, and we all know how that can work out. Edison (talk) 21:54, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
There's no requirement that the territory later become a state. John McCain was born in the Panama Canal Zone, then a U.S. territory, but now part of Panama, never a state. Legal opinion is near unanimous that he qualifies for the presidency. --D. Monack | talk 22:09, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Legal opinion of five members of the Supreme Court is all that is required, although I suppose the Senate could find someone ineligible despite the Supreme Court's findings. [15] is an article by John Dean who discusses a law review article on the topic. One interesting tidbit: a child of a foreign diplomat could be born in the U.S. but not be eligile to become President. Edison (talk) 22:15, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
And likewise being born outside the US is not an exclusion. Even If McCain had been born in territory completely unrelated to the US, to US parents, he would still be natural born. See previous discussion of this. DJ Clayworth (talk) 17:32, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Also, being alive at the adoption of the Constitution has nothing to do with it and doesn't exempt you from the "natural born citizen" requirement. There is some speculation that that clause was included to specifically prevent Alexander Hamilton from becoming president. --D. Monack | talk 22:21, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
If you are born outside the U.S. to American parents, you are a citizen. United_States_nationality_law#Acquisition_of_citizenship --Nricardo (talk) 03:27, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Yes, but that's where the question as to the precise meaning of "natural-born" comes into play. — Lomn 03:49, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
I'm not sure why it should. Was jus sanguines considered the law of the land at the writing of the Constitution? --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 14:26, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Inventor of Lie Detector -- atomic bomb security?

On p. 107 of Now it can be told, a history of the Manhattan Project written by General Leslie R. Groves (military head of the project), it says:

Early in 1946 an additional safeguard was adopted (at Y-12, Oak Ridge)—a lie detector. It was used chiefly on people who had access to the final product (enriched uranium) chemistry building, to make sure no one had taken, or know anyone who had taken, material from the plant. The first tests were carried out under the supervision of the inventor of the instrument, and one of his assistants was retained at Y-12 to conduct tests whenever necessary.

Does he mean William Moulton Marston? Any way to tell? Any guess as to the name of the assistant? (The book doesn't say, and has no real footnotes or anything.) --98.217.8.46 (talk) 23:55, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

According to The Polygraph and Lie Detection the Oak Ridge tests were carried out by Leonard Keeler. Another source is In Search of the Magic Lasso: The Truth About the Polygraph, which says "Following the Manhattan Project, the AEC actually began a polygraph screening program at Oak Ridge in the 1940’s. It was initiated by Leonard Keeler, who was one of the original creators of the physical machine we call the polygraph today, and at the time the foremost polygraph tester." Gandalf61 (talk) 13:54, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Excellent, thank you very much, precisely what I wanted to know. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 14:08, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] June 5

[edit] Animal peace

Recently, I saw this on CNN. It was a video of a man walking with his dog, cat, and rat somewhere in Santa Barbara, California. On the video, I saw other people taking videos of everything. I had a feeling they'd be posted on YouTube. I hit the jackpot. In one video, there were two rats with the cat and dog. But on the rest of the other videos, there was only one rat. I'm confused. Are there two rats or just one? What kind of dog is the dog? Do all the animals have names?72.229.139.13 (talk) 02:40, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure you're referring to this video. The dog looks like some sort of Rottweiler mix. The face isn't really wide enough to be a full Rottie. Dismas|(talk) 03:01, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Could you maybe post a link to the video with the two rats? Then it might be easier to see what's really going on here. Maybe you could email the poster of this video and ask them what they really saw that fateful day. --Richardrj talk email 07:34, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

I can't remember the video's title or the poster off the top of my head. How could that day be fateful? No one died.72.229.139.13 (talk) 22:52, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

True, 72.229! "Fateful" often does have bad notes, but it can be used like "fated" as destined to happen, turn out, or act in a particular way. This time, you happening to catch the unusual peace footage at that time. : ) Julia Rossi (talk) 02:41, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

I found the poster. He/she goes by the name wanderingwilson. In that poster's video, I saw two rats, a cat, and a dog.72.229.139.13 (talk) 23:17, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Bernau, Germany

A photograph dated 1933 shows Adolf Hitler visiting a formation of uniformed SA holding swastika flags, at "...der Reichsführerschule in Bernau." How might I determine which Bernau this is? A look at their pages here and in the German Wikipedia (a language I don't read) hasn't yielded anything informative. -- Thanks, Deborahjay (talk) 07:04, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Since Bernau bei Berlin is the largest of the towns listed in the disambig page, and since it's close to Berlin, I would have thought it's likely to be that one. --Richardrj talk email 07:29, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
And in fact the German Wikipedia confirms this, see here. --Richardrj talk email 07:38, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
I took an overlook at "http://de.wikipedia.org" (what good to BE a German!) and you're right. The "Reichsführerschule" (of the DAF) was located in Bernau so it is clear that Hitler was there. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.177.189.93 (talk) 16:57, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Witch trials in Poland

Hello! I am interested in witch trials, and have contributed to some articles in the subject myself. I think there should be a coverage of cases from alla European countries here on wikipedia. Now to the question. I am stuck now that I have arived to more "unusal" countries (= countries which are less translated into English). Three of those are in particular interest to me now, and I'll divide it into three sections and hope that I'm doing this right.

Does anyone here no anything about the witch trials in Poland? To feel a country have ben "covered", i think there should be about; the first case; the last case; the largest case; and the most well known and famous case. I hope there is someone here who knows and are willing to answer. I have heard about a case in 1775, 1793, and 1811. Does anyone know more about those? Hoping --Aciram (talk) 13:10, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Witch trials in Portugal

Portugal, is, if my information is correct, a country with very few witch trials. but I have heard about the few that did excist; a case in Lissabon 1599, where a groupdof women where burned at Rossi square; a case just a few years after; and one woman burned in Evora in 1626. This is very hard to find anything on, and I would be most grateful if anyone was willing to give me a bit of information about these three cases, or direct me to an English link about these cases. What were the names of the executed, what were the specific charges? I would, of course, also be grateful to know if they were more cases than this! Hopefully--Aciram (talk) 13:17, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Witch- and Vampire trials in Hungary

I have heard, that the witch trials in Hungary often included accusations about vampyrism. I do not know if this is true, but I must admit that sounds very intruiging! There seems to be some information about this on the net, but unfortunately, I cant' speak Hungarian. I have heard, that they were a witch craze in Hungray in 1738. Does anyone here know anything about the Hungarian witch trials? The first time, the last time, the largest trial, and if it was combined vampire trials? I would be most grateful for an answer! I can't ask for anyone to creat an article, of course, but I anyone would wish to do so, i would appreciate the smalest stub! Regards--Aciram (talk) 13:24, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

We have a stub on the Szeged witch trials which mentions vampirism. But see Witchcraft and Magic in Europe, Vol. 5: The Eighteenth and Nineteenth Centuries, at p. 161: "Hungary, moreover, had to contend with vampires, as is apparent from various vampire cases which occurred on the periphery of the kingdom in the first half of the eighteenth century." The citation for this is to Gábor Klaniczay. Xn4 23:30, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Thank you for your answer! I would like to know more about these vampire/witch trials. I can't ask for a description of a case, but perhaps someone can recomend an english speaking site on the net about this? It's hard to look if you have no specific words to google; for example names of the people involved, years and places. --Aciram (talk) 16:29, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Recruitment of executioners in the United States

I made a question on Talk:Capital punishment in the United States. How do federal and state governments in the United States recruit executioners for capital punishment? Are they recruited from prison officers? Do they receive special training? /Yvwv (talk) 13:40, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

aside from the controversy involving those who have taken the Hypocratic oath participating, I don't know anything about how they are choosen. From [16] here] I found a little detail: "Seventeen death penalty states require physician involvement and all practicing jurisdictions employ medical personnel...lethal injections are administered remotely..." Rmhermen (talk) 18:56, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] consequences of one party state.

over the year analyst have fear that Nigeria might become a one party state,what could be the consequences effect on the Nigeria comtemporary society? Riel. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.254.189.64 (talk) 13:51, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

If you phrased your question slightly less like it was direct from a homework/assignment you'd probably get a better response. Suffice to say consider the key words/phrases used in the question and focus on them. Nigeria itself isn't important because the overall themes would be expected to be the same regardless of the specific nation - though showing some understanding of historic political culture in Nigeria within your answer may help. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.221.133.226 (talk) 14:15, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Wikipedia articles to read: Nigeria (Nigeria article on Italian Wikipedia), Politics of Nigeria (English only) and Single-party state (English only). I disagree with 194.221.133.226 - I think the specifics of the Nigerian situation are going to have to be in your answer. Nigeria has had a lot of trouble getting democracy going and there have been corrupt and brutal regimes in recent memory; this probably affects (in both directions) how much people are willing to push for political changes and what kinds of compromises look good. Have a look at Ibrahim Babangida, Moshood Kashimawo Olawale Abiola, Sani Abacha and Olusegun Obasanjo as well as Human rights in Nigeria. WikiJedits (talk) 19:06, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Poem analysis?

Hello everyone. I asked this first at the Language desk and they told me to ask here: Would it be okay (and helpful to me :) if I put up a poem here for analysis? It's not homework or anything, I just want to know what it's about ^^. (If this is absolutely not the place for such a thing, please tell me where I can go to get some help!) Thanks in advance, Kreachure (talk) 21:48, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Is it possible you can post a web link to the poem? Inserting the text of the poem here might not be appropriate for a couple of reasons: copyright, and length. --Tagishsimon (talk) 22:33, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, the poem is short, but it's probably copyrighted (not sure really). After looking a while for the page I got it from, the page doesn't exist anymore. The only place I could find it is in (oh boy...) a Harry Potter message board. (Well, that was depressing!) If you find that less cumbersome than posting it here, then be my guest (otherwise if someone wants me to post the poem please tell me!) Anyways, will you help me out? Kreachure (talk) 22:53, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

The only poem I could find at the Harry Potter link is a short exerpt from Wordsworth's "The White Doe of Rylstone". I don't have access to the full poem, and don't know it well enough to comment further. ៛ Bielle (talk) 01:10, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
(ec) The title, Phoenixology (Phoenixologie), is from the third film in Cocteau's Orpheus trilogy, Testament of Orpheus, according to one Anne-Michèle Fortin. It refers to the poet's multiple resurrections in the story. She says "Cocteau calls phoenixology the science which allows him who controls it to die and return to life at will."
As for the poem, it's pretty arcane. It's also in English, which means it's been translated from French, so for my money all bets are off when it comes to interpreting it. I was unable to find it in French on the Web. A wild stab at it as it stands: The first stanza is a mish-mash of images and references, the tight-lipped dream life and the rest its conversion in death, the mirror image of life. The second stanza is weird. I think he was having a go at somebody he knew, some actress, I'll bet. The twelve young soldiers surely refer to something specific that I'm unaware of. I really like the last stanza. He is trapped within corporeal existence, choices matter, a refutation of MacBeth's depressing dusty death, a stony one of his desiring in Les Baux. I'd sure like to see the original. --Milkbreath (talk) 01:14, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
I think Milkbreath and I were looking at different poems at the link. This is what I saw:
"I am no Traitor," Francis said,
"Though this unhappy freight I bear;
And must not part with. But beware;--
Err not by hasty zeal misled,
Nor do a suffering Spirit wrong,
Whose self-reproaches are too strong!"

"The White Doe of Rylstone" by W. Wordsworth ៛ Bielle (talk) 01:25, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Right, same thing happened to me at first. The Cocteau thing is also here. --Milkbreath (talk) 01:40, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

That would be because I put it there (some time after). So yeah, it's Phoenixology (I warned you that link would be cumbersome!). And I, too, would love to see the original (especially after all the trouble I went through to find the poem at all). Kreachure (talk) 02:00, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, um... I guess I'll have to do with just one interpretation. :P Thanks. Kreachure (talk) 14:44, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] June 6

[edit] Why does Sikhism require men to have the last name Singh and women to have the last name Kaur to be equal?

I'm a Muslim that have interest in Sikhism. Is having the last name Singh or Kaur removes their caste or social status? Does it makes Sikhs equal? Jet (talk) 00:02, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Traditional legal practice that makes Sikh women equal to the men (same status). In the article Kaur, it explains that it's a compulsory middle or last name for women Sikhs as Singh is for men. It means "Princess" or "Lioness". Not a family name, but is "the final element of a compound personal name or as a last name". Hope this helps, Julia Rossi (talk) 02:21, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

There are many kinds of equality, but for practical purposes what this sharing of names seems to achieve is essentially a very public bond of shared interests. And although it runs against the teachings of the Sikh Gurus, many Sikhs are actually divided into the equivalent of castes. Xn4 14:12, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Book search

Not having much luck, so thought the infra-minded deskers might. Looking for a small book on arguments from the Talmud. It might have been called "Five (?) Arguments from the Talmud" (in English, about 10 years ago). At the time I couldn't afford to buy it so quickly flicked through it and now can't refind it on the net. Contents included setting out and explaining arguments from authority, tradition, scripture, precedent and I forget the other (unless it was only four). And if someone knows what that list is, would be helpful. Thanks, Julia Rossi (talk) 02:33, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Is this it? The Talmudic Argument: A Study in Talmudic Reasoning and Methodology has the dimension of 8.5 x 5.4 x 0.7 inches and was published in 1984. Not sure though since I'm unfamiliar with the field but I hope this will remind you of something.--Lenticel (talk) 03:48, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks Lenticel, a good find – it's put me on a trail to some libraries here. Somewhere said it was orange, so I should add the other was creamy yellow, though the price is about right (~=>*hand above head*) – must be very obscure or limited release, Julia Rossi (talk) 05:28, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Native Americans

I need information on how the Native American's treat their elderly. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.240.106.66 (talk) 08:04, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Do your own homework. You know, though, you might really want to know which nation you mean, and then which tribe you mean, as well as which period of history you're aiming at. Geogre (talk) 12:01, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Yep. Your question implies that they are a monolithic block, when in reality, there are many nations and tribes, thus many traditions and customs. Even the use of Native American is not universal and can be controversial. See Native American name controversy. --—— Gadget850 (Ed) talk - 19:17, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Links Between Secularism and Islam

Possible links ?

  • Averroes was a major muslim philosopher who is said to be the pioneer of secular thought in Europe
  • Islam (sunnism) is secular because it has no clerics
  • Islam (submission) subjugates faith and reason.
  • Islam has embraced multiculturalism because it is a network of clans and tribes
  • Islam views itself as inherently democratic as being itself the Ummah.

See Turkey as well —Preceding unsigned comment added by Steelersfan7roe (talk • contribs) 18:06, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

69.157.232.25 (talk) 12:37, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

And your question is ... ? --ColinFine (talk) 18:29, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Creating a fake history for a viral campaign

Hi there Im looking to create a fake history for our viral campaign. We are creating a dance event in the uk which is based on the venue being built on an old mental asylum. Permisson has been granted by the club for us to do this, we would like to add a wiki page explaining about this asylum and the projects that happened there. The Event is called the Advokate Project and is based on doctors testing on patients to create a super soldier in the world wars. The Doctors used many different methods including the paranormal. Unfortunatly this all went wrong and the patients became possessed, shortly after the asylum burnt down. We will say it was exactly 100 years ago, with there being paranormal activity escalating over the past few months within the venue. That is a brief overview of the story, but we are wondering if it is ok to put something like this up so people believe it. I understand that you look for factual information but this is for viral promotion and need to know what the rules are on this. Hpe you can help

Regards

Advokate project team —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.240.200.252 (talk) 13:13, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Are you asking if you can create a Wikipedia page containing a fake history of a building in order to support a dance event? If so, then the answer is no. The rules on using Wikipedia for promotion are "You're not allowed to do it". If you're asking whether you can create another website somewhere to support the event, feel free. DJ Clayworth (talk) 13:17, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
And I might add that (IMHO) viral marketing of this kind is extremely silly anyway. --Richardrj talk email 13:51, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Buy some server space, then buy up a bunch of cheap webdomains and have them point to different directories. Make two that look like serious academic pages, but make another look like a total crackpot conspiracy page. Make the first two talk about experiments and say that none of them were successful, make the last one say they were successful and the government is hiding it and etc. It'll be more believable if you subdivide the conspiracy into multiple pages like that, in my opinion, because in real life it would be obvious that something was up if the "official" pages talked about all sorts of crazy shit and nobody noticed. Get the web design right and it doesn't matter a whole lot what the content is. As a (very complicated) example of a "fake history" website, there's none better that I know of than Boilerplate. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 14:06, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Thesis

What would be the thesis that diplomatic immunity should not be used to protest the diplomats when committing a crime? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.30.202.29 (talk) 14:44, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Have you read our comprehensive article on diplomatic immunity?--Shantavira|feed me 16:15, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Christians

the christians in Lebanon and Syria are called the Maronite, but what about the christians in Palestine and Jordan? What are they called based on their beliefs? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.30.202.29 (talk) 14:45, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

  • Some are called Roman Catholic, some are called Eastern Orthodox, depending on what they are. (One of my favorite couples is Palestinian; she's Catholic, he's Orthodox.) --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 15:19, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
The Maronite Church is one of a subset of Catholic churches (along with the Roman Catholic Church, the Armenian Catholic Church, the Byzantine Catholic Church -- I believe that there are 5 in total). Each church's Patriarch (or, "pope" in the case of the Roman church) traces his ecliastical ancenstry back to one of the original 12 apostles. Most Roman Catholics are taught that the Pope is the head of the Catholic Church. In fact, he is head of the Roman Catholic Church and considered "first among equals" among the five(?) Patriarchs. Wikiant (talk) 15:54, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
See Palestinian Christian for a good list of the many different denominations. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 15:56, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Not all Lebanese Christians are Maronite, though it is the largest group in that country. Christians in the Middle East belong to five broad groupings of churches:
  1. Greek Orthodox (called Rūm Orthodox in Arabic) are the largest group, use Arabic (and some Greek) in their worship and are in communion with the Eastern Orthodox churches in Greece and beyond. There are Patriarchs of Antioch, Alexandria and Jerusalem.
  2. Oriental Orthodox are a group of churches that broke with the Greek Orthodox in the fifth century. Each church uses its own language. They are the Syriac Orthodox Church (using Syriac), Armenian Apostolic Church (using Armenian) and the Coptic Orthodox Church (using Coptic). There are other Oriental Orthodox churches in Ethiopia and India.
  3. Church of the East is a church that's strong in Iraq and uses Syriac as its liturgical language.
  4. Catholic churches are numerous throughout the Middle East too. Some people are Roman Catholics, belonging to the Catholic mainstream (called Latīn in Arabic). However, there are semi-independent Catholic versions of all of the above churches: Greek Catholics, Syriac Catholics, Armenian Catholics, Coptic Catholics and Chaldean Catholics (from the Church of the East tradition). The Maronites kind-of fit in here too, as they are Catholics, but are a historically independent group using Syriac as their liturgical language.
  5. Protestants are not so numerous in the Middle East, but there are some small churches.
I hope that makes things a little more clear. — Gareth Hughes (talk) 16:59, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Ph.D. thesis at a trade press?

I'm still some time off from finishing my Ph.D. thesis in History but I think it's probably a topic of sufficient general interest that there would be a chance that a trade press (like Knopf or FSG or Norton) would want to pick it up (and I write clearly enough and without excessive jargon for the transition to not be too painful). But I'm wondering if that would be perceived as a bad thing by prospective academic faculty hiring committees. Obviously the audience for both types of presses is different, and that would naturally necessitate being written a bit differently, but let's assume all other things being equal, and no intellectual rigor has suffered from being turned into a trade book, would it be terribly horrible to one's potential academic career to do such a thing? Am I totally wrong in assuming that the trick with trade books is to write clearly, not that one has to "dumb down" the text (as many academics seem to think is the case—and end up writing very poor trade books)? Any thoughts? --98.217.8.46 (talk) 16:15, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Some thoughts: on aiming at your target audience, I agree, clear communication is everything. The best kind is to be able to explain complex ideas in clear language without insulting them. Dumbing down implies patronising the reader and I think it does. Afaik, getting it published as PhD dissert would come first, then approaching a publishing house. As for reflecting on you, ground would have been broken by people like David Starkey and others who get into mass communication. When you say "trade" press, do you mean as a text book or for other historians? I'd talk the kind of people you feel might affect your prospects; and ask some professors. They'd probably give feedback to someone who hasn't crossed their desks as yet – you can then sift it through. Mike Dash (PhD in Naval history) wrote Tulipomania published by Gollanz and he's got a user page here. Julia Rossi (talk) 02:18, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
and a cheerful set of contributions! - some displacement activity; mind you those brief descriptions are intriguing...the man's obviously a talented writer... I'm just going to have a brief look at those entries... and I may be gone for some time... Mhicaoidh (talk) 09:38, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
In my cynical experience, academic dissertations should have as much waffle and as much jargon in them as possible in order to get high marks. If you follow normal rules of good style such as being concise and avoiding jargon (eg using the word "story" instead of "narrative") then you get a pooorer assessment. 80.2.197.210 (talk) 11:47, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Count of population

What's the best way to count the population of a nation? and how ? explain with much details? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.64.91.147 (talk) 18:27, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Try Census and demographics. Most/all of what you need should be in there. Fribbler (talk) 18:38, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] wittgenstein on popper

Hi, I seem to remember reading in an article in the Guardian Weekly that Wittgenstein criticised Popper simply because his philosophy wasn't merely footnotes to Plato, on the (apparent) assumption that all good philosophy was in fact just that. Have I got this right, because I can't find it by googling, or could it have been someone else levelling the charge at Popper? 203.221.126.3 (talk) 18:42, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

You are correct. Fribbler (talk) 18:47, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
That's a gripping story, but it doesn't seem to support 203.221.126.3's memory of what Wittgenstein may have said about Popper? The only mention of Plato is ascribed to Wasfi Hijab. Xn4 23:06, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Ah. On careful reading it was indeed Hijab. Fribbler (talk) 23:10, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for those answers. I think I actually came across that article googling, but only read the bit about Plato, and moved on. It may have been the actual article that I read in the first place. Even so, if anyone can add to this, I would appreciate it, since it may throw further light on the subject. But presumably I had just misremembered the article. 203.221.127.200 (talk) 17:25, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Presiddential Term of Office

Under the Constitution, the President can only serve two elected terms. If, after serving those terms, is he or she able to sit out a term and serve again? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.183.124.245 (talk) 19:43, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

From the article Term limits in the United_States: The Twenty-Second Amendment states that "no person shall be elected the the office of President more than twice..." So since serving a third term, whenever that may be, means being elected more than twice, then it can't be done. Fribbler (talk) 19:49, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
And the common follow-up question... He cannot be Vice-President either because he cannot be in a position to immediately become President. Now, if he get a cool shiny robot body and ceases being a person, can he be re-elected? -- kainaw™ 19:53, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Of course that was President Of Earth, so a different office entirely :-) Fribbler (talk) 19:55, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Any two-term President could be Vice-President. However, if the President died, resigned, impeached, etc., the VP would be ineligible to accede to the Presidency and it would go to the Speaker of the House. I'm assuming the second question refers to Futurama; we wouldn't know until it is brought to the Supreme Court. ~~
Really? What if there was less than 2 years left when (s)he was VP? Cause a VP can serve for up to 2 years if the president dies and still get elected for two full terms, no? --Wirbelwindヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 20:36, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
The 12th amendment states, "no person constitutionally ineligible to the office of President shall be eligible to that of Vice-President of the United States." A two-term President is constitutionally ineligible to the office of the President, which is why I feel that he cannot be Vice President. -- kainaw™ 20:36, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
That's the generally accepted interpretation, but the actual wording makes it unclear — it makes you wonder, or it makes me wonder anyway, what on earth they were thinking of when they drafted the 22nd amendment the way they did. See 22nd Amendment#Interaction with the Twelfth Amendment. --Anonymous, 22:12 (yes!) UTC, 2008-06-06.
I fail to see what is unclear. The phrase "constitutionally ineligible" is very clear. A person who has been elected President twice is "constitutionally ineligible" to be President. If that is the case, the person is not eligible to be Vice-President. The contention in the article is unreferenced and makes terrible use of weasel words. I have a strong feeling it is something someone added because they were too stubborn to accept the law at face value. -- kainaw™ 20:55, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] 501(c)3 and State Universities

Is a state university (particularly in Ohio) a 501(c)3 organization? The 501(c) article is a little vague on the subject, and it seems that the foundation that supports scholarships and so forth at my university is one, but I'm not clear on if the university is. Thanks! Cigarette (talk) 20:01, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

I doubt that location makes any difference in relation to tax-exempt status. The 501(c)3 is a federal classification which is offered to organizations dedicated to, for example, education. Not only is the 501(c)3 classification designed to help educational organizations spend money most effectively, but it would also be awkward for the federal tax system. If state universities would be obligated to pay sales tax, their operating expenses would rise dramatically, thus requiring additional federal funding, which would in turn come from the money they had just paid in taxes. As you could imagine, this makes a very ineffective financial cycle. My local university is a 501(c)3 organization, as evidenced by [17] .

If you are in a legislative mood, please read [18] for more concise information. Freedomlinux (talk) 21:00, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Printers' current practice in their relationship with authors

It used to be, when an author had created a writing - a fiction or non-fiction work - that he/she would submit an handwritten (a long time ago), or a typewritten (not so long ago) or a computer printed facsimile of his Work. I should like to know what the accepted practice is to day among the leading printers, if there is a commonality of practice. I take it that, today, every writer or would-be writer uses a computer and a printer. Would an author still send a printed set of pages to editors of his choice or would he simply send a CD, or, if his computer is old, a set of diskettes? Would the author have to go through an agent and if so, what would he send him ? Perhaps he is expected to do both or something else yet? Wildhobo (talk) 21:35, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

First off, the writer would need to approach a publisher rather than a printer. Most publishers will accept manuscripts in a variety of formats, and they will often specify what they want on their website. Sometimes their requirements are very specific, e.g. that you must supply the manuscript in Microsoft Word format, but most are more flexible than that. Also most publishers will not have the time to read an entire manuscript from an unknown author; they prefer to receive a synopsis of the book and a sample chapter only. They can then assess whether they want to see more and perhaps suggest improvements at that stage. Some writers hire a literary agent who understands the market and knows which publishers are most likely to be interested in that particular book. The agent can also advise the writer on editing matters, which fewer publishers are willing to do these days. Beware of vanity publishers. If your book is worth publishing, you will not need to pay a publisher in order to do so.--Shantavira|feed me 06:54, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
Shantavira's advice is quite right, but doesn't discuss format - I get the impression you may have a text you wish to distribute to publishers/agents who you hope may be interested. As Shant said a synopsis and up to three chapters is standard, and in terms of format check what each wants but generally a printed manuscript and equivalent on a CD is standard - not many firms like emails with attachments unless you are known to them. However most of these submissions are doomed never to be looked at. What is much better is to arrange a meeting directly with the publisher to discuss the project and what they are interested in. They have a business plan and you need to make your self part of it. This is where agents can be very handy, they have an existing relationship and can get you in the front door, at a price.
Shant and myself have both assumed that your original question meant publisher rather than printer, but if indeed you did mean printer, just remember that printing is the easy part! Distribution and sales are very, very difficult to achieve on your own. Mhicaoidh (talk) 09:18, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Plato's Allegory of the cave

What is the meaning of Plato's allegory of cave? --24.193.17.140 (talk) 22:25, 6 June 2008 (UTC)Abrar Ahmed

As with many allegories, there just isn't a definitive answer to that question. But see Allegory of cave#Interpretation. Xn4 00:00, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
Hmm, looking at the article, I think the lead section should include a brief mention of the meaning/interpretations/issues-raised. Fribbler (talk) 00:04, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Josephus and the dance of the seven veils

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Please clarify what seems to be an error on the page describing the dance of the seven veils.

Wikipedia states that Josephus provided a name for the stepdaughter of Herod Antipas (correct) and also provided the name of the dance she performed before Herod.

This makes the reader assume Josephus named the dance "the dance of the seven veils".

In reading Josephus I could NOT find where he names the dance.

Where does Josephus name the dance, as you claim on that Wikipedia page, and what did he say its name WAS?

Thank you. 71.111.153.129 (talk) 22:23, 6 June 2008 (UTC)J. Salkieldt

Looking at chapter XVIII of Antiquities of the Jews, it seems to me (as it does to you) that Josephus does not name the dance. And of course he has no reason to mention Salome anywhere else. Xn4 23:54, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Tracing this back through the history, it appears that at some moment there was a true statement: "Details enriching the story in later Christian mythology include providing a name for the dance, and describing the purpose of the dance as being to inflame King Herod with incestuous desire so that he would treat John as she wished". Another correct statement was added: "The historian Josephus gives the stepdaughter's name, Salomé". These two statements were coupled in a very ambiguous way: "The historian Josephus gives the stepdaughter's name, Salomé and other details ..."). This was next misinterpreted, and edited to be unambiguous, but in the wrong interpretation: "The historian Josephus lists the stepdaughter's name as Salomé and provides other details ...".  --Lambiam 05:57, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] June 7

[edit] Nguni Use of space and acquisition of territory in the nineteenth century

Does anyone know about the way migrating Nguni (especially Zwangendaba) conceived of space and used territories in the nineteenth century southern Africa. Possible answers might refer to ways of territorial acquisition, the meaning of public and private space, etc. References will be well appreciated. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ndzesop (talk • contribs) 00:48, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Why should I keep my father's surname if I change my name to a Arabic/Muslim name?

I was thinking about changing my name to Abdullah Muhammad Ahmad. I'm using Abdullah Muhammad Ahmad as my pseudonym. But some other Muslims say I can't drop my surname (change it). It's orthodox to retain the surname but unorthodox to replace it. I rather go with the unorthodox way because it too have to say to some people, uncommon, and adoption of religion/culture purposes. I have a long last name with 10 letters. Writing and spelling is like this: C*o*a*a*d*. I may want to adopt a Arabic/Muslim because I'm Muslim and Arabic is important in my religion. My family is from Thailand where one one family can use a given last name so the last name I'm having is too long. I'm the only Muslim in my family. My family are all Buddhists. I would like the family to adopt a new last name (surname) since we may have that surname that is too long. My future family will be "Muslim". This is like Arabization to my family because of the Arabic/Muslim surname. Should I keep my surname or I have choice to change it? Note: I am not asking for legal advice. I just want simple answers. Jet (talk) 05:14, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

I doubt there is a factual answer for your question. Changing your name appears to be a matter of personal preference based on, in your case, religion, culture and family. Whichever you choose is a statement to your family and others of what is most important to you. Before you decide, you might consider that your children may have the same options, both in choosing a religion and in choosing a name. What you do now may set a standard for what you expect of them and for what your actions establish as permission for their choices. ៛ Bielle (talk) 06:30, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
After a recent court case in California, the husband can take the wife's surname there. If you are unmarried and plan to marry someone with an Arabic surname there, that'd work. User:Krator (t c) 07:09, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
Why is a ten-letter name too long? What's wrong with "Washington" and "Eisenhower"? If your name was Pichaironnarongsongkram, I'd sympathize. Surnames are a recent invention. In the Islamic Golden Age Muslims did not have surnames, and a notion that changing one's surname goes against orthodox Islamic teaching must be based on a misunderstanding.  --Lambiam 07:43, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Absentee ballot

I'm going to be at school in NC during the election this november but since I'm a CT resident and I'm (about to be) registered in CT I won't be able to vote there. I know I would need to do an Absentee ballot, but I have no idea how to do something like that and could use some instructions if someone has them. Thanks :). Chris M. (talk) 06:13, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

This webpage of the Secretary of State of Connecticut contains information about absentee ballots, including links to application forms. A phone number you can call for information is 1-800 540-3764.[19]  --Lambiam 07:54, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
Thank you. Chris M. (talk) 17:34, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Stock exchange and share things

I just turned 18 and I really wanna start putting small amounts of money on the stock market and turning it into large amounts :P. How do I go about buying shares firstly and which shares are the best ones to buy?

First of all, try reading the Efficient market hypothesis article. This suggests that it is practically impossible to predict or forecast the market or individual shares - or else (I think) you need a PhD in maths or statistics to do so after a lot of research. So if you want to invest, choosing shares at random is as good a method as any, or you need very high levels of skill, experience, or luck. In other words, it is practically impossible to know which shares are the best ones to buy. But apart from that, buying a set amount of shares every month would probably suit you - I do not know what specific investment products are available. Of course, investment businesses of various kinds spend a lot of advertising money trying to convince people that the EMH is not true.
On the other hand, there are some market anomalies (a too brief article - see http://www.investorhome.com/anomaly.htm instead) which could be exploited perhaps. High yield is another one. 80.2.197.210 (talk) 11:05, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

As for "How do I go about buying shares", you have to go through a stock broker, who will collect a fee for every time you buy or sell shares. Different brokers deal with different kinds of customers and you would need advice appropriate to the country where you live. --Anonymous, 09:21 UTC, June 8, 2008.

Regarding "which shares are the best ones to buy?", I wouldn't tell you if I knew but I would recommend reading anything Warren Buffet has written that you can get your hands on. Warren Buffett#Writings seems like a good place to start. He's a very strong proponent of value investing, for example.
By the way, if capital markets were efficient, how would you explain Buffet's success? Research has shown (and Buffet agrees) that the weak-form hypothesis is likely true so that rules out the Maths/Stats PhD thing. There's no conclusive evidence regarding the other forms of the hypothesis. Zain Ebrahim (talk) 12:41, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Formula for price and sales graph line

Generally (with some exceptions) lower prices mean more goods are sold, higher prices mean less sales. If price and sales is plotted on a graph (which may be "chart" in American English), its probably going to be a curve of some sort. Has anyone actually worked out a formula that relates price to number of sales? Yes, I anticipate you may point out that the sales volume depends on many other things apart from price, and it may be difficult to determine the relationship even under experimental conditions. 80.2.197.210 (talk) 10:56, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

This is a basic homework question in economics. See supply and demand for plenty of information on the interaction between price and demand. -- kainaw™ 15:06, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
It is an actual mathematical formula I am after please, preferably one obtained empricably. If its so basic, please be so kind as to tell me such a formula. 80.2.207.208 (talk) 16:08, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
Apparently I wasn't clear enough... There is no formula. The creation of a formula is a common homework question. You are given a bunch of price/demand/supply values and asked to draw the graph for that specific instance. Since it is a completely different graph for any product at any point in time, you have a different formula. If, by chance, you happened to read supply and demand, you would easily see how there are common types of graphs/formulas for certain types of products. -- kainaw™ 16:13, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
I did look at the article and also the demand curve article. Cannot see any formula. It is a formula I am after. I have studied economics among other related subjects for a number of years, by the way - I won't dazzle you with my qualifications. In all the decades that economics has been discussed, it seems likely that somebody at least has tried to do an empirical determination of the formula for such a curve - that is what I am after. 80.2.207.208 (talk) 16:21, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
There is no formula. Within limited price range fluctuations, reasonable fits can sometimes be obtained by a formula of the form Demand = C × Price−E, in which C and E are positive constants. (E for Elasticity.) However, for most commodities there are usually sizable fluctuations in demand all the time even when the price remains fixed, which makes any empirical construction of a formula precarious and of dubious value. A slump in sales after a price raise is often temporary. Demand may even increase when the price is raised because the consumer is inclined to ascribe higher quality to higher-priced goods.  --Lambiam 17:16, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
There is no formula, and yet there is a formula. That's very Zen. Anyone know of any papers that have tried to study the price/demand curve empirically please? (And so, as many other people have noted, the whole edifice of economics is not based on any empirical basis). 80.0.100.139 (talk) 19:58, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
This is getting to the point of childish stubbornness. There is not universal formula. There simply isn't. If you absolutely must have one, how about price = demand / supply. Of course, that won't work in any real case, but it is a formula. I already pointed out that the creation of a formula is a common homework/test question. If you took economics, then you've done this. You are given price/demand/supply data and asked to create a "best-fit" curve. That curve can be represented as a formula. However, that formula/curve is only valid for that single set of data. It is absolutely useless for any other economic case. I simply do not know how to make this any clearer - especially to someone who claims to know economics. -- kainaw™ 20:51, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Not "based on any empirical basis"? A quick google search will lead you to (I'm not kidding) hundreds of thousands of journal articles involving empirically testing economic theory. To find the formula relating price and quantity demanded for a specific data set, you start with price and quantity sold (as quantity demanded is not known until *after* you have the formula) and factors other than price that are relevant to demand and supply (e.g., consumer income). Then apply the two stage least squares procudure. This will give you an estimate of the demand function. Wikiant (talk) 11:04, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Meta-themes of making money

I'm wondering if it is possible to list all the possible ways of making money. In the abstract rather than specific cases. For example money can be made by 1) putting two or more things together to create something with a value greater than the sum of the value of the parts, 2) buying something now which has a higher value in the future, 3).....? What other themes of making money are there please? Buying a lottery ticket might be another. 80.2.197.210 (talk) 11:40, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Don't forget about the value of labor itself. Give me a piece of wood, and it's worthless. If I apply some labor to the wood (carve it into a little statue), suddenly I can charge for it. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 14:29, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
This would be covered by 1) above, as you are putting wood and labour together. 80.2.207.208 (talk) 16:02, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
And don't forget about intellectual property. By carving that wood in a statue of Mickey Mouse it enters into a whole other regime where the labor and the materials are not the only salient aspects to its cost. Personally I don't think there's an easy way to parse out all of the "ways of making money". There are different ways to talk about value itself, which is probably more worthwhile. I think someone has tried that before, though. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 14:30, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
If Das Kapital does provide such a list (which I rather doubt), please could someone point out where it can be found. Thanks. 80.2.207.208 (talk) 16:11, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
I assume that it can be reduced to two possibilities:
  1. Take money (or something of value that may be sold for money). For example, stealing.
  2. Make the appearance of value and exchange it for money.
The first one is obvious. If you steal something, you can get money - especially if you steal money. The second isn't so obvious. In selling objects, the appearance of value is the object itself. In the labor example above, the labor is the appearance of value. In entertainment, the movie, game, show... is the appearance of value. Even in something like a telephone scam, the scam is the appearance of value that generates money. I just thought of counterfeiting. In that case, the fake money is the appearance of value that is traded either for money or something that may be sold for money. -- kainaw™ 15:04, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

OK, so 3) could be "steal it". But neither of the two comments above include 2), suggesting that there may be other themes also. 80.2.207.208 (talk) 16:15, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

(N+1). Begging.
(N+2). Extortion.
(N+3). Finding lost coins (e.g. under slot machines or in the beach sand).
(N+4). Insider trading.
(N+5). Bounty hunting.
(N+6). Marrying old rich people.
 --Lambiam 17:27, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. I think begging and marrying old people could be 4) being given money by sympathy or affection; extortion would be 3) stealing it; insider trading would be mostly 2) and in the past was not illegal. Finding lost coins and bounty hunting (is that getting a reward for capturing criminals?) is interesting - could be 5) searching for lost assets. This reminds me of Vladimir Propp's (sp?) narrative morphology. 80.0.100.139 (talk) 20:17, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Extortion, while illegal, is not theft. In theft the criminal takes the money or property, possibly without the victim's knowledge, and definitely without their consent. In extortion, the victim gives the money or property. In the case of young people marrying much older people, there is a plausible possibility that at some future time they will inherit their spouse's wealth and become rich (as for the late Vickie Lynn Marshall, née Hogan). This then is the effect of the laws regulating inheritance, and no sympathy or affection is involved in the eventual transfer of property. In insider trading, the criminal buys below value; because of the use of inside knowledge, the buyer knows that the shares bought are actually worth more than the seller knows at trading time. The later increase of value on the market is real, but intrinsically the shares did already have the higher value at trading time, and thus this cannot be categorized as an instance of "making the appearance of value".  --Lambiam 10:45, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
I think the OP was referring to his/her number 2 (not Kainaw's). <nitpick>Selling above value on material non-public information also constitutes insider trading.</nitpick> Zain Ebrahim (talk) 12:09, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
In most of the cases mentioned, they fall under the number 2 I mentioned. In begging, a person offers a social value in exchange for money (the person exchanges money either to feel better about themselves or to get the bum to go away - both are valuable). In extortion, the value that the money is exchanged for is the peace of not being hurt, having your place burned, being framed for some crime... Bounty hunting is simple. Some law enforcement finds value in catching criminals and is willing to pay. In marrying old rich people, the companionship is the value exchanged. It all comes down to exchanging value for money.
There are two cases mentioned that don't fit this. Insider trading is not a unique way to make money. Buying/selling stocks is the money making method. Insider trading simply increases the money made due to knowledge of the stock values in the future. If you sell that knowledge to someone else, the knowledge is the value that is exchanged for money. Finding lost coins equates to the first point I used - taking money. You can find coins all day and not make any money if you don't take them. -- kainaw™ 20:46, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
I don't agree that trading (inside or otherwise) stocks is selling knowledge. Say you have a stock and are willing to sell it for $5 but I "know" it's worth $10 and I buy it from you for $5. I haven't sold knowledge to anyone (I just earned a profit off it).
Maybe if we changed "making money" to "creating wealth" then your two possibilities could be restated as:
  1. Take value. (Not necessarily illegal.)
  2. Make value (or the appearance thereof).
In either case the assumption is that the value may be exchanged for money. Now, insider trading falls under 1 because by buying the stock from you, I "took" $5 of value from you. Zain Ebrahim (talk) 21:02, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Question about copyright renewals

Let's say you had a poster from a film that says "Copyright so-and-so Pictures, 1950." The U.S. Copyright Office renewal database the copyright for the film was renewed in 1978 or so. But it doesn't say anything about a renewal of the copyright on the poster itself. Are they one and the same, or is the poster is in the public domain? Is the poster necessarily a derivative work of the film, and thus covered by its copyright renewal? --98.217.8.46 (talk) 14:26, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

That is an interesting question which asks for legal advice and therefore cannot be answered here. --Anon, 09:23 UTC, June 8, 2008.
You don't have a talk page so this has to go here. The OP's asking if the film's copyright renewal covers the poster. While I agree that he/she is unlikely to get a good answer here (or from anyone besides a professional), it's not a request for advice. If someone happens to know the appropriate legislation, they should link it. Zain Ebrahim (talk) 12:58, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] spanish sailing ships of the 17th century

Did any spanish fleets sail from Spain to New Spain during the year 1640Thetreasurehunter (talk) 16:06, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes, but some of the treasure lost on their return voyage has already been plundered. A twenty ship Flota de Indias left Seville and made the crossing in 64 days. As far as i can tell, all twenty arrived safely in Veracruz June of 1640. On the return voyage in 1641 the fleet was struck by a hurricane and ten ships were lost, including 600 ton almiranta (vice admiral's ship) Nuestra Señora de la puria y limpia Concepción which carried somewhere between 35 and 140 tons of silver. In 1688 Captain William Phips recovered either 25 or 32 tons of silver from the wreck of Concepción, and in 1978 Burt Webber found a further 60,000 silver coins at the site.
There should have also been a galleon fleet from Seville to South America in the same year, but i cannot find any reference to one.—eric 02:47, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
??? Seville isn't a port. Corvus cornixtalk 19:46, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Vice President term limit

Can a person who has already served two terms as U.S.vice president serve as U.S.vice president again under another U.S.president? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.251.251.221 (talk) 16:16, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes. DAVID ŠENEK 16:52, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
Yes. However, if a person has already served two terms as as the President of the United States, he or she cannot be a running mate as a Vice President. Jtg920 (talk) 20:34, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Medical cost that can be covered by the state

For practical reasons, (I think) the Dutch government must limit the expense that can be paid by the state for an individuals medical assistance to €80,000 per year. Is there a list of these values for other countries? How might they be derived? How does the average "value" of an individual factor in? I suppose it has to do with gross domestic product? Like if a person brought a certain amount of money into the country, it might not be sensible to allow them to pass for a sum below this amount. How does it work? ----Seans Potato Business 16:49, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Oh, no; oh yes.

I watch more BBC America than is good for a body. I keep hearing reference to a sort of catch phrase, seemingly from theater, where one side says something like "Oh, no it isn't!" and the other side says "Oh, yes it is!" One example is in a Monty Python sketch involving Puss in Boots. I just heard it again on "Cash in the Attic". What is the origin of that? --Milkbreath (talk) 17:00, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Pantomime -84user (talk) 17:32, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
O'Rly? Chris M. (talk) 17:33, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
It is a common way for English kids to conduct an argument regarding the factuality of a disputed issue. How do they do this at the other side of the North-Atlantic divide?  --Lambiam 17:35, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
"Uh-huh!" "Uh-Uh!" Wrad (talk) 17:41, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
That's one way. Beyond that, if it the matter is a particularly convoluted issue involving, say, a double dog dare, the one kid's lawyer will call the other kid's lawyer. Or they have a gunfight. --Milkbreath (talk) 17:48, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
Are you sure that kids use it that way, Lambiam? It doesn't ring for me (though it's true that I'm not around kids very much). To me it is only the pantomime riff, as 84user said (usually augmented with a 'Look behind you!'). I remember hearing American children on television and films retorting to "It is not!" with "It is so!" and thinking how lucky they were to have a way of doing so: our "It is" sounded weak beside it. --ColinFine (talk) 18:49, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
Punch and Judy routine?--Wetman (talk) 06:59, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Pantomime ? Part of the "he's behind you" routine.I've heard those exact words used in pantomime.hotclaws 08:08, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] ontario canada

question: although this township covers alot of ground, the british name means little? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kcron (talk • contribs) 19:29, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

According to our article, the name is derived from a Huron word: ontarí:io, meaning 'Great Lake'.—eric 20:22, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
And it is a province, not a township, more like a state if you know America, except much bigger in area. If the questioner is puzzled by "Ontario", I wonder what he/she thinks of "Saskatchewan" or "Manitoba". ៛ Bielle (talk) 23:30, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
I assume it is a riddle about a township in Ontario. Little Township in Cochrane? Pettypiece Township in Kenora? List of townships in Ontario would help if there weren't thousands of them. Most townships cover "a lot" of ground; what is "a lot"? What is "British" opposed to? French? A native name? This is not a very good riddle. Adam Bishop (talk) 03:24, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Oscar Wilde quote

There was some quote somewhere, about the fact that "everyone is someone else" with respect to their thoughts and ideas being a collection of those of previous people. I can't remember exactly. I think it was attributed to Oscar Wilde. ----Seans Potato Business 21:30, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation. Oscar Wilde, De Profundis, a.1905. Mhicaoidh (talk) 23:47, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
Here is one text [20] and another [21] that needs downloading, but be aware there are several versions as it was originally a letter written in prison and not published til after his death. Mhicaoidh (talk) 00:09, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Thanks very much. ----Seans Potato Business 14:47, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] June 8

[edit] Middle Ages

What were the forms of communication is the Middle Ages? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.223.15.49 (talk) 03:02, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Speaking, of course. Writing, for those who could read - usually in Latin, later more often in a vernacular language. Images combined with speech to communicate with the masses who could not read or write - at first paintings or mosaics, later stained-glass windows, in a church telling Bible stories, for example. Flags and later coats-of-arms to communicate who was on whose side in a battle. To take a message a very long distance, you had to walk, ride a horse, or take a ship. Basically, the same as everywhere else in space and time until the invention telegraphic and telephonic communication. Adam Bishop (talk) 03:19, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Also minstrelsy. --Allen (talk) 03:31, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Ah, of course, how could I forget that. Minstrels, troubadors, trouveres, minnesingers, etc. Adam Bishop (talk) 04:11, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Hi, this sounds a bit of a home work question. I'm guessing you are really asking about communications between and within kingdoms - a quick google reveals a lot of academic papers available that go into detail on that. But you really need to give a bit more detail, such as region, before anyone can really help. Mhicaoidh (talk) 05:07, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Related to minstrels are Town criers. For longer distance communication, they had beacons that could be lit in a relay to warn of invaders over a long distance very quickly, but which couldn't carry much information. Sound that travels long distances, such as yodels, whistles and drums could also be used, although these still could not carry as much information as human speech. Let's not forget Carrier pigeons, though! Laïka 16:02, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] GNP, GNP per Capita and Proportion of People Living in Cities

What were the GNP, GNP per capita and proportion of people living in cities of the United States, Great Britain, France and Australia in 1900, 1925 and 1950?

What were the countries with the highest GNP, GNP per capita and proportion of people living in cities in the world in 1900, 1925 and 1950? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.7.166.181 (talk) 08:08, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Automobile/Consumerism

Is the idea behind embracing the automobile, in the way that I think America and Germany (any possibly man other countries did) to make people consumers of petrol and therefore make them work to pay for it (and therefore productive)? Is all this consumerism just to keep people working? And what is the point in this? So people at the top of the capitalist food-chain can live more comfortably or to make us progress as a human race? And progress towards what? What are the ultimate goals of Western governments? World domination? Utopia? What's going on? ----Seans Potato Business 14:45, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Car rental peak dates

I'm doing some research and trying to find some sort of report on the internet of the car rental peak seasons, specifically in Miami. IS there anyplace on the website I can find this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.169.13.53 (talk) 18:31, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Addressing an Assyrian bishop?

How does one address an Assyrian bishop with the proper terms of respect or gestures expected? What is the general protocol?--Sonjaaa (talk) 20:43, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

I think "Your Grace" is an appropriate form of address. I don't know if kissing the ring is customary, but in any case I think that is only appropriate for people who believe that His Grace is standing in the apostolic succession and ascribe ecclesiastical authority to him because of that.  --Lambiam 21:33, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Science

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[edit] June 2

[edit] Battery Life in Hybrid Vehicles

Just how long can and do these batteries last? I know that all rechargeable batteries loose the ability to hold a charge over time, so this make me wonder how long the batteries that are used in hybrid vehicles can last. I've read some where that NiMH batteries have a lifespan of 400-600 charge cycles with Li-ion being around that number also, but I have no idea how true those numbers are. Any help would be appreciated. Deltacom1515 (talk) 00:19, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Anything good here? Fribbler (talk) 00:44, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
I would surely hate to have to replace the batteries every year and a half, since they are a major part of the price of the car. Edison (talk) 00:32, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
The "hybrid drive" battery in the Toyota Prius is warranted for 100,000 miles. It's capable of this very long life because the drive management controller only cycles it over a very narrow range. IIRC, the battery cycles between 40% and 60% of its full-charge capability. The battery also has forced-air cooling so that it never faces extreme heat. I believe you can find back-up references for this information at some of the sites describing plug-in hybrid conversions for the Prius.
Atlant (talk)
100,000 miles is a lot, but my truck has close to 200,000 miles on it. I wonder how much it would cost to replace the batteries in a hybrid after they've "died."RedStateV (talk) 21:05, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
When I bought my Prius I asked about that, and they said about as much as a new transmission would in a non-hybrid, so, there you go. dcole (talk) 18:11, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] what is the three intrinsic property of a pure substance?

--24.78.51.208 (talk) 00:33, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure that you could say that there are exactly three intrinsic properties of a "pure substance", so this sounds like it's probably a homework question that expects you to look at your textbook, or your previous notes, to where you've been told three properties. However, a look at chemical substance may offer a little assistance. Confusing Manifestation(Say hi!) 00:41, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

infact that's in review booklet and the question is which isn't a intrinsic property..a)densiy.b)color.c)Melting point.d)boilling point

i cant find answer for it--24.78.51.208 (talk) 02:17, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Ask yourself this; which of those properties are you able to change? That's the one that isn't intrinsic. Also, don't think about it too deep - it's not that kind of question. SpinningSpark 02:29, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
See Intensive_and_extensive_properties). --Bowlhover (talk) 03:34, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
I think you may have confused him more Spinningspark.. (you confused me more). This appears to be a very poor question as all four of these can be changed by simple modifications of the system, but maybe, as you said, I am thinking about it too hard. So...I think it is Density as you just need to change the temperature to change this...that being said the other three properties can be easily modified.--Shniken1 (talk) 04:09, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
No, it's not density. You are right though, it is a rubbish question and my answer was possibly not much better, my excuse is I was trying not to directly answer a homework question. The article found by Bowlover explains it better. An intrinsic property does not depend on the amount of the substance so it is not density - that remains the same however much there is of it. SpinningSpark 04:39, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
I don't think an "intensive property" is the same as an "intrinsic property". If you think about it, even the boiling and freezing points require a certain quantity to measure, as those terms are rather undefined for a single molecule. I'd say the answer they are fishing for is indeed density, as that can be changed easily for materials in a gaseous form, simply by adding or subtracting some from the container, or by changing the temperature for a liquid or a solid. Changing the pressure will also change the boiling and melting temps, but those can't be the answer as the same logic would apply to both, and we're only looking for one answer. StuRat (talk) 16:36, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Yes, density is easily changed with temperature. However, color can also change, e.g. sulfur, which turns red when heated above 200 C; there are probably special cases, but density is easily changed in any element that undergoes thermal expansion. Nimur (talk) 16:44, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
I agree that the question is total crap (can we give the teacher a failing grade ?), but I still think they are going for density. StuRat (talk) 20:46, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
? [22]--76.111.32.200 (talk) 15:29, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Going back to the question, it states for a pure substance. A well known quick and easy test to find out the purity of a substance is to measure the melting temperature and perhaps this is where the question was leading to? Jdrewitt (talk) 15:40, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
I'm going to go out on a limb, and say that the correct answer is whatever three properties the book or lecturer listed when the topic was presented. -- Coneslayer (talk) 15:48, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
—Of the four properties mentioned (density, color, melting point, and boiling point), color stands out as the most likely intended answer. The apparent color of a substance depends on the illuminant. Two substances displaying the same color under one illuminant may look very different under a different illuminant.
This question looks like it is from some high school/secondary school level study material. Unfortunately, it happens all too often that the person attempting to answer the question has more insight than the person writing the question had or expected. When dealing with questions like that, it's often helpful to think about fact/principle the question writer is trying to test the student on, and scale back the level of analysis appropriately. --71.162.249.251 (talk) 14:46, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] If stars can't fuse past iron...

How did we get heavier elements than iron in our universe? 24.46.50.159 (talk) 01:39, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

They get generated in supernovae, if I remember correctly. -mattbuck (Talk) 01:51, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
(ec) See Supernova#Source_of_heavy_elements. --Milkbreath (talk) 01:52, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
So it means that the solar system was created out of an earlier supernova due to the number of heavy metals found here?--Lenticel (talk) 01:57, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
At least one. The common opinion is that at least some of the material on earth must have gone through more than one supernova to account for the relative abundances of elements. SpinningSpark 02:23, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Note, however, that planets, and terrestrial planets in particular, manage to filter out most of the lighter elements and leave a highly disproportional amount of heavy elements. So, while our solar system is 99% hydrogen and helium, most of the hydrogen and helium on Earth and the other terrestrial planets has bled off into space, by rising to the upper atmosphere and being blown away by the solar wind. StuRat (talk) 16:26, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] liquid water versus water

I was watching a history channel documentary on the universe and a scientist kept talking about "liquid water". My family was mocking him for not just saying "water", but as the documentary went on we discovered all the scientists in it used the term. Why? What is different between water and liquid water? thanks experts. 64.231.202.9 (talk) 01:42, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, it's about being precise. In scientific terms, water refers to the molecule H2O. In common terms, water refers to the stuff that comes out of your tap. To a scientist, this is liquid water. This distinguishes it from ice (solid water), as ice can be the solid form of many different compounds (dry ice for example); and also from steam (water vapour) as steam can again refer to the gaseous state of many different compounds. -mattbuck (Talk) 01:50, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Also, since the documentary was on the Universe, the scientists may have been referring to environments in which water won't necessarily be liquid. Zain Ebrahim (talk) 01:56, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Yes, we scientists (I rather like saying that) use the term "liquid water" to distinguish between liquid water, solid water, and gaseous water. – ClockworkSoul 02:51, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
I use the scientific terms as well, but often get laughed at by those who simply call them "water", "ice", and "steam". StuRat (talk) 16:21, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Just as an additional point gaseous water or water vapor may be preferable to steam due to popular confusion with mist formed by the condensation of water vapor formed by boiling. Thomashauk (talk) 19:39, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Very strange pigeon picture....

WTF?
WTF?

Just discovered this odd pigeon image whilst browsing. Does it look like a photoshop job to anyone else here? The position of the head looks completely anatomically impossible, to the extent that I was unable to even parse the content at first... --Kurt Shaped Box (talk) 01:48, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Unless these two pictures and others from google images are all shopped, I think they might actually be real. The necks of these pigeons do seem pretty long, even though it still looks anatomically wrong to me with that knowledge. Guess their necks are just really flexible. (addendum) Found this and this image too, the latter makes me think that it's all the more likely it's possible, but maybe the patterns on the grey ones make it look like it's in a weirder position than it really is. --Wirbelwindヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 02:15, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

I suppose it's the pigeon equivalent of a human being able to touch his buttocks and the back of his head together. That said, some humans *can* do that. Maybe these birds were selectively bred - specifically so they could pose like that? Can't see the point myself, but those selective breeders do seem to like the weird and wonderful... --Kurt Shaped Box (talk) 02:32, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, from what I can gather, "modern" fantail pigeons are the ones featured in these pictures, so I would guess also that it's selective breeding. --Wirbelwindヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 02:37, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Yep. A lot of people just don't seem satisfied with normal pigeons. [23] --Allen (talk) 04:07, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Given the taste of Bride of Wildenstein it's not surprising, since people often aren't satisfied with normal people either. Julia Rossi (talk)
It was quite popular in England in the 19th century to breed all sorts of bizarre and strange looking pigeons (it still is today, to a much lesser extent). Pigeon fancy was one of the many inspirations for Charles Darwin when thinking about the plasticity of heredity. That particular one just has a huge tail, and a ridiculously huge, puffed-up chest. It is "not natural" in the sense that the appearance did not evolve that way in the wild, it is a human intervention to make funny looking birds. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 15:52, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
This does not look at all strange to me. Many birds have a great range of motion in the neck. The pictured posture would be a typical mating display for a number of species, e.g. grouse. 67.131.66.162 (talk) 22:40, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
It might just be the angle of the picture and/or this bird's particular markings but it looks to me as though the head is sat at 90 degrees to the neck in that image. Are they really *that* flexible? --Kurt Shaped Box (talk) 17:57, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] redox

Okay, so I'm having a bit of trouble understanding the whole redox thing. Here's the question I'm supposed to be answering:

If copper wire is placed in AgNO3(aq).

a. Which element is going to try to lose electrons?
Copper
b. Write the redox equation between copper and silver
Cu + AgNO3 → Ag+ + CuNO3
c. What is the net voltage for this reaction?
.28V
d. Is copper wire the anode or cathode?
anode

So I'm wondering how well I did, thanks for the help! --71.117.35.118 (talk) 04:39, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Now, I'll have to say that this definitely smacks of a homework question. Wisdom89 (T / C) 04:57, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Well at least he made an effort in answering the questions.--Lenticel (talk) 05:07, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
It could be just a typo, but in part b., your equation violates charge conservation. —Keenan Pepper 05:18, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Who cares if this is a homework question? They've made an effort and they're struggling so they want some help, that's absolutely fine. At least they made the effort. As Keenan said, your second part violates charge conservation but I think you just missed the + off the initial Cu. Regards, CycloneNimrod talk?contribs? 10:45, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Nope, changing Cu to Cu+ does not make the equation correct. That's solid Cu in that wire, with no other elements involved, so it must be neutral. Something else must be involved to balance the charge... —Keenan Pepper 18:41, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
So if I took out the positive charge of the silver so it would just be neutral would I have gotten all of the problems right? --71.98.15.188 (talk) 03:32, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] measuring fecundity

This line appears in Niall of the Nine Hostages:

In January 2006, scientists suggested that Niall may have been the most fecund male in Irish history, and second only to Genghis Khan worldwide.

They get this distinction not so much by fathering numerous children themselves (Niall is said to have had at least eight sons, which is remarkable but hardly record-setting) as through their later descendants. But then what about their fathers? Is there a way of weighting generations such that one can meaningfully say "This guy, this is the one who gets most of the credit for founding a proliferative lineage"? —Tamfang (talk) 05:29, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

I believe he's called Y-chromosomal Adam. 67.68.34.26 (talk) 09:41, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
...who lived long before Niall and Genghis. Thank you for playing. —Tamfang (talk) 19:30, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Could it be that Niall and his father have the same amount of living descendants but Niall is a generation more recent? The only alternative that makes any logical sense to me is that Niall's father isn't a "male in Irish History". Stanstaple (talk) 12:50, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Compressed hydrogen car

A disadvantage of hydrogen is that transportation requires compression/cooling, resulting in low efficiency. But can't this energy be won back? For example, like in a compressed air car, the pressure could be used to drive the pistons or a quasiturbine or whatever (or the wheels directly, as done by K'airmobiles). I don't know how risky it would be to use hydrogen in such a mechanical manner. (Such as sparks. Maybe use plastic parts for the mechanism?) Alternatively, instead of the pressure-difference with the surroundings, the temperature-difference could be used to generate energy, although I believe that can't be done very efficiently. What is the name for that technology again? DirkvdM (talk) 07:21, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

You could possibly get something back from those methods, but the question is whether hauling around the weight of the equipment to do so incurs more of a cost than the benefit. I would guess that it would. The one exception that comes to mind is using cooled liquid hydrogen to air condition the car. The advantage here would be that this method would replace the mechanical compressor and Freon system used currently, and quite possibly reduce the car's weight rather than increase it. Compressed hydrogen could also be used, as it provides quite a bit of cooling when decompressed. StuRat (talk) 16:15, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
It is true that there is mechanical energy which could be extracted from compressed Hydrogen. However, I think it would be a bad idea to use hydrogen for any sort of pneumatic system. It is highly flammable, and the probability of disaster would be significant. It's not a matter of "how risky" in absolute terms, it's "how risky relative to the alternative" (which would be, use any other thing except hydrogen in these systems). Putting flammable materials into a pneumatic system is tantamount to confining an explosive charge - should anything go wrong, the contained gases would pressurize the chamber, and firey metal fragments would fly everywhere - it would not be a good idea. Imagine using gasoline as brake fluid! It can be done, but it's far more dangerous than any alternative. Nimur (talk) 16:52, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Yeah, I already mentioned the risk, but any risk can be dealt with (hell, nuclear energy is even being used all around the world and millions of people die in car accidents, and that doesn't stop us from driving cars). If the advantage is big enough, that is, and that is what I am asking this for. One of the main (principal) advantages of hydrogen is transportation, which requires compression/cooling and thus causes energy loss. So solving that could have big enough advantages that someone else will come up with a safer system. Let's take this one step at a time. :) DirkvdM (talk) 17:12, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
I agree with Dirk here. Sure "confining an explosive charge" is potentially dangerous, but that's the basic concept behind the internal combustion engine, after all, so it certainly can be done safely. Also note that hydrogen is only explosive once mixed with oxygen, before then it could absorb a lightning strike and not combust. StuRat (talk) 20:34, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
StuRat, I'm not talking about an add-on to existing cars, which would increase the weight. The original idea is to have a hydrogen powered car and then adapt that to use the cold/pressure, but you could also look at it the other way around. A compressed air car is so light that that is actually named as one of the disadvantages in the article. So the question then becomes if adding the hydrogen sytem would not negatively affect the car's performance through weight. But of course if either system works, then the combination should too.
But the main thing that is bugging me is what method might be used to make use of the cold. Or rather the heat difference between the tank and its surroundings. That represents energy, but I have no idea how to make use of that (other than for airco). Something that uses a heat pump would probably be way to heavy for a car. DirkvdM (talk) 17:12, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
I don't quite understand. If a car has weight X and only has equipment to utilize the burning of hydrogen, and you then add components to allow it to also take advantage of the pressure and/or cold of the hydrogen gas, then you're adding weight to the vehicle (unless you can remove something as heavy or heavier, like the A/C compressor and refrigerant storage system). This same logic applies whether the additional equipment is added after-market or at the factory. StuRat (talk) 20:30, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
No I'm sorry, I was thinking you meant adding something to an already designed car. I'm talking about a completely new design. But yeah, unless the two technologies share some part(s), the combination will mean an increase in weight. DirkvdM (talk) 06:32, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Are you thinking of a Stirling engine? This would efficiently exploit a temperature differential to do work; but as the article notes, there are some disadvantages including the weight of heat exchangers. I imagine a Stirling engine which used liquid hydrogen to chill the cold section of the engine, then burned the hydrogen to warm the hot section, would be very efficient. For pressurized hydrogen, the tank pressure would seem to eliminate the need for a separate fuel pump; further, if the pressure is much higher than is needed to admit fuel to the prime mover, perhaps it could power a turbine or piston in series with the prime mover? And that in turn could compress the incoming air to the engine, a tank powered supercharger, if you will. I agree with other comments that using compressed hydrogen as a sort of general purpose pneumatic system would be too dangerous; you would want the system to be closely integrated with the engine casing for safety, either having the prime mover directly exploit a pressure/temperature differential, or having an auxillary unit closely attached, as a supercharger or turbocharger would be on a conventional engine. Fletcher (talk) 14:04, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Number one exporter of potassium

Now, we all know that according to Borat, Kazakhstan was the "number one potassium exporter in the world". But that isn't, I believe, true. Nor is it true that "all other countries have inferior potassium". So here is my question, as I cannot find the answer in the potassium article. Which country is the number one potassium exporter in the world? Based on potash (potassium carbonate), the biggest company is the Potash Corporation of Saskatchewan, so that would be Canada. But is potash the primary source of potassium? What about potassium chloride, potassium oxide or potassium hydroxide, all of which are used in fertilizers? A bit random, but I even thought of bananas - they have a very high potassium content. I did the math, and India (#1 producer of bananas - 16.8 million tons of bananas produced in 2005, at 358mg of potassium per 100g) produces 60,200 tons of potassium per year via bananas. I'm not sure if this is even close to the weight of potassium in fertilizers. Anyone know the answer? Who is number one potassium exporter in the world? Neıl 龱 15:38, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

I would be quite surprised if bananas are worth more for their extracted potassium than as food. Are you asking who produces the most potassium sold as such, or are you including potassium found in other products ? StuRat (talk) 16:02, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
(after edcon)I'd say if you want to include potassium inside plants and animals it gets rather extensive. Potassium is an electrolyte essential for both plants and animals. So if you count bananas you'd have to look at all the other foods, too. e.g. [24] Just an example: although soybean only contain 149 mg potassium /100g, the US reported exports of 4.36 million tonnes [25] for just one week. Add to that exports in meat, rice and other foods. You'd then have to do that for all major exporters. Next you'd have to add compounds [Category:Potassium compounds] and again products that contain those, like e.g. toothpaste and softdrinks. Good luck.Lisa4edit (talk) 16:32, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
As a matter of interest, how exactly would you go about extracting potassium in elemental form from bananas? --Kurt Shaped Box (talk) 17:52, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
The traditional way, I think, would be to burn them to make potash (potassium carbonate), boil that with slaked lime (calcium hydroxide) to make potash lye (potassium hydroxide), then electrolyse that to get potassium metal. But there probably isn't a huge demand for potassium metal, so you might be better off leaving it at the potash stage to make fertiliser. --Heron (talk) 18:49, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
I think sales of potassium metal itself are very low, given it's highly reactive with water (so that wouldn't be the answer - it's almost always sold as a compound). I also have a feeling I've taken on too much if I include foodstuffs etc. I'm going to make my life easier, and stick with potash, and Canada. Thank you for your help, though, guys. Neıl 龱 08:39, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] DREAMS

why do we dream? I have read that dreams occur due to the memories that had been stored in our brain during sleep. but i need a clear cut idea —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pinni smart (talk • contribs) 16:00, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't think we know for sure. There have been many theories:
1) They are "random firings of nerve cells" while we're asleep.
2) They are a method for us to review what we've done and come up with better strategies for dealing with similar situations in the future. (I like this idea.)
3) They are attempts by our subconcious to communicate with our concious minds. (Sigmund Fraud loved this idea.)
4) They are attempts by God/the gods to communicate with us. StuRat (talk) 16:07, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Check out Dream#Dream_theories. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 16:15, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Maybe because 'directed thinking' (as described by Carl Jung) is tiring. Somehow dreaming recharges our batteries, so to speak. Em3ryguy (talk) 17:53, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Yeah, this question has caused people problems for ages. Although REM sleep has been identified as "recharging" as Em3ryguy put it, it's just as likely that dreams are jsut a werid side effect of REM-sleep. We have no way of knowing for sure if the dreams themselves have a recuperative effect. One theory that hasn't been posted yet is the behaviorist answer: "Dreams are just a propensity to tel funny stories immediately after waking." --Shaggorama (talk) 05:09, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Here is a document on the importance of rem sleep http://www.psychlotron.org.uk/resources/sleep/AQA_A2_sleep_deprivationstudies.pdf
Here is the same article in html http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cache:93gvQl7J9qkJ:www.psychlotron.org.uk/resources/sleep/AQA_A2_sleep_deprivationstudies.pdf Em3ryguy (talk) 13:03, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Burr oak

I posted a question concerning burr oaks last week and it is no longer posted. What happened???129.112.109.252 (talk) 16:33, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

What's your question? If it asked for medical or other advice it might have been deleted.Lisa4edit (talk) 16:37, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
After a week, questions are moved to the Archives. -- Coneslayer (talk) 16:44, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Your edit history shows no such question, although you might have a varying ISP number. By all means ask again.--Shantavira|feed me 16:49, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Might want to look at burr wood. Ziggy Sawdust 18:55, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Bur oak?--Lisa4edit (talk) 19:03, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] thin film book

i need book about thin film, how can i find thin film book? —Preceding unsigned comment added by More55 (talk • contribs) 17:26, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Have you tried an on-line bookshop? Amazon has plenty of titles with "thin film".--Shantavira|feed me 07:11, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
You did not by any chance mean books captured on microfilm or microfiche? The article has some links at the bottom, but I don't know if they'd be helpful to you. --76.111.32.200 (talk) 21:22, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Nutritional information Aquafina Alive Satisfy water - specifically, what substance is the fiber?

This product states it has 3 grams of dietary fiber per 8 ounce serving. Reading the ingredients on the Pepsi website states exactly what the label on the bottle states....nothing that I can identify as being the substance that is the "fiber" in this water. I know that there are some types of seed husks that are used in Metamucil and the like.

What is in this water that is considered to be fiber?

--Dbacksfanbrian (talk) 17:53, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Looking at the ingredients list from this site, the only ingredient listed that might contain dietary fiber is the NATURAL FLAVOR. Everything else is water, sugar, and assorted small-molecule chemicals. I'd say it's likely that those 'natural flavors' include some sort of pureed fiber source. I couldn't tell you what that was, however. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 18:56, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Maltodextrin is considered a "dietary fiber" apparently. Lisa4edit (talk) 18:59, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

I did review the ingredient list from the PepsiCo website. I never imagined that maltodextrin could be considered "fiber". I know it's used in a lot of candy, likely for the same purpose as it serves in pharmaceuticals...as a binder. I guess I struggle with calling something "fiber" just because it isn't digestible. Thank you for answering the question. I wonder if the FDA considers it to be fiber! Thanks again! --Dbacksfanbrian (talk) 13:18, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Propeller aeroplane under water

If a propeller aeroplane is made waterproof, will it work under water? What are the issues involved? --Masatran (talk) 18:20, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Submarine what would be the difference? What changes do you propose? Lisa4edit (talk) 18:48, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Do the gear ratio of the motor of the propeller, etc. have to be adjusted? If yes, how? --Masatran (talk) 18:55, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Water is a heck of a lot thicker (more viscous) than air. If you start trying to spin an airplane prop at its normal speed, it will cavitate for a little while – if you're very lucky – and then snap off. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 18:58, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Yea, it wouldn't work well. For water you need a shorter, thicker, slower prop than for air. I suppose you could run an airplane prop extremely slowly (less than one rev per second), and get some propulsion under water, but you would do better to have a separate prop for underwater use. Another issue is cooling, as airplane engines will commonly be air-cooled and won't tolerate being submerged in water. The wings will also provide a lot of drag under water. Finally, an airplane is way too light to submerge in water, it would float until it fills with water, then it would sink. So, this idea really won't work. However, an airplane that would operate on (or just above) the surface of the water could work well, as a ground effects aircraft. StuRat (talk) 20:17, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Normal airplane engines work by burning fuel and therefore require an oxygen supply, which is in the form of air. See Submarine#Propulsion for discussion of underwater power supplies. --Anon, 16:50 UTC, June 2, 2008.
If the pitch of the propellor were adjusted (many modern planes have adjustable pitch) and the speed of rotation were reduced, to compensate for the higher density of water, and the wings were folded in somewhat for similar reasons, and compartments were flooded to decrease bouyancy, and the craft had a passenger compartment which could withstand the pressure of the water, and the propulsion system could switch over to battery (or other non air breathing technology) then it should be do-able, at least sufficiently for plausibility in a Jules Verne or Saturday Morning Cartoon type of fiction. Fluid is fluid. I'm relatively sure I saw something like this in a movie in the last ten years. Edison (talk) 00:29, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Probably Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow. 24.2.176.64 (talk) 01:16, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Mercury poisoning

If there were a liquid metal other than Mercury, would it also be poisonous? --Masatran (talk) 18:31, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

No, that's not a logical conclusion. For example, Gallium melts in the hand and it is non-toxic. Mercury has a low melting point, and it also happens to be toxic, but those two facts are independent and not logically connected. —Keenan Pepper 18:44, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Does Gallium conduct electricity? If not: Are all liquids that conduct electricity poisonous? --Masatran (talk) 18:50, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Salt water conducts reasonably well. It depends on your application. How conductive do you need it to be? APL (talk) 19:34, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
I'm not sure where you got this idea that liquid metals relate to toxicity but it's not the case. Toxicity depends on what your body does with it (or often doesn't do with it). For example, water is a liquid and it conducts electricity, but it is not poisonous. As for metals, there are several metallic ions there which are not poisonous (at least in the correct quantities). Regards, CycloneNimrod talk?contribs? 19:36, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Ahem. Water is an excellent insulator. --Milkbreath (talk) 21:46, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
I know. That's why I said salt water. -- APL —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.2.176.64 (talk) 01:15, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
I know you know. That's why I appended to Cyclonenim's thing. Now we all know. --Milkbreath (talk) 01:37, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Oh yea, I didn't notice that Cylconenim mentioned water. Sorry. -- APL —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.2.176.64 (talk) 02:59, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
No prob, Bob. --Milkbreath (talk) 03:03, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
The OP seems to be committing the illicit minor fallacy. All A is B, all A is C, therefore all C is B - where A = mercury, B = toxic and C = liquid metal (or conductive liquids in his/hers second post). --Mark PEA (talk) 19:47, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
(ec) I don't know about gallium specifically, but most metals do conduct electricity. (Because they are held together with metallic bonds, where electrons are only loosely-held.) To get to the real meat of your question, though, you want to know "Why is mercury toxic?" I'm sorry I don't have a reference, but as I understand it, mercury poisoning is due mainly to the fact that mercury is not readily excreted (it bioaccumulates). This causes problems because mercury likes to bind to sulfur atoms, and sulfur atoms are a vital component to the activity of a number of proteins (e.g cysteine proteases). -- 128.104.112.147 (talk) 19:47, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
OK, I'll be the bad guy this time. Both "poisonous" and "conductive" are relative terms. Everything is poisonous at a certain dosage, and everything is conductive given enough voltage. I know that sounds like I'm just trying to be a jerk, but if you want good answers on the Science Desk, you've got to ask good questions. To try to answer, no, not all liquids that are good conductors of electricity are dangerous poisons, and neither are all metals that are liquid at temeratures that the human body can tolerate well. --Milkbreath (talk) 19:51, 2 June 2008 (UTC)


Liquid mercury is not very toxic at all. Liquid mecury is not readily absorbed into the body. From Mercury poisoning:

”Cases of systemic toxicity from accidental swallowing are rare, and attempted suicide via intravenous injection does not appear to result in systemic toxicity“ ... In humans, approximately 80% of inhaled mercury vapour is absorbed via the respiratory tract where it enters the circulatory system and is distributed throughout the body.[17] Chronic exposure by inhalation, even at low concentrations in the range 0.7–42 μg/m3, has been shown in case control studies to cause effects such as tremors, impaired cognitive skills, and sleep disturbance in workers

The vapour is toxic but not the liquid, this is essentially because of the relative reactivities of the two.Shniken1 (talk) 04:45, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Keep in mind that organometallic, or other liquid/solvable forms of mercury, can be extremely toxic (see dimethylmercury). Someguy1221 (talk) 04:48, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Toy helicopter

I want to buy a toy helicopter to get an understanding of aircraft. Is there any inexpensive model that has a control to fly forward? I am looking at Apache Havoc but I don't think it can fly forward. --Masatran (talk) 18:46, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

If you're looking for an understanding of aircraft broadly, then a helicopter isn't really a good choice -- that's a much more specific form of aircraft based on different principles. I'm afraid I can't advise regarding selection of an r/c copter if that's what you want to continue with. I will note that weighting the nose of a very cheap rc copter will tend to cause it to fly forward, though I doubt this constitutes the control you want. — Lomn 19:09, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Here, for example, is a r/c copter with forward flight control -- but said forward flight is accomplished by pusher propellors, not the standard means of helicopter propulsion (again falling afoul of your "understanding of aircraft" criteria). — Lomn 19:16, 2 June 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lomn (talk • contribs)

[edit] journal article without subscription

I am trying to access an article from a journal to which my university (u of oregon) does not subscribe. Our library also does not stock the print edition of this journal for any newer dates than 1988, so my only option is an inter-library loan and this usually takes over a week. I need the article sooner than that for a presentation, so I was hoping that someone here might be able to access it and provide it somehow.

The article is titled "The Redfield equation in condensed-phase quantum dynamics" by Pollard and Friesner, Adv. Chem. Phys. 1996

The article is cited by every other article I've been reading so I'd like to go directly to the source. My apologies if this request is a breach of wikipedia guidelines. Man It's So Loud In Here (talk) 19:17, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

I think it would probably breach copyright in some way to comply with your request, so I'd advise you to buy the article instead. Regards, CycloneNimrod talk?contribs? 19:33, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
As helpful as the above suggestion is, I'd like to think there is some site on the web where people do fulfill requests such as this one. Does anyone know of such a site? Man It's So Loud In Here (talk) 19:57, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
A helpful hint would not be posting such requests on very public boards such as this one. I'd consider asking elsewhere. Sorry I could not be more illegalhelpful. Regards, CycloneNimrod talk?contribs? 20:51, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Perhaps if you were to write the author(s) directly, they could get a slave post-doc to send you a copy? Here's one of them. --Sean 22:01, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Thank you very much for your help, I think that that will work very well. I just didn't see paying $30 as a viable option. If someone would like to delete this section, that would be fine with me. Man It's So Loud In Here (talk) 22:14, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

You can also try Wikipedia:WikiProject Resource Exchange, either posting to the requests page or asking one of the members. You can count me out though, as I don't have a subscription to that series. Someguy1221 (talk) 22:15, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

It is not illegal to distribute single copies of articles for academic purposes—it easily falls under fair use (even if might be a breach of user policies for the journals, but even then, most journals are pretty lenient when you are talking about very small-scale, not-for-profit, one-off stuff). My university doesn't carry e-copies of that one either (which surprises me), otherwise I'd be happy to send you a copy. Your best bet might be e-mailing one of the authors, if you want it quickly. It seems like a pretty rare journal. --Captain Ref Desk (talk) 22:15, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

My university's library claims to have a paper copy, though the online catalog says that particular issue is shelved at the physical chemistry laboratory rather than at the main library. I can try to find it tomorrow, though at 58 pages(!) according to BL Direct it sounds like a pain to scan. —Ilmari Karonen (talk) 23:21, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your offer but I would hate for you to scan in the 58 pages, that sounds like a real pain in the rear. I emailed the author and put in a request for an inter-library loan, patience is a virtue right? Man It's So Loud In Here (talk) 04:44, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Liquid state of water

Why is water a liquid and hydrogen sulphide a gas, when hydrogen sulphide's Mr is nearly twice as much as that of water's? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.158.94.171 (talk) 19:28, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

The conventional answer is hydrogen bonding. The hydrogens from one water molecule really like to bind to the lone pair electrons of an oxygen from a different water molecule. They can't do this in the gas phase, so the boiling point is much higher that it would be otherwise, as you have to add in enough energy to break all of those hydrogen bonds before the water will boil. Sulfur, for various reasons, doesn't participate all that well in hydrogen bonding, so hydrogen sulfide doesn't get the boiling point boost. -- 128.104.112.147 (talk) 19:33, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
The reason for H2S not having hydrogen bonds is due to the small difference in electronegativity of S and H atoms, where as O and H atoms have a much larger difference in electronegativity. --Mark PEA (talk) 19:52, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Interesting. The density of water is almost the same as the density of liquid oxygen but the density of hydrogen sulfide is much less than the density of sulfer (which is approximately 2 g/cc. At least I think it is. Something else I read said it was 5.4 g/cc). Em3ryguy (talk) 20:43, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
In liquid sulfur the atoms are held together tightly with short covalent bonds, which is not the case in hydrogen sulfide liquid. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 21:58, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Benzodiazepines and barbiturates at the GABAa receptor

GABAA_receptor#Agonists only vaguely describes the difference between the action of benzodiazepines and barbiturates at the GABAa receptor. Normally I would simply edit the section; however, I'm afraid that I don't understand the difference all that well myself. I apologize for the somewhat vague question, but can anyone explain exactly what the difference is in the way these two classes of drugs generally bind to and modulate this receptor? If anyone knows of reliable external sources that explain this well, a link or two would be greatly appreciated; if not, an explanation would be greatly appreciated. CrazyChemGuy (talk) 22:50, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Benzodiazepines bind to the aptly named "benzodiazepine binding site" located at the outer intersection of α and γ subunits of GABAa receptors, while barbiturates bind inside the Cl- pore on the α and β subunits (see this diagram, from Purves et al's Neuroscience). Benzodiazepines increase the probability that the channel will open, while barbiturates cause the channel to remain open longer once triggered (see the section entitled "The GABAA receptor is the major molecular target for the action of many drugs in the brain" here from Siegel et al's Basic Neurochemistry). Hope that helps! St3vo (talk) 01:51, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] strobe lights

how can i make a strobe light with a the flash lights found in cameras? do i need a different capacitator?wat is the amount of electricity needed to run it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.14.124.175 (talk) 23:11, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

I strongly advise you not to make the attemp[t. The reason is that the capacitor which powers a photographer's electronic flash store a large amount of energy at a high voltage. It is sufficient to stop your heart if you accidentally get a jolt while experimenting. This is not for the amateur or novice to experiment with. Edison (talk) 00:23, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

u didn't answer my question.....how do i make a strobelight using the flash on a camera......i wasn't asuming i needed that big of a capacitator....i was thinking of using a smaller one..... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.14.124.175 (talk) 00:51, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

I suggest an alternate method: Shine a flashlight thru a fan. You can vary the fan speed to control the strobe speed. You can also use paper and tape to block all but one of the openings between the blades to slow the strobe down further. Black paper would be best to absorb light. StuRat (talk) 02:41, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Edison was right. Our Edison, not Thomas Alva. I googled and found a site that gives a schematic and all, but it carries a warning that you're looking at 350 volts across a big electrolytic, saying that "it won't kill you" but will give you a "nasty shock". They are wrong, it will kill you. Get 350 volts hand-to-hand and it's sayonara muchachos, maybe. Arcking and sparking at those levels is a serious hazard, and you'd better be wearing a helmet too if you get a big filter cap in backwards. What you want to do is way not safe. --Milkbreath (talk) 03:18, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
None of the above are really helpful replies. There's a big difference between a xenon tube flash and StuRat's suggestion of using a flashlight+fan, which doesn't give you adequate flash brightness with short enough duration to freeze an image, if that's what the OP wants.
Examples of do-it-yourself strobe light circuits can be found here, even an example of an adjustable one.
Milkbreath is right about capacitors being dangerous, but also wrong in that voltage doesn't kill you, current does. Electrostatic generators such as a Van de Graaff generator generate thousands of volts and are safe to touch because they don't actually store enough charge to generate much of a current. Generally when a spark arcs from your fingertips, that's about 30,000 volts per centimeter required to make the arc. =Axlq 04:39, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
One could just as well point out that a roomful of 12-volt lead-acid batteries in series-parallel like they have down at the phone company can deliver thousands of amps, but at 48 volts they are harmless to humans. Of course it's the current that kills you, but that pat statement both belies the complexity of the relationship among the factors involved in producing electric shock, and reveals a simplistic conception of it in the one mouthing it. Static electricity is a whole nother aminal and is not pertinent here. If I get across a few hundred volts as my final act, please put the following on my tombstone: "It was the voltage that killed him." --Milkbreath (talk) 11:11, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
I think the unhelpfulness was well-placed, since it's non-intuitive that anything in a camera flash could kill you and the poster's writing style suggests youth. If someone asked "how do u fit a knife in2 an electric sokket?", I'd also hesitate to answer, the gene pool be damned. --Sean 09:55, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
An electronics magazine I subscribed to decades ago had an editorial specifically warning electronics experimenters not to try to repair, modify, or in general experiment with the electronic flashes used by photographers, and cited a friend, an experienced electronic worker, who was killed by one. A charged capacitor at several hundred volts has eneough energy to cause death, far beyond the energy or available current from a typical high voltage static shock. At the same time, the source of the danger does not look as intimidating as what's up on a utility pole or inside a glass tube TV set. It is the type of device that may not give a second chance. The questioner did not give the impression of having the training or experience or knowledge of necessary safety measures to work with high voltages. Edison (talk) 13:57, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

I recently got a nice shock from a flash from a camera that had been off for at least half an hour. Stupidly, I forgot completely about the flash capacitor. I put my thumb across the terminals, got a shock and threw the camera across the room. My whole arm was all pins-and-needles tingly for hours. I'm imagine that if I'd somehow managed to touch it with both hands it would have been even more uncomfortable. APL (talk) 20:02, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

A bit more on the mechanical (fan) system I started to describe. You can mask out all but a small circle on the fan and use a laser pointer aimed at that hole. StuRat (talk) 00:49, 4 June 2008 (UTC)


[edit] June 3

[edit] Better name for 'africanization'

Somehow the author chose not to say 'desertification' in this NYT article. Probably motivated by the fact not all African landscape is a desert. But what is the correct term for it? 217.168.1.158 (talk) 00:01, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Simple: drought. The article is about a drought in Spain, but it is using the ongoing drought conditions in Africa as well as the centuries-old shift from lush greenery to deserts to give the drought a name. -- kainaw™ 01:55, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
I don't agree. A drought is usually a short-term event with few permanent implications, while desertification means a permanent shift in the climate of a region towards a dryer climate. This tends to happen over centuries or millenia, although global warming may serve to help things along. StuRat (talk) 02:35, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
I used drought because I saw nothing in the article that justifies desertification. They are describing a drought and using "africanization" to make the reader think all of Spain will be a desert in a few days. -- kainaw™ 12:22, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
The author says "officials visibly stiffen when asked about the "Africanization" of Spain’s climate — a term now common among scientists", but I don't buy it. Doing a Google Scholar search for "Africanization climate -honeybee" shows nothing about weather in the first page. "Africanization" usually refers to renaming places like Victoria Falls to Mosi-oa-Tunya. Her assertion about the term is perhaps an example of the rhetorical technique known as "making stuff up". --Sean 10:11, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
A bit more luck with ghits in Spanish [26] Can't say how many of those are scientific, though. --76.111.32.200 (talk) 14:54, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Inverted icicle mechanism

Ice cube tendril growths
Ice cube tendril growths

Usually when I make ice cubes, I fill the ice tray from the tap. A few months ago I decided to make ice cubes from some highly purified water (1 ppm total dissolved solids). To my surprise, two of the ice cubes exhibited inverted icicles; tendrils of ice that grew upward as the water froze. This was such a strange phenomenon that I decided to take the picture to the right. Click on it to see the full details.

Does anybody know what mechanism might have caused this?

My best guess is that the water must have froze around the edges first, leaving an opening in the top. As the water froze further, it expanded, pushing water out the hole, and the edge of the hole kept freezing to build the tendril higher.

I'm skeptical that this is what happened. If the water formed a frozen tube to grow in, it should have frozen shut well before the thin part of the tendril could grow so long.

Any ideas? =Axlq 00:10, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Looks like an Ice spike--Lenticel (talk) 00:15, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Kudos to Lenticel for showing the amazing range of phenomena which have Wikipedia articles. Edison (talk) 00:21, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Question: what is it about tap-water that prevents this? Zain Ebrahim (talk) 00:34, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Impurities in the tap water acts as a Ice nucleus so the water freezes before an ice spike can form.--Lenticel (talk) 02:00, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
I have seen a spike in an ice cube made with water that (depending on who filled the tray) was either straight from the tap or had gone through an ordinary household water filter. Not distilled or specially purified water. --Anonymous, 23:50 UTC, June 3, 2008.

Amazing. I second the kudos to Lenticel. My question has been answered. Wikipedia really does have an article on everything! I guess my hypothesis on how the formation came about was correct, too. Thanks. =Axlq 04:14, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Serious question about masturbation

If you consider that a hand feels like different from a vagina, should we expect that people who maturbate too much have a problem with 'normal' sex? GoingOnTracks (talk) 00:28, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Why should we? Boxers also feel different from a vagina, but not going commando doesn't seem to cause an issue for people. — Lomn 00:50, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
What do you mean have a problem with? Is it (A) you mean they do not enjoy it as much, have something against it, or (B) they're no good at it (there is a problem they have)?
If you mean A then it's entirely possible and very often the case that those who do it too often simply don't have access to intercourse. Of course that doesn't mean that one who has access to it will not do it on there own, but statistically men who have sex masturbate less often.
If you mean B then it could be there is some problem with them having it. Or again simply that they don't have access to it. In all honesty though you'd probably be hard pressed to find a male who would prefer solo over the alternative if both were options. Chris M. (talk) 05:31, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
There may be the issue of what sex columnist Dan Savage calls the "death grip", in which the masturbator uses a great deal of force and friction when masturbating, and becomes so accustomed to it that no lesser stimulation will do. In these cases, no actual intercourse is going to be enough to get them to climax, which can obviously be problematic. But that's more a question of habit than anything else, though, and easily avoided. In itself, masturbation isn't going to affect anyone's sexual prowess, and in any case, it's very common for people in sexual relationships to masturbate anyway -- in some cases precisely because a hand feels different from intercourse, variety being the spice of life and all that. (The mistake lies in thinking that because something is different, one of them must be "better" on some absolute scale and therefore always preferable -- but in real life, people tend to prefer different things and sensations at different times.)
As for males who exclusively or almost exclusively prefer masturbation to intercourse, Chris -- as it happens, the latest Savage Love column features a letter from just such a man. Certainly an exceptional individual, I'm sure, but still. -- Captain Disdain (talk) 09:06, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Platypus and falsifying the nested hierarchy

Assume we are trying to falsify the established phylogeny of common ancestry. The platypus can lay eggs, and also has venom. Both are not common in mammals. Why does this not violate the nested hierarchy? After all, if we were to find a human with a plant cell wall, it would falsify the phylogeny right? Why not the platypus? I think I know the answer already, but I want to hear more... ScienceApe (talk) 01:17, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Platypus#Evolution was a useful read and could help explain some things. Chris M. (talk) 05:34, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Egg laying is an ancestral character that other mammals (except the echidna) have lost, but the platypus has retained. The poisonous spur is a derived character that is unique to the platypus (among extant species). Thus (put very simplistically) there is no "violation of the nested hierarchy". Now, if it were found that the platypus produced venom in exactly the same way (anatomically and chemically) as some distantly related placental mammal, that would create a problem; because that would imply that the venom-producing character was due to common ancestry, not convergent evolution. However, the few venomous mammals have poisonous bites, something that is quite different from the platypus leg spur.--Eriastrum (talk) 19:25, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Is wikipedia a conscious entity?

Terrence Sejnowski considered a similar question about the entire Internet some time ago. Wikipedia is more organized than the entire Internet. Wiki links on a page on some topic try to define the subject in terms of more fundamental concepts. This is similar to when the brain perceives something. Then a pattern is recognized which consists of more basic patterns which in turn consist of even simpler patterns etc. etc.

I'm not suggesting that wikipedia "understands" the contents of its own pages. Instead, the entirety of all the wikipedia pages with their interdependence may give rise to conscious experiences. A wiki page will simply be a pattern that could be part of some larger pattern that perhaps gives rise to some subjective experience. Count Iblis (talk) 01:35, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

It depends on how you define consciousness, of course. John Searle would say definitely no, and I'm inclined to agree, in this case—where does the consciousness come into being, other than in the fact that it is a system used by conscious entities?
I think you could say that it is easy to abstract Wikipedia—via metonymy—as if it were a conscious entity, as if Wikipedia answered your questions, as if Wikipedia understood. But it doesn't—you're just ignoring the people who really do the work, abstracting them into the system in which they operate, taking part of the whole as the whole (taking the site to be the same thing as the many networks, social and technical, that makes the site work). Wikipedia, the site, knows no patterns. The human beings that use it, do.
Wikipedia isn't answering your question, I am. I am a human being. I am sitting in a green chair in a room with green walls with a green bed in a little suburb in the Massachusetts (you know, I never noticed how much green was in here, until now). Don't give Wikipedia credit for something I'm doing! ;-) --98.217.8.46 (talk) 02:20, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Wikipedia gives credit to volunteers. Check Wikipedia:About —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ranemanoj (talk • contribs) 04:01, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Sometimes I joke with friends saying that eventually a bot will be created that will be able to fully understand context and will scan the entirety of Wikipedia and find the underlying pattern linking all of the articles, "truth" :). Then, the bot can simply create random articles until one matches it and we can solve all of the world unanswered questions. Chris M. (talk) 05:25, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
(In response to OP) You might like to have a look at "The Emperor's New Mind" by Roger Penrose in which he argues that there is something inherently non-algorithmic about minds and that complexity doesn't automatically lead to consciousness (if I got that right). It's a fairly dense book though. ReluctantPhilosopher (talk) 09:24, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
We have an article about his (and Stuart Hameroff's) hypothesis, too: Orch-OR. If they're right, then nothing like the internet or Wikipedia could be conscious. --Allen (talk) 14:26, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
If wikipedia were a conscious entity, what is it conscious of? What stimulus does wikipedia respond to? I'm not familiar with Sejnowski's work, but I have encountered theories of consciousness ascribing personality traits, intentionality and propositional attitudes to large organized systems. A nice exemplar is a corporation. One reason this is a good example is because it exists in an environment (the market) in which it competes with other similar 'organisms' for resources. If we are to treat wikipedia like an organism, what is its environment? what stimulus does it respond to? If it's conscious, what is it conscious of? --Shaggorama (talk) 04:59, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Different angle: An intelligence can emerge from dumb parts. Our cells are dumb, but together they form an intelligence (without knowing it!). So could all humans together form a single intelligence (without the indivuduals knowing it)? They would have to be able to communicate, just like brain cells passing on 'impulses' that cause a reaction, which causes impulses to other individuals, rippling through humanity. Speech already does that. Books (and other printed stuff such as newspapers) helped spread the ripples further. And eventually faster. Radio and tv added to that. And then came the Internet, greatly increasing the scope and speed. But is simple communication enough? What constitutes intelligence? At the very least, there should be a method that creates a single structure that develops a sense of 'I'. And Wikipedia does indeed do something like that. So can Wikipedia be conscious? Can a human brain be conscious without it's surroundings (including the body it occupies)? An intelligence isn't something isolated. So for Wikipedia or the Internet to be conscious it needs at least the humans who are an integral part of it (its 'sensors'?). Who in turn need their surroundings to survive. But where is the sense of 'I' located? If Wikipedia becomes conscious, what does it think it is? Who do we think we are? Our bodies? Our brains? Or is that because we are selfconscious? What does a dog think it is? Does it have a more holistic view of itself because it is not self-conscious? (Or is it really not?) And if we can't even fathom the consciousness of a dog, then what chances do we have with something so different from biological intelligence? Or does that actually make it easier? Can we look for signs of intelligence in the Internet superstructure, thus understand intelligence better, and as a result ourselves?
Sorry, more questions, but that's what you're likely to get when you ask a philosophical question. But it sounds rather gaia, doesn't it? :)
Oh, and will this thread spread through the Internet and cause it to become selfconscious? DirkvdM (talk) 08:03, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
I don't see how Wikipedia, in itself, could be considered conscious under any theory of conscious, or at least any more conscious than a rock. Unlike a human, or the Chinese Room, or a neuron, or even a thermostat, Wikipedia doesn't process any information. It just sits there. It contains information, but so does any book. It inspires people to do a lot of information processing around it and change it accordingly, but I don't know any theory of consciousness where that would matter. (MediaWiki processes information, of course, but it isn't Wikipedia itself.) --Allen (talk) 15:41, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Help with irrational fear

This question has been removed. Per the reference desk guidelines, the reference desk is not an appropriate place to request medical, legal or other professional advice, including any kind of medical diagnosis, prognosis, or treatment recommendations. For such advice, please see a qualified professional.
This question has been removed. Per the reference desk guidelines, the reference desk is not an appropriate place to request medical, legal or other professional advice, including any kind of medical diagnosis or prognosis, or treatment recommendations. For such advice, please see a qualified professional. --~~~~

[edit] birds and current

why do not birds feel current while sitting on high voltage wires? and wat if we some person made to hang on the same wires without having any contact with earth?Lovindhawan (talk) 08:21, 3 June 2008 (UTC)lovindhawan

That is because when birds site on a high voltage wire their entire body potential becomes equal to the wire's potential and there is no current flowing through their body since they are not in contact with anything else which could be at a different potential. If some person was made to hang on the same wires without having any contact with earth, they would similarly feel no electric shock. ReluctantPhilosopher (talk) 08:34, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
They probably do feel something, as would a person in the same position, if the voltage is high enough. A field is produced in the space around the wire 120 times a second, a strong field if it's transmission lines. This will move electrons in the body. The birds don't get fried by the electricity running in the wire because there is practically no potential difference between their two feet, the resistance of that extent of transmission line being essentially zero ohms. --Milkbreath (talk) 10:23, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Which amounts to the same thing, namely that the only potential difference across the body of a bird sitting on a wire is across its two feet, which is not enough to cause a significant current flow given the bird's resistance; this changes if the bird's body is grounded somehow. ReluctantPhilosopher (talk) 11:20, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
At a high-enough voltage, corona effects start to be important, though. The bird sitting on the wire represents a sharp point which will readily create corona and this (or the related charging currents in and out of the bird) would be uncomfortable, injurious, or fatal to the bird. That's why you mostly see birds sitting on local distribution wires (up to, say 33KV) but essentially never on long-haul transmission lines (at 110KV and higher).
Atlant (talk) 11:50, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Hmmm, that was insightful, thanks! ReluctantPhilosopher (talk) 13:18, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
As for a human doing the same thing, check out this amazing video: [27]. --Sean 10:32, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
That is such a cool video, thanks!--Shantavira|feed me 12:39, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] greenhouse effect

is sulphur dioxidea greenhouse gas? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.99.88.195 (talk) 09:03, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Not according to the IPCC list of greenhouse gases but i'm sure it's not beneficial to have lots of it in the atmosphere. Regards, CycloneNimrod talk?contribs? 10:58, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
I suspect that it is probably not listed because sulphur dioxide does not remain in the atmsophere for long before it is washed out as acid rain which is a much bigger problem for this chemical. Because it is heavier than air and reacts with water to form suphuric acid which then precipitates out, it does not get in to the upper atmsophere in large quantites. SpinningSpark 11:22, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
If I recall from my environmental chemistry module, sulfur dioxide may actually have an inverse greenhouse effect because it induces cloud formation and hence increases the Earth's albedo and hence the amount of solar radiation reflected away. But I may be thinking of something else - and the other negative effects of sulfur dioxide (ie acid rain and asthma) make it an undesirable pollutant anyway. ~ mazca talk 13:09, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Nobel chemistry prize winner and atmosphere expert Paul J. Crutzen has a fairly controversial idea of putting massive amounts of sulphur into the upper atmosphere to put a radical stop to climate change. Just very recently, Tim Flannery went and suggested a similar plan for the same reason. -- Captain Disdain (talk) 14:49, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Hi. If I remember correctly, volcanoes can eject sulfur into the atmosphere, briefly cooling the atmosphere for as much as 1C. Mount Pinatubo is a recent example, while prehistoric eruptions such as Mount Toba made temperatures so low it wiped out more than 99.9% of all human civilization. Hope this helps. Thanks. ~AH1(TCU) 22:42, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
I believe volcanoes do indeed release sulfur, but I thought it was the dust thrown up blocking the sun that causes the global cooling. It may be a combination, of course. --Tango (talk) 23:56, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
I believe the form of sulphur that causes cloud formation is dimethyl sulphide (I am British...) or DMS

[edit] How do Fleas find their hoasts?

How do adult Fleas find their hoasts? Do they use their sense of smell or some kind of thermography? I remmember that fleas used to be drawn to warm places when I had a small flea invasion in my home (gone in to days after applying a "spot-on" anti-flea substance to my dog). Mieciu K (talk) 10:26, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Take a look at the flea article which has all the answers to this. SpinningSpark 11:26, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Ok, thanks. Mieciu K (talk) 18:37, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] About career options

–NOW, AS I'M HEADING FOR CLASS 11TH, I WISH TO TAKE SCIENCE STREAM. PLEASE TELL ME ABOUT THE SUBJECTS THAT WILL BE BENEFICIAL, AS I AIM FOR ENGINEERING & THEN MBA. ALSO TELL ME ABOUT OTHER DEGREES AS MBA. DO GIVE ME INFORMATION ABOUT IIT-JEE, ENGINEERING, MBA & OTHER COURSES.TELL ME ABOUT THE PREPARATIONS. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.182.115.66 (talk) 10:42, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

You will be better advised to visit career counselling websites rather than ask at the Wikipedia reference desk. Since you seem to be from India, sites like Rediff might have useful information of a general nature, and educational sites based in India may have more specific information you are looking for. And don't write in capital letters, it amounts to shouting. ReluctantPhilosopher (talk) 10:48, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
In general the subjects of importance for engineering will be Mathematics, Physics, English Language, and Computer Programming.

[edit] Colleges near Mumbai

PLEASE GIVE ME THE LIST OF SCIENCE COLLEGES IN MUMBAI IN WESTERN -SUBURBS. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.182.115.66 (talk) 10:53, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

You can sort out from List of Mumbai Colleges.
And can you hit that CAPS LOCK button once? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.129.237.147 (talk) 11:39, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] how do u fit a knife in2 an electric sokket?

how? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.10.79.163 (talk) 12:11, 3 June 2008 (UTC)


simply use the knife for a self-lobotomy first and you cannot go wrong! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.144.96.61 (talk) 12:18, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Pretty much the same way you stuff beans up your nose. -- Coneslayer (talk) 12:19, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
I can confirm first-hand that beans up the nose is a bad idea. 81.93.102.185 (talk) 12:28, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Try phoning the local mental heath unit, I'm sure they have a lovely padded room you can practice in to your heart's content. --Tango (talk) 13:45, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
EZ U go 2 a Master Electrician, complete an apprenticeship and take classes where they'll tell you all about patch panels and breakers. Then you become a licensed electrician, go to your basement, find your patch panel, switch off that magic mains breaker, protect it against some wisea## switching it back on and can finally put anything you d## well please into your sockets. It is highly recommended to remove any foreign object from outlets before switching the power back on. If for no other reason than to prevent severe head injuries due to your spouse beating you about the head. --76.111.32.200 (talk) 22:01, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

this appears to be a silly comment on another comment from a question on this desk from a few days ago, about making a strobe light. Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Science#strobe_lights. Ilikefood (talk) 20:49, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Order

If there's an order called Carnivora, why isn't there one called Herbivora? Interactive Fiction Expert/Talk to me 12:14, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

According to Carnivora, there is quite a big difference between being a member of that order and being a carnivore. While most members are carnivores, not all are, and plenty of carnivores aren't members (all the non-mammals, for a start). It's best not to read too much into the names of these things - there are probably historical reasons for the name that don't really apply to its current usage. --Tango (talk) 13:51, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
While Tango's reply is completely right, I think there's another assumption in the question which is worth examining. As humans we are very ready to divide things into two by some feature, and then at some level equate the two categories. Two particular examples which come to mind are vertebrate vs invertebrate and dicotyledon vs monocotyledon. While I don't think 'invertebrate' has been counted as a taxon for a long time (I've a feeling that Linnaeus had a 4-way classification of mammals, birds, reptiles and Ver (Lat. 'worm') meaning invertebrates), until recently dicots and monocots were simple the two divisions (or orders, in some classifications) of angiosperms, whereas now the monocots are regarded as a clade but the dicots are polyphyletic - i.e. a collection of different clades which do not belong together.
My point is that even if Carnivora really were distinguished by carnivorous habit, (which is conceivable, even though it happens not to be true), this would give no reason to suppose that non-carnivores formed a similarly related group; but our penchant for binary classification might still incline us to expect such a classification. --ColinFine (talk) 20:05, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Oil crisis and food crisis, the next 50 years.

The oil will dwindle down in the next 50 years and become too expensive, to combat this I see a shift towards Bio-diesel . Now I read that the world is running out of food part of which I suspect is rising fuel costs.

[28]

So , in the next 50 years I see a dilemma , not enough land for food crops AND fuel crops and an ever increasing population.

Is there a sensible solution to this?

78.144.96.61 (talk) 12:16, 3 June 2008 (UTC)andy

  • Yes, possibly. There are many reliable scientists who state that bio-fuels are not the way forward, for the reasons you have mentioned and the fact that it is not actually as evironmentally friendly as it is made out to be. So many are of the opinion that renewable sources of energy are the way out. Wind, Wave and Hydroelectric being the main ones. Nuclear power is also less damaging to the environment, but iranium will run out eventually (though not for a very long time) and the possibility of an accident resulting disaster must be taken into consideration. There is not really a solution to the population problem. We can kill billions of people but that would be illegal, inhumane and cruel. We could follow China's exemple and offer incentives to people to only have one child but that is also regarded as cruel and should not be allowed. So, we having thought that we had risen above nature find that we can only fall back. Other animal's population is regulated by the food supply, and this was something we historicall never worried about but now we are beggining to realise that our population will be, in the end regulated by our food supply. This will be called awful and terrible by people but the will realise that there is very little thay can do. The poorer countries will be affected first as they do not have the money to buy enough food for their populations, the richer countries will try to help but will find that if they do so then they will not have enough money to buy food for their people. To make matters worse the global communications we have set up make us think that any food trouble is far away and we have never had to say 'I will only have one child becausee I cannot feed two' it is a foriegn idea. So we will continue to expand and noone will be able to tell us not to as that would be cruel! So humanity is doomed! (by our intelligence) :) Or we could colonise another planet but with no air there is no food so earth would have to supply another planet too. (Unless we found one that could support life). Harland1 (t/c) 12:45, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
  • "Iranium" ? Is that what Iran is using for it's nuclear weapons program ? :-) StuRat (talk) 00:15, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
  • When considering overpopulation, it's important to remember that much of the developed world is actually at, or approaching, sub-replacement fertility rates. If it weren't for immigration, the populations would actually be reducing. If you want to reduce overpopulation, you have to do so in poorer countries, not rich ones. One way to do that may be to help them become developed, it seems the incentive to have large families reduces when you are reasonably wealthy (I'm sure plenty of studies have been done into this, but I haven't read them, so I'm not sure of the exact reasons). --Tango (talk) 13:36, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
  • That's less a scientific than a political and economical questions. I strongly believe that we have the science to smoothly move to a high-tech, mostly clean lifestyle based primarily on renewable energy - wind, sun, hydro, tidal, geothermic, biomass. The sooner we start, the easier the transition will be. Solar warm-water is cost-effective in most of the industrialized countries even now - in many the advantage is compelling. Go to Greece, and you will see a simple solar-thermic system on nearly every roof. Wind is a largely unused reserve - Denmark is producing 20% of its electricity with wind, and has yet to significantly tap offshore wind resources. However, as in all large economical shifts, the incumbents are expected to lose, which results in a certain inertia. In Germany, the influential car industry lobbies for stricter environmental laws concerning old cars (to entice people to buy new cars), but against strict absolute limits on emissions and mileage, as German cars are on the large and heavy side (for European cars). If I own a couple of oil fields, my economic interest wil likely by against competition from other energy sources. The US is spending about US$10 per citizen per week for the war in Iraq - imagine that amount of money going into support for a shift to renewable energies. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 13:23, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Significant problems still exist with alternate sources, especially with respect to intermittancy and energy storage. The Denmark examples is a good illustration - even at "only" 20% wind-based the national grid is inherently unstable because the wind doesn't always blow. Denmark is forced to rely on balancing its grid with imports and exports to other nations with more traditional power sources. See Wind power#Penetration. Rmhermen (talk) 16:33, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Indeed. Denmark is a) small, so local fluctuations don't even out, and b) very flat, so pumped hydro is not an option. To solve this, they export energy to Norway, which has an enormous potential of hydro (both conventional and pumped) that can conveniently buffer irregular supplies. But these are not fundamental scientific questions, but part engineering and part economical. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 16:51, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
  • The problem is reasonably easy to overcome, there are lots of other sources of energy, at the moment they are simply more expensive, so no-one bothers much with them. Once the cost of fossil fuels gets high enough, it will make good business sense to shift to other sources, so people will do so. Common sense would suggest shifting *before* we run into trouble (which would be about now), but unfortunately business sense and common sense don't quite match up, so there will probably be a short period of difficulty before the switch is completed. --Tango (talk) 13:36, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
There is, in general, more than enough land for most purposes. Water for irrigation, people to tend the crops, money, and so on tends to be more of a problem.--Fangz (talk) 20:37, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Your assessment that overpopulation is the source of the problems is spot on. Energy we can possibly get around, as almost unlimited nuclear energy could be made available if we wanted to build the plants (I suggest building them in stable underground sites in unpopulated areas to protect the population from any radioactivity). This could provide electricity for electric cars, heating, air conditioning, etc. Food is a more serious long-term issue, as food production is limited by the amount of farm land, which is finite (and which we would prefer doesn't expand to include all of the remaining rain forests). (Hydroponic food is an exception to the land requirement, but is far too expensive to feed the starving people of the world.) Poor nations, on the other hand, have the potential for their populations to increase infinitely, unless limited by starvation, war, and disease (which we would also like to avoid). The question is, then, do we prefer to continue to limit population by starvation, war, and disease, or would we be willing to use coercive means to limit fertility ? I'd suggest a simple method, if someone is starving, only give them food if they agree to be sterilized. If they agree, they stop having children they can't feed. If they refuse, they starve, and also stop having children they can't feed. StuRat (talk) 00:30, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
And when they don't have enough children to work their farmland, they also starve... In most parts of the poor world, the decision to have large families is motivated by the apparent usefulness of free familial labor. No one wants to have children that they expect will starve to death. Dragons flight (talk) 03:10, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
A problem here is medical care and slow human adaption. People had loads of children because lots of them did die. But where modern medicine has stopped or reduced this problem culture hasn't suddenly changed to have fewer children. Actually, human fertility is designed to have about a dozen children per female. With modern medicine we need unnatural means (condoms, abortion) to keep our fertility drive in check. DirkvdM (talk) 08:35, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Solar power satellites, powering the production of hydrogen fuel from water. Use the land for food production, not fuel production. --arkuat (talk) 07:05, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

A problem with alternative energy sources that is often overlooked is that most of them (solar, wind, hydro, nuclear) are used with technologies that create electricity. But only 20% or less of our energy consumption is in the form of electricity. Another 20% is used by cars.
So what can we do?
  • switch to electric cars
  • use an intermediary, such as hydrogen
  • stop driving cars. Well, use them less. Or make them more fuel efficient (oddly, we're massively doing the opposite, driving ever heavier cars). Or drive them more fuel efficiently. Or reduce traffic jams. You get the point.
  • switch to biofuel
  • die
Or, of course, a combination of the above.
But a more specific answer to your question. Lately, I've read in several sources that there is plenty land, plus the technology, to grow both food and biofuel for everyone. But it's the same old story. The means to make this happen are present in rich countries, but since we don't own the poor countries, fuck 'm. Let them solve their own problems. Maybe decolonisation wasn't such a good idea after all? Note that that is a question, not a statement. DirkvdM (talk) 08:35, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] New Guinea forest wallaby

Is there an article on the New Guinea forest wallaby under a different name? There is the Black Dorcopsis which inhabits New Guinea but nowhere can I find the New Guinea forest wallaby (Dorcopsis veterum). It does exist [29]. Harland1 (t/c) 12:59, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

This page says that Dorcopsis veterum is a synonym of Dorcopsis muelleri. We have an article on D. muelleri (not much of one, admittedly) at Brown Dorcopsis. If you can add any information to the article, I'm sure it would be appreciated. Deor (talk) 16:41, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Thanks very much! Harland1 (t/c) 12:51, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Food/drink to help your memory

Have just read that smoking dope can reduce your memory capacity by up to 15%. Can this be compensated by regularly eating any food that stimulates your brain/memory area? Thanks for info. --AlexSuricata (talk) 13:09, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Cannabis reduces your short-term memory capacity, i'm not convinced it's as bad as 15% but it certainly does. I'm also unsure of long-term memory loss. There are many artificial ways of improving cognitive abilities including caffeine and other CNS stimulants but again, I don't know in terms of a percentage how this would work out. Regards, CycloneNimrod talk?contribs? 13:42, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
You can't just add performance increase and performance decrease percentages and pretend that there are no interaction effects! This is a complex system; these "performance variations" are averages over large sample sizes, and don't even begin to encapsulate the complexity of drug interactions with physical or mental abilities. Nimur (talk) 15:53, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Do Marsupial mammals have placentas?

I've read Marsupials and placenta, these articles said that marsupials do not have placentas. But do these animals have any primitive organ that structurally or functionally like a "primitive placenta"? Luuva (talk) 13:40, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Dont know about marsupials but look at these:http://io.uwinnipeg.ca/~simmons/16cm05/1116/34-19-AmnioticEgg-L.gif http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allantois Em3ryguy (talk) 15:01, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
According to marsupial: "The pregnant female develops a kind of yolk sac in her womb which delivers nutrients to the embryo." That would be the functional equivalent, in that in provides nutrients to the embryo, but it seems it works in a very different way. It sounds like store of nutrients that is created before or soon after conception, rather than being a link between the mother and embryo. --Tango (talk) 15:48, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
The placenta also provides oxygen and eliminates waste. Also, placental embryos possess both a placenta and a yolk sac. Em3ryguy (talk) 18:16, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit]  ??Lightning

Today it started raining in Mumbai. Before the rains there was lightning. During that time i witnessed a huge white coloured ball moving quickly in the clouds. It was flashing. When it appeared there was thunder. Can this be a lightning?? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 120.138.111.13 (talk) 15:58, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps it was ball lightning? --98.217.8.46 (talk) 16:03, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
It could have been clouds illuminated by a series of lightning strikes. I think that ball lightning is smaller than this sounds. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 22:20, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Glyceryl Trinitrate and Phlebotomy

I have been working as a phlebotomist for a year alongside university to help pay my nights out. Today on my way to a ward another phlebotomist was tellin gme that one day she was having problems finding a vein on a larger gentleman and that a young doctor gave her a spray bottle of Glyceryl Trinitrate/Nitroglycerine and sprayed it on the venipuncture site and Ta-da, the veins popped up. Is this true, is this safe etc? 92.0.228.141 (talk) 16:23, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

If the person doing it was a qualified doctor, they probably know better than the people here (unless there happens to be a doctor here, of course, which is entirely possible). I seem to remember hearing that one of the reasons for rubbing alcohol on the area first (in addition to sterilising it), is because it makes the veins easier to find. This is probably a similar idea. --Tango (talk) 16:37, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
(After ec)True, most definately. This is a "trick" of sorts usually employed when all else fails. Safe? Probably. Vasodilating nitrates are available without prescription in many places, and one single, topical application is trivial. BUT I couldn't find a study to categorically show safety, so ask the nearest Doctor before performing this trick. Fribbler (talk) 16:38, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Would it hurt more than performing the procedure without it? 92.0.228.141 (talk) 16:42, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
There is no reason why it would be more painful using nitrates. GTN merely dilates blood vessels. In fact the opposite may be the case, as there is less "poking-about" involved. Fribbler (talk) 16:46, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Are they available over the counter in pharmacies in the UK? Also, what would be the smallest needle which could be used (gauge wise) to allow safe collection of blood without rupturing blood vessels? The smallest we use is 23g —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.0.228.141 (talk) 16:55, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

GTN is an over-the-counter medication in the uk [30]. As for needle-bore calibre...I haven't a clue. Not my forte, I'm afraid. Thats a question for a senior phlebotomist or a doctor who takes bloods regularly.
Regarding needle calibre, it depends on technique, medical condition of the patient, and the intended use of the blood (and I assume the original poster intended to say, "...without rupturing blood CELLS", rather than "vessels"). Smaller-bore needles will increase risk of cell lysis, but this can be reduced by avoiding extreme suction. Might be a bigger issue in people with fragile red or white cells (e.g. leukemia). Also a bigger issue if trying to measure something like potassium that is particularly affected by hemolysis. Blood coagulation parameters seem pretty unaffected by small-bore needles based on this study.Lippi G, Salvagno GL, Montagnana M, Poli G, Guidi GC (October 2006). "Influence of the needle bore size on platelet count and routine coagulation testing". Blood Coagul. Fibrinolysis 17 (7): 557–61. doi:10.1097/01.mbc.0000245300.10387.ca. PMID 16988551. 
18 or 20 gauge is ideal for blood collection. A larger bore (gauge less than 18) makes damage to the blood vessel more likely, a smaller bore (gauge more than 20) makes hemolysis more likely. 23 gauge really is as small a bore as you'd want to use to collect blood, though you can use smaller bores for IV infusions. GIven that 18 gauge is more painful than 20, I think most phlebotomists would use 20 gauge as a default and mentally go up or down from there based on other intangibles. - Nunh-huh 05:13, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Zits

As I looked in the mirror this morning, a couple questions popped into my mind.

First of all, why do humans (or at least me) feel the need to pop/remove/otherwise destroy a zit, blemish, blister, scab or other such abnormality on the skin? My hypothesis would be that removing foreign objects on the skin (leeches, parasites etc.) may have been a mechanism in ancient times for mitigating the damage done by said parasite, but I'm curious as to why we don't recognize scabs/blisters/etc as parts of our bodies and lose the urge to pick at them.

Secondly, is there any real health detriment caused by zits? I know they look like hell, but does a seething white pustule really do any damage per se? The same goes for a generally bad complexion (oily skin, not-washing-your-face-osis etc). Is there some other health detriment besides looking bad? A zit seems like a neutrally-inclined mass of dead bacteria and leukocytes and pus. Of course a lump of dead bacteria on your face sounds gross but why are people so obsessed with good complexion? Is this solely vanity, or is there actual medical wrongness with poor facial hygiene?

Ziggy Sawdust 16:31, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

In answer to your first part, I think we do it to relieve discomfort (either pain, or itchiness). I think itching does have to do with removing parasites - itch will probably tell you more. Pain is generally to stop you doing something harmful - I don't expect zits hurt for any specific reason, they just happen to stimulate the nerve endings in the same way other harmful things do. As for your second part, I think that probably counts as medical advice, so all I can say is: Contact a doctor. --Tango (talk) 16:41, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
First question I think can be answered better by a psychological standpoint. You see a zit and you worry about what other people think about you, so you feel the need to pop it. I don't think it's any 'built in mechanism' really. Second question — not really, but it does often cause scarring of the skin, especially if you pop the zit and it bleeds. Regards, CycloneNimrod talk?contribs? 17:44, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Thoughts on a built-in mechanism: if you put a chimpanzee in front of a mirror with a dot of red paint on its forehead, it will scratch around and remove it. Researchers have used this experiment to determine that chimps can tell that a mirror is a reflection of them (dogs and cats just ignore the reflection in the mirror, at best, or think it is another animal, at worst), and thus have some sort of abstract concept of selfhood. So maybe there is something to that urge to remove the blemish, to restore the self, whatever, that goes beyond simple rationality—if a chimp cares about having a little mark on its face, maybe it's no surprise that we do too. Just a speculation. --140.247.11.15 (talk) 18:44, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
That test is just meant to show they have an understanding of self, rather than any desire to restore the self. Removing a dot of paint and removing a zit are different matters - cleanliness is common to a lot of animals (for a variety of reasons, I expect), so removing a foreign substance from your face is quite normal. A zit isn't foreign, though, it's part of you. --Tango (talk) 20:09, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
It's part of you, but not part of your preferred image so becomes a focus of annoyance even if releasing the infection is a valid response to pressure in the skin. Julia Rossi (talk) 02:15, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Popping a zit is fun! —Tamfang (talk) 21:08, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Drixoral

This question has been removed. Per the reference desk guidelines, the reference desk is not an appropriate place to request medical, legal or other professional advice, including any kind of medical diagnosis, prognosis, or treatment recommendations. For such advice, please see a qualified professional.
This question has been removed. Per the reference desk guidelines, the reference desk is not an appropriate place to request medical, legal or other professional advice, including any kind of medical diagnosis or prognosis, or treatment recommendations. For such advice, please see a qualified professional. --~~~~

Fribbler (talk) 19:10, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] US upcoming analog to digital TV change over

I've read and understood what I could find on the upcoming changeover from analog to digital formats for TV in the US. I'd like to know if the major cable companies will still be offering analog cable after the changeover date. ike9898 (talk) 19:57, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

As the commercials have (much to the annoyance of many) said, if you have cable you are unaffected by the change over. Analog cable with still be offered. See the US government's website on the matter for more information. To be perfectly explicit ONLY if you get TV over an antenna do you need to anticipate any changes, and even then only if your TV was purchased before March 1, 2007. See their FAQ for more information. EagleFalconn (talk) 20:12, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Yes, they see it as a sales advantage. If they are selling you analog conversion, you will stick with them rather than buy a new set. --BenBurch (talk) 20:16, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
That said, I fully expect to see the cable companies start moving to digital-only within a couple years of the broadcast change. Digital (standard-def) channels require less bandwidth than their analog counterparts and confer greater content control to the cable provider, both incentives for cable to switch. — Lomn 21:26, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
My digital cable box here feeds my analog TV just fine. That is ALSO a conversion service even though it happens in the set top box. --BenBurch (talk) 21:32, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Yes, but that's not the point. The digital box in and of itself solves neither of the problems with analog cable mentioned above. Cable has a strong incentive to drop analog altogether, and it's only a matter of time. — Lomn 22:11, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
well, that brings up the question: comcast (for instance) currently still offers an "analog package" as well as digital packages; to the end user, this makes no difference, they're just different packages you pay different amounts for and still hook up to your analog TV. Different converter boxes, I guess. in fact, the bottom digital package offers more than the analog package, for cheaper; so I assume they're only still offering the analog package because they've got enough analog converter boxes around to make it worthwhile, and they're not starved enough for bandwidth. oh i just realized; lots of people have the cable just feeding a "cable ready" analog tv with no cable box, so they need the analog cable. i betcha that's going to go away, and you will need the converter, no direct feeding. Gzuckier (talk) 15:39, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Some of this is covered in this section of the DTV FAQ. Note particularly "the FCC requires cable companies to continue to provide local stations in analog as long as they provide any analog service, even after February 17, 2009" and "Your cable company may decide to move certain cable channels off of its analog service tier and onto a digital service tier, or it may decide to switch to all-digital service at once, so that there is no analog service tier for any subscribers." In that latter case, this would force a customer to rent a set top box from the cable company. I know that Verizon's FIOS service in many (all?) areas has eliminated all analog service, and Comcast has been moving more and more stations to their digital tier. --LarryMac | Talk 13:38, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Where I live, Comcast offers analog standard cable and digital standard cable with exactly the same channels (minus some music only stations and a very limited on-demand service for digital standard). However the analog standard is still cheaper so there is no real incentive to switch. I wouldn't mind switching if there was an advantage to doing so, but so far that has yet to materialize (in my market). Dragons flight (talk) 15:52, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Note that (as far as I understand it) the digital/analog thing only really applies to the RF connectors (coaxial cable). If you have a cable converter box and the connection between the cable box and the TV is something other than coax (composite video, component video, DVI, HDMI, etc.) than the digital/analog issue is already determined by the connection type, and any relevant conversions are handled by the cable box. The only reason you would have to worry about NTSC vs. ATSC is if you don't have a cable box, and plug directly into the coax coming out of the wall. If that is true, when the cable company decides to switch their signals, they'll probably be able to provide you with a set-top box box at that time. -- 128.104.112.147 (talk) 17:15, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Color variation in the mallard duck

I've seen some male mallard ducks whose heads were a purple-indigo color instead of the usual dark green. This is apparently not unheard of, as Google turns up some photos of similar ducks[31]. And I don't think it was a trick of the light, since the heads of the ducks I saw looked purple from all angles. Are these a recognized sub-species or mutation of mallards, or a different species? 69.111.189.55 (talk) 21:10, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

There is no "recognized sub-species" of mallard with a purple head (as far as I know), and I can't say that I've seen one myself (I've been a birder for many years). And it is certainly true that the "green" of the male mallard head can look black or purple in certain light or at certain angles. However, if you are sure that the head was purple from all angles, it is possible that it was genetic due to hybridizing. Mallards are notorious for hybridizing with related species of ducks and with various types of domestic ducks. Many of the "mallards" that you see are not actually "wild" at all, but mixtures of feral hybrids. So that is a possibility.--Eriastrum (talk) 23:06, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
lots of these in my local pond (north east England) they have purple heads no green in sight. I don't know if they are mallards but they seem to resemble a mallard duck but with a purple head rather than a green one. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.240.140.140 (talk) 23:29, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Red-winged blackbirds are seen quite frequently on mile marker posts, and along rural highways...why?

I read the segment in wikipedia about these birds but it didn't really explain this phenomenon. If you are driving through the country in the midwest US for example, you will see these birds along the road, sometimes on the ground, often on mile markers or guardrails, much more frequently than any other bird. I'm wondering it there is something about the roads that attracts them (besides spilled grain or corn). --Dbacksfanbrian (talk) 21:22, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

They're perching birds. You find them on mile markers for the same reason you find them on cattails: it's a vertical object they can perch on. --Carnildo (talk) 22:13, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Where I live on the central coast of California I have a daily commute of 80 miles in a largely rural area. Red-wing Blackbirds are seen along most stretches of the highway (a poky, two-lane affair), because they are nesting in the tall weeds and cattails that are found along the edge of the road. There is no grazing directly along the road and the runoff from the road makes for fairly dense weed growth. In addition, there is often a ditch or minor streambed along the road that increases the amount of tall, reedy vegetation that the blackbirds find appropriate for breeding. This may be the same situation that you have observed in the midwest.--Eriastrum (talk) 22:57, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Are the markers and rails taller than the surrounding vegetation? Perching birds generally like to find a good vantage point, which often equates to the highest available perch. --Kurt Shaped Box (talk) 23:03, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
(edit conflict) Here's some totally anecdotal stuff. I've been watching those birds my whole life, and that's just what they do in the springtime. They display. The males stake out a little territory in the reeds and perch high up on a reed and call to claim it. The ones who can't get the good spots in the swamp end up doing their thing where they can. Their whole purpose is to be seen and heard around this time of year, and that's why we see them perching all over the place and why our heads ring with konk-la-reeee. (I was listening to a mockingbird the other day, and he did a redwing, but he did a faraway one. He made it sound like it would have if it had been one a few hundred yards away where they hang out around here. It's hard not to attribute such virtuosity to something like intelligence, isn't it?) --Milkbreath (talk) 23:11, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
(In answer to Kurt's question) Yes, these are areas of rangeland where a fence parallels the road and behind it the land is densely grazed and of no interest to the blackbirds at all. Also note, these birds are breeding there, not just perching there. Early in the year the males show up and stake out their territories as soon as possible to get the upper hand (wing?). They all clear out by early to mid summer after breeding.--Eriastrum (talk) 23:13, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Yes, it would certainly make sense that the males wish to make themselves as conspicuous as possible to the females at that time of the year. Higher up = better all-round view of their displays to hens looking for a mate in the surrounding area. --Kurt Shaped Box (talk) 23:35, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

I have no idea how to indent anymore, so feel free to correct my indentation. Rural highways are often edged by ditches which collect water. They are also edged by mile-marker posts. Redwinged blackbirds like to nest by water, in which cattails grow, for instance. (And cattails often do grow in the ditches along rural highways.) So there's a coincidence in space between mile-markers and redwinged blackbirds. --arkuat (talk) 06:56, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Find out who cited an article?

How can I find out which scientific journal articles have cited another article (e.g. A genome-wide analysis of CpG dinucleotides in the human genome distinguishes two distinct classes of promoters) in which I'm interested? ----Seans Potato Business 21:48, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

With Google Scholar, of course. Search for the title of the paper, and then click the "cited by" link underneath the article. See here. Someguy1221 (talk) 22:02, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
ISI Web of Knowledge has a pretty rigorous citation indexing system (the Science Citation Index). I wouldn't rely on Google Scholar; it's still pretty patchy in its coverage. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 01:42, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Biomes by latitude

If a planet's axial inclination is 19.37°, as Billy Meier claims Erra's is, then what biomes would you expect to find at:

90° north

80°

70°

60°

50°

40°

30°

20°

10°

The equator? Subliminable (talk) 22:37, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Depends. How fast does the planet turn? How hot and far away is the sun? How much water is available? What's the spread of native life? What's the atmosphere? Etc, etc. Biomes are determined by much more than lattitude.--Fangz (talk) 22:50, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

That's very similar to Earth's, so all else being equal, you would expect pretty similar biomes to Earth. Of course, all else may not be equal, I have no idea what else has been claimed about this planet. --Tango (talk) 23:43, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Latitude is just one of a number of factors that play into where a given biome occurs. The relationship of continents to oceans and the pattern of prevailing winds plays a major role. Also important is the location of mountains ranges. This is why, for example, the Pacific Northwest has a mild, temperate, maritime climate with cold rainforests along the coast (between the mountains the ocean) and an arid semi-desert climate east of the mountains. At the same latitude, approximately 50 degrees north, you can find a wide range of biomes, from tiaga to deciduous forest to desert to rainforest. In short, you need more than latitude to determine biomes. Pfly (talk) 03:20, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
19 degrees inclination is less inclined than Earth, so the climate would vary less than Earth's does as you move from the equator. Day and night lengths would not vary as much as they do on Earth at 45 degrees latitude, for instance. The difference between winter and summer temperatures would be slightly less.
Uranus has no biomes as far as we know, but it's an excellent example of an unusually high inclination of equator to ecliptic. (See Uranus#Axial tilt.) Such planets with extreme inclinations, if they have atmospheres, have some pretty dramatic storms and wind movements.
--arkuat (talk) 06:50, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Reduced inclination will reduce seasonal effects, rather than latitude effects, surely? At a fixed point during the year, it shouldn't make any difference how the planet is tilted. --Tango (talk) 12:16, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Photodissociation

In Photosystem II (during the light reaction of photosynthesis), sunlight is absorbed and used to charge up a single electron in the middle of the photosystem. This electron is taken to an electron transport chain, where it uses its energy to make ATP. To replace this electron, a water molecule is split into oxygen gas and protons (H+ ions) and electrons. The oxygen gas made here is the waste product of photosynthesis.

But water is a much more stable molecule than oxygen gas, so it takes a lot of energy to split it. In the photodissociation article it says that an empty photosystem is the strongest known biological oxidizing agent, so it has the power to split that water... but if it is such a strong oxidizing agent, then it should require a lot of energy to pull the electron off of it in the first place. It seems to me that two things happen in Photosystem II that require energy: ATP is made (on the electron transport chain) and water is split (in the oxygen evolving complex. I assume that both are powered by sunlight energy, but I'm not sure how it all works. Where does the energy to pull the electron off the photosystem come from? Does sunlight power the photosystem and the oxygen evolving complex separately, or does it power the photosystem first and the photosystem powers the oxygen complex? Thanks for the help :)

Jonathan talk 23:01, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

This is a great question that I don't how to answer. The first thing I'd look at is photon counts. Each of these events is powered by a molecule that has been charged up (just like a battery) by absorbing a photon. I'd parse your last question this way: do the photosystem and the oxygen evolving complex absorb charging-up photons independently of one another, or does a single photon absorption event power both the photosystem and the oxygen complex? It may be (I don't know) that the splitting of water uses up some but not all of the ATP that is produced by the electron transport chain. HTH. --arkuat (talk) 06:36, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
See oxygen evolution (very close to an article you already linked); it seems that Photosystem II prepares the OEC with some captured photons, while using other captured photons to drive the electron transport chain. --Tardis (talk) 13:27, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Conversely, in cellular respiration, you use a high-energy electron from glucose to make ATP, but you also change oxygen gas back into water, which should produce a lot of energy... so it looks like you're getting energy from two different places there. Jonathan talk 13:54, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

In chemistry, it's almost always an energy difference that matters: glucose electrons have high energy relative to what? To the oxygen, of course, and adding the electrons and some handy protons to it, O2 − + 2H + , gives you the water. In other words, it's only one process to say "use high-energy electron and change oxygen gas into water". Better to say "benefit from letting oxygen gas take an electron from you and become water". --Tardis (talk) 14:32, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Alien life and falsifying our current theories of evolution

Lets say we find life on another planet. And this alien has a backbone, eyes, blood, and a genome that is very similar to life on our planet. Would this falsify our current theories of evolution since it would be impossible for this alien to have common ancestors with any life on our planet? ScienceApe (talk) 23:04, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

No, because some traits can develope similarly in different environments. Besides that having a similar genome doesn't mean anything. Some scientist believe that our genome is from outer space. GoingOnTracks (talk) 23:15, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Parallel evolution --76.111.32.200 (talk) 23:24, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Convergent evolution is when two dissimilar organisms develop the same trait. Parallel evolution is when two similar organisms develop the same trait.(Parallel evolution#Parallel vs. convergent evolution). Ζρς ι'β' ¡hábleme! 23:30, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
See Panspermia for more information about the possibility that life originated in outer space. --Tango (talk) 23:51, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
That would be kind of like convergent evolution (when two different species develop the same characteristic independently).--Ζρς ι'β' ¡hábleme! 23:26, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

But even with parallel and convergent evolution.... Wouldn't it be far fetched? ScienceApe (talk) 01:59, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Would it? We don't really know the full steps of evolution as they occured. In the chemical sense, it may well be that life built on amino acids, fatty acids, and sugars with nucleic acid as a hereditary material is simply the chemically easiest way to go about things. So certainly, finding a cell bound by twin-tailed amphipathic lipids (like our phospholipids), using DNA or RNA as a hereditary material and using proteins for structure and metabolic function may actually be expected. And as far as killing evolution goes, looking at physical traits wouldn't even be that interesting; our traits evolved as the most viable random responses to the state of our world, and maybe the same conditions exist elsewhere. If we found life from another planet that use the exact same 20 amino acids for building proteins, have nearly identical ribosomes, or some other extreme and specific biochemical similarity...that might shake science. Someguy1221 (talk) 02:19, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
It would seem odd in itself for it to live in conditions where it could be the same, IMHO. Remember that key features of the Earth (especially the oxygen atmosphere) arose essentially out of chance. Also, whilst some convergence might be expected, in some issues, it's a bit implausible to argue that. For example, mammalian dominance arose very much due to a string of fortuitous extinctions. It would indicate at least that something interesting is going on. So in the end, it's a matter of how similar similar is, and whether justifications can be found for those similarities.--Fangz (talk) 05:37, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
I thought the oxygen atmosphere arose because of life, so life evolving elsewhere could make it quite likely that it would end up being in an oxygen atmosphere. --Tango (talk) 12:13, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
It really depends on the conditions of the alien planet in question. If it is similar to Earth, then it can well be argued that just as useful parts like the eye has evolved numerous times independently, hereditary structures such as DNA and RNA are the best in duplicating genes and thus should evolve in other similar planets as well. As someone has pointed out in another internet forum, life on Earth does not imply the existence of God. Life on an inhospitable planet might be. Imagine Reason (talk) 14:55, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
If these similarities between the alien and terrestrial species were coded in the same way (same DNA code, same genes, etc.), then they could not have evolved separately--they would have to have had a common ancestor. However, this would not falsify the theory of biological evolution by natural selection; it would simply provide very strong evidence for the theory of panspermia--the dissemination of life throughout the galaxy.--Eriastrum (talk) 16:59, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
"then they could not have evolved separately" -- The words "could not" are a bit too absolute IMO. "Then it would be extremely improbable for them to have evolved separately" might be better, but that is still, of course, making some assumptions about how environmental forces affect things. WDavis1911 (talk) 02:36, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Of course, there's a distinction between "falsifying the theory of evolution" (ie: Proving that evolution can not ever happen.) and "falsifying the theory of evolution as an theory of human origins." (ie: Proving that evolution is not how we specifically came about.) The first one would be pretty hard to prove without millions of years of laboratory time. But I would think that the second one would be thrown into some doubt if we suddenly discovered humans living on faraway planets with different conditions. APL (talk) 13:36, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Jack Cohen has talked for many years about 'parochials' vs 'universals' (See for example Evolving the Alien). Universals are phenomena that have evolved more than once independently, such as eyes, wings, and intelligence. Parochials are structures or behaviours which as far as we know have only ever evolved once, such as haemoglobin, backbones and knees - and DNA. He argues that if we encountered alien life, we should expect to encounter universals, but be very surprised if we encounter parochials. --ColinFine (talk) 20:26, 7 June 2008 (UTC)


[edit] June 4

[edit] Electromotive Force and Potential Difference?

I am slightly confused what is the difference between electromotive force and potential difference. From what I currently understand it seems like emf is a theoretical value assuming no internal resistance within a battery while potential difference is the actual, pratical value. Is this correct? 24.125.56.9 (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 00:44, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

You've already looked at Electromotive force#Electromotive force and voltage difference, right? Also note that at potential difference, it has been suggested that this article be merged with voltage. Are you asking about the difference between emf and voltage? The main thing I'm getting out of these articles is that the word "force" in emf is a misnomer. --arkuat (talk) 06:23, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
There is no real difference other than semantic convention. The emf phrase is usually applied to the voltage of a generator and the pd phrase is usually applied to the voltage across a load. However, this can be relative, the load can be a supply to something else so whether a particular item is a load or a source can be a matter of point of view. Arkuat is correct that emf is a misnomer and is therefore discouraged. Voltage is neither force nor pressure (another common analogy). It is potential energy (per unit charge). SpinningSpark 13:12, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] mental health

explain the practicle knowledge of the principles, concepts, and methodology in the field of mental health in order. Think of yourself being a mental health couselor. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.114.167.213 (talk) 01:11, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Do your own homework. Think of yourself being a student learning the material instead of a freeloader cheating on-line. DMacks (talk) 01:16, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
That seems like practicle practical advice ;-) --hydnjo talk 01:54, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Sound cousel counsel too. Clarityfiend (talk) 02:06, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Mental health - Mental health professional - Social worker - Psychology - Psychiatry. Damn, I really thought it was a question about the meeting of particle physics and psychology. So disappointed. 200.127.59.151 (talk) 15:15, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] ears

Do your ears get bigger as you age? It seems like elderly people have abnormally large ears. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.169.24.1 (talk) 02:07, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

This study suggests yes, though it is not an ironclad correlation between ear size and age. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 03:26, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Yahoo answers[32] is inconclusive but madsci[33] discusses it with a yes in there as well. Sometimes it's only apparent (the flesh-and-hair loss effect) and sometimes it's measurable. Hair apparently falls off the head only to reappear in the nose and ears. Julia Rossi (talk) 03:31, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
See also Do Your Ears Hang Low? Edison (talk) 06:04, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Can you plug a 115 volt appliance into a 110 volt outlet?

I'm trying to determine if I can plug a 115 volt appliance into a 110 volt outlet. You know, whether or not that would actually work without anything blowing up. I found an answer to a similar question on Wikianswers, but it didn't really help at all. Digger3000 (talk) 02:41, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

In North America, household outlet voltages of 110/115/120V are used interchangeably (see this FAQ). According to that link, appliances are generally designed to operate at 115 +/- 10%, so you should be just fine. Cheers, St3vo (talk) 02:54, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
That's right. They just call them those different numbers and there's no telling what the actual voltage is going to be on any given day. It'll be higher closer to the power plant, too. The power companies don't regulate that very strictly, but they do keep the 60 cycles pretty tight. Our article Mains_electricity#Voltage_levels says "In the United States and Canada, national standards specify that the nominal voltage at the source should be 120 V and allow a range of 114 to 126 V (-5% to +5%)." Also see Mains_electricity#Voltage_regulation. --Milkbreath (talk) 04:04, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Thomas Edison started out with 100 volts in New York City supplied from the Pearl Street Plant in 1882. He decided to stress the insulation slightly more to achieve the transfer of greater power and the voltage level was raised to 110 volts. A couple of decades later, the nominal supply voltage became 120 volts, again to aupply more power via the same conductors. 120 volts AC is a nominal voltage in North America for many utilities at the transformer terminals. By the time the voltage has dropped through the service conductors and the wiring in the customer's premesis, it may be down to 110 volts at the actual motor terminals, representing the same real life situation. Utility commissions in many U.S. states allow the utility voltage to drop from the nominal 120 volts to 114 volts (a 5 % decrease) for 1 minute. A 115 volt (nominal) motor supplied with 120 volts would generally operate satisfactorily while drawing lower current. As with all Wikipedia Reerence Desk answers, this is provided for information only and may not be relied on as a substitute for professional advice from a licensed professional. No liability whatsoever is assumed. Edison (talk) 06:02, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Animal behaviour

I want to know some facts about social hierarchy among animals.

  • Which animals other than Homo sapiens have social hierarchy?
  • I have read the article on Gorilla. The Gorilla#Behavior section of that article does not have much information about their group life. The only information given in the article is:

Silverbacks are the strong, dominant troop leaders. Each typically leads a troop (group size ranges from 5 to 30) and is in the center of the troop's attention, making all the decisions, mediating conflicts, determining the movements of the group, leading the others to feeding sites and taking responsibility for the safety and well-being of the troop.

      • How the leader of a gorilla group is chosen?
      • If the existing leader of a group of Gorilla dies, then who will be the next leader and what is the selection procedure?
      • If any member of a gorilla group denies the order of the troop leader, then what will be the result?
  • Regarding Chimpanzee, is there social hierarchy among chimps? What is the role of violence among chimpanzees? Are they attack one another or conflicts between one group and another, if there is violence then what is the reason behind the violence and what is the usual result of such violence? Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 06:39, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Start from Ethology and then follow the links at the bottom. Dominance hierarchy(pecking order) and Alpha (biology) would probably also be of interest to you. Mountain Gorilla has a bit more on social structure. For Chimpanzee the answer depends on what species Common Chimpanzee is different from Bonobo.76.111.32.200 (talk) 07:00, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Lots of questions. I'll have a go at the first. Almost all social animals have hierarchies, and that means a lot of mammals including chimps and gorillas. Perhaps the most rigid social hierarchies in mammals are among the Naked mole rats and Damaraland Mole Rats - the only two mammals that are know to display eusociality. Rockpocket 07:05, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
I carefully read the article Mountain Gorilla. The Mountain_Gorilla#Social_structure section answers to one of my question that if the existing group leader dies, then "the family group may be severely disrupted. Unless he leaves behind a male descendant capable of taking over his position, the group will either split up or be taken over in its entirety by an unrelated male. When a new silverback takes control of a family group, he may kill all of the infants of the dead silverback". This section also clearly states A typical group contains: one silverback, who is the group's undisputed leader. Here the fact I still do not understand that what will be fate of a group member if he/she denies any order of the troop leader? Will he/she be expelled from group or anything other? Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 07:20, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Animals don't tend to order one another around. The dominant animal will typically do what he wants do do (which is generally eat, be groomed, and mate). If the other males stay out of his way and do not interfere with him then they will be fine. If they do, then they will likely be attacked until they submit. If they don't submit one of three things will happen: they may be chased away from the social group, they may be killed or the may usurp the dominant animal (who will either submit, be chased away or be killed). Rockpocket 07:29, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] I cut the skin on my knee

Yesterday night, I fell from my bicycle and cut the skin on my knee, for about an inch long, on the tar road. I washed it in Dettol and put on a Band-Aid. I removed the Band-Aid just now.

How come the skin got cut but my pants has no damage?

Why does it look white under the skin on the knee? It looks reddish under the skin on other parts of the body, right?

What is this translucent gel that has formed a thin film on the wound?

--Masatran (talk) 08:33, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

The fabric on your pants is stronger than the skin on your knee? I suspect the 'whiteness' is because your knee doesn't have much by way of muscle between it and the knee-cap, whereas on other parts of the body you do. I think the gel is white-blood cells. Sorry not much use i'm sure someone in the know will correct/answer more accurately in time. 194.221.133.226 (talk) 08:49, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Sounds more like a scrape than a cut. The fact that your jeans held up is probably due to the fact that there are lots of tiny sharp edged pebbles in the road surface. They work like sandpaper. The sharp edges poked through tiny holes in your jeans and then cut lots of tiny little holes in your skin. The translucent film are white blood cells and a couple of other things your body uses to heal the wound. The white skin can have 2 reasons: Under the bandaid the skin can not "breathe" and is kept moist. The effects are the same as staying in the pool or tub too long. The second is that the blood supply is disrupted, compared to healthy skin, the body is also supplying more white blood cells in proportion to red to the site of the injury. --76.111.32.200 (talk) 09:26, 4 June 2008 (UTC)


(It's amazing how much questions and answers can resemble medical advice without people harrumphing about the Ref Desk rules.)Edison (talk) 21:48, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Metadiscussion is best confined to the talk page. --Milkbreath (talk) 23:01, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
There is a difference between answering a question about human biology and medical advice - it's a little difficult to tell the difference sometimes, so we err on the side of caution, but I think this case is well within the realms of human biology, not medical advice, since all that's been offered is an explanation for an observation that took place after treatment was complete, no suggests about future treatment have been offered. --Tango (talk) 14:53, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Huh? If you have an itch and scratch it too much, the skin will be covered with white marks. This is probably due to the surface of the skin being cut, without yet bleeding, swelling, and reddning, and the white cut mark on your knee is likely similar. Hope this helps. Thanks. ~AH1(TCU) 23:56, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Parachute for rock climbing

Would it help if rock climbers kept a parachute? Perhaps it would slow them down if they had a fall? --Masatran (talk) 09:03, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

I think that it is not feasible. First the parachute will not have enough room to deploy should the climber. Second, it will be torn by the jagged rocks of the cliff.--Lenticel (talk) 09:18, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
See BASE jumping. You would need a significant amount of expertise to pull it off, I imagine, but it could work. --Tango (talk) 12:07, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Most of the time they use ropes and such tools instead to secure themselves. More reliable than a parachute and works at any height. Regards, CycloneNimrod talk?contribs? 12:49, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Rock climbing is rarely done on overhanging cliffs. More often, it's done on vertical or near-vertical cliffs, and if you fall on one of those, your parachute won't have room to open -- it'll get tangled and torn by scraping against the cliff. --Carnildo (talk) 21:24, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Quantum mechanics and wave functions

QM states that prior to observation, nothing can be said about a physical system other than a probability function which seems to be definable to a degree by assumptions about the system's elements. With observation a system's probability wave function will collapse into a precise quantity which is observable by the means of measuring the device applied. – taken from Reality#Quantum physical views of reality.

Does this imply that, prior to the appearance of living beings capable of observing, the entire universe was in a state of quantum superposition? Does this mean that the far side of Pluto, which is not being observed, is in a combination of all the possible states? And finally, if I enclosed myself in a dark steel box, more or less like Schrödinger's cat, would I instantly experiment superposition too? -- Leptictidium (mt) 10:20, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't think there is any real agreement on what "observe" means in that context. Collapsing wave functions doesn't really appear in the theory, it's just tacked on after the fact to explain why we do actually observe fixed outcomes to experiments. Different people have different ideas about how it actually works. Someone else can probably explain what the major interpretations are better than I can. --Tango (talk) 12:10, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

I think the whole universe is in a state of superposition whether it is observed or not! Proper Interval Locality —Preceding unsigned comment added by WROBO (talk • contribs) 12:48, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Can other animals or even plants not observe? Imagine Reason (talk) 14:49, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
In quantum mechanics, the word "observe" doesn't mean what you think it does. Anything that interacts with a system can observe it: a human, a bacterium, an atom, a photon, anything. --Carnildo (talk) 21:31, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
So why is the superposition of the cat preserved if the bateria in the box, the atoms, and the cat can all observe and collapse the wavefunction? (I have the sneaking suspicion that I may be missing something). Ζρς ι'β' ¡hábleme! 12:49, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Hello everyone!
Considering my profile, I might be one of the least qualified persons to comment upon this. But, reading the italicized quoted paragraph gives me an impression that it is to be taken in perspective of Heisenberg's uncertainty principle, which implies that there are certain coupled physical quantities, say position and momentum of a particle that cannot both be determined with absolute certainty (this I'm saying with the risk of talking to real experts). To determine the position (the meaning of observation in the said paragraph) of any particle one will have to "bombard" it with at least one photon. And, the time it takes to return would tell you the position, but the catch is in the process, the photon would have altered the original momentum by an uncertain quantity, so again we become ignorant of the "exact" momentum possessed.
One might think that if a particle is absolutely stationary, then, and if we determine it's position, then we'd be able to determine both (momentum and position accurately), again the above argument would apply, and most importantly, quantum mechanics does not allow for a particle to have zero energy. It has to have at least 1/2h.v2 amount of energy (where "h" is the Planck's constant, "v" is actually mu, and stands for certain frequency [loosely put, the frequency at which the particle "oscillates" and does not loose energy in the process]). This energy is known as the "zero point energy". The explanation I gave of the uncertainty principle is kind of crude (qualitative). There are other more complex explanations (like the "particle-in-the-box" example) that also account for certain phenomena like the tunneling effect used in electron microscopes (loosely put, the probability for an electron to exist outside as well as within the walls of a tunnel are both greater than zero!).
One more thing that I'd like to point out is that as quantum mechanics stands today, it is only to account for phenomena occurring at the subatomic scale, not at scales as large as a planet. Even a "small" particle like the a bacterium would be too complex and large to explain. That's why scientists are trying hard to find a unified field theory for a physics that could explain phenomena at subatomic scale as well as really huge bodies like the galaxies in the Universe. It is may be in this context that the Strings theory might come in handy.
Because, of the above mentioned uncertainty, we talk of wave function, which some what corresponds to the concept of trajectory in classical mechanics, which is a cumulative description of a particle's momentum (mass, direction, speed), and of course position at all points in time. Wave function if properly solved can yield the energy possessed by a body (kinetic+potential energy, of which the actual potential energy is again indeterminate), and the probability of a particle existing at a particular position in the coordinate system. So much for the uncertainty principle!
My ideas are greatly based on a book by Peter W. Atkins called "Physical chemistry" that I'd read more than 6 years back, and a program presented on the "Discovery channel" based on a book by Brian Greene called "The elegant Universe" with the same name.
If (the probability of which is very high) my ideas are misdirected, please do let me know. I find these topics very interesting.
Hope my comments would be of some help. Regards.
—KetanPanchaltaLK
Nu (ν) not mu (μ) is frequency. Mu is the notation for micro. I (am not sure but) think a wavefunction is a combination of all possible quantum states of a system. Thus, a wavefunction describes the superposition of all quantum states of a particle. When the particle is observed, the wavefunction "collapses" and becomes a definite state. The probability of collapsing into any of the possible states is described by the wavefunction.Caution: These ideas may, too, be misdirected. This is content from a few months ago obtained from Wikipedia via memory. If any of my statements are misguided, please kindly point them out. Ζρς ι'β' ¡hábleme! 02:37, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Perhaps as a physicist in training I can add a little something. Short answer: Your question shows a common flaw in how people receive quantum mechanics. Its all about scale.
The wavefunction is said to contain all the information there is about a quantum particle. The square of the wavefunction is the probability density that tells you the probability that a particle is in any given place. The wave function is determined by the boundary conditions which are defined by its surroundings (see the particle in a box for the easiest to understand example).
When something is 'observed' its wavefunction collapses to a Dirac delta function and it takes on a definite value for that period of time until it begins to time evolve again. The important thing to understand about probability density is that it applies for an ensemble of particles, not one particle by itself. If you have a wavefunction that allows for states 1 and 0, and you measure a particle to be in state 1. It is in state 1 for you to be able to measure that it is in state 1 (its an obvious thing that needs to be said). Its state is known (this is not meant to imply that its momentum/position are simultaneously known, commutator relationships still apply). If you were to take an identical particle and put it in the situation again, you might get 1, you might get 0. The relative probability of getting either of those is based on the probability density of the particle.
All that said, this applies ONLY for quantum particles. It does not apply for cats or as stated above, even bacteria. Or (often) even atoms. These objects are just too large for quantum effects to be observable. Atoms are kind of a gray area in that we CAN make predictions using quantum mechanics, but only if we break the atom down into its components, the electron cloud and the nucleus. But the atom considered as a unit will not typically follow the rules of quantum mechanics.
So yes, one could theoretically say that the far side of Pluto is in a state of quantum uncertainty. But above a certain scale, quantum effects are very difficult to observe and you'll more often find statistical mechanics or thermodynamics or Newton calling the shots. This inability to scale quantum up to an arbitrary scale is, as said above, the goal of a Grand Unified Theory, but we're not there yet. EagleFalconn (talk) 13:52, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Hi! Thanks, EagleFalconn. I could follow your reply, but only partially so (no doubt, it "Q-U-A-N-T-U-M" physics!). Well, what I particularly didn't understand was the meaning of the term "quantum states". What are the parameters (like wave function, position, energy, spin, momentum or oscillatory frequency are included)? As I had said, I'm very unrelated to the field, but after I'd completed replying, I realized the concept that was being discussed had somehow never come to my attention during (whatever little) exposure I've had of quantum physics, that's why I probably tried to mould the situation in terms of uncertainty. Thanks in advance. Regards. —KetanPanchaltaLK 05:41, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Vehicle Fuel Economy declines by 10% for every mile per hour over 60 mph. Is this true?

Common knowledge or media has told me that for every increase in speed by 1 MPH, over the speed of 60MPH, fuel economy declines by 10%. This would result in a fuel economy loss of 50%, from say 15 MPG to 7.5 MPG by driving at 65 MPH. (5mph X 10% for each MPH= 50%. This cannot be true. What is the truth? Steve in canada. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.179.218.64 (talk) 13:02, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Here's a question to answer your question. Say something costs $100. A store charges a 50% markup on the price. Later, when the store is going out of business, they have a 50% off sale. How much does it cost now? shoy 13:49, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Obviously the 10% rule of thumb as described above can't be literally true, otherwise your fuel tank would instantly empty itself when you hit 70MPH. (I have myself driven over 70MPH and can report that my fuel consumption did not suddenly divide by zero.)
Check out the graph at page 4-23 of this report for a rough idea of how this goes. Obviously it will be somewhat different depending on the vehicle. APL (talk) 14:01, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Minus 10% and then minus another 10% isn't the same as minusing 20% - pick a starting number and try it. --Tango (talk) 14:24, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
But even taking compounding into account, a 10% drop per 1 mph increase in speed would mean that fuel economy at 70 mph was only 35% of its value at 60 mph - which is clearly not correct. The rate of drop off in fuel economy in the source given by APL above is much smaller than this - only 1% to 2% per mph. Gandalf61 (talk) 14:37, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
It massively depends on the engine and gearbox of the car, too. Different cars are optimised for different speeds, a car with a fairly low-ratio gearbox designed for city driving does lose efficiency quite quickly at high speeds, but a car designed for it generally gets its best mileage at 70-80mph. ~ mazca talk 14:27, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
That number surprises me. I thought cars typically saw their most efficient speeds in more like the 30-50 mph range. Where did you read about cars that are most efficient at 70-80? Air resistance becomes way more significant with higher speeds- there's not really any getting around that. Friday (talk) 15:34, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Yeah. I can see an engine producing peak power in that range, but not peak fuel efficiency for the overall system. — Lomn 18:27, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
The Union of Concerned Scientists guy here says you lose 1% for every mph over 55 (not 10% for every mph over 55) (You have to love the sidebar poll - On a 65mph speed limit road, how slow would you go to save gas? Most common answer - 70!) Rmhermen (talk) 15:46, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
At high speed efficiency is governed mostly by wind resistance, which goes up proportional to the square of the velocity. So, its not linear at al, and depends a lot on the aerodynamic efficiency of the vehicle. Perhaps it is 10% between 60 and 70, but it will be more than that between 70 and 80. We used to (try to) enforce a 55 mph speed limit in the USA just because of the really large fuel savings that would accrue if people stuck to that limit. I really think we need to go back to that, and make speeding tickets a priority revenue source for the states for a few years. --BenBurch (talk) 19:54, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
That was one of the stupidiest laws we ever had. I lived in a hilly area at the time, which results in cars gaining speed going down the hills and losing speed when they went back up. But once they put that absurdly low speed limit in place, we either had to come to a stop at the top of the hills or ride the brakes down the hill to keep it under 55. This wasted fuel, time, and brake pads. Another unintended consequence is that slower cars stay on the roads longer for a given trip, resulting in more cars on the road at any given time, which requires additional lanes to prevent gridlock. StuRat (talk) 04:01, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Obviously they'd never heard of engine braking if they were riding the brakes down hills. Even an automatic gearbox has a low gear selector override for just such an occasion. Exxolon (talk) 21:07, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Why aren't pygmies considered a separate species or sub-species of Homo Sapiens?

For example, the Pygmy Hippopotamus is considered a separate species from the Hippopotamus. The Pygmy Blue Whale is considered a separate sub-species of Blue Whale. And there are many other examples. So why aren't human pygmies considered a different species or sub-species of Homo Sapiens? Is it because of political reasons or because of actual scientific reasons? ScienceApe (talk) 13:25, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

See Race (classification of human beings)#Race as subspecies. --Elliskev 15:07, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Good link. In general the meanings of the terms "race" and "subspecies", while vague, mean something pretty similar. So to answer the original question - yes, you probably could call pygmies a subspecies, just as you could call Caucasians, or Maoris, or Koreans a subspecies. In general, though, I think the term "race" is used because it sounds more neutral. To me "subspecies of human" gives an implication of "subhuman" which is obviously worth avoiding politically. ~ mazca talk 16:58, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
You seem to be hung up on the term "pygmy". It is not a scientific term, neither when applied to hippos, whales, or humans. It is a name that just means "smaller". It does not denote whether anything labeled it is a different species or sub-species. Membership in a species is determined by a number of factors—no human groups have ever been found who were not of the same species. There has been a long discussion over whether it makes sense to consider human races forms of subspecies or variations, but in there the apparently static appearances of the races is quite deceptive, they are just probabilistic clusters of traits that on aggregate seem to be biologically real but have no distinct genetic basis (other than being said probabilistic clusters of traits—people from X area have a higher chance of having certain traits than people from Y area that is distant), and much of what we consider to be the differences are very superficial and are colored by social cues. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 15:30, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Well, 98..., you have just described subspecies quite well (people from X area have a higher chance of having certain traits than people from Y area that is distant) in your attempt to prove the opposite. This is part of the problem of defining subspecies for any organism. Rmhermen (talk) 15:54, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
In my understanding of it, the definition of subspecies is considerably more complicated than that, and it is in those complexities that the whole problem of race as a subspecies falls apart. Human racial traits are clinal, which goes against the categorization of subspecies fairly strongly.--98.217.8.46 (talk) 17:39, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
And how do the African Pygmies not fall into the definition of a subspecies exactly? —Preceding unsigned comment added by ScienceApe (talk • contribs) 18:31, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
As yet another example of why not to get hung up on the name: the African pygmies were only called such as early as the 1860s[34], after the categorization of the Pygmy Hippos (1840s). This loose application of similar names to African peoples is tres' 19th-century, and it's interesting to note that the man who was responsible for giving a full description of the Pygmy Hippos to science was none other than notorious scientific racist Samuel George Morton. While I doubt Morton had anything to do with apply the term "Pygmy" to people, it's worth noting that he did think that human races were distinct species (despite the obvious evidence of ability to interbreed), and used it as a way to justify all sorts of things like Slavery. So just to reiterate: "is it because of political reasons or because of actual scientific reasons?" is not exactly the right question; questions about race and biology have long been both. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 15:40, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
That French word is properly très, in case you're interested; no apostrophe. —Tamfang (talk) 21:04, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Possibly due to a relatively recent Population bottleneck approx 70,000 years ago (the cause is speculated to be the Toba catastrophe theory ), the human species is very similar genetically, more so than other animals with such a large population. This means on genetic grounds it is unlikely that any subsection of the human species will be genetically different enough to be regarded as a subspecies. Due to anthropomorphic bias we tend to regard differences in humans as more noticeable than differences in other animals. I.e. Most people find it far easier to tell the difference between 2 people than 2 snails. GameKeeper (talk) 19:52, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Gigantic dogs and tiny dogs vary by a greater ratio in mass than larger and smaller races of humans, but the dogs are certainly of one species. Size and color do not necessarily imply speciation. Edison (talk) 21:44, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes they are the same species, but they are regarded as different breeds, which means a domesticated subspecies. ScienceApe (talk) 23:40, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Hi. Of course, there are claims that creatures such as Bigfoot and Orang pendek are seperate species of the Homo genus, but this has not yet been proven. Thanks. ~AH1(TCU) 22:34, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Hi everyone! Hope am not adding to the confusion. Yes, of course apart from the fact that the "pygmy" in pygmy hippopotamus and pygmy whale are adjectives given to an originally "DIFFERENT" species, whereas "Pygmy" as applied to the human "race" is more like the original noun, another thing to consider is a relatively practical criterion for considering a group of animals as one species—that being they can successfully and naturally reproduce among themselves. So, this criterion would definitely apply to Pygmies as well as other named races. Regards. —KetanPanchaltaLK 17:11, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
Well, if that is so, the atomic family is a species ;-). Seriously, Pygmies are, of course, compatible with other groups of humans, and hence form a common species with them. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 17:28, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
The pygmy blue whale is not a different species. It is a different sub-species, akin to a race. ScienceApe (talk) 19:01, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Baby seagulls

Can baby seagulls swim soon after hatching, like ducklings can? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.242.27.201 (talk) 14:00, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Ducks generally nest on or very near the water, so it's quite necessary for ducklings to swim very early on. Conversely, seagulls generally nest on cliffs and crags a fair distance from the water and the chicks stay in the nest for longer, so I don't think it's likely that the babies need to swim soon after hatching. My guess would be that they gain swimming capabilities about the time they fledge and fly out of the nest, because they are unlikely to encounter the water much before then. I'm not sure, though. ~ mazca talk 14:40, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
If the nest is near water, gull chicks do sometimes swim (well, it's really more like splashing around and paddling a bit) in the days before they fledge, once most of their feathers have grown through. Newly hatched babies seldom leave the safety of snuggling beneath the mother gull (though if they try to scramble out of the nest, she picks them up and puts them back under anyway), though they can run within hours of hatching if the need arises. --Kurt Shaped Box (talk) 20:38, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Escaping from a falling plane that is going to crash

I was on a plane the other day and I always wondered that if a plane is going to crash, yet I am still high enough in the air to parachute down, would I survive? How would you survive, if it is possible? I know now that there are security restrictions on actually bring a parachute pack with you on the plane nowadays. But, if you could, what would you bring so that you can literally jump out of a jumbo jet and survive? Also what part of the plane would have to jump from to survive? --Vincebosma (talk) 15:10, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Certainly you could do it with a pressure suit and parachute, because Joseph Kittinger did it from over 100,000 feet. But I don't know what altitude you can safely jump from with a parachute but without a pressure suit. Vesna Vulović survived a fall from 33,000 feet with no suit or parachute, but that's rare. This site says you can jump from near 30,000 feet with just a parachute and an oxygen bottle, but I don't know how reliable it is. --Allen (talk) 15:56, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
With an airliner, there's also a very real question of how you're going to safely bail out. D. B. Cooper exited his craft via a tail hatch, but that's an uncommon feature these days, and present-day exits (forward hatches, over-wing windows) aren't designed to let an occupant jump while avoiding wings and engines. — Lomn 16:33, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
  • In fact, the Boeing 727 tail hatch that Cooper used was modified after the hijacking and a number of similar events, to keep the hatch locked in flight so no one could do that again (see Cooper vane). --Anonymous, 20:57 UTC, June 4, 2008.
It is not known for certain whether D.B. Cooper survived or not, but it is believed that he did not. 69.140.152.55 (talk) 22:08, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Furthermore, if you're high enough (like 35,000 feet or so), and you have only the clothing you normally wear on an airliner plus a parachute, you're probably more at risk of freezing to death (or at least suffering severe frostbite, losing limbs, ears, nose, etc.) if you did get out safely. ~Amatulić (talk) 17:24, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Finally, there is the issue of getting out of the plane. Passengers are not allowed to open the hatches - even if the plane is crashing. So, you'll have to fight your way through the flight crew as well as all passengers that think you are trying to blow up the plane somehow by opening a hatch in flight. -- kainaw™ 18:32, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Well, if the plane is already crashing -- that is to say, in a clear dive towards the ground -- I doubt anyone is going to be all that concerned about someone trying to blow up the plane or even paying all that much attention to individual passengers (though it's certainly true that navigating your way to a hatch in the ensuing chaos is likely to be challenging). But the real problem is that you literally cannot open the doors of a modern airliner while in flight, at least not if it's properly intact, because the pressure within the airplane cabin is greater than the air pressure outside. The doors in airliners have to be pulled inwards, towards the cabin, before they can be opened, but because the air inside the cabin is pushing against the door, it can't be done -- it'd take far more strength than any human or even several humans possesses to do it. (According to this Straight Dope article, in order to open an inward-opening hatch on the plane, you'd need to exert the equivalent of a metric ton of pressure on the door to yank it open.) Still, for the sake of argument... if we were to assume that the plane was low enough (but not too low), broke up in flight and you were to get out of through the new hole in the fuselage while wearing a parachute... well, with some luck, sure, you could survive, provided you didn't get hit by a piece of the fuselage or anything and kept your head. Still, I wouldn't like to bet on it. -- Captain Disdain (talk) 20:04, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Hi. Remember however, that if you parachute into a thunderstorm, you are unlikely to survive. The only person ever to survive this was Lt. Col. William Rankin, who apparently does not have an article yet so I'll try and create one later. Hope this helps. Thanks. ~AH1(TCU) 22:27, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
You might like reading this amusing and practical guide. --Sean 22:46, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Electric Motors

Domestic electric fans

  1. How it works with a rotor where no electricity is supplied ?
  2. What is the function of a capacitor attached to the fan?Practically it boosts the efficiency of the motor.
  3. Since a generator is the reverse of a motor, it should be possible to generate current from a domestic AC exhaust fan by keeping it exposed to air flow. In that case the current so generated will be AC or DC? What will be the function of the capacitor of a motor in case the same is used as a generator?
  4. It is mentioned that aluminium winding is more efficient than copper. But I have never seen aluminium winding wires being used by professionals. Rather copper wire is seen used by them, Why? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Santoshkumardessai (talk • contribs) 15:31, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
To get you started, you could read things like electric motor, electric generator and aluminum wiring. Friday (talk) 15:37, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Induction motor will also be appropriate for learning about the type of motor used in most mains-powered fans.
Atlant (talk) 19:37, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
The aluminum wiring article linked to by Friday is concerned with grid and building wiring. Aluminum started to become popular in the 1960s when the then Rhodesia led by Ian Smith was under international sanctions. At the time, Rhodesia was the worlds major source of copper and prices went through the roof, even getting into the same bracket as silver at one time. Not sure if this is the same reason for aluminums use in motor windings though, the OP mentioned improved efficiency. Perhaps there is a weight saving, but it is certainly not a very common thing to do. SpinningSpark 20:12, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
At first blush it would seem like a fan motor should generate electricity when the wind spins it. But from childhood experimenting with one, my impression is that it does not have a functioning field current adequate to produce much output voltage. External excitation might be needed in addition to high speed rotation of the shaft. There is also the fact that when powered it spins far faster than is likely to be achieved when you attempt to make it a generator from normal amounts of air flow. Edison (talk) 21:37, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
We do have an all-too-brief article on Induction generators. And yes, they need an external source of electrical power to begin working, although with the right load impedance they'll keep themselves powered-up after that. Essentially, just as an induction motor converts electrical power to mechanical power as the rotor slips backwards against the rotating field, an induction generator converts mechanical power to electrical power as the rotor slips forwards against the rotating field.
Atlant (talk) 11:24, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
I'm speculating here on motor windings, but since aluminum has much less power density than copper, I'm thinking that the windings would have to be that much bigger, therefore a less-efficient motor would result. The weight saving is only a factor in starting the motor, not in running it, and the cost saving in materials would be offset by the larger motor casing and reduced motor efficiency. Franamax (talk) 22:52, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
This motor manufacturer would appear to agree with you on the efficiency issue. SpinningSpark 01:55, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Ants smell

Here's a thought I have: if we could shrink to the size of an ant, so that the ant was as big as a dog to us, what would it smell like? I know that ants have pheremones, but I'm not sure if these are something a human would smell. Would the ant smell like dirt, since it lives in the dirt? Would it be really stinky? I also heard somewhere that some ants grow fungus. Jonathan talk 17:04, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

I guess a giant ant (OK, a regular ant where we were tiny) would smell like a whole mess of normal ants do to us at our present size. Formic acid seems to pretty much override any other smell. --Milkbreath (talk) 17:18, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
If you retained your human sense of smell, you likely wouldn't ever pick up on the pheromones anyway. ~Amatulić (talk) 17:20, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Surely the ant would still be releasing the same amount of pheromone and your nose would be the same sensitivity it is now I would have thought (assuming your cells are shrunk with you) so i'm pretty sure it'd be no different. Regards, CycloneNimrod talk?contribs? 18:13, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
So humans can't smell pheromones? That's what I was wondering Jonathan talk 16:01, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Humans can smell some animal pheromones. For example, (±)-2-sec-butyl-4,5-dihydrothiazole and 6-hydroxy-6-methyl-3-heptanone are both mouse pheromones. They also have a distinct smell. However, while we humans have the ability to detect the odors of pheromones via our olfactory epithelium, we do not have the ability to detect the active pheromones themselves (because we don't have a vomeronasal organ). Rockpocket 20:18, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
The fungus growing ants are the Leafcutter ants SpinningSpark 19:56, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, I definately agree, they would probably smell about the same that a whole bunch of ants do at normal size :) Do some ants really smell like formic acid? I live with pavement ants and I never notice any formic acid smell. Jonathan talk 16:01, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Make yourself an ant farm. We used to just dig up an anthill, dump it all in an old pickle jar, and wrap it in black construction paper. Let them get situated and take a whiff. --Milkbreath (talk) 16:28, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
According to the formic acid article, "As early as the 15th century, some alchemists and naturalists were aware that ant hills gave off an acidic vapor." D0762 (talk) 16:52, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Not all ants produce formic acid but plenty do, it does have a very distinct whiff that a human can easily smell by sniffing a suitable nest (without miniaturization!) . I have occasionally detected the smell of a nest before actually seeing it. As to whether a human could detect the ant pheromones, that is a tough one. I am sure certain ones would be detectable but millions of years as a eusocial animal which communicates with pheromones means that ant's pheromones are likely extremely subtle . I would expect these subtleties to avoid even a shrunk person GameKeeper (talk) 22:44, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
I don't see what difference size would make at all. Smell is based on two things: the composition of the air and the receptors an organism has. If you shrink, you aren't changing either of these factors: your nose is the same albeit smaller, and the composition of the air would stay the same. Maybe the difference would be that you were closer to the ground, where ants lay pheromone trails? But I mean, you could just as easily get on your hands and knees and sniff. --Shaggorama (talk) 15:24, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Lidocaine and a couple of other questions

I work in a hospital and onje day I was in the prep room next to the building exit and there was a 100mg in 5ml vial of lidocaine sitting. How dangerous would that have been had it been taken, what could it to if injected intravenously, rubbed topically etc? There was also a 200mg in 10ml of acetylcysteine. Same question applies.

Also, there is much saline and sterile water lying around which might be confused for drugs in an admissions ward. Before I say anything to ward staff I would like to know the dangers of all these things. 92.0.228.141 (talk) 19:36, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

This is a medical question and so will not be answered here. --BenBurch (talk) 19:50, 4 June 2008 (UTC)


I want ACTUALLY asking for medical advice, I was just asking what the dangers would be of such a matter. There are many people admitted to the ward with overdoses etc and have to pass the often unattended toom to go out to smoke. I just wondered what could happen to the patient and things before I consider reporting it to staff if it isn't really a big deal 92.0.228.141 (talk) 20:00, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Ben they're not asking for any advice, they're just curious. Well, lidocaine should give you an insight into what the drug actually is and you'll soon find little damage could be caused unless you put it somewhere it wasn't supposed to go e.g. stabbing it into someones eye. Topical application e.g. rubbing, however, wouldn't really do much harm at all.
As for acetylcysteine, again read the article first. It's used for various purposes e.g. reversing paracetamol overdoses, mucolytic therapy and also has kidney-protective uses. Insensible use of the drug therefore must have side effects, no idea what though. It also has to be stated about the possible toxicity of acetylcysteine. Read the article for more info. Regards, CycloneNimrod talk?contribs? 20:23, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Oh and don't worry about the saline or sterile water, they're not dangerous at all really. Regards, CycloneNimrod talk?contribs? 20:25, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
As for lidocaine/lignocaine the amount needed to overdose (IV route) is very high. At least 9 vials of the type you specify. Topical application is harmless: it numbs you, full stop. Same goes for n-acetylcysteine, the biggest risk is that somebody will spill the drugs and slip on the wet floor. (Not as trivial a concern as it may seem). Fribbler (talk) 20:29, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
thanks for the help guys. COuldn't the lidocaine cause problems if injected? Like how far would it travel in the veins? I don't know a lot about pharmacology I#m afraid. And rubbing a vial on an area would numb it? Heh.. sounds wierd. Thanks though. What does "not dangerous at all really" in regards to the saline and water. I know they are technically harmless but what does THAT mean? 92.0.228.141 (talk) 20:40, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Lidocaine causes trouble if injected in large quantities, as my external link explains. Water and saline are technically harmless? Translation: Don't drill a hole in your head and pour them in, don't drink 758 litres of them in one sitting, don't pour them into an electrical outlet..... :-) We just like to be careful. Everything is dangerous if misused. Fribbler (talk) 20:47, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Wow, this has really got my inqusitiveness working. I mean how much of someone's arm/body would go numb from injecting it or rubbing it on? 92.0.228.141 (talk) 21:15, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
If it's injected subcutaneously then only a very small area is affected. Quite obviously a topical dosage will affect only the area it's applied to. As for IV, that's a little more complicated. It's all dependent upon the dosage really. Regards, CycloneNimrod talk?contribs? 22:32, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Ligno/Lidocaine is usually (but not by any means always) given with adrenaline, a vasoconstrictor that makes certain it won't travel too far to, lets say, affect the heart. Fribbler (talk) 22:49, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
True, the exception being when it's used to treat heart defects, particularly arrhythmias. Regards, CycloneNimrod talk?contribs? 23:24, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Naturally, as an antiarrhythmic, you want it to get to the heart of the matter :-) Fribbler (talk) 23:27, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
My personal feeling on this is that any unsecured materials are a concern, as they are a possible indication of carelessness on the part of the hospital staff, i.e. tomorrow it could be something more dangerous. If there is anything that could be casually stolen by someone walking by to go for a smoke, it's worth a call to the Director of Nursing, what harm will that do? Of course, they might just close the smoking area ;) Franamax (talk) 22:44, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
I couldn't agree more. Regards, CycloneNimrod talk?contribs? 23:24, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Thanks guys. I mean, as a member of staff in the prep room I see them lying about, but I don't know how accessible it would be to a patient. I am sure if the Sister on the ward had any knowledge of it it would be a different matter as she is the one who is answerable to the drugs. It's just a bit worrying. I don't know if I could say to the director as I have no idea who she is but it is something I will mention to the sister if I see it happen again. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.0.228.141 (talk) 18:28, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Dust from old books

While scanning books in my denomination's archives, I've noticed that some old notebooks (the oldest of which was first used in 1893, and the newest in 1916) leave some reddish-brown (I'd guess; I'm partially redgreen colorblind) dust on the scanner and on my clothes, which is rather difficult to brush off. The dust is obviously coming off of the binding. Can anyone tell me what it is, and/or how we can handle the books so that as little as possible comes off? Nyttend (talk) 19:58, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

By the way, I don't see any publication information, but the books were used by a group of churches that were mostly located in Kansas, so I'd guess that they were bought in the area. Nyttend (talk) 20:06, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Are the notebooks bound, wholly or in part, in leather? If so, this is probably the result of red rot. Unfortunately, nothing much can be done about it. Deor (talk) 20:21, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
The bindings seem to be leather. Thanks for the link: it seems to describe it quite well, especially the idea of the powdering and the feltlike consistency. I guess this is the reason I'm employed: we want to have the books digitized so that the records aren't lost. Nyttend (talk) 20:30, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Just to follow up … Here's a page from the British National Archives on the problem; and here's an article by someone who claims to have a treatment. The treatment doesn't look likely to solve the underlying problem, but it may inhibit the powdering off of the leather when the volumes are handled. Deor (talk) 20:55, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Why electricity 60Hz in some countries and 50Hz in other?

Why are there different electricity frequencies? Why not fewer? Why not others (a metric 100Hz, etc)? --70.167.58.6 (talk) 20:49, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

It's the usual reason that these things arise. People and companies working in different places made different decisions; by the time it became clear that this was becoming an important business and a single worldwide standard would be desirable, existing practice in different areas was too well entrenched; and the important companies whose choices had become the local standard weren't interested in changing their products to be compatible with someone else's from another country.
Lower frequencies are more efficient with certain types of motors used on heavy equipment and allow for more efficient power transmission; higher frequencies allow transformers to be built more lightly and reduce flicker in lighting supplies. Frequencies around 50-60 Hz turned out to be a suitable tradeoff point between these issues, but there have been large installations using lower frequencies from 15 to 25 Hz for industrial or railway use, and some of them still exist. (And in some areas these frequences have been in households, too -- Toronto was converted from 25 to 60 Hz power only about 50 years ago). As to higher frequencies, 400 Hz is used (I'm not sure how commonly) in aircraft electrical systems, and 20,000 Hz on the space shuttle.
See utility frequency. --Anonymous, 21:11 UTC, June 4, 2008.

[edit] Nuclear weapons underground (forgot to give this a title, sorry)

Well, I'm stumbling through this previously unknown Wikipedia section, and I already asked this somewhere else. Apologies. This appears to be the right place. I am writing a novel, and cannot find anything to help me out. A cache of nuclear weapons, simultaneously detonated a mile undergroung would produce what effect? Keeping in mind the necessary piping, elevators, and whatnot involved in a project that far down, what could I expect on the top, in regards to blast force, nuclear fallout, earthquakes and eruptions...

Thanks!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.201.115.120 (talk) 22:08, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Underground nuclear testing should give a good start. Bear in mind that it won't be all that dramatic except for (1) the immediate area and (2) the political fallout (other places will detect the explosion via seismometers, even if calling it an "earthquake" is exaggerating). — Lomn 22:19, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
If the site was badly planned, there could be radioactive venting to the surface, which has happened in the past. Other than that, triggering a nuke right at a fault could possibly trigger a major earthquake, there's always the possibility of groundwater contamination, releasing the cap on a high-pressure natural gas reservoir. But hey, aren't you the one with the vivid imagination? ;) Franamax (talk) 22:30, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Also, when you say an underground cache detonated simultaneously, keep in mind it has to be very, very simultaneous, a difference of milliseconds will result in the first nuke just blowing the other ones into vapour. Getting the right neutron density and critical mass is tricky business to trigger even a single nuclear detonation. Franamax (talk) 22:36, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
I agree that there would be fratricide; the first one to detonate would so disrupt others in the same room or in compartments nearby, that they would not produce a nuclear blast of any appreciable magnitude. Their high explosive components might detonate, but the additional band would be negligible in addition to the nuke. Detonating one nuke in an underground cache would be remarkably like the result of an attempt to detonate many in the cache. Not at all like a room full of conventional bombs. If the explosion vented to the atmosphere, the additional fissionable material would add to the radioactive contamination of the area. Edison (talk) 23:41, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
It is also likely that they would need to go off deliberately, it is very hard to accidentally detonate a nuclear weapon, due to the huge amounts of safeguards in them. It would be impossible to accidentally set off an entire cache. Prodego talk 03:20, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
I agree. A nuclear weapon is a surprisingly robust and fragile device in many ways. It is far easier to make one not work than to initiate one by accident. The explosive initiator in a warhead must detonate precisely; an outside explosion would in all likelihood impair the explosion. The first device would destroy the second, and the materials would be vaporized; if open to the atmosphere, it would create a secondary "dirty bomb" effect, but I have no idea how much. As far as earthquakes and the like: there would be a lot dependent on the structure of the earth, but I find it unlikely unless it were directly on a fault line. This plot sounds similar to that of Superman and of Space: 1999, both of which were unrealistic. --—— Gadget850 (Ed) talk - 10:40, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
One thing to keep in mind is that most currently fields US nukes are at most in the few hundred kilotons. That isn't all that much from a raw yield point of view (though it is considerably larger than the nukes used against Hiroshima and Nagasaki). How much is this "cache" going to have? What I'm getting at is that even if they did all go off, it would only be a few megatons in yield. I'm not sure but I believe the highest yield underground tests were conducted at Amchitka (around 5 Mt of yield in the Cannikin test). There were discussions about possibly triggering earthquakes, and it may have triggered some very light seismic activity, but nothing major.
For me the entire idea of a "cache of nuclear weapons" being stored in some deep underground vault is not very plausible. To my knowledge nuclear weapons are stored fairly on the surface in locked bunkers. If they were underground, they would not be in seismically active areas—not because of a worry that they'd trigger earthquakes, but because nuclear weapons are expensive and the risk of them being damaged by naturally occurring earthquakes would be too high. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 15:01, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
I agree with other comments that only the first nuke will detonate and destroy the others, unless they are very elaborately and intentionally timed to detonate at the same time, and even then it's questionable since there is so little room for error. Unlike nuclear test sites, the storage room sounds like it was not built to contain a detonation, as you describe elevators and piping going up to the surface. These would act as a chimmney for the rapidly expanding gas and vaporized rock. At a mile below the surface, the cache seems deep enough not to produce a crater, but you have to consider the yield of the bomb(s) and the composition of the earth above it. If it's loose enough dirt and a strong enough bomb, you could see a subsidence crater around it as the surface rock loses support from below; near the center of the crater is the chimney through which some of the ejecta managed to escape. This could go up thousands of feet, but would be much thinner than the mushroom clouds we've seen in pictures, due to the narrower orifice of the escaping gas. I'm not sure if you would see a mushroom shape to the cloud, but I don't see why not. Fletcher (talk) 18:27, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
If the fireball itself is wholly contained underground you should not get a mushroom cloud. The mushroom cloud of most nukes is caused by the rising of the heated fireball. (See mushroom cloud for full description.) If there was a significant disruption of the heated matter/gas rising then you'd get a real strange looking cloud, not a neat mushroom cloud. Look at how unpleasant the cloud can be if the bomb is hindered by something as simple as being enclosed in a ship: [35]. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 21:39, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Good point. That was a funky looking cloud. Fletcher (talk) 14:00, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] June 5

[edit] What is the latest scientific understanding of the relationship between dietary cholesterol & coronary heart disease?

The following is an excerpt from this article: [36]

[T]he maximum intake value for cholesterol of 300 mg ... was initially developed in 1968 by the American Heart Association for patients with high blood cholesterol .... Recent reviews of the scientific literature by U.S. authoritative bodies led such groups to conclude that "the relationship between cholesterol intake and LDL-cholesterol concentrations is direct and progressive, increasing the risk of coronary heart disease" and that cholesterol intake should be kept as low as possible within a nutritionally adequate diet.
To date, other countries viewing the same evidence as the U.S. come to the conclusion that the cholesterol in food is not the main influence on blood cholesterol ...

It seems that health authorities in different countries had access to the same evidence but came to very different conclusions about the significance of (high) dietary cholesterol intake as a CHD risk factor.

Could someone versed in the subject shed some light on what the best empirical evidence is telling us about dietary cholesterol & CHD? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.175.22.134 (talk) 02:29, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

CHD and coronary artery disease both require a multitude of factors that contribute to their development - it's difficult to talk about one single element, in this case, cholesterol. Yes, high LDL and low HDL show high risk, but now it's understood that such vascular diseases have oxidative stress and inflammatory components to them. Wisdom89 (T / C) 05:33, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

On balance, it can be seen that the cholesterol theory of CAD causation has its limitations. First, the liver--as part of normal metabolism--produces cholesterol, quite apart from dietary sources. Second, cholesterol far from being a "villain," is absolutely essential for hormone production and nerve transmission. Third, the evidence is that lipid deposition only occurs after coronary vessel damage from such factors as hypertension and free radicals. Fourth, the concept of simple deposition of fatty substances upon the vessel wall--from blood flow--is flawed. Such deposits occur on the sub-intimal layer, not the surface immediately facing the lumen of the vessel. Fifth, studies exist demonstrating just as high correlation between dietary factors such as high levels of simple carbohydrates (e.g., sucrose), as with cholesterol and lipids. The wise clinician would counsel his/her patients AGAINST dietary extremes, such as excess intake of cholesterol, fat, and refined sugar, and FOR exercise and supplements which might assist with neutralizing free radicals. He/she would also be particularly alert to the risk of CAD in his/her hypertensive patients. Drnovlamas2 (talk) 14:57, 5 June 2008 (UTC) (Dr. T.C.H.)

yeah, it's pretty complex. not only is cholesterol so necessary we produce it, studies where cholesterol is driven way down below 100 show a rise in death rate, from things like accident, homicide, suicide, etc. It may be just coincidence, but it's persistent enough to make you wonder how sensitive function of the brain, whose cell membranes are stabilized in part by cholesterol, might be to the level. and as a kicker, blood levels of cholesterol might be more sensitive to intake of saturated fat than to intake of cholesterol itself. which ties in to the recent failures of efforts to reduce blood cholesterol by interfering with its takeup from the digestive tract by flooding it with large quantities of plant sterols, which sounds like it would work if straight dietary intake of cholesterol were an important factor. and, of course, now we don't look at total cholesterol as so important any more, we have divided it into LDL, "bad", and HDL, "good"; there might well be further subdivisions we haven't identified yet. and as the guy said, the mechanism isn't just like clogging your kitchen drain with fat, it's an active inflammatory process involving some sort of injury to the arterial wall getting scarred up with cholesterol somehow involved in producing big obtrusive scars, with the assistance of white blood cells and so on. which throws the whole thing into the now hugely important category of immune system disorders which appears to cover everything from diabetes to cancer to arthritis. Gzuckier (talk) 15:17, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Unknown Equation

What is the name of this equation and what is its significance? What does it mean? \langle\Omega|\mathcal{T}\{\hat{\phi}(x_1)\cdots \hat{\phi}(x_n)\}|\Omega\rangle=\frac{\int \mathcal{D}\phi \phi(x_1)\cdots \phi(x_n) e^{i\int d^4x \left({1\over 2}\partial^\mu \phi \partial_\mu \phi -{m^2 \over 2}\phi^2-{\lambda\over 4!}\phi^4\right)}}{\int \mathcal{D}\phi e^{i\int d^4x \left({1\over 2}\partial^\mu \phi \partial_\mu \phi -{m^2 \over 2}\phi^2-{\lambda\over 4!}\phi^4\right)}} Ζρς ι'β' ¡hábleme! 05:15, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

I think it means, "I really wanted to show off when I was writing this equation". Or maybe, "Nah, nah, my brain is bigger than yours!" « Aaron Rotenberg « Talk « 06:23, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Holy shit, is that an integral inside an exponent inside an integral???? Someguy1221 (talk) 06:44, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Looks like it. As far as I can see this really looks like a meaningless, complicated equation created for the sake of it - though i'd be fascinated as to what it is if that isn't the case. ~ mazca talk 08:18, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
this looks like it is coming from conformal field theory or (quantum) statistical physics. Oded (talk) 09:56, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Well, shows what I know. :) failed all the quantum theory modules on his chemistry degree ---> ~ mazca talk 12:41, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
I don't know where it comes from (though something to do with quantum mechanics seems a safe bet), but this looks more like just a definition: the left-hand side is in Dirac bra-ket notation, and I'd guess the right-hand side to be just the same thing written out in more verbose notation. Also, the denominator on the right-hand side seems to be just a normalization factor. What context did you encounter it in, anyway? —Ilmari Karonen (talk) 10:39, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Well, I came across this equation in Uncyclopedia. However, I believe it is a legitimate equation because I saw exactly the same equation on some YouTube video (most likely about quantum mechanics or calculus). I saw that video when I hadn't yet edited Wikipedia, but had wanted to post a question about it when I started (I just couldn't recall it verbatum). I am pretty sure it is a quantum mechanics equation due to the context of the first time I encountered it, and the bra-ket notation. Also, φ and ψ are used quite a bit in quantum mechanics (I'm pretty sure), and quantum mechanics is known for its confusing equations, ideas, and such. Ζρς ι'β' ¡hábleme! 11:42, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
I'm pretty sure this is an equation from quantum field theory. And believe it or not, it is an abbreviated form - the D function in the integrals is a shorter way to write another function. I'm pretty sure the entire equation is the Green's function. PhySusie (talk) 12:17, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Looked it up. I thought it looked familiar. The notation is similar to that in "Introduction to Quantum Field Theory" by Peskin and Schroeder. This equation is used in perturbation theory for interacting fields. PhySusie (talk) 12:34, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
A difficult quantum field theory equation whose source is personal memory via Youtube via Uncyclopedia turns out to be genuine? I am stunned, I don't know what to say. Criticising someone for not using WP:RS is looking like a very shaky thing to do from now on. SpinningSpark 13:17, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Well, I saw it on YouTube first a while back and then Uncyclopedia last night (I thought it would be funny to see how they spoofed QM). I figured two exact, independent reproductions of the same very complicated formula could not be coincidental. Wait, was that sarcasm? Ζρς ι'β' ¡hábleme! 14:18, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Did it occur to you that maybe the video stole the equation from the uncyclopedia? --Shaggorama (talk) 15:28, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Bodybuilders

What is it that gives bodybuilders such leathery skin? —Angr 05:36, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Shave off the body hair and apply tan colour and oil. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 12:04, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
You think that's all? The leathery skin seems so universal, I figured it was something like building all that muscle mass increased blood flow to the skin which in turns hardens and reddens the skin and so on. —Angr 16:06, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Nah. It's just buckets of fake-tan. For increasing visible "definition". Have a look here and compare the pictures of Jay Cutler. He looks normal in the training pictures, then in the posing/in competition pictures he looks like he's made of mahogany. Fribbler (talk) 16:27, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
When bodybuilders are ready for competition they have very low BMI, which is one of numerous reasons bodybuilders have a distinct look compared to the Strongman_(strength_athlete) or Weightlifter. Bodybuilders don't have some inherent leathery skin, but years ago I had a mate I worked out with called Eddy Ellwood (see him here if you're interested [37]) who was one of the top guys around, when he was really cut I swear you could see the muscle fibres! Low BMI and increased vascularity changes the appearance of the skin to look 'leathery' but, as has been pointed out above, the oil and tan are more major factors. 87.112.89.101 (talk) 02:48, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
You can – across his pecs when he gets more into frontal transformer-type positions. Julia Rossi (talk) 04:11, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] research resources for the history of the discovery of anaerobism in bacteria

I need some quick resources that outline how our current information of anaerobism developed -- currently I only have information on who first discovered glycolysis which IMO would be quite after the realisation that bacteria could develop in anaerobic conditions. Also, was the distinction between prokaryotes and eukaryotes clear before the discovery of glycolysis and the other chemical processes involved in fermentation? Also how did our knowledge of the distinction of facultative and obligate anaerobes (as well as aerotolerant species, microaerophiles, etc.) develop? John Riemann Soong (talk) 07:59, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Asteroid

If we find a large asteroid heading for the earth, do we have the technology to make a gravitational tractor to save us? Bastard Soap (talk) 14:46, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

The article gravitational tractor mentions that a couple of guys have called it feasible. But, these guys are not exactly rocket scientists.. oh, wait. Friday (talk) 14:50, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
The largest unstated variable here is the amount of time. If you've got one year, no way. If you've got 25, perhaps. If you've got 50, almost assuredly. Note in particular that a grav tractor is slow-acting. Additionally, the mass of the asteroid is a concern -- the larger the asteroid, the less effective a grav tractor will be (and note also that for a sufficiently small asteroid, a Project Orion-style nuclear propulsion solution may be both faster and more easily accomplished). — Lomn 14:55, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
It would be unlikely for us to spot a planet smasher with 25-50 years notice. The percentage of the sky studied is very small. The financial allotment to such things just isn't enough to accurately forecast impact events. The Comet Shoemaker-Levy 9 was only spotted a few months before it impacted Jupiter. ScienceApe (talk) 18:57, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
That depends on the nature of the asteroid. Per our article on asteroid deflection, attention was recently paid to a potential 2029 encounter (21 years out). While that's been ruled out, orbital deflections raise the possibility of a 2036 encounter (28 years out). Further, (29075) 1950 DA is the solar system body with the highest presently known probability of impacting Earth, in 2880. Comets falling from the Oort Cloud and beyond -- no, we won't likely have 50 years' warning. Asteroids in the inner solar system? Utterly plausible. — Lomn 20:29, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
If it's soon, nuke it. If it's a while, paint one side white. Doable, WilyD 19:02, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Painting one side white is my favourite solution - it has a certain elegance to it. Blowing things up is all well and good, but giving it a makeover has serious class. I'm not sure it's always an option, though - I believe it depends on the rotation of the body. --Tango (talk) 21:51, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Shouldn't we also paint the other side black? -SandyJax (talk) 21:50, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
No need, a typical asteroid is pretty dark anyway (3-10% of light reflected), and most of the rest are still fairly dark (10-22%). --Tango (talk) 21:56, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

How does painting one side white help? Do only absorbed photons transfer momentum? Also how would you give it a make over exactly? Bastard Soap (talk) 07:37, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Reflected photons transfer more momentum that aborbed photons - a perfectly reflective surface experiences twice the radiation pressure of a black body. The theory is the same as the principle of the solar sail; implementation details can be left to the engineers. However, the pressures involved are very smnall - about 10-5 Pa at 1 AU from the sun according to this article. So, by my reckoning, radiation pressure on an asteroid with linear dimensions of the order of 1 km would generate an acceleration of around 10-8 ms-2, which would take years to significantly affect the asteroid's course. Also, the acceleration decreases in inverse proportion to the dimensions of the asteroid (because mass increases as the cube of the linear dimensions, but surface area only increases as the square) so the bigger the asteroid the less effective this method becomes. Gandalf61 (talk) 10:44, 6 June 2008 (UTC)


A large solar sail, robotically managed, could be tethered to an asteroid to provide far greater acceleration than merely painting one side white. If the asteroid is lose or crumbly, put a net around it and tether the sail to the net. An ion engine could be tethered to the asteroid instead, to provide small thrust over a long period. It does not take musc force to cause a miss years in the future. Bag it, move it, watch it sail by. Sayonara. Edison (talk) 13:54, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
I think the issue is in the definition of "significantly affect the asteroid's course". A very small change in course at one point in time can result in a very large chance of course years in the future, especially if the asteroid is going to pass close to another massive body (for example, the asteroid that's going to pass close to Earth in 2029 and then again in 2036 - a very slight change in its course before 2029 could result in a massive change in position by 2036, that's why we can't get a precise estimate of where it will be in 2036 until after the 2029 encounter, the slight errors get vastly magnified). --Tango (talk) 14:20, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Yarkovsky effect WilyD 14:25, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
... which has shifted the trajectory of asteroid 6489 Golevka by only 15 km over the course of 12 years. I rest my case. Gandalf61 (talk) 15:05, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Which is why if we don't have much time, we bust out the nukes. See my original comment - but also note that for a half black, half white asteroid, Yarkovsky is supercharged compared to the average colour difference across asteroids. If you have 50 or 100 years, it should work well. WilyD 15:13, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
If you do it far enough in advance, 15km could be plenty. --Tango (talk) 15:38, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

How exactly do you paint one side white? You send some paint bombs or something? Also how is it that reflected photons transfer more energy? And do reflected photons decrease in wavelength afterwards? Bastard Soap (talk) 19:15, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Celluar Biology

Is it true that some part of the blood is a watery fluid, and floating in it is fluid are round particles. Is blood formed in globules with little color, but looking reddish? Where is the oxygen stored in the red blood cells? Are all the blood cells the same shape in humans, is there a difference between animal blood cells and human blood cells, is it true that human red blood cells have a nucleus? What is a cell nucleus, I don’t understand what they are. What is the structure of the cell’s nucleus? What is the hard, clear part near the front of the eye that looks like a piece of glass or crystal? How many nerves does a muscle have in it . why do the muscle in a cow have a striped look, that look like rings and wrinkles, but why to the fiberd How come when you scrape off a bit of chalk, breaking the chalk particles apart, how come they aren’t white at all, they are clear or transparent, like glass, but when they are together, how can they add up to white. What cells does mold send out to make new mold, How are they formed and releases. Is the water in lakes that have “little green clouds” Are the clouds made from dew, why do they look like “earthy particles” and some green streaks, each streak is about as thick as a human hair, coiling in spirals, like snakes. Here is a description: Many little animals…Some were roundish ….Others, a bit bigger,…(were) oval (egg-shaped). On these last I saw two little legs near the head….Two…fins (were) at the rear end of the body….These animalcules (little animals) had divers (different ) colors. Some …(were) whitish and transparent (clear) …Others (had) green and glittering …scales…The motion of these animalcules in the water was so swift, and so various…that it was wonderful to see. These creatures are a thousand times smaller than the smallest living thing I have seen so far. A tiny, spiderlike mite that lives on cheese. When I compared sizes, I speak of volume, not length. A cheese mite is smaller than the dot at the end of this sentence. A “little animal” was about one tenth as long as a cheese mite. Rain Water This water that has been observed has stayed in a pot for several days Observation: Sometimes stuck out two little horns…. (these) moved after the fashion of a horse’s ears. The part between these little horns was flat, their body else being roundish….it ran somewhat to a point at the hind end…. (At this) end it had a tail, near four times as long as the whole body.. these are the most wretched creatures that I have ever seen. I feels sorry for them because they seem to get their tails caught on things all the time. When this happens: They pulled their body out into an oval. . . . (They) struggle(d), by strongly stretching themselves, to get their tail loose….Their whole body then sprang back towards the end of the tail….Their tails then coiled up serpent-wise….This…stretching out and pulling together of the tail continued. Tiny, hairlike structures went all around the top of each creature bell-shaped body. These hair formed a circle. From single angles, the hairs at the ends of the circle look bunched together. These bunches are what I thought were horns ( I had had not seen the other hairs at all). I now know that these hairs stirred up the water. These animals attach themselves to water plants. I soaked pepper in water for three weeks. I wanted to make it soft. Then the larger pieces —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.191.42.20 (talk) 15:23, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Hmm, is this homework? Ζρς ι'β' ¡hábleme! 15:33, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Seems to be a bunch of incoherent babblings. Clarify the specific question you are asking. Jdrewitt (talk) 16:00, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
The text from "here is a description" on seems to be at least partly from Antonie van Leeuwenhoek. I think just the part before that is the actual question(s). Anonymous, try asking fewer questions at a time. --Allen (talk) 16:48, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
I count 19 separate questions, all of which could be answered by looking at blood, blood cells, cell (biology), cell nucleus, eye, muscle, chalk and clouds. D0762 (talk) 16:48, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Brain

What is the result(or complication,s)of scatterd leigon's through out the light matter's of the brain?--216.37.249.110 (talk) 17:31, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Scattered legions are typically indicitive of occupation by the Romans. Complications include widespread viticulture, use of Latin and Jupiter worship...... Seriously though, a useful article... here. Fribbler (talk) 18:24, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
No, no, the op did not ask for legions, they asked for leigons which might be like reading the tealeaves in geometric figures. SpinningSpark 19:09, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Gentlewikipedians, it is considered bitey to poke fun at a questioner. To demonstrate the shred of sense of humor it takes to ridicule mispelling is not as good as demonstrating the intelligence it takes to figure out what it means and answer accordingly. We should also take pride in invariably exhibiting goodwill and a welcoming posture. And don't forget the roads. And the public baths. But really, don't bite. --Milkbreath (talk) 19:20, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Aw, come on let us have a little fun ;-). Ζρς ι'β' ¡hábleme! 19:48, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
I'm with Milkbreath on this one. If you want to have fun biting newcomers, do so with the ones that come here and write out their homework questions word for word (question numbers and all!). This is a serious question, it deserves a serious answer, regardless of an easily made spelling mistake. --Tango (talk) 21:26, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
True. Sorry OP! I did provide an answer in my response at least, though. :-) Fribbler (talk) 21:38, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Sorry too, without Fribblers excuse. SpinningSpark 21:46, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Wow, Tango, please calm down. I truly did not mean to offend anyone. I was only joking. Sorry, Ζρς ι'β' ¡hábleme! 23:11, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
And to help the original poster avoid these hazing rituals in the future, the word meant was presumably lesions. Confusing Manifestation(Say hi!) 23:33, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Isn't it a homework question?  :-} Julia Rossi (talk) 04:21, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Right i'm going to be useful and provide a decent answer for the OP here. I presume you meant lesions, in which case it depends very much where the lesions are in the brain. There are far too many nerves which stimulate far too many different processes to give you a definitive answer but to see a good example, i'd see multiple sclerosis, probably the best known of all the lesion-related diseases (although it is autoimmune). Regards, CycloneNimrod talk?contribs? 10:57, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

There are too many variables to predict what would happen: location, total volume of brain affected, lesion size, etc. But one very interesting phenomenon whereby the brain is injured by diffusely scattered lesions is called postperfusion syndrome, or "pump head". It has been proposed that cardiopulmonary bypass generates scores of tiny air emboli that travel to the brain and cause cell death, leading to subtle neurocognitive changes. --David Iberri (talk) 00:09, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Possessions

Hi. I am watching an episode of Most Haunted. It showed a man being "possessed" by two different spirits in succession. I have witnessed with my own eyes what seemed to be a woman being possessed and, apparently, exorcised. Some reliable acquaintances of me have described similar incidents to me. Could there be any truth to such "possessions". If not, what is the scientific explanation? Thanks. ReluctantPhilosopher (talk) 18:28, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

There is no truth to "demonic possession". There are many possible explanations for the phenomena that have led to a belief in demonic possession, among which are ergotism, mental illness (including especially histrionic personality disorder and monomania), and fraud (where a charlatan and his accomplice simulate the event). Hoax for hoax' sake can't be ruled out, either. Mass hysteria, another name for fervent religious belief, can lead people to believe they've witnessed what they have in fact not. --Milkbreath (talk) 18:46, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Take a look at this link [38].--Eriastrum (talk) 18:51, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Also see Spirit possession. A lot of people believe in spirit possession... I don't personally, but it is an integral part of some religions, like Haitian Vodou. So to say there is no truth to it is akin to saying there is no God; in other words, it might be a statement beyond the scope of science as the field is generally understood. Also, besides actually believing in spirit possession, there is a third explanation besides mental illness and dishonesty. This third explanation is when one is raised in a culture that believes in routine spirit possession, even healthy people can have experiences that they interpret as spirit possession. --Allen (talk) 19:22, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Ok, Milkbreath should probably have said "As far as science is concerned, there is no truth to demonic possession", but considering this is the science reference desk, he probably considered that implicit. Your third explanation is what, I think, he meant by mass hysteria. --Tango (talk) 21:22, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Sorry; I don't think I was clear enough. I actually was assuming that Milkbreath meant "as far as science is concerned." My argument is that, as far as science (as commonly understood) is concerned, science has nothing to say about the truth or falsehood of spirit possession, because belief in possession doesn't necessarily entail any empirical claims. I know it could be argued either that belief in possession does entail empirical claims, and it can also be argued that science does have things to say about non-empirical claims. I just wanted to point out that those aren't the kinds of responses you typically get from scientists about religious claims. --Allen (talk) 22:16, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
(ec) I am not a scientist, so I have nothing to lose by telling the truth—no faculty, no students, no grant granters, no constituency, no book-buying public. There is no such thing as a demon. My mother could tell you that, and she's no scientist, either. She would add that there's no such thing as monsters under the bed. But some of us will not be comforted, I guess. --Milkbreath (talk) 22:40, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

(Remove indent) ...science has nothing to say about the truth or falsehood of spirit possession. I disagree. Science may well say that given all of Milkbreath's alternatives, the chances that possession is true are pretty much negligible. Zain Ebrahim (talk) 22:35, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Science doesn't give absolute answers, it never has and it never will. The closest you get is whether or not there is significant evidence to support a theory, and in the case of demonic possession, there is no significant evidence to support it, so scientists will generally assume that it doesn't exist (unless they are specifically testing for it, of course). If there is demonic possession but it is in all ways indistinguishable for psychosis, then it isn't a scientific matter, and it is still accurate to say that, as far as science is concerned, there is no such thing (or, that it is just a form of psychosis). That's not saying there is no such thing, just that there is no empirical evidence to suggest that there is. --Tango (talk) 22:59, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps another way of putting that is "if there is no way, even in theory, to tell the difference between psychosis and demonic possession, then there is no difference between the two and now we're just talking about which name we should give this phenomenon". For the moment, "psychosis" is the more suitable name so I guess it will stick until psychotic patients' heads start spinning around. --Sean 23:07, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Don't all these arguments apply to God just as easily as to demons? Milkbreath, you're disclaiming a scientific perspective... but Zain, Tango, Sean, would you all be just as quick to say that, as far as science is concerned, there is no God? You'd have high-profile company, of course, in people like Christopher Hitchens... but I still think you'd be in the minority. --Allen (talk) 01:21, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
I am not making an argument. I am stating the obvious plainly. There is no such thing as a demon. --Milkbreath (talk) 01:36, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
I don`t see why any theory, regardless of whether God or demons are involved, cannot be tested using the scientific method. The principle of science (and of all academic disciplines) is, in brief, that an alleged phenomenon which cannot be proven convincingly is false. Thus, unless evidence that is more than 50% likely to be true is found supporting the existence of demons, one assumes demons are non-existant. The same concept applies to God; since there is no convincing reliable evidence that deities exist, they do not. One cannot simply read a book written thousands of years ago by unknown authors and consider it scientific proof. --Bowlhover (talk) 03:16, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
I'm a Christian and I consider myself a scientist too, but I keep the two very separate. "...that an alleged phenomenon which cannot be proven convincingly is false" is a bit ridiculous by any standpoint because even scientifically it doesn't make sense. In science there is no such thing as proof. Nothing is proven, at all. Nothing is disproven, at all. It just becomes overwhelming likely in either direction. If someone is looking for answers that science can't provide, religion can be the answer. On the other hand, religion clearly can't explain a lot of things and that's where human nature, and science, comes into it. But again this is just my opinion. Regards, CycloneNimrod talk?contribs? 10:54, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
You're right, "proven" is the wrong word, "demonstrated" would be better. Science is about rational, logical explanations for things, and that requires empirical evidence. Religion is about faith, it's a completely different matter. People like religion because of a basic fear of the unknown. Science can't answer every question we want answered (yet, at least), so people look elsewhere for the answers. The answers aren't particularly meaningful, but people don't really care about that, they just want an answer, and anything will do. This is the science reference desk, however, so we're interested in the scientific point of view, and in that point of view there are no demons and no gods, since there is no empirical evidence for them. --Tango (talk) 14:15, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
My intention was to say "that an alleged phenomenon for which there is little convincing evidence..." Religion can indeed provide answers, but those answers are not based on evidence but on the blind belief called faith. --Bowlhover (talk) 02:58, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

All right, thanks fellas, your responses were really illuminating. However I don't think we have to lump the existence of God with probable hoaxes like possessions, that's a different concept which may take many meanings. Thanks again! ReluctantPhilosopher (talk) 09:17, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, philosophically there is not too much difference. One religion's gods may well be another religions demons. Religions have evolved over time, and there is a lot of disagreement about which (if any) is right. On this I'm with Dawkins - why would one believe in one particular religion, but not into any of the other equally well supported (by evidence, not infrastructure, of course) ones? --Stephan Schulz (talk) 13:01, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
What I meant was one can have a religous view in which one believes in a higher spiritual truth or reality or power, but doesn't believe that the so called possessions are due to demons. For instance I consider accounts of possessions as superstitious and false but I still believe in (for very good philosophical reasons) in a higher truth which I endeavour to find out. And this higher truth doesn't have to be a "personal" good necessarily, nor a god of the gaps, but a real experience which solves the mystery of life. ReluctantPhilosopher (talk) 16:29, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

One should believe in one religion and consider all other religions bullshit because one has been grown in a culture that blindly believes in one religion and considers all other religions bullshit. I you think about it religion may be viewed as an organism which evolves and does anything it can to protect it's self. Bastard Soap (talk) 19:27, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

I think we might be getting a little off-topic... --Tango (talk) 20:29, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Social-dependance on alcohol

People claim that smoking relieves stress but are wrong because the equilibrium that the brain strives to attain actually results in smokers being more stressed when not smoking, such that their averaged-stress level is no better than that of non-smokers. Can the same be said of people that drink to relieve inhibitions? Do the brain compensate and make them more nervous and dependent on alcohol? Why? ----Seans Potato Business 19:53, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

No. If memory serves, alcohol is a depressant and nicotine is a stimulant. Drinking really does relax you, even if you're not an alcoholic. --Tango (talk) 21:12, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Alcohol addiction can lead to harsh withdrawal symptoms such as tremor, seizures, etc. This would be considered a stimulated state, though stress is probably not the right word. An alcoholic drinks alcohol because they are dependant, and need it to prevent the withdrawal symptoms. Most substance addictions lead to things like desensitization and downregulation of receptors, leading to physiological tolerance, so an increased dose is needed, until a point where the body is reliant on that substance for it to maintain properly. --Mark PEA (talk) 22:14, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Of course, if you are an alcoholic, you'll be dependant on alcohol in much the same way a nicotine addict is dependant on nicotine and will get similar withdrawal symptoms. However, the question was about the fact that it's wrong to say smoking relaxes you, since it's actually just relieving withdrawal symptoms, and whether the same can be said for alcohol, which it can't. Alcohol relaxes you whether you are addicted to it, or not. --Tango (talk) 22:54, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Withdrawal symptoms for alcohol can be quite severe, see Delirium tremens. No such thing for nicotine AFAIK. So no, withdrawal symptoms are definitely not similar. --Dr Dima (talk) 23:39, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
True. How about "and will similarly get withdrawal symptoms"? The symptoms themselves may not actually be the same, but the basic idea of withdrawal is a constant. --Tango (talk) 00:11, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Drinking really does remove inhibitions. Mostly has to do with fear. Fear is an inhibitor. Drinking dulls the senses and the emotional aspects along with it. ScienceApe (talk) 01:24, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

That's kinda semantics though. The end result is ultimately a dampening of one's "inhibitions" through diminutive senses, in this case, fear. Wisdom89 (T / C) 02:50, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Maybe another factor for an alcohol-assissted confidence boost is that you could blame it should something goes wrong. You could say that, "well I made fool of myself on the party because of the alcohol maybe the host should have provided a less intoxicating drink".--Lenticel (talk) 03:53, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Fear isn't a sense, it's an emotion. --Tango (talk) 14:07, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Alcohol affects the parts of the brain that control judgment. Part of the ability to feel fear comes from the ability to perceive consequences. Alcohol lessens the ability to perceive consequences, and thus reduces fear and inhibitions. Also, as has been mentioned before, alcohol is a nifty excuse in our society (NOT speaking from personal experience!) for having behaved badly or stupidly, as long as you don't do it too often. "You slept with WHOM? Oh, I get it . . . you had a few too many." (Spoken with a condescendingly sympathetic smile.) 66.215.224.253 (talk) 20:05, 7 June 2008 (UTC)Aletheia —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.215.224.253 (talk) 20:01, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Inner workings of the package that Edge shaving gel comes in

If I remember correctly, as you use up a can of Edge shaving gel, the can feels like it is empty at the bottom and full at the top. This is different for most other similar packaged comsumer products - the liquid inside a normal can of shaving cream obviously sits at the bottom of the can. So, I have two questions:

  • What exactly is going on inside the Edge can? Is there a pressurized balloon that expands pushing out product from the bottom to the top of the can?
  • Can you think of any other types of products that are packaged in a similar way?

ike9898 (talk) 21:56, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

An alternative guess: the cream could be in a pressurised balloon (or other kind of container) which shrinks as it's used up, and is attached to the top on the can. --Tango (talk) 21:58, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
I see a few patents for "floating piston" designs. Essentially the bottom appears to be a pressurized compartment (injected via the black rubber valve after the can is gel-filled and sealed), separated by a rubberized disk from a top compartment containing the gel. Gas expands, pushes piston up, forces gel out the top. DMacks (talk) 06:08, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
From my experience working for Gilette which makes a similar shave gel...the 'gel' is actually inside a pouch that is, as the op said, attached to the top of the can. The remainder of the can is filled with a pressurized inert gas that squeezes out the gel when the button is pressed on the top, which establishes a pressure gradient allowing for the squeezing to take place. EagleFalconn (talk) 14:18, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Can you speculate as to why such an unusual package is needed for this product? ike9898 (talk) 19:27, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

The common alternative for pressurize dispensing would be to have a siphon/dip tube going to the bottom of the container, with the gas "on top pushing down". That arrangement only works if the can is held vertically upright, however, whereas the squeezed-bag design works in any orientation. DMacks (talk) 19:50, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, guys. ike9898 (talk) 20:26, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Open access - self archiving

If someone self-archives their scientific papers, can they get a link on pubmed so people know that it's self-archived? Otherwise people have to cross their fingers and search, usually in vain, just in-case. ----Seans Potato Business 22:01, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

That's something to ask PubMed. If someone self-archives a scientific paper that wasn't published in any journal recognized by PubMed, then of course PubMed wouldn't link to it. On the other hand, if someone archives an article that is published in a recognized journal, if I were PubMed I wouldn't link to it. Links not under PubMed's control can become invalid, and maintaining a database of external links would be a nightmare. ~Amatulić (talk) 18:06, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] June 6

[edit] Ballpoint pen ink

I've noticed that the ink from many ballpoint pens-- as well as from cheap disposeable fountain pens-- has a reddish or coppery-brown sheen, regardless of the ink's color. However, this vanishes when the ink dries or sinks into the paper(although it remains visible on non-porous surfaces). What component of the ink causes this metallic appearance? 69.111.189.55 (talk) 02:12, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, until a chemist comes by, I found a patent for the composition of ball point ink: "An oil-based ink composition for a ballpoint pen which comprises a colorant, a resin and a solvent [of an alcohol... blah blah)" doesn't tell us much, but Ink brings up iron oxide. So for my money, oil sheen and/or iron oxide something. Julia Rossi (talk) 09:22, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Huge Problem

Up until just recently, I've had a huge problem. The temperature in my bedroom was 90 degrees Fahrenheit. (Only a slight exaggeration.) I finally broke down and got a window air conditioner, and while that solved the temperature problem, now I have another huge problem. Every five minutes (only a slight exaggeration), the AC, apparently, draws too much electricity. This causes my lights to dim, among other things. And now it's starting to effect other things. For example, it has caused my computer to turn off and restart right when I'm in the middle of things. Is there anything I can do (that won't get me electrocuted) to resolve this? Digger3000 (talk) 03:35, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Ask an electrician for help to upgrade your power, or secondly add a small UPS to your computer, so that it can withstand the power sags. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 06:01, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Household wiring is supposed to deliver a reasonably steady voltage even when a heavy load comes on. Your description makes me worry that some part of your wiring is actually defective and unable to pass the proper amount of current; or alternatively that your wiring is overloaded and the air conditioner should be blowing a fuse or tripping a circuit breaker, but it isn't because the wrong size fuse/breaker is in place. Either of those conditions could be a fire hazard. Obviously I'm not in a position to say if there is a real hazard, but I really think you need to get an electrician in and have this looked at. --Anonymous, 07:36 UTC, 2008-06-06.
Anonymous is right. You describe a dangerous situation. See "Overcurrent". --Milkbreath (talk) 10:31, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
From my limited knowledge, I believe air conditioners are usually installed by electricians because they draw more current than normal. They circumvent the normal wiring of the house, using stronger cables.59.100.206.238 (talk) 11:15, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

I figured you might suggest a UPS. But the thing is, I do have my computer plugged into a UPS. Even so, my computer has completely lost power a few times. Not every time the power sagged, but a few times. And even when the UPS does do its job, it beeps every time the power sagged. And as annoying as that is, it'll probably be even more annoying when my house is burning to the ground. Yeesh, I should probably get that checked out, soon. Do you think it would help at all if there were fewer things plugged in in my room? There's not really much I can unplug, but I could try it. Digger3000 (talk) 11:56, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes, as a temporary measure before getting an electrician to check your wiring I would definitley do whatever I could to reduce the load. -- Q Chris (talk) 13:34, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

A qualified electrician could monitor the voltage at the air conditioner outlet and at the main panel to determine the quality of the incoming voltage and the voltage drop from the panel to the outlet. I do not recommend an amateur trying to measure/correct these possible electrical problems because electricity can kill you. Low voltage at the air conditioner outlet can cause the motor to draw more current to maintain its mechanical output to the airconditioner compressor. The additional current causes the voltage seen by the air conditioner to drop, in a vicious circle until the current is so high that a breaker trips or the air conditioner motor overheats and a thermal protective device in it cause it to trip offline to cool down. Then the cycle repeats. Blowing a fuse or tripping a circuit breaker at the house utility panel may occur. The causes may be multiple, and in combination: 1)A long run of small (#14) wire from the utility panel to the air conditioner outlet. (Helped by having an electrician run a #12 20 amp circuit from the panel to the outlet. Putting in a larger fuse would be idiotic, of course). 2)Use of an extension cord to run the AC (Try plugging it directly into an outlet) 3)The circuit may be loaded down with other loads, such as the computer you mentioned. (Remedy:Get the air conditioner on its own circuit). 4)The air conditioner might be defective, inefficient or too large. Try a different one of the same size if available. Try a high efficiency one with a higher energy efficiency rating, which should draw less current, or try a smaller air conditioner. 5)The service wires from the transformer to the house might be too small, resulting in too-low voltage when the building draws high current. This is a job for an electrician or the utility, depending on where you live. 6) There might be a loose neutral connection between the utility and the house or inside the house wiring. Symptoms might be some light getting brighter when the air conditioner circuit voltage drops. A job for an electrician and the utility. 7)The utility might be supplying low voltage, due to loose connections in the service wires, your transformer being too small, a heavily loaded circuit or to your being near the end of the circuit, or to a lack of capacitor banks, or to intentional voltage reductions (brown outs) or to poor voltage regulation at the substation or along the feeder. If this is diagnosed by actual measurements, complaints to the utility, or to your public officials if the utility won't correct their deficiency,might get corrective action. If you can report to the utility that an electrician has measures illegal low voltage for extended periods (over 1 minute) at the main panel with an accurate RMS volt meter, you could demand that the set a recording voltmeter at the meter, to confirm the finding, and that they then correct it. In many US locations 114 volts (5% below 120) is the minimum legal voltage at the electric meter. This allows the voltage to drop a bit in the house wiring and still be able to operate the air conditioner at the other end of the house. Edison (talk) 13:42, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Here's your answer. But as a stop gap solution you might just try putting it at a colder setting to make it run longer. It's the compressor start-ups that draw the most current. Or let it cool the room first, then turn it off and cool yourself with a fan for a few hours. Fletcher (talk) 14:12, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Another Unknown Equation

In the spirit of the question above, what's the meaning of engie's "favourite" equation? --antilivedT | C | G 05:22, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't know what it means, but it's not an equation (no equals sign). Algebraist 13:27, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
It is apparently an expression for the amount of light reflected from an object illuminated by several sources. It's used in ray tracing. [39] --Heron (talk) 20:18, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Holographic projection...

i would like to know if there is a technology confirming to holographic projection such that the projection is not made on any solid or liquid medium as in the case of Musion's 'Eyeliner foil' —Preceding unsigned comment added by 61.17.218.119 (talk) 07:02, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Yeast and brewing

Does anyone know how to balance this reaction? C12H22O11 = C2H5OH + CO2 All the reactions I can find use glucose. But when making beer, they don't use glucose, they use maltose. I can't work out how to balance it though.

Thanks, Wikiwikijimbob (talk) 12:23, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Don't discount the possibility that you might need a water molecule on one side or the other - on a brief look it seems to balance similarly to glucose if you add a water molecule on the left hand side. Not sure, though, but it's worth checking. ~ mazca talk 13:03, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
I'm going to second and say that you're going to need a water molecule on the reactant side and also may have copied down the formula of the original carbohydrate wrong. Carbohydrates have a C:H:O ratio of 1:2:1. EagleFalconn (talk) 14:26, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
No, that's the correct formula of maltose. Algebraist 14:30, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
The C:H:O ratio of 1:2:1 is only true for monosaccharides, and only in its most narrow meaning (discounting e. g. deoxy sugars). Icek (talk) 18:10, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] effect of overly large stimulus

Assuming you have a way to bypass the senses, imagine you have a microphone, a mechanical tounge, an artificial nose and a camera attached directly to your brain. What would happen if you received 100000000dB,the full light u a supernova and any other overly large stimulus which would normally devastate your receptive organs? 193.188.46.64 (talk) 12:37, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Your guess is as good as anyone elses, it is difficult to give definitive answers to such speculative questions. Jdrewitt (talk) 13:08, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
For any realistic artifical sensory apparatus, though, it will be devastated by such a stimulus, just as an unassisted human would be. Algebraist 13:23, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
And even if it wasn't, a proportional signal to your brain would probably involve sufficient current that brain damage would ensue. Not to mention the effects on the rest of your body of being close to a supernova or a 100,000,000db noise! ~ mazca talk 13:26, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
I think the question is assuming that the artificial sensory apparatus are robust enough to cope with the stimulus however large and it is purely asking how would the brain interpret the signal (not how the rest of the body will cope). It really depends on how the sensor communicates to the brain which is too speculative since such a technology does not exist. Jdrewitt (talk) 13:35, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Does the OP realise that the dB scale is logarithmic, and a 108dB noise would have energy immeasurably greater than that of the observable universe? Algebraist 13:47, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
(ec with algebraist)Just to put this in perspective, the entire output of the sun is around 638dBμ. Even the largest galaxies with 1012 stars still output less than 1000dBμ. I doubt that the amount of power represented by 100,000,000dB could be generated in the entire universe. Exposed to that kind of output, you are going to have bigger worries than what your sensors are made of. Sensors, you, your brain, your planet and your galaxy are all going to be vapourised. SpinningSpark 13:50, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
I think the most serious problem is that it'll cause the gravitational collapse of the entire universe. Algebraist 14:04, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
To be charitable to the OP I think we should assume the energy is just larger than what a person would normally encounter (but not so large as to destroy the universe!), and that the subject's body is protected from it, so he experiences it only through the artificial sensors. Not being a neuroscientist I really can't say what would happen; however, it seems unlikely the brain can distinguish signals at levels that would kill the physical body. I would think there is an upper limit beyond which it makes no difference how strong it is; the brain will interpret it as extreme light, extreme noise, etc. The artificial sensors would have to progressively step-down the signal so as not to damage neurons. A brighter light would have to be stepped down further, resulting in no difference in perception. But i don't know what happens at that upper limit of stimulation -- would it provoke a fight-or-flight response, a panic attack, a seizure? Fletcher (talk) 14:56, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
They would be rather poorly designed sensors if they provided enough current to damage the brain, they would reach their maximum safe output levels and that would be it. You'd see nothing but white and hear probably nothing but a whoosing sound of all the matter traveling past or perhaps a banging noise from the shockwave, if the sensors were calibrated to normal human sight and hearing. If they were calibrated for optimum observation of a supernova, then you would see the supernova, the amount of energy that the sensors receive does not have to correlate to a larger amount of energy put into the brain. Brain-computer interface may be enlightening. -- Mad031683 (talk) 16:39, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Higher intensity of sensory input causes higher frequency of neuron firing, but no change in the action potential. The frequency is limited by the time needed to restore the resting potential, at least a few milliseconds. Icek (talk) 18:04, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
While I don't think these directly answer the OPs question, they may be interested in visual prosthesis and neural prosthetics as they describe the current state of the art. SpinningSpark 16:58, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

I was indeed assuming that the sensors where robust enough, and I just typed in an insanely huge number to stress that no person could receive such a stimulus naturally. So assuming the electronic interface communicates using normal neurons the largest signal possible will be determined by the inactive time of neurons? I was mostly interested in how would the brain change to accomodate these stimulus. How does the brain change in response to normal stimulus? Bastard Soap (talk) 20:07, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] flowers

which part of the flower is the pollen & the egg cells produced? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.10.123.85 (talk) 14:17, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Have you looked at flower and plant anatomy? Those might be good places to start. Friday (talk) 14:39, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Hypothetical Suicide only

This question has been removed due to the possibly dangerous outcomes that could amount from any answers given. Not only could the answers be seen as morally fragile, but there may also be legal implications should anyone stumbling upon the page take action with what they've heard. For these reasons I have removed the question, should anyone disagree they can talk to me further on my talk page. My sincere apologies to the OP. Regards, CycloneNimrod talk?contribs? 21:12, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Diagnosticians

What do diagnosticians actually do and why are they necessary when there are plenty of doctors who are specialised in different fields of medicine? Thanks. Clover345 (talk) 17:48, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

There are consultants for every field indeed. But what if you don't know which consultant to refer a patient to? Many symptoms are vague: Malaise, lethargy, widespread pain.... A diagnostician specialises in signs and symptoms rather than any specific disease or organ system. In many ways general practitioners act as diagnosticians (especially in the UK and Ireland where you cannot see a consultant directly, only by GP referral). Fribbler (talk) 17:59, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
According to the entry on diagnostician, it's simply a generic term for someone who makes diagnoses, and that someone is most likely a doctor. ~Amatulić (talk) 18:02, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Could an A&E consultant act as a diagnostician and are there diagnosticians other than GPs in the UK? Clover345 (talk) 18:11, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
An A+E doctor (any rank) is a good example of a diagnostician. As far as I know, here in Ireland (which usually means it's the same in the UK) there arn't any "diagnosticians" by title such as there are on House. Fribbler (talk) 18:19, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Here in the U.S., "diagnostician" is a descriptive term, not a specialty.Scray (talk) 03:41, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Building the Alaska Highway

I can't find any article which contained information about the US Govt separating African-Americans road builders from the native peoples of Alaska when clearing to build the Alaska Highway. They were afraid that they could "produce hideous children" or something of that nature. I either read about it or saw a documentary on the Discovery Channel. The reason why I ask this, is that I happen to know a girl who is exactly half Aleut and half African-American and she is the most beautiful woman I ever seen. I wanted to reference that fact to her but couldn't find it on the net. --Vincebosma (talk) 19:49, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] BACILLI MICROORGANISMS

1)HOW DOES IT LIVE?

2)WHERE DOES IT LIVE (ITS ENVIRONMENT)?

3)DOES IT THRIVE BEST ALONE OR WITH OTHER MEMBERS?

4)WHAT ASSISTS IN ITS EXISTANCE?

5)HOW DOES ONE BECOME INFECTED WITH IT?

6)(CHAIN INFECTION) HOW DO MICROORGANISMS CAUSE INFECTION AND HOW TO PREVENT ITS SPREAD?

Genisa (talk) 19:51, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Mmmm. Tasty, tasty homework. Sorry, we won't answer these for you but we can point you in the direction. Unfortunately, I don't know enough about this topic. Regards, CycloneNimrod talk?contribs? 20:11, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
No, we cannot really answer these for you. Besides, it'll be worth your while to do a little research. Allow me to point you in the direction of a great and very informative website. [40]. Wisdom89 (T / C) 20:21, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Largest molar mass

What known compound has the largest molar mass? 65.31.80.94 (talk) 20:49, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Periodic table. Wisdom89 (T / C) 20:50, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
He asked for a compound. That can't be determined solely from the periodic table, can it? Ζρς ι'β' ¡hábleme! 21:04, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Well excluding answers like macroscopic crystals and neutron stars, the answer is probably a protein. The largest one in the human body is Titin at nearly 3 million Dalton. Any advances? SpinningSpark 21:35, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
DNA. Dragons flight (talk) 22:18, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Backelit or any other cross linked polymere or a piece of graphite a sio2 crystal ..... there are many possible canidates.--21:38, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

I think for the purposes of this challenge that we can exclude polymers, as crystals are also excluded and look for a compound with a well defined formula, and therefore molecular weight. Earlier here we were trying to identify the densest gas. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 22:54, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Phthalate

Though controversial, phthalates are still being used in a variety of household applications (shower curtains, adhesives, perfume), modern pop-culture electronics and medical applications such as catheters. Notable recent examples include Apple Inc.'s iPhone and iPod, and personal computers. The company has been criticized by environmental supporters claiming that tests on a commercially-purchased iPhone returned "toxic" levels of the chemical, prompting public declarations for change due to its associated hazards.

—[1]., http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phthalate
Are iPod nanos included?21:49, 6 June 2008 (UTC)68.148.164.166 (talk)

[edit] Natural occurence of dry ice?

Does solid CO2 occur naturally anywhere on Earth? At high pressures, for example? Or the at -89.2C (cf. sublimation point of CO2 -78C), would CO2 precipitate from the air?

Cheers!

Aaadddaaammm (talk) 22:08, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

I have heard that the small partial pressure of CO2 means that only a tiny amount of Carbon Dioxide solidifies, even at extremely low temperatures, so any dry ice formed would be invisible. Can't remember where I heard/seen that, though. Fribbler (talk) 01:12, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
Probably not naturally, although there may occasionally be liquid carbon dioxide in Carbonatite volcanic eruptions which start from the mantle. After the sun dies however there should be carbon dioxide frost formed, if the earth survives. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 23:00, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
Even if the Earth survives, the atmosphere will probably be completely blown away, so there won't be any CO2 to sublime. --Tango (talk) 10:42, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
This chart indicates a vapor pressure of about 0.02 bar = 2 kPa at 154 K. The atmospheric partial pressure is only about 38 Pa. So even at -119°C it wouldn't solidify, for the same reason that water doesn't condense as long as relative humidity is below 100%. Icek (talk) 21:22, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] June 7

[edit] Stones in trees in Yellowwood State Forest

Regarding the new Wikipedia article about Yellowwood State Forest, is it possible the stone simply sat down on saplings and waited for them to grow? --77.125.94.96 (talk) 01:17, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

That's impossible. If a large boulder was weighing down a sappling, there is no way it would have been able to not only grow, but be able to support the weight of the rock, especially if it was just starting to grow.--十八 01:43, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
In any case it seems to me that it's just as unlikely that the boulder walked over and sat on a sapling as it is that it climbed a fully grown tree by itself. SpinningSpark 00:59, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Phobos (moon)

I have a book on Mars with me that says if Phobos survives the Roche limit and does not break up, the moon will blast a crater over 100km across on Mars. How is the crater's diameter calculated given the object's velocity and volume?--十八 01:45, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Just to let you know, this smells a little bit like a homework question. But answering your question straightforwardly, I would imagine that the crater's diameter is calculated given the object's velocity and mass (not volume) based on the energy that would be delivered to the regolithic substrate, this latter mostly based on theory investigated by experiments conducted by curious physicists tossing projectiles into things that resemble the Martian regolith. --arkuat (talk) 09:21, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
The article Impact crater might help. SpinningSpark 10:12, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
[41] has some information, for Earth at least. --Fangz (talk) 11:20, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
Thanks, I found this site through the site you provided which works fine. Also, to answer Arkuat's speculation, it's not homework per say. I'm writing a research paper and I wanted to calculate which parameters would have to be taken into effect for the crater to be over 100 km in size, as stated in the book (as it just gave the figure, not the calculations, or even the parameters, involved).--十八 00:54, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Sorry for my speculation, I ought to have edited it out before posting. arkuat (talk) 05:46, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Hi. This simulator has impacts for other planets, but it's a bit oversimplicified, and uses Marvin Martian as its theme. Thanks. ~AH1(TCU) 13:57, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Threshing and winnowing?

In agriculture, what is the relationship between the activities of threshing and winnowing? What I mean is, are they:

  • exclusive either-or activities, two different ways of accomplishing the same purpose (that is, if you thresh, you do not need to winnow, or if you winnow, you do not need to thresh) OR
  • both required activities that do not accomplish the same purpose (and if this is the case, does threshing have to come before winnowing, or winnowing after threshing, or does the order not matter?)

—Lowellian (reply) 01:49, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

The latter (and the former). Threshing means bashing the grains to get the chaff (seed-coats, bran) off the grain (what later gets ground up into flour). Winnowing means throwing the resulting mixture (separated, but still mixed in a heap) into the wind or water, to make a bunch of chaff floating away on the wind or water, and a heap of grain sinking in the wind or water. I'm guessing the confusion arises from modern-tech agricultural combines that do both jobs with one vehicle. --arkuat (talk) 06:38, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Hybrid car mileage

Why do hybrid cars get better gas mileage in city than highway tests, when no others do? NeonMerlin 02:20, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

On the highway, a major energy loss is to wind and road friction, losses not addressed by hybrid technology (and hybrid generate most of their electricity during braking, which doesn't happen much on the highway). In the city, energy loss is during braking and idling. Hybrids recovery energy during braking, and shut off the gas engine during idling. Perhaps others have more technical answers, but I think of it in terms of primary energy loss and how it can be recovered.Scray (talk) 03:20, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
Interesting answer. I had always assumed -- without giving the matter much thought, until now -- that it was simply that batteries can't make a car go 60 mph.
So, Scray and I are both interested in others' more technical answers! -- Danh, 70.59.116.253 (talk) 22:54, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
Scray basically is right, there is not much to add. Electric engines are highly efficient, but the energy ultimately has to come from the IC engine. If you need continuous high energy output, your IC engine will run either way. The primary advantage of the electric engine is in energy recovery during braking and idling. And yes, batteries can make a car go any reasonable speed - this just depends on the dimensions of the engine. The first few land speed records were all obtained with electric cars (although the fastest one was only 65 miles per hour). --Stephan Schulz (talk) 23:35, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] A possible method for superluminal travel

I thought that if there is a warp in space, the area doesn't change, but the warp is curved. So, if anybody could travel straight forward in a warped area without being pulled to the center of gravity, the distance will be cut and superluminal travel may become possible. Can you please tell me is this method possible? Please reply!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Superwj5 (talk • contribs) 08:02, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

  • Have you read the article on dark energy and especially the section on negative pressure yet? If not, I'm afraid you'll have to rephrase your question in simpler terms. --arkuat (talk) 09:11, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
  • You might find the article Alcubierre drive interesting (but highly controversial) and also most the scientific papers cited in that article have links to online preprints. Another of our articles that you could look at is wormholes. SpinningSpark 10:20, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Much as I would like to have FTL travel (preferably in my lifetime), Einstein tells us that any form of superluminal communication will break causality - i.e. you can get next weeks lottery numbers today. Given that choice, I vote for a proper sequence of cause and effect.... --Stephan Schulz (talk) 13:41, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
    As long as you have local causality, things should be ok, and space warping techniques usually don't involve travelling faster than light locally, just faster from the perspective of the rest of the universe. Just losing global causality means what people usually call "time travel", is it really so bad to have a universe which allows for time travel? --Tango (talk) 13:34, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
    Yes! Nature abhors a time paradox... --Stephan Schulz (talk) 13:30, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
    Time travel doesn't necessarily involve paradoxes. --Tango (talk) 16:43, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
What you describe sounds similar to a possible method of time travel I read about (superluminal travel and time travel are very closely related) involving cosmic strings. I believe there were two orbiting each other and as you went round them in a particularly way, you got back to where you started from before you left. I don't remember the details, but it sounds vaguely like your idea. If wouldn't work with regular matter, it needs to be a cosmic string. --Tango (talk) 13:34, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
Many of these methods are summarized at Time travel# Time travel to the past in physics. Clarityfiend (talk) 18:54, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Reduce voltage drop through a diode

I'm making a solar-powered microcontroller device using 5 0.47V 100mA max solar panels in series, feeding through a 7660 to double the voltage to power my IC (Atmel ATTiny13V) and my RF transmitter. According to the datasheet, I need 2 diodes in series from the 7660's output. That's 1.4V drop already, which is way too high for my purpose. I've switched to Schottky diode but that's still over half a volt lost. What are some ways to further reduce this loss? I've looked at synchronous rectification but have no idea what parts are available for drop in replacements for my diodes; I've also thought of using a transistor with the base and collector connected together, will that work? --antilivedT | C | G 08:50, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Why do you have to use that device in particular? There are heaps of dc-dc converters out there for all kinds of different voltages. You would be better off selecting a device for the voltage you want to deliver, see for instance [42], rather than jump through hoops getting this one to do what you want. The one you have picked seems to be specifically for generating a negative rail from a positive one and can also co-incidentally do voltage doubling. Basically, it is not the best chip for the job. A quick Google search or a look through an electronics component catalogue will get you lots more to choose from. SpinningSpark 11:00, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
Availability is one thing, that device being instantly available is a huge plus. The one that you've linked to is a regulator not a voltage converter and therefore unsuitable for my use. Inverting voltage and doubling voltage are based on pretty much the same principle anyway so it's not unusual to see both functionalities on the same chip. --antilivedT | C | G 11:54, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
Actually, I think you will find that that device I pointed you to is a switching device rather than a linear regulator, it is just made to be pin compatible with linear regualtors of the 78xx series. However, your complaint is justified because it is step-down rather than the step-up you need. Sorry, my bad. Try this one [43]. I know inverting and doubling can be done with the same device, but neither of those things is what you really need. Availability - you are in New Zealand right? Try here [44]. SpinningSpark 13:59, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
No that's still not suitable for my use. My input voltage (from the solar cells) is only 2.35V max, and will almost certainly be lower than that during most of the day. I only need 20mA at the most so a device that can supply 2.5A is quite an overkill for me. --antilivedT | C | G 23:06, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] United States Of America

Q:When is the national blonde brownie day celebrated in the U.S —Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.194.193.239 (talk) 12:28, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

See here: Wikipedia:Reference desk/Miscellaneous#United States Of America - Copied over there as this is the science desk. Regards, CycloneNimrod talk?contribs? 13:16, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Cancer stage vs grade

Is there a difference between the terms grade and stage with respect to cancer classification? --Seans Potato Business 17:17, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

The stage refers to the invasive ability of the cancer. The grade refers to how similar the tumor is to the surrounding tissues. See Cancer#Classification. Regards, CycloneNimrod talk?contribs? 17:48, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
I think some clarification might help: Stage is the degree to which the tumor has invaded, not its ability to invade (a very aggressive tumor, with high ability to invade, can be detected at an early stage, i.e. before it has actually done much invading). Grade is determined by comparison to benign (surrounding) tissue, but is actually the dissimilarity relative to normal tissue (high grade means very different from normal).Scray (talk) 20:08, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
Scray is correct. A common saying in pathology helps one keep the two straight: "grade the tumor, stage the patient". --David Iberri (talk) 00:00, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Stopping earth quakes

We have articles on weather control and asteroid deflection, but are there any proposed methods on stopping earth quakes? Is it possible to do this? ScienceApe (talk) 17:33, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

It's really not feasible since we can't stop plates from colliding with each other. Regards, CycloneNimrod talk?contribs? 17:49, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
We had a discussion of this last year. See Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Science/2007 October 11#Controlling earthquakes by setting them off. Algebraist 18:59, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Phenylketonuria

I have todo a 15 page essay on Phenylketonuria, and i need alot of research from this site, do you know where i can find 15 PAGES of INFORMATION including, pictures, graphs and websites that my science class can visit


--Katiesorfleet (talk) 17:38, 7 June 2008 (UTC)katiesorfleet

Phenylketonuria is a good start. That's the only article we have on it, otherwise just use Google. Regards, CycloneNimrod talk?contribs? 17:50, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
Specifically, look at the sources at the bottom of Phenylketonuria. Like any other encyclopedia, you should not be using Wikipedia as a research paper source; you should using to get a general overview of the subject. Paragon12321 (talk) 21:17, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Why is LSD illegal?

? ScienceApe (talk) 19:07, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, the risk of a bad trip comes to mind. For other reasons you might want to read about the effects in the LSD article. - Dammit (talk) 19:12, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
According to the DEA, because it has "a high potential for abuse and serve[s] no legitimate medical purpose" [45], Someguy1221 (talk) 19:14, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
So same as alcohol and tobacco right? ScienceApe (talk) 02:53, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
I agree on tobacco (no redeeming qualities) - if it came to market today it would never get approved (so I can only surmise it is vested interests including farm lobbies and addicts that sustain the business). Alcohol in moderation, however, appears to have some benefits like reducing heart disease. Scray (talk) 03:29, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Meanwhile marijuana, which does have a legitimate medical use and less of a danger from abuse than alcohol, remains illegal. I'd agree it's all a matter of when it was introduced. Those drugs introduced early on were accepted while the latecomers are seen as dangerous: "Those damn kids with all their pot, it makes me so mad, now light my cigar and get me my whiskey !". StuRat (talk) 18:26, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
(ec) Because legislators in whatever jurisdiction it is you're talking about have made it so. In many jurisdictions, this is required by the UN Convention on Psychotropic Substances (full text). The preamble to that treaty states that it was passed to safeguard public health. Presumably they were thinking of flashbacks and Hallucinogen persisting perception disorder. Algebraist 19:18, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Toothpaste toxicity (fluoride)

There's a warning label on every tube of fluoride toothpaste that states that the poison control center should be contacted in case more toothpaste is swallowed than is used for brushing. This is because fluoride, the active ingredient in most toothpaste designed for adults, is toxic and can cause acute sickness or death if taken in sufficient concentration. Of course, almost nothing is entirely safe (even drinking too much water too quickly can prove fatal), and warning labels are notoriously overcautious. We've all swallowed toothpaste now and then with no ill effects. How much toothpaste would have to be ingested in order to induce fatal fluoride toxicity in an average-sized (say, 170 lb.) adult? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.215.224.253 (talk) 19:51, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Maybe you should read fluoride poisoning. Anyway, there's no warning label on my tube of fluoride toothpaste. --Heron (talk) 20:24, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
Looks as though the probable toxic dose is about 5 mg/kg (many sources). Given your example of a 77 kg (170 lb) adult, that would be about 385 g. Labels of toothpaste I see list fluoride ion content around 0.14% w/v (0.14 g/100 mL, or 1.4 g/L), so 385/1.4 = 275 L (35.75 gallons). That's a lot of toothpaste!Scray (talk) 20:32, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

So we're looking at the thirty to forty gallon range - wow. Thanks, Scray. I guess the warning label is decidedly overcautious after all. According to the toothpaste article, ingesting too much toothpaste can cause minor digestive upsets such as nausea and vomiting, so I suppose someone has ingested enough of it in the past to suffer some discomfort, but it isn't anything serious after all as the packaging would imply (and Huron, most brands do include such a warning label on the box the toothpaste comes in or on the tube itself, as the aforementioned article will confirm). Stupid warning labels. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.215.224.253 (talk) 20:57, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Umm isn't it 385 mg, which is 0.385g? At that level it'd only take 275mL, or roughly 2 tubes of toothpaste to reach the toxic dosage. --antilivedT | C | G 23:33, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
Yes, I think you're right. However, our article says the lethal dose is about 70mg/kg, did Scray drop a 0? What are the many sources? Or does toxic dose differ from lethal dose? --Tango (talk) 01:08, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
My deep apologies - and thanks to 66.215.224.253 for catching my gross slip of the prefix (i.e. I jumped from mg to g). I should have said 385 mg (not g) of fluoride, which then equates to about 275 mL of toothpaste, or a little more than 2 "family size" toothpaste tubes as the toxic dose. The lethal dose, about 14 times that (5 vs 70 mg/kg) would be about 30 large tubes of toothpaste. So, spit don't swallow, and don't worry about the fluoride unless someone comes up with convincing evidence that lower doses are toxic.Scray (talk) 01:30, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
This is all, of course, assuming it would be a adult that ate the toothpaste, which seems highly unlikely. If it were a young toddler, the lethal dose would be much more feasible. Paragon12321 (talk) 04:24, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Wouldn't it be just as unlikely for a toddler to swallow a propotional amount of toothpaste, say 3 large tubes, as for an adult to swallow 30 ? Also, wouldn't they get ill from things other than fluoride (like the artificial sweeteners) at lower quantities of toothpaste ? StuRat (talk) 18:18, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] applied sciences

Why is it that a physicist can become an engineer buu a biologist cannot become a doctor? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Clover345 (talk • contribs) 20:47, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Biology is a very different job than medicine. There's a difference between knowing how a cell works and knowing what to do if something is wrong with it. Generally, no one dies if a biologist makes a mistake. Paragon12321 (talk) 21:15, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
There is a difference between theoretical knowledge and practical skills. A physicist knows the theory behind engineering, so can probably design a nice new bridge, say, but they couldn't pick up a welding torch and make it. Likewise, a (human) biologist knows all the theory about how the body works, but they can't just pick up a scalpel and start cutting bits out of it. Knowing the theory is a good start and would certainly help you in a related applied job, but there is more to learn before you can actually start doing it. --Tango (talk) 21:20, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
I agree with Tango, though I bet a lot of physicists would have some learning to do before they could design a bridge. But being trained in biology would still be a giant head start if you wanted to become a doctor. I went to a small college with no official premed program, so most aspiring doctors majored in biology. --Allen (talk) 21:25, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

A physicist would have to get more training in the laws of physics as they apply to the field of engineering or his particular field of engineering before he could be successful as an engineer, or at any rate, if he didn't know enough about the laws of physics as they applied to engineering, he couldn't become an engineer, period. Even if he impressed someone with his credentials, he wouldn't last long at the job. There's nothing to stop a biologist from becoming a doctor, if he goes on to study the principles of biology as they apply to the human body (arguably a greater narrowing than that from physics to engineering, requiring greater specialization; remember, biology is the study of all that is alive, from bacteria to plants to ecosystems, and the correlation between "knowing how it works" and "knowing how to fix it" is much less in biology than in physics). Furthermore, because doctors deal literally with matters of human life and death, it is required in most places that they go to medical school, get a license, etc. Anyone who wants to become a doctor has to meet those requirements, regardless of prior training. A biologist would doubtless have an easier time than someone from an non-life sciences background in some aspects of medical training, but it's still necessary to get training in the field in order to go into the field. Diagnosis, administration of medication, surgery, psychiatry, and bedside manner are aspects of the medical field with little or no parallel in the field of biology as a whole, and many of them are crucial for any doctor to know. In short, medicine is a very demanding specialty that requires much knowledge that biologists simply don't possess - unless they go on to study medicine. 66.215.224.253 (talk) 21:27, 7 June 2008 (UTC)Aletheia—Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.215.224.253 (talk) 21:27, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Let's also not generalize all physics here. A theoretical physicist is going to have a lot less at hand knowledge than, say, a physicist who specializes in materials science, when it comes to going into engineering. String theory does not tell you much about how to build a bridge; even a fairly generalist physics education does not tell you much about the properties of materials, of specialized techniques, of technologies. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 19:10, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Synesthesia

Is there a type of Synesthesia involving smells? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.32.207.35 (talk) 23:13, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

This article mentions sound-odour synaesthesia. But it says that it's rare. Fribbler (talk) 23:50, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
I think its rarity can be explained in the context of the cross-activation hypothesis for the Neural basis of synesthesia, as the olfactory cortex in humans is relatively well isolated from other sensory cortex areas. --Dr Dima (talk) 06:26, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] June 8

[edit] Suppose that we discovered a large-ish asteroid on a collision course with the earth...

How close would it have to get to us before we could accurately calculate where the point of impact would be? --Kurt Shaped Box (talk) 01:46, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Don't shoot until you can see the whites of their eyes. Hmm.. perhaps the point at which any changes in its speed or direction are found to be due mostly to the Earth's gravitational pull. The acceleration would theoretically have to be constant, or at least known at all times.--Russoc4 (talk) 01:53, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Modelling orbits is mostly about having a large number of observations over a long time. Think of it this way. If an object is moving at a typical orbital speed of ~20 km/s, then a 1 m/s variation in that speed would lead to a change in the expected location of 150,000 km over 5 years, which would be a very noticable range of variation. If you have a long enough period of observations, you can be very precise about future orbital positions. For example 99942 Apophis, which will make a close approach in 2036, has it's predicted distance to Earth at that time nailed down to 3381 +/- 8 km (1-sigma). Dragons flight (talk) 02:44, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Hi. 1950 DA, for example, has a roughly 1-in-300 chance of colliding with Earth in the 2800's, and we've calculated that the Earth's Atlantic Ocean faces the asteroid on its near pass/possible collision date. We don't know its exact chances yet, but we have observed its rotation enough to know this. Hope this helps. Thanks. ~AH1(TCU) 16:49, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Looking into the past

moved from talk page

If when we look towards the center of the Universe, we are looking billions of years into the past how is it, the Earth traveled to the distance it is now from the center of the Universe before the light from billions of years ago?

Did the matter that made up the Earth and the rest of the planets materialize in place?

Or did we actually travel faster than the speed of light?

Please excuse grammar and spelling.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.89.59.10 (talk) 01:29, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Well we're obviously not anymore if we can see it. Not sure how that happened though. Probably we were quite close to those stars a looong time ago and space has been expanding at nearly the speed of light or something, so the light has been sloooowly catching up to us. So by the time it finally finishes its 1-inch trip by overtaking us, it's already billions of years old. I don't know, sounds wrong? --.froth. (talk) 03:32, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
There is no centre of the universe. When we say the universe is expanding, we don't mean it's all moving out from a centre, it's more like blowing up a balloon. The 2D rubber surface (ignore the fact that it's contained in 3D space, just think about the rubber) doesn't have a centre, each bit is stretching as you blow it up. If you draw some dots on it before you start you'll see those dots get further and further apart, but they never actually move, it's just the rubber inbetween them gets bigger. When all the matter was created shortly after the big bang, it filled the whole universe and has been spreading out as the universe expands ever since. This means bits of matter can be very far apart without having to have actually moved at all. --Tango (talk) 10:35, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

<----> Ok, even if there is not a center of the Universe, Which I’m not sure is true.

In order to look back in time and space to the Big Bang,

Would we have had to travel faster than the light in order to arrive here first in order to see it?

Is it possible the matter that makes us up arrived here before the light that was emitted from the Big Bang arrived.

could that be possible unless we actually traveled faster than that light, right?

I mean according to the rules; matter can not travel faster than light, so the light that was emitted then would have been at this point in time/space way before we arrived at this point in time/space right?

Please help me understand the logic.

Again please excuse grammar and spelling

<------>

See inflation (cosmology). Yes, the universe grew faster than the speed of light for a microscopic fraction of a second during the Big Bang. As a result, we are only now seeing light from matter we were next to previously (though at that time, none of the current matter had yet condensed). It is also worth noting that the cosmic microwave background, i.e. the "light of the big bang" actually was created ~3 minutes after the "bang", so that light comes from after we were seperated. Also see: Timeline of the Big Bang. Dragons flight (talk) 21:10, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
(ec) The ideas of expansion of space, seeing "old photons" that are only now arriving to us, etc. comes up fairly often on the Science Ref-Desk. Here's a recent discussion focussing on how things can be further away than conventional "object at speed-of-light" would suggest: Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Science/2008 March 26#Faster than light/Big Bang question. Not a direct answer to your question (which I don't fully understand), but something that may clarify some general/related ideas. DMacks (talk) 21:18, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Actually, the CMB was released about 400,000 years after the big bang. You were close. ;) --Tango (talk) 21:33, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Lunar Module Ascent Stage

A rocket launch on Earth is a jarring event even for a spectator. The sound and the fury of getting even a modest payload to Earth orbit is simply awesome. The scales involved seem overwhelming.

Why is it that a Lunar Module's Ascent Stage taking off for lunar orbit ( youtube link[46]) seems like such a walk in the park? It's not hundreds of feet tall, just 12. It only weighs as much as 5-10 cars. No ground crew required, no days sitting on a launch pad prepping. No drama whatsoever. Shouldn't the theatrics be 1/6th as much as they are on Earth? Sappysap (talk) 02:51, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, it was just a vehicle to get the astronauts up into orbit (a few hundred miles?), not all the way to the Moon, so they didn't need much life support equipment. It also didn't have to overcome our stronger gravity, plus there was no air resistance or weather to worry about. For all these reasons, it didn't have to be as humongous as the Saturn V. Besides, who says there wasn't a lot of prep work anyway? Clarityfiend (talk) 03:25, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
It's not strictly proportional because you also need more fuel to lift the additional fuel, and more fuel to lift that extra fuel, ad infinitum. So, the higher the force of gravity, the larger percentage of the rocket that must be fuel. A chemical fuel rocket would hit some limit where it could never even achieve orbit from a planet with gravity above a certain level. (I wonder what that point would be ?). StuRat (talk) 14:16, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Let's do some math to illustrate my point. If we say some type of fuel has enough energy so 10 lbs of fuel can lift 100 lbs of cargo into lunar orbit from the Moon, we would then need 60 lbs of fuel to lift that cargo into Earth orbit from the Earth, before we take into account the fuel needed to lift the fuel. Now, the 10 lbs of fuel would require 1 lb of fuel to lift, and that 1 lb would require 0.1 lb of fuel, for a total fuel weight of 11.1111... The 60 lbs of fuel would require 36 lbs to lift and that would require 21.6 lbs, etc., for a total fuel weight of 150 lbs. Note that the ratio between 150 lbs of fuel and 11.1111... lbs is 13.5:1, far more than the 6:1 ratio of gravity. This effect gets even worse when using fuels with less energy to mass.
So, we have the following reasons so far:
1) This "compounding effect" of fuel weight.
2) Only going to orbit versus escape velocity.
3) Air resistance.
4) The much lighter payload. StuRat (talk) 14:34, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Don't forget the other implications of having no air resistance on the Moon. The lander is not required to have an cylindral, aerodynamic shape, so it doesn't need to be supported prior to launch while on the platform. Tail fins and other stablization systems are also not needed. On Earth, a rocket's exterior must be at least strong enough to withstand the air pressing on it. I'm not sure whether the casing adds significant weight to the craft, but no such strong structure is required on the Moon. --Bowlhover (talk) 15:59, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Energy to orbit (neglecting air resistance) in terms of the central mass, M, radius of the object, R, and altitude to orbit, h, is approximately proportional to M {R+h \over R h}. The mass of the moon is 7×1022 kg, versus 6×1024 kg for the Earth. The radius of the Earth is 6370 km, versus 1740 km for the moon. And lastly you need ~180 km altitude to clear the Earth's atmosphere, versus only 20 km for the moon (to clear the mountains, though Apollo actually used 100 km).
Equating terms, you can see that for a given orbiter mass in order to get to orbit the moon you need only 1% as much energy as you do to orbit the Earth, mostly due to the Moon's greatly reduced mass. Since energy is basically proportional to fuel, you can do with far less fuel on the moon than on the Earth. And that's before considering air resistance, booster weight, and everything else one needs at Earth that you don't need at the moon. Dragons flight (talk) 17:17, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] help please

hello great brains!!! i am trying to prove reflection of electromagnetic waves from metallic surfaces using basic principle of physics.does any one knows that is the proof going to be unique or it has been already done.actually i am trying to provide a firm reason for reflection of electromagnetic waves,in opposition to hypothetical proof provided by hugens.kindly help me that to which university would entertain such proofs.such that it gets recognized.

Reveal.mystery (talk) 2nd year Mechancal Engineering student India. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Reveal.mystery (talk • contribs) 03:34, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry but I don't understand the question. What are the "basic principles of physics" you're starting from? Maxwell's equations? Quantum electrodynamics? String theory? In at least the first two cases it's already been done. Why do you want to do this? —Keenan Pepper 04:00, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
I think what Reveal.mystery really asks is, "why does Huygens–Fresnel principle hold for the electromagnetic waves, and what fundamental principles of modern physics does it follow from?". Well, as Keenan said, if Maxwell equations are basic enough then, yes, it follows from them almost trivially. Simply assume the incident perturbation in electromagnetic field to be a harmonic plane wave (see equation in article if unsure what it is), and solve either numerically or analytically, whichever you like best. Play with shapes of obstacles and their dielectric constant to get the feeling for how the waves interact with surfaces and edges; this is not always easy analytically, so I would recommend using MATLAB. Now, on the other hand, if you are asking where Maxwell equations are coming from, then things really become much more complicated. First and foremost, there is a chicken and egg relation between special relativity and classical electromagnetism. And I really suggest you look no further than that at least until you are well familiar with the latter two. Hope this helps. --Dr Dima (talk) 06:09, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

I have moved the following new question here as it appears to be a continuation of this question. SpinningSpark 12:47, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

many many thanks to active wikipedists for their support. let me explain what actually i tried for: considering the wave nature of em waves i considered the interaction of the magnetic component of the wave with the metallic surface.now further on by applying lenzs law i propose the generation of an opposite directioned current in the plate.the interaction of the orginal and the field generated by lenzs law finally proves my point.

please helpme so that i may further more proceed in this area.basically i require it to be recognized by some university professor or any journal.since the subject dosent pertains to my branch ,such recognition would help me in my resume for my gre(M tech) interview.

Reveal.mystery (talk) 2nd year,Mechanical Engineering student sam54in1@gmail.com india —Preceding unsigned comment added by Reveal.mystery (talk • contribs) 12:38, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Cancer screening

Does cancer screening refer only to the search for extant disease, and not individuals at risk from disease but that don't actually have it or can the term be used to encompass both? From my brief search it seems that the term is used to cover the search for existing disease only (even if in the early stages) so the ability to predict development of disease may not be inferred from the term. ----Seans Potato Business 11:26, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

You screen only for actual conditions, not for predispositions. If, for example, one tests a population for a gene that predisposes to cancer (say BRCA1), you're screening for the gene, not for cancer. - Nunh-huh 11:52, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
I think you're being too strict about the usage of "screening". In the US, pregnant women are routinely given prenatal screening for certain conditions of the fetus (such as Down's syndrome and spina bifidia). The screening detects elevated risks associated with certain conditions but does not give definitive diagnoses. In fact, the article on triple screen says:
The test is for screening, not for diagnosis,[4] and does not have nearly the same predictive power of amniocentesis or chorionic villus sampling.
--71.162.233.218 (talk) 13:46, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Weather forecast

I'm not happy with current forecasts. I'd also like:

1) The predicted time of the highs and lows, and better yet a graph of predicted temps throughout the day.

2) A humidity forecast in a form similar to that listed above.

3) A wind speed forecast similar to that listed above.

Does anybody know where I can get such data ? StuRat (talk) 12:36, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

It might help if you said where you are (ie which country). And also what you are currently looking at. SpinningSpark 13:28, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
I'm in the US (Detroit) and use an Internet site for ad-free weather: [[47]]. I also can get forecasts for the temps every 3 hours or so from digital TV station 4-2, but only for the current day. StuRat (talk) 13:49, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Have you looked at the NOAA site for your area[48] ? I didn't check if it meets all your spec but its a lot more than what you have already. Here's the link to their front page in case I got your local area wrong [49]. SpinningSpark 14:34, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
That works. I found their "tabular forecast" is what I want: [50]. Thanks ! StuRat (talk) 14:45, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Hi. I live in Canada, and I can find a way to get all three. Here, The Weather Network[51] gives us hourly forecasts. As for hourly humidity and wind forecasts, The Weather Network gives us that every quarter part of the day, but I can also get it at Cleardarksky, although the measurements are vague. Hope this helps. Thanks. ~AH1(TCU) 16:53, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Wing layout

Why do most planes have only two wings?

Why layouts with double or three wings on each aren't more common?

And what about having a set of short wings stapled - not broader as the plane - over each other until the plane gets enough drag to fly? GoingOnTracks (talk) 12:53, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

See Biplane#Advantages and drawbacks to biplane designs. Xn4 13:31, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
We don't seem to have anything explaining the unpopularity of tandem wing designs, though. Algebraist 13:32, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
The unpopularity of tandem wing might be explained by its increased stability, which surprisingly, is not always desirable. Certainly for fighter aircraft, maneuverability is king and stability and maneuverability are mutually exclusive. Also, if sufficient stability can be achieved by other means (high mounted wings, dihedral etc) why go to the expense of additional wings. Also some large commercial aircraft (eg Boeing 747) achieve distributed CL (the reason for tandem wings increased stability) by means of the lifting body effect. SpinningSpark 14:05, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Just one more point, the designer of the aircraft (Rutan Quickie) in the picture in the tandem wing article says he designed it that way so that it resembled the Stars Wars X wing starfighter. Probably not a lot of call for that outside of the kit plane market. SpinningSpark 14:17, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
One big factor seems to be the speed of aircraft. More wings means more lift but also more drag, both of which also increase with speed. Early planes went quite slowly, so needed all the lift they could get, and drag wasn't much of an issue. Current planes are much faster, so getting sufficient lift is possible from fewer wings, while keeping drag low is also more of an issue. StuRat (talk) 14:09, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Excessive numbers of wings were included in some very early plane designs like the Phillips Multiplane [52] but triplanes are gone now, biplanes rares. Some canards seem like second sets of wings (Beechcraft Starship). Rmhermen (talk) 18:12, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] How do astronauts commit suicide?

Do they have some sort of suicide pill? Or are they expected to "sink" with the "ship"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.6.118.85 (talk) 17:30, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

We are not a crystal ball - no astronaut has committed suicide in space yet. In fact, only three people have died while in space, the crew of Soyuz 11 due to a malfunctioning vent. (See also space accidents and incidents) While on Earth they have access to any suicide technique the rest of us do. Rmhermen (talk) 17:57, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
I think the original poster was asking about a situation where astronauts were stranded with no hope of rescue—would they be provided with means to commit suicide in lieu of 'waiting it out'? Obviously it hasn't happened yet, but it doesn't mean that no one has planned for it.
To reply to the question, as far as I can discern there is no record of NASA astronauts carrying suicide pills, nor is it likely that Soviet astronauts carried them. (Links to Q&A with shuttle crew, reference to Jim Lovell's book on the Apollo 13 mission.) Several astronauts and commentators note that there's no need to carry suicide pills on a space mission—venting the air from the capsule will do the job quite nicely, and loss of consciousness will occur in about fifteen seconds. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 18:09, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
The first person to perform a spacewalk, Leonov aboard Voskhod 2, secretly carried a suicide pill in case he had been unable to enter the spacecraft and had to be cut loose. --Bowlhover (talk) 18:50, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
But is venting the air painless? How quickly can it be done? I doubt there's a "vent the air" button on the control panel. Wouldn't that be equivalent to a self destruct button? What if your buddies don't want to die with you? I think the original poster may have gotten the idea of a suicide pill from the movie Contact based on the novel by Carl Sagan. In it, Jodie Foster's character is given a suicide pill before she goes into the machine to take her to make contact with aliens. She is told that the pill has been given out to astronauts ever since the space program began, but it was never made public. She was told that the pill can be useful if she's stuck somewhere with no way to get back home, or trapped. Faced with the possibility of a slow painful death, the pill would put her out of her misery quickly and painlessly. She was also told that the pill is for all the reasons that they "could not think of". ScienceApe (talk) 18:53, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
That's fiction of course (rather a long drawn out one as I recall). I'd be more interested to know just how Leonov intended to administer his pill during the speacewalk given that's he'd be wearing his spacesuit.--Shantavira|feed me 19:15, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Couldn't you just like take off your space helmet outside and suffocate?-- —Preceding unsigned comment added by Crystal eyes17 (talk • contribs) 20:59, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
I don't know about the Russian space program, but NASA spacesuits are designed in a way that the wearer can't possibly reach all the latches necessary to remove the helmet, and the assistance of a second astronaut is simply required to get out of it. Dragons flight (talk) 21:04, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Garbage into oil?

Was there an attempt to turn garbage or sewage into oil? ScienceApe (talk) 18:42, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Discover magazine says yes. The company responsible is Changing World Technologies. Clarityfiend (talk) 19:42, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] The worst case of food allergies and religious food laws

What are the worst known cases of food allergies combined with restrictive religious food laws? E.g., you are not allowed to eat certain foods, but you are allergic to most of the foods that you are allowed to eat. Furthermore, most of the non-allergic and legal foods are not available in the place that you live. -- Toytoy (talk) 19:03, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Rubber

Does all rubber contain latex? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.125.70.46 (talk) 20:01, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

In the area of rubber, latex does not indicate the contents of the rubber. It indicates that the rubber has not been vulcanized. -- kainaw™ 20:38, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Language & Grammar

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[edit] June 2

[edit] Plural vs Singular

I've been looking online, and most dictionaries have usage notes that state "none" requires a singular verb, as in None was qualified. This sounds odd to my ear. Are there any cases in which none should use a plural verb? Are there any other words that are colloquially used with a plural verb, but should be singular?
Also, media, as in mass media, is technically the plural of medium. Therefore, one would think it should be followed by a plural verb. However, our wiktionary article states that it should be followed by a plural verb in this sense; this is supported by encarta and the American Heritage dictionary, but they state that there are instances in which media can be followed by a plural verb, depending on the context. Merriam-Webster (the second definition — I can't link it for some reason) states that using media with a singular verb might incur criticism. So, what are your opinions?
While I'm here, I have a question about the singular they. I was taught that one should use "he" when referring to one person whose gender is not known. I often hear "they" being used, and find it incorrect. However, I've looked, and using "he" is attacked as sexist. I personally think using things such as s/he, he or she, xe etc. is poor form, and don't use it. Which is the most "correct" way to write this? Thanks. seresin ( ¡? ) 04:39, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Using singular verbs with "none" sounds find to me. To me, it's like using singular verbs with "no one", where both "none" and "no one" are not plural. I can't think of any cases where you would use a plural verb with "none" either. I might be wrong, so someone feel free to correct me. But for the second question, the grammatical way is to use "he" if the gender isn't known, and using "they" is incorrect but politically correct, the problem brought about by not having a gender-neutral term for he/she unlike in some other languages. I find myself using grammatically incorrect "they" when I'm trying to hide the gender of the subject, but that's because the alternative is saying stuff like "this person", etc. --Wirbelwindヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 04:50, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
None is a contraction of "not one", so it should be treated in the same way. A lot of people don't like singular they (I don't), but the OED has citations going back to the 18th century, so it is well established. See singular they.--Shantavira|feed me 06:51, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Please don't post answers when you don't know what you're talking about. None is not a contraction of "not one", and is either singular or plural. This is easily confirmed in the online Merriam-Webster, American Heritage, Infoplease, or Compact Oxford dictionaries, all of which can be searched simultaneously via www.onelook.com.
In practice "none" is often treated as a plural when you might expect there to be many of whatever it is that there are none of.
--Anonymous, 07:44 UTC, June 2, 2008.
Well I'm sorry but that is what I was taught, and the OED confirms that "none" is derived from not one (Old English ne = not + an = one). FWIW, I have been a professional editor for 25 years, so I do have some inkling what I'm talking about.--Shantavira|feed me 17:01, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
"Is derived from ne+an" is not the same as "is a contraction of not one". --Anon, 20:45 UTC, June 2 (copyedited later).
In particular, when the expression "none of …" is used, none is usually construed as plural when the object of of is plural ("None of them are going on the trip") and as singular when the object of of is singular ("None of the milk was spoiled"). When none is used alone, the number assigned to it varies, as Anonymous said, depending on what the writer or speaker has in mind. Deor (talk) 08:23, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
"I think the phrase none was qualified may seem strange to you because you are previously assuming that "none" signifies plurality, as in, why would you use this phrase if you weren't talking about two or more people/things? If you were talking about just one person/thing, you would probably say he/she/it was not qualified more often than none was qualified. Anyway, I too feel none was qualified sounds strange, but that's because (as I suggested) I have a previous bias which makes me assume "none" signifies plurality; chalk it up to language upbringing.--十八 09:26, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
As for gender-neutrality, I'm against it on principle. (Keep 'em separated, I say. Vive la difference, too.) "He" is the traditional gender-neutral pronoun and is still the usual word. There has grown up a taboo, a remarkably persistent one, around "singular they". It is indeed considered incorrect, but in reality it is not. It is a part of many dialects, mine included. There is an in-depth treatment of the subject of the "singular they" here. One amusing absurdity mentioned there is "'I believe it's strictly a matter between the patient and his doctor.' -- senator Hayakawa opines upon the subject of abortion." --Milkbreath (talk) 10:41, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Whether 'none' is a contraction of 'no one' or not is a complete irrelevancy. It tells you nothing at all about whether it is construed with a singular or plural verb. Language doesn't work that way, and people who believe that you can settle matters of linguistic usage by an appeal to historical development are out of touch with how language actually works. I too was taught that 'none' should take a singular verb, with the same rationalisation, and like most English speakers I use plural more often, but singular when there is a presumption that only one of the set might have done whatever it was. --ColinFine (talk) 23:05, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Unless you're talking about uncountable nouns such as milk, what's an example of a set that might have contained only one element, Colin? -- JackofOz (talk) 09:12, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
E.g.: None of the days he was absent at was a Friday. but None of the workers were absent on a Friday. 76.111.32.200 (talk) 14:07, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
That works for me. Nice example. Thanks. -- JackofOz (talk) 00:19, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Loser's folly

I was just commenting on a talk page when this phrase popped in my head and I used it, and I'm pretty sure I'm know what it means, but I am surprised how it appears to be used very little in common speech. However, even the LA Times used the phrase in the second sentence of this article. Is using the phrase "loser's folly" to describe a hopeless venture really that rare of a phrase, and does anyone know where it originates from?--十八 09:14, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

The phrase as used in the LA Times article seems related to the gambler's fallacy. (It's a fallacy even when you're experiencing a winning streak). There is also an article on illusion of control. ---Sluzzelin talk 09:56, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
You think you know what it means? I don't, and I don't think you do, either. In the sentence you cite, the gambling is described as such, but also the "master-planned excess of Summerlin" and "the cookie-cutter streets of Green Valley and Henderson". I don't think it means anything except loose writing and looser editing. Don't look to journalists for usage tips; they'll toss in a whole mule to give it kick and an anvil for iron. --Milkbreath (talk) 10:57, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Verkündung der Wehrfreiheit (Germany, 1935)

I've queried this and a related term (? "'Verkündung der Wehrge*ekes". ) on the Talk page for Treaty of Versailles. Since they're quite context-dependent, please see the details there. --Thanks, Deborahjay (talk) 12:54, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Resolved thanks to stalwart RefDesk editors Angr, Lisa4edit, and Lambiam. -- Deborahjay (talk) 11:12, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Linguistic content (possibly of interest here):

I think there must be another mistake in the second version. I can't think of any feminine or plural noun in German that ends in -ekes (and it would have to be a feminine or plural noun because of the definite article der in the genitive before it). Do you have a scan of the document? (If you can't upload it here for copyright reasons, let me know and I'll send you an e-mail so you can send it to me as an attachment.) —Angr 16:35, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
The second could be "des Wehrgesetzes" if its a scanned document. has a quote for 1935. [53]] There was however an earlier law [54] that might be viewed as violation. The term "Verkündung der Wehrfreiheit" only got 3 ghits (6 yahoos), so the actual law was called something else. --Lisa4edit (talk) 17:52, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
"Verkündung des Wehrgesetzes" itself only gets 2 ghits, but I suspect you're right that that's what it says. I can see how a Fraktur "tz" ligature would look like a "k". Take a look at Commons:Image:Deutsches Reichsgesetzblatt 1871 000 000.jpg; the title says "Reichs-Gesetzblatt" but someone unfamiliar with Fraktur could easily think it said "Reichs-Gefekblatt". —Angr 18:31, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Usage of word "aspect"

Quotes by Thomas Hardy (1840-1928) English writer: "Aspect are within us, and who seems most kingly is king."

I am trying to understand what Hardy is saying in this quote where he uses the word "aspect" as singular, yet treats it as plural.

Can anyone help me out here? Thank you SunnyErn (talk) 13:05, 2 June 2008 (UTC) SunnyErn

  • Is that just a misprint?
 A young man's exhortation

   Call off your eyes from care
 By some determined deftness; put forth joys
 Dear as excess without the core that cloys,
   And charm Life's lourings fair.

   Exalt and crown the hour
 That girdles us, and fill it with glee,
 Blind glee, excelling aught could ever be,
   Were heedfulness in power.

   Send up such touching strains
 That limitless recruits from Fancy's pack
 Shall rush upon your tongue, and tender back
   All that your soul contains.

   For what do we know best?
 That a fresh love-leaf crumpled soon will dry,
 And that men moment after moment die,
   Of all scope dispossest.

   If I have seen one thing
 It is the passing preciousness of dreams;
 That aspects are within us; and who seems
   Most kingly is the King.

--jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 14:14, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "mille e tre" in Leporello's catalogue aria (Don Giovanni)

In Leporello's catalogue song, he sings of the number of his master's conquests, giving actual totals to date. I once heard a discussion in which a speaker said the the figure 1003 ("Ma in Ispagna son gia mille e tre.") was not to be taken as a literal figure, but that it was an expression for "incalculable." The Wikipedia article entitled "Madamina, il catalogo è questo" brings to the attention an opera also concerning Don Giovanni (1787) by Giuseppe Gazzaniga. In this version, the servant Pasquariello sings: "Della Francia e della Spagna ve ne sono non so quante." This is Englished as "From France and from Spain there are more than I know." When Mozart's librettist wrote "mille e tre" was he expressing the same? LShecut2nd (talk) 19:05, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Sounds like the modern 'This device has a thousand and one uses', based of course on The Thousand and One Nights-- but here meant simply as a metaphor for 'very many'.

However, in the case of Leporello's claim, he so insistently repeats it that I believe we're meant to take it quite literally. This serves to build up the Don's mythic figure.

Besides, what's a mere thousand and three women bedded? Georges Simenon claimed twenty thousand. Ah, these sluggish Spaniards--how can they hope to compete with the hot-blooded Belgians? Rhinoracer (talk) 18:12, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Latvian question

Does anyone here speak Latvian? What does this headline I found in a Latvian newspaper mean?

Par garo brīvlaiku Elza saka - fooorši. Tiešām? JIP | Talk 19:40, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
I've been trying to find this all day! No luck. An idea would be to post the question on the Latvian wikipedia's help desk/reference desk (there would be many who speak at least basic English) but I can't tell if they have one! Fribbler (talk) 23:55, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
I did post it at the Latvian Wikipedia. I couldn't find a reference desk so I posted it on the main page's talk page. I already got a reply: it means Of the long holidays Elza says - coool. Really?. JIP | Talk 05:00, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
On the left in languages the link is Latviešu. Where you go from there, I don't know. Julia Rossi (talk) 03:59, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Have you asked any of these people? Confusing Manifestation(Say hi!) 04:51, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Catcher in the Rye

Moved to humanities desk -Elmer Clark (talk) 21:42, 2 June 2008 (UTC)


[edit] June 3

[edit] Orwell

The inflated style itself is a kind of euphemism. A mass of Latin words falls upon the facts like soft snow, blurring the outline and covering up all the details. The great enemy of clear language is insincerity. When there is a gap between one's real and one's declared aims, one turns as it were instinctively to long words and exhausted idioms, like a cuttlefish spurting out ink. In our age there is no such thing as "keeping out of politics." All issues are political issues, and politics itself is a mass of lies, evasions, folly, hatred, and schizophrenia. When the general atmosphere is bad, language must suffer. I should expect to find—this is a guess which I have not sufficient knowledge to verify—that the German, Russian and Italian languages have all deteriorated in the last ten or fifteen years, as a result of dictatorship.

Does anyone here have "sufficient knowledge to verify" this?--Goon Noot (talk) 06:28, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Just to be clear, you're asking whether anyone here can verify that German, Russian, and Italian deteriorated between 1930 and 1946 as a result of dictatorship? Personally, I have no idea. I think 15 years is a pretty short period of time to analyze from a historical linguistics perspective... and "deterioration" can be awfully subjective.
On the other hand, maybe you're asking about whether dictatorship has a stifling influence on language growth in general. That, I think, is a fascinating question, but I don't know the answer to that either. I wonder if there have been any studies on Korea, for instance, and the changes between the dialects spoken in North and South Korea over the last 60 years. Indeterminate (talk) 07:08, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
No one would have sufficient knowledge to verify this because it is not true: languages simply do not "suffer" from politics or individuals, they slowly evolve on their own path, as and when a large number of its speakers feel it is appropriate to change little aspects of their language. The idea that a language "suffers" or "impoverishes" is ludicrous, it evolves, that's it. Saying that the result of the evolution is an impoverishement or an enrichement is not objective. My view is that people claiming to have sufficient knowledge to prove Orwell's statement would instead have imcomplete knowledge that would lead them to the above wrong conclusion. --Lgriot (talk) 07:18, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
I suspect that the "language" being referred to above as "suffering" is not so much the language itself, but rather the culture of communication the language is used in. -- Captain Disdain (talk) 08:19, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
We have to remember the quote above is by the same person who believed an authoritarian dictatorship could actually change the way people think by imposing restrictions on language – in 1984, the ultimate goal of Newspeak was to make it impossible for people to even think of illicit things like freedom. Fortunately, in the real world, there's no evidence that would work, and examples like creolization and Nicaraguan Sign Language suggest that when children are presented with an impoverished language to learn, they don't grow up to be intellectually impoverished at all, but rather that they enrich the language they're learning so that it can accommodate their thoughts. —Angr 18:48, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
On the other hand, literature generally deteriorates heavily under a dictatorship. With free expression restricted, the production of prose, poetry, etc. quickly becomes derivative and soulless. There are exceptions, of course, but generally, the 90%-of-everything-is-crap Sturgeon Principle quickly becomes 99% of everything is crap. Steewi (talk) 02:53, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
I would agree that published literature may have been impoversihed, but I am pretty sure that behind closed doors, authors still enjoyed the same quality of expressiveness. even though their audience would be seriously reduced. --Lgriot (talk) 07:23, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Just one instance of this trend in Russian (and one which Orwell probably knew about) is the word likvidirovat, which means to settle affairs or debts. It gained the further meaning of 'kill' or 'eliminate' at about the time of the October Revolution, and it's even possible that Lenin himself was the first to use it in that sense. Xn4 00:47, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Hang on, Angr. Do you have evidence that Orwell believed that "an authoritarian dictatorship could actually change the way people think by imposing restrictions on lanaguage"? That was the plan in the book indeed, but you could say that the book itself illustrates the failure of this thesis: i.e. the need for more conventional forms of coercion. And just because an author puts a thesis in a work of fiction doesn't necessarily mean he believes or accepts it. --ColinFine (talk) 18:46, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] who and whom

can u plz explain the difference between 'who' and 'whom' in a precise manner? regrding that issue, who did u contact to? regrding that issue, whom did u contact to? which 1 is correct and why?Lovindhawan (talk) 08:38, 3 June 2008 (UTC)lovindhawan

Use whom rather than who exactly where you'd use him rather than he. Did you contact he? No, you contacted him; thus the question wants whom. (On another hand, some people find any use of whom unnatural, archaic, stilted; 1 wd have thot that any1 who rites like this, when not paying by the ltr, wd be among them.) —Tamfang (talk) 08:54, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Um, they're both wrong :) Actually, the 'to' in both phrases is grammatically incorrect and unnecessary. Removing these, the second one is correct, although using the first one is common in everyday life, precisely because many people like you don't know when to use who and whom. Kreachure (talk) 13:24, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
I'd go so far as to say that practically nobody knows when to use which, and that's why "whom" is moribund. I know, but half the time I have to think about it, and that's too much like work for just talking. It does have a little life in it, though, when it immediately follows "to"; it's actually hard to pronounce "to who did you give it". See our article Who (pronoun). --Milkbreath (talk) 13:45, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
For me it's a question of register. I always (attempt to) use "whom" correctly in writing (although I don't necessarily always use pied-piping in writing), but in speech I probably use it very rarely. —Angr 17:38, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Moribund? I don't know...when a preposition precedes the word, my experience is that everybody automatically use 'whom'.

"For whom is this letter?" "I asked him for whom the letter was."

Rhinoracer (talk) 18:16, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
I guess I meant moribund in general speech. Nobody around here would say "For whom is this letter?" but "Who is this letter for?", which also technically demands "whom" but never, ever gets it. Same goes for "I asked him for whom the letter was.", which I'm not sure is even possible, decaying within nanoseconds as it does into "I asked him who the letter was for.", which again goes begging for an "m". Even when "whom" is strictly idiomatic, as in your examples (the examples were not idiomatic for my dialect, but the use of "whom" within them was), it sticks out like a sore thumb. Q: Whom shall I say is calling? A: Meem. --Milkbreath (talk) 19:05, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
There are certain standard phrases ("To whom it may concern") and well-known quotes and titles "Do not send to ask for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for thee", and "For Whom the Bell Tolls", where the use of "who" is just wrong. But you can get away without "whom" in many cases that would have been been considered mandatory in bygone days. The people for whom these old grammar texts were designed are themselves approaching moribundity. -- JackofOz (talk) 00:14, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Parenthesis in quotations

When someone says something that would be written in brackets, how can you prove it that the person is actually saying that and not addressing the audience? E. g. in this sentence: "The one that has MP2 (you know what I mean) on its front cover?". Interactive Fiction Expert/Talk to me 11:28, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Before we get started, I'd like to suggest we call these () "parentheses". I think of "brackets" as the general word for things of that kind, encompassing (), [], {}, etc. I'm not sure what you're asking, but the example you have provided, "The one that has MP2 (you know what I mean) on its front cover?", says to me that the speaker has said every word between the quotation marks but has said "you know what I mean" sotto voce. If you want a remark to stand outside the text as a direct comment from the writer to the reader, it should go inside square brackets: "The one that has MP2 [you know what I mean] on its front cover?". I think, though, that it's a bit awkward like that, asking punctuation to do so much; the quotation marks should be left alone to do their work without the square brackets muscling in and temporarily overriding their prerogative. ----Milkbreath (talk) 12:22, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Another way to write the same thing which might make it clearer that it's still the speaker talking would be with dashes: "The one that has MP2 – you know what I mean – on its front cover?". --Sean 13:02, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
That's all well and good, but that's not exactly what I mean. I meant if the person was saying that to another person in the story. Interactive Fiction Expert/Talk to me 13:19, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
In that case you can do it a million ways: "The one that has MP2," he said, pausing to murmur a conspiratorial "you know what I mean" to Tebra, "on its front cover." Don't use any kind of bracket. Punctuation has to be invisible in fiction. --Milkbreath (talk) 13:38, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
I think I understand your question (but only after re-reading it a bunch of times). Your question being: how can you know if a part in parenthesis within quotation marks is meant to be heard by the one being talked to, or only the reader. Having a parenthesis within quotation marks, as in your example, most usually means that the person talking is saying that part in parenthesis to whomever the person is talking to (like the rest of the speech), not only to the reader. The difference would be that the person has said that part in a lower voice, or with a different tone to make it less important than the rest, or even in such a way that the person being talked to was barely able to hear it. Kreachure (talk) 13:40, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Also, unless the speaker is quoting his/her own words, he/she wouldn't say "you know what I mean" but "you know what he/she means/they mean". (If you know what I mean.)  :) -- JackofOz (talk) 00:05, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] German translation

An advertisement for a children's playground reads "Damit auch dein Geburtstag der Hit wird." I think this can roughly be translated as "With us, your birthday will be a hit". Is this reasonable? And if so, a few follow-up questions:

  • What is the function of the auch?
  • Why "der Hit" rather than "ein Hit"?
  • With nouns such as "Hit" which have been borrowed from English, how is their gender determined?

Many thanks, --Richardrj talk email 17:38, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

That's a very rough translation; there's nothing in the German that directly corresponds to "with us". A more literal translation (for the purposes of discussing it linguistically) is "So that your birthday too will be a hit." The function of auch is to suggest that other people's birthdays have been hits in the past, and now yours can be one too. I don't know if I can explain why it's der Hit rather than ein Hit, but think of similar expressions in English like "That's the bomb!", "That's the shit!" and "You the man!" Many nouns borrowed from English take the gender of native German synonyms, so in this case it's probably "der Hit" because of "der Schlag". Other examples are "das Callgirl", neuter because of "das Mädchen"; "die E-Mail", feminine because of "die Post"; "die Band" (in the meaning "rock band" or the like), feminine because of "die Gruppe/Truppe". There are also exceptions, though, like "das Team", neuter in spite of "die Mannschaft". English nouns ending in -ing are always neuter in German (e.g. "das Meeting"), because they're felt to be equivalent to substantivized infinitives ("das Treffen"), even though -ing is etymologically cognate with the feminine suffix -ung. —Angr 18:35, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Thanks Angr, as always. I was confused by damit; I thought it could be translated as "with us". Clearly I was wrong. Of course I know that auch means "too" or "also", but for some reason I didn't connect it with dein Geburtstag, I assumed that it ran something like "also, your birthday will be a hit" and I couldn't see what the "also" might be referring back to. Thanks again. --Richardrj talk email 19:05, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Damit can mean "with it" but never "with us". The way to tell apart the "with it" meaning from the "so that" meaning is to see where the verb is. If I were selling a new product and wanted to say "With it, your birthday too will be a hit" I'd have to say Damit wird auch dein Geburtstag der Hit with the verb in the second position of the sentence. But when damit means "so that", it introduces a dependent clause, meaning the verb has to go to the end of the sentence, and that's what we have in your example: Damit auch dein Geburtstag der Hit wird. —Angr 19:51, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Funny anecdote: There is a German Beamter in a dark basement office somewhere in Berlin (Bonn), sitting at his desk looking at lists of new items musing "die Computer", "das Computer", "der Computer". He then issues an official statement in triplicate. :-)--76.111.32.200 (talk) 22:25, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

It's that simple: "You are THE Man!" -> "Du bist DER Hit!", "The Party 's gonna be THE Hit!"->"Die Party wird DER Hit!", but you can also say "Die Party wird EIN Hit!" - just depends on you, how you meant to say it... in german, BOTH ways can be used in many different other situations.

The German "auch" simply means "also" or "too", while in german "also" means the english "so".

Examples: German->English "Also, was machen wir heute, Heinrich?"->"So, what do we gonna do today, Henrik?" "Ich bin auch krank"->"I'm also sick (of this or that)", or "I'm sick, too (like with a headache)."

The word "Hit" in german is always "male" or how you call it in english, you can't say "Die Hit" or "Das Hit".

Hope it helps a bit, - "Auf geht's, Schnitzel essen!" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.177.189.93 (talk) 17:18, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "Eitherly"

From page 116 of Iain Banks' novel 'Matter'(Orbit Books):

[...]Oramen often felt overwhelmed in complicated social environments and had at such times (so that they all cancelled each other out), or none at all.Eitherly, the result was that he would just stand there, or sit there [...] (bold letters mine)

Eitherly?

I don't recall encountering this absolute adverbial before, and yet-- I like it. Prettier and more concise than "In either case" or "Either way". Is this a neologism?

Banks is a Scot...is this word common in Scottish English?

Whatever the verdict, I believe I will adopt this word! Rhinoracer (talk) 18:25, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

A full-text search of the OED shows nothing for "eitherly". Too bad, I like it, though I don't remember having seen it before. --Milkbreath (talk) 20:49, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
220 ghits is better than I get for some dictionary terms. It'd be interesting to see if it comes from someone mistranslating some foreign language, it's an old term or local to some group. Meriam Webster didn't know it either (-ly:-). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.111.32.200 (talk) 22:34, 3 June 2008 (UTC) grrr I' going to get that bot --76.111.32.200 (talk) 22:36, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Google books gave 27 examples, some dating back quite a bit, none of them a dictionary definition, the first example even implying its non-existence (as if we said "bothly", "eitherly", "neitherly"). From what I could tell, the sense is usually that of either, not of either way as in Rhinoracer's example, and the usage wasn't particularly Scottish. Eitherly, see for yourself. ---Sluzzelin talk 03:30, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
If we all pledge to use the word in our Wikipedia writings, then the ghits will increase until they reach such a level, the dictionaries will be forced to acknowledge it. :) Gwinva (talk) 03:39, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

You are right,Gwinva (talk), and so shall I proceed.

Jorge Luis Borges, in an interview, lamented the lack of invention of new words. (He was not speaking of nonce-words such as, say, Obama-ness.) An example he cited from a British author was "everness"-- which strikes me as a useful and beautiful new word.

I'm rather conservative in my language, but it were foolish to frown on every neologism. Rhinoracer (talk) 16:53, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

It might work, or it might not. The OED adds words every year. Eitherly, it would be worth a try. Fribbler (talk) 23:03, 4 June 2008 (UTC)


[edit] June 4

[edit] Poss ess

There's a trend towards using apostrophe "s" in plural words on websites and in personal writing (example: workshop's, weekend's, car's). Looks odd, but does it mean something more than a typo? Given it might be getting past spellcheck, it's a kind of style-creep, so does this mean it's becoming acceptable? Just curious, Julia Rossi (talk) 00:57, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Your write too bee consurned. Its juzt plane lazinuss. Peeple knead to lurn propr grammer. --Nricardo (talk) 01:34, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
There's a name for tho'se: Greengrocer's apostrophe --tcsetattr (talk / contribs) 02:42, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Yup, what Nricardo wrote. Oddly enough, it takes more work to put in the incorrect apostrophe than it does to leave it out, so I don't know if "lazy" would be the correct word...silly grammar-challenged people. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 02:44, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
No, such misuse of the apostrophe is not acceptable. Astronaut (talk) 02:46, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
My "Yup" was more of an agreement with Nricardo. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 04:10, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Ye's! that's it: the creeping anarchi'stic Greengrocers' apostrophe's it i's, and a's Nricardo and Nihonjoe, no-ones bothering to check because they don't even know -- thank's all Julia Rossi (talk) 03:48, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
You might enjoy this cartoon. I also liked the exclamation I read somewhere "an apostrophe doesn't mean 'look out! here comes an s!!'". --LarryMac | Talk 14:48, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Confusing the issue is that it was standard until quite recently to use apostrophes to pluralize things not considered as normal words. The example "VCR's" in the cartoon would be correct by that standard. Now that style is mostly confined to plurals of single characters (e.g. there are two capital N's in this sentence) or other cases where confusion might result (we bought two model 3's, one 3r, one 3s, and two 3t's). But some people still adhere to the older style. See Apostrophe#Use in forming certain plurals, although I don't think that section gives a complete picture. --Anonymous, 20:39 UTC, June 4, 2008.
It's also an example of hypercorrection. Indeterminate (talk) 22:32, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] ORIGIONAL SCRIPTURES OF INDIA

WHERE THE ORIGIONAL COPIES OF THE SCRIPTURES OF INDIAN ORIGIN (VEDAS,etc)ARE PLACED ? 59.95.192.222 (talk) 04:44, 4 June 2008 (UTC)MAYUR

I'm not sure what you mean by "original copies", which is surely a contradiction. I suggest you read our article on the Vedas which will tell you that "The Vedas are arguably the oldest sacred texts that are still used. Most Indologists agree that an oral tradition existed long before a literary tradition gradually sets in from about the 2nd century BCE. Due to the ephemeral nature of the manuscript material (birch bark or palm leaves), surviving manuscripts rarely surpass an age of a few hundred years. The oldest surviving manuscripts of the Rigveda are dated to the 11th century CE.[citation needed]. The Benares Sanskrit University has a manuscript of the mid-14th century....."--Shantavira|feed me 06:14, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Please interpret this sentence

The following is a quote from Water of Life (a treatise on urine therapy) by John W. Armstrong.

If this treatment is carried out, the old will disappear, in the case of otherwise healthy individuals in about twelve hours or less. Doubtless the reader would say “but this is quite contrary to the old adage” ‘feed a cold and starve a fever’. Yet was that the original adage? I have heard it said that such is merely a perversion of the original saying which is “if you feed a cold you will have to starve a fever”.

What does the author mean by what he claims to be the original version of the adage? In other words, what does “if you feed a cold you will have to starve a fever” mean? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Elixira (talk • contribs) 14:23, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

It means that feeding a cold may make it worse, i.e. it may escalate into a fever. --Richardrj talk email 14:25, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Or more specifically -- the original saying means that if you have a cold, you should eat, whereas if you have a fever, you should fast. Therefore, the "original" version means that if you eat when you have a cold, you will get a fever. (I'm clarifying this because the meaning of the phrase "feeding a cold" may not be obvious to the original poster. Also, as a point if interest, this New Scientist article suggest that the idea of eating when you have a cold and fasting when you have a fever may have some basis in reality.) -- Captain Disdain (talk) 20:14, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
As Captain Disdain rightly guessed I never guessed the eating involved. By 'feeding a cold' I understood, merely allowing a cold to take its course (without trying remedies). Still, I am not clear if the author really had food in mind. Any more light? Elixira (talk) 04:13, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
See also this article from the New Scientist.  --Lambiam 08:34, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Meaning

What does "debris pipe" mean? Thanks.68.148.164.166 (talk) 20:59, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Can you provide a context? —Angr 21:25, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
It could have a couple meanings I can think of:
  • pipe that has become debris
  • a pipe used to hold or transport debris.

Depending on context, there may be other meanings. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 01:13, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Searching Google images for "debris pipe" suggests that it's a sediment trap, but I'm not conifident enough to create a redirect.--Shantavira|feed me 06:06, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
A rubbish or rubble chute? Both red links, but WP references in: rubbish chute and rubble chute. See also (googled) [55], [56]. Gwinva (talk) 07:02, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Anything like a "grease trap"? Intercepts solids and grease before it enters oops, they enter the sewer sysem. Julia Rossi (talk) 08:47, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Do you mean the stewer sysem, Julia? --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 22:02, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
hank you Cookaoo, for a loan, 'ere seems oo be a shorage of t's bu' no shorage of T's laely. ; ) Julia Rossi (talk) 07:46, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Skuta

What exactly is what the Slovenes call "skuta" (pusti sveži sir)? Is there an English equivalent for that thing? I can't figure out what kind of dairy product it is. Húsönd 23:49, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

As far as I can see from the Slovene Wikipedia, this is a mountain!? Can you throw us a link as to what dairy product is involved? Fribbler (talk) 00:24, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Actually, the disambiguation page for "Skuta" at the Slovenian Wikipedia [57] provides both the mountain and a red link for the main (?) meaning of that word. Húsönd 00:57, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Aye, I seen that too. Just wonder what the main meaning is! The OP mentioned "sir", which rings bells in my head as being the word for cheese in several slavic languages (often as ser) but I still need more info. Fribbler (talk) 01:02, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
"Sir" is the only of those words I know the meaning. I have no clue about the others, but "pusti sveži sir" is written next to "skuta" on this can of skuta that I bought in the market today (believing that "skuta" was just a brand of normal cream cheese). Húsönd 01:18, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Ah, I'd reckon the name of a well-known mountain was appended to create a notion of purity. Fribbler (talk) 01:23, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
In Croatian skuta means quark (curd cheese).[58] I bet it is the same in Slovenian.  --Lambiam 08:27, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Heh heh. James Joyce knew a thing or two about words, and I wonder if he wasn't aware of this substance when he supposedly coined "quark" in FW. -- JackofOz (talk) 20:46, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] June 5

[edit] Section8

To the honorable Michelle R. Bloomberg, I am a resident of the Bronx, Ny.I recived a vocher from Nyc housing of October of 2007. The experation date for the vocher was Apirl,2008, in the process of having this vocher i then found housing before my experation date but ther was a change in my budget. Therefor the rental/transfer office then informed me that my applications would have to go back to applications for a budget resessment due to a 17% budget change therefore i am now without a vocher, and now listed to be a catagory 9 when i have already recived a vocher.My vocher # is 0593591. I am now trying to find out why my vocher was took away from me and given to someone else, they now have my lease from the apartment that i found,along with other doucments. So, my question is why do i not have a section8 vocher because of the lact of business admintration. Now i am trying to fight for what i feel is righfully mine...Where do i go from here?? I need assistance to find out what happpen from the month of october 'till now. Knowing that the apartment was found in the month of December,2007.That is my question. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.119.85.222 (talk) 00:19, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Who is Michelle R. Bloomberg? Adam Bishop (talk) 00:48, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Michael Bloomberg's wife? Nope, his wife is Susan. Not sure. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 01:16, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
It is amazing what people think we can do: the language reference desk can solve any problem! Need a girlfriend? Ask the LRD! Need a flat? Ask the LRD! Need to settle a dispute with an administration? Ask the LRD! :-) --Lgriot (talk) 06:50, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
We are an encyclopedia, not New York City Hall. It is not very likely that Mr. Bloomberg, or someone who acts on his behalf, will see your posting. Here is a link to a contact webpage for the New York City Government.  --Lambiam 08:16, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
(edit conflict) I suspect, based on your question, that you found one of our over two million articles, and thought that we were directly affiliated in some way with that subject. Please note that you are at Wikipedia, the online free encyclopedia that anyone can edit, and this page is "Language Reference Desk" of the English Wikipedia. We have no inside track on the subject of your question. You can, however, search our vast catalogue of articles by typing a subject into the search field on the left hand side of your screen.
However, you might have more luck visiting New York City Housing Authority (Official site) or calling 3-1-1 toll free. If you really think Mayor Michael Bloomberg is the best person to solve your issue, he can be contacted here. Astronaut (talk) 08:43, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
3-1-1 is definitely the way to go here. - Nunh-huh 11:08, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Translation of text on an image

Hello. Can someone please translate the text on the image at this page. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:GriechTheater2.PNG. It is stated that the terms are in Greek language and Latin letters. Not sure what the means, but hopefully you'll understand, lol. I would like the terms translated into English please. Many Thanks, POKEMON RULES (talk) 03:33, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

It means they've been transliterated from the Greek alphabet into the Latin alphabet. Since they're all rather specific technical terms, they probably don't have different English translations. Rather, the Greek words (transliterated into the Latin alphabet) would be used in English. —Angr 06:06, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Wikipedia has articles and definitions for some of the terms: diazomata, skene, proskenion, pinakes, parodoi. This site gives definitions for the other words. DAVID ŠENEK 10:24, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for your help, POKEMON RULES (talk) 01:05, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Words ending in Z

I have noticed a recurrence of words ending in Z on the net recently, in deliberate misspellings such as "haz". Iz thiz some kind of internet meme, and if so where did it originate from? --Richardrj talk email 13:59, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

I think it's of feline origin. DAVID ŠENEK 14:06, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Wow, is there anything at all that Wikipedia doesn't have an article on? Many thankz. --Richardrj talk email 14:26, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Well... hiphop culture does it too (e.g. Boyz n the Hood), and that's older than the lolcats. —Angr 16:03, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Heck, I ain't no damn lolcat, and I've around longer than most of those boyz. (You cannot imagine what it took for me to write that last "word". What sacrifices one makes for humanity.) -- JackofOz (talk) 20:39, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Jeez haz been roun' longr dan dat. (No, no Richardrj, "thanx", aight?) Julia Rossi (talk) 08:35, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Yeah, but I was definitely thinking of the lolcats thing, which is a recent internet phenomenon and distinct from boyz, jeez etc. Thanks all. --Richardrj talk email 09:14, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Auxiliary verbs in English

There seems to be auxiliary verbs in Finnish (and Swedish too) that I can't translate to English directly. These include:

  • jaksaa (sv. orka): have the energy to
  • ehtiä (sv. hinna): have the time to
  • viitsiä: can be bothered to

Also, I am confused by the English auxiliary verb "may", because it can mean either "be allowed to" or "be possible to". The first meaning is saada in Finnish and få in Swedish. The second meaning is voida in Finnish and kunna in Swedish.

Finnish also has two separate verbs for "can":

  • osata: know how to do
  • voida: be possible to

Can some explain to me if these can be translated to English more succintly than what I have written here? JIP | Talk 17:14, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Norwegian has (roughly the same meanings I think): orke, rekke, gidde. Never really thought of the fact that some of these don't have English translation, though it might have struck me. The first is the hardest, your translation is OK though at least in Norwegian it's mostly used negatively (jeg orker ikke å... --> I don't have the energy to...). Manage in English could replace the second one, I think, though then the time dimension would have to be implied from context. Bother could in some cases replace the third. But someone else could probably answer this better than me... All in all, you seem to have a good grasp of these things! Jørgen (talk) 19:36, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Seeing from your userpage that you're Finnish, I apologize... I thought you were an interested English-speaker. I'll still let my answer stand in case someone finds it interesting. Jørgen (talk) 19:40, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "Five years of fighting"

I heard a report on the radio this morning about Darfur, in which the correspondent started a sentence with "Five years of fighting have led to..." I would have said "Five years of fighting has led to ..." But as I got to thinking about it, it's possible that we're both right. Opinions? Corvus cornixtalk 17:49, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

"Has" is right. Don't listen to all those others who say the other thing. It's not the same thing as "five dogs have peed on my azalea", where "has" would be impossible. --Milkbreath (talk) 18:04, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Well you can carefully say 'has' if you like, Milkbreath, but I will continue to use either depending on whether I have the years or the fighting as salient in my mind when I say it. --ColinFine (talk) 18:57, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Milkbreath, I was taught years ago that the verb should agree in number with the word (or words) before the "of". Waz I taught wrong, or have the rules changed?--Eriastrum (talk) 19:00, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
You were taught wrong, and there are no rules. (Actually, I don't think I'm getting what you were taught.) Grammatically or logically speaking, it can go either way. "Years" is the subject, "years" is plural, therefore the conjugation is "have". "Five years" is a block of time whose overall effect has culminated in whatever, so "five years" is to be construed as singular, making it "has". (I don't understand Mr. Fine. The years considered individually are not what is meant.) The trouble is, when we actually go to write it, we have to pick one, and we should use the one that makes the sentence make sense, the right one. --Milkbreath (talk) 19:11, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
I think in this case it makes more sense to choose "have"; otherwise the listener might be confused as to whether the subject of the sentence was "years" or "fighting". When people aren't paying attention to what they're saying, it's a common error to simply conjugate a verb based on the word directly before the verb, rather than the actual subject of the phrase. Indeterminate (talk) 19:23, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
I don't think we should consider the sensibilities of a listener who starts out that confused. We should write for sane people of at least average intelligence. It would not make sense if "fighting" was the subject. The listener is perfectly capable of understanding that it was the five fighting years that led to the deplorable state of affairs we're faced with today, I guess. --Milkbreath (talk) 19:58, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Was it the five years, or the fighting, that "led to..." (whatever it was that 'it' led to)? It was the fighting, which is the subject. The simple sentence "fighting _has_ led to..." was expanded with a modifier about how much fighting to get "Five years of fighting _has_ led to..." Okay, I'll shut up and listen, now. -SandyJax (talk) 21:03, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
This also seems like a case where national/regional dialects come into play, much as how American and British English differ in the treatment of sports teams -- Americans tend towards the plural (The Colts have won 5 NFL championships) vs the British singular (The only major honour that Manchester United F.C. has never won is the UEFA Cup). As such, there is not necessarily a universally correct answer. — Lomn 19:30, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
We Americans would indeed say that the Colts have won it, "colts" being plural, but Indianapolis has, where Manchester have. --Milkbreath (talk) 19:58, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Show of hands: who would write "Five years are a long time"? --Milkbreath (talk) 20:17, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Ah, but that's a different case, mate. (this is where the ec happened) Logically, I'd be inclined to agree with my esteemed lactohalic colleague about his first response. But logic is not the thing. It all depends on how the speaker is conceptualising the situation. Maybe from a johnny-come-lately journalist's frame of reference, the 5 years of fighting is a single entity. Darfur used to be a nice place, then this "thing" happened, and now it's hell on earth. Thus "5 years of fighting has led ...". But from a local's perspective, it would not be one "thing" but a long series of separate, individually ghastly events, which have culminated in whatever. And if they say "five years of fighting ..." they may have all those separate bloody events in mind, not some disconnected thought about the time period. So I can't support the view that it's always wrong to say "have". In other words, what Colin said. -- JackofOz (talk) 20:33, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Can't agree, dude, I mean mate. Whatever a local might think, that's not what the sentence means. It doesn't make sense to arbitrarily divide the time up into years. If it had been one-and-a-half years, would we say "Eighteen months of fighting have led to...."? It is the span of time, not some arbitrary units, that is, not are, the subject of the sentence. Isn't English a glorious mess? --Milkbreath (talk) 21:31, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Not sure we're on quite the same wavelength. To some speakers, "five years of fighting have led to" is shorthand for "many horrible events that took place over a five-year period have led to". Just as "the group went their separate ways" is shorthand for "the members of the group went their separate ways". I can see where you're coming from, though. -- JackofOz (talk) 22:32, 5 June 2008 (UTC)


See, my thinking is that "five years of fighting" is a single, fixed thing. That's why "has" seems appropriate. To me, "have" would only work if you're thinking more about the years as individual entities, each with its own impact on the situation. Corvus cornixtalk 20:36, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Poem analysis...?

Hello everyone. Would it be okay (and helpful to me :) if I put up a poem here for analysis? It's not homework or anything, I just want to know what it's about ^^. (If this is absolutely not the place for such a thing, please tell me where I can go to get some help!) Thanks in advance, Kreachure (talk) 20:48, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

You'd probably get better responses at the Humanities Desk. --Milkbreath (talk) 21:22, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Really? Well okay... if you ask me, there's a little bit of ambiguity between the two desks regarding this subject (not that such a thing has been asked for in either according to Google), but thanks anyway. Kreachure (talk) 21:34, 5 June 2008 (UTC) PS. I don't have to remove the question from here in order to ask at the other desk, right??

I just answered you, I'm not the guy to see about this. That said, if I were you, I'd go ahead and post away and let the devil take the hindmost, whatever that means. It's happened before that someone has slapped a bit of poetry up and asked for analysis. Watch the copyright thing is all. --Milkbreath (talk) 22:48, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Copyright is okay for purposes of study or teaching, no? Julia Rossi (talk) 08:51, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
I don't know. My eyes start to swim around like a couple of goldfish about three sentences in whenever I try to read up on the matter. Common sense tells me, though, that whatever your intention, to post a piece on the internet for anyone to read or copy violates copyright. To quote one stanza in an academic work is fair use, I guess, or even to include the entire poem in a critique of that poem, but on paper. But I am not a lawyer. --Milkbreath (talk) 10:01, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
You likely need a pair of legal-eyes, then. Julia Rossi (talk) 07:49, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Examples of languages with pre-noun and post-noun placement of adjectives

Hello, I'm looking for a very short list of a few examples of languages that place the noun after the adjective (e.g. casa verde), and a few that place it before (e.g. green house). If you can find a link to a list I'd really appreciate it, but just listing a few examples would work just as well. If possible, I'm also especially interested in Russian. I tried searching through the archives but couldn't find much, and our articles surprisingly don't seem to cover this. Thanks in advance for your efforts! --YbborTalk 21:34, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm not having much luck finding a list either. Many languages allow them in either position, and many have exceptions to the usual placement (e.g. French, where adjectives normally follow the noun but certain adjectives can precede the noun under certain circumstances). For European languages, I'd say adjectives typically follow the noun in Romance and Celtic languages and precede the noun in Germanic languages. I don't know enough about Slavic languages to generalize, but I notice that Russian for Red Square is Красная площадь (red square), not Площадь красная (square red). —Angr 21:58, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
The absence of the present tense of the verb "to be" in modern Russian means that, context-free, Площадь красная would be interpreted as "The square is red". It's not that you can never put the adjective after the noun, and literature is full of counter-examples, but generally speaking it goes before just as it does in English. -- JackofOz (talk) 22:21, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
I thought there might be a list at Head directionality parameter, but there isn't. It mentions Japanese as a language that is pretty strictly head-final (as with German, quite long phrases can occur as modifiers in a noun phrase, preceding the head noun). Hebrew is an example of noun-adjective, and is the converse of JackOfOz's observation about Russian, in that there is no copula and 'adjective noun' would tend to be a sentence, not a phrase. --ColinFine (talk) 23:06, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
In Spanish, adjetives preceding nouns are frequently of an epithetic nature (i.e. of an appositive, rather than delimiting, character). Adjetives following nouns generally act as delimiters; since adjetives delimit more frequently than express an intrinsic property of something, it comes as no surprise that noun-adjective is a more common order than the other way round. But there are many subtleties that make the matter elusive. For instance, superlatives mayor, máximo, etc. usually precede nouns; and un pobre hombre has a very different meaning from un hombre pobre (pobre meaning doomed or pathetic in the first example and impoverished in the second one). Pallida  Mors 18:35, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] June 6

[edit] Plural of Destruction

Is the following usage of the word "destructions" grammatically correct?

"While they are very similar, only the latter is able to cause epic, city-scale destructions."

Should "destructions" be singular instead? Applefungus (talk) 00:47, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

It's a little strange, but I'd let it stand. It's better than "depredations", it's concise, and we know what it means. The dictionaries I looked at were mute about whether "destruction" can be a count noun. --Milkbreath (talk) 01:30, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Most dictionaries don't distinguish mass nouns from count nouns. I'd say that "destruction" in normal use is always a mass noun, and this dictionary entry agrees (it uses U = uncountable = mass noun). So you want the singular "destruction" or else a completely different construct like "the epic destruction of cities". --Anonymous, 01:54 UTC, June 6, 2008.
I'm gonna have to agree with singular. The meaning of the sentence is the same if you put destruction rather than destructions (so using the latter isn't going to affect it other than making it seem 'uglier'). Kreachure (talk) 02:31, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
What Kreachure said. --Richardrj talk email 07:43, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
I'd substitute city-wide. Clarityfiend (talk) 18:35, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Even wide-scale destruction. Julia Rossi (talk) 07:51, 7 June 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Latin Check

I'm doing a translation for one of my friends, but my Latin is somewhat impoverished by my never having taken a class. Can I have some corrections?

"Mercuri ter Maxime, adjutame, Alipes! Dona tutamen caducei sancti tui a socio vehendi."

"O Hermes Trismegistos, Aid me Wing-Footed one! Offer the protection of your sacred caduceus to a fellow traveller."

You can be merciless if I've completely bunged it up. :) Steewi (talk) 03:27, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Additional: I also wouldn't mind it being made a more elegant translation, if it's not difficult. Steewi (talk) 03:28, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Which way are you translating it? From English to Latin? (I thought the other way around at first.) If E-L, then "adjuta me" is two words. The end right now says "the protection of your sacred caduceus to be carried by a friend", so I think you want simply "...sancti tui conviatori". Adam Bishop (talk) 04:35, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Ok, now that I've had a chance to put some more thought into it: "O Mercurii ter Maxime, adjuta me, Alipes! Dona caduceum sanctum arma mihi conviatori" The "O" more definitely indicates the vocative, and -ius names take -ii in the vocative. You don't need a possessive "tuum" - it's more natural to use it in English, but unnecessary in Latin, since it's obviously not your caduceus! "Tutamen" does mean "protection" but it's not the most usual word, and it seems odd to me to use it with a genitive. I used "arma", which is weapons but also abstract protection, with another accusative in apposition, "grant [your] sacred caduceus [as] protection to me, a fellow traveller." Adam Bishop (talk) 07:57, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Thanks Adam, that was great help. I was indeed translating E->L, and your corrections make sense. I'll pass the better translation onto my friend. Steewi (talk) 11:50, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Feminine endings in English

Here's a couple that I've been meaning to ask for a long while:

1.I've noticed the forms "or" and "rix" in Latin-origin terms. I'm wondering what the English/Anglisc parallel is. For words ending in "er", is there a disused female form with "rine"? (I've noticed in German the pair Kaiser and Kaiserin).

2.What would be the plural for sisters in the old forms to match "brethren"? (Sestren?) Retarius | Talk 06:20, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

The wife of a viceroy is a vicereine. That's probably from French, though. Only example I can think of right now. -- JackofOz (talk) 06:23, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
(1). AFAIK the feminine ending corresponding to German -in is present in Modern English only in vixen, which is etymologically identical to German Füchsin. (2). It's just "sisters". —Angr 06:31, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
For Retarius, the archaic plural form of sisters is "sisteren"; used inclusively, brethren means members of the same kind or group, as well as kin which does for both mostly. Julia Rossi (talk) 07:07, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
The English suffix -ess comes from Latin -ix, through French. For example "actor" is directly from Latin, and "actress" evolved from the feminine form "actrix". The suffix -er is the Germanic cognate of Latin -or, I think. There was also an -ina suffix in Latin, although maybe it only appears in "regina", the feminine form of "rex". "Rex" and "regina" turned into "roi" and "reine" in French, hence Jack's example of "vicereine", which is really two words "vice reine", so it does not really have an "-ine" ending in the way you meant. Adam Bishop (talk) 07:39, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Thanks Jack, Angr, Julia and Adam. I gather the modern feminine form would be "ess" then, as in deprecated words like actress, waitress, etc. Retarius | Talk 08:20, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
You're welcome. (Sequenced the Q & A after getting lost).  : ) Julia Rossi (talk) 08:29, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
When it suits, "actress" is not entirely deprecated. -- JackofOz (talk) 12:53, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Interesting little fact by Angr. I didn't know that vixen was the only surviving English word with the feminine suffix "-en". Apparently another lost feminine suffix is -stere surviving in the word spinster (originally female spinner [59] ). ---Sluzzelin talk 15:24, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Well, I did modify my claim with "AFAIK" (= as far as I know). There may be other words that retain the feminine suffix -en, but I can't think of any. As for -ster, I believe webster and seamster also originally had the same suffix. The former remained in use only as a surname, and the latter got re-marked with -ess to become seamstress. —Angr 17:11, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
One can only assume that 'webstress' nowadays would mean a female with a good knowledge of HTML.--ChokinBako (talk) 17:53, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Or maybe a female dictionary? :P Pallida  Mors 18:41, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
A feminist dick-tionary? An oxy moroness? --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 21:49, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Far more likely to be perceived as "web stress", something we can all relate to. -- JackofOz (talk) 22:30, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Agree. With minimal html, I'd settle for webtrix. Julia Rossi (talk) 07:54, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] The individual pasta unit

Is there a correct singular form of the word "pasta", and are there singular forms for specific pasta terms like "spaghetti", "ravioli", and so on? (Besides the English "noodle".) I realize that "pasta" and types of pasta are usually if not always mass nouns, but I'm wondering if there's a more precise single word for "piece of pasta" or "strand of spaghetti". 69.111.189.55 (talk) 15:19, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

La pasta is already singular in Italian. The plural form is le paste (It's used in Italian, when you're talking about different kinds of pasta). I don't know whether paste can be used as a plural in English though, I think it's an uncountable noun. Lo spaghetto (the little string) and il raviolo are acceptable singulars (again in Italian, I don't know about English) when you're talking about one piece, just like a corn flake. (There's a spaghetto hanging from your moustache. I don't know, it sounds a bit contrived and hyper-correct to me. What do English speakers think?). ---Sluzzelin talk 15:32, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
As an English speaker (British variety), I would never use 'spaghetto', 'raviolo', and so on, except perhaps facetiously. It always amuses me that the French doubly-pluralise these names, talking about 'les spaghettis' etc. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 16:35, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
In the U.S., signs and menus advertising "paninis" are extremely common. -- Coneslayer (talk) 19:33, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
"Blinis" and "pirozhkis" are other examples. They're supposed to be: 1 blin/pirozhok; 2 or more blini/pirozhki. -- JackofOz (talk) 22:26, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
I personally occasionally use singular forms of Italian words that are normally used only in their plural form in English, because I enjoy that sort of thing, but I think that it probably does sound contrived and hyper-correct. I think that the prevailing way to express the idea would be "piece of ...", for example, "there is a piece of spaghetti stuck to the pot" rather than "a spaghetto". I have also heard English speakers use the the plural form in the singular, which grates on my ears but is done often enough to be almost "normal". For example, "Would you like a biscotti?" or "There is one tortellini left." Marco polo (talk) 16:35, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Yes, English has a precise, individual word for "piece of pasta" or "strand of spaghetti". That word is noodle. —Angr 16:58, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Ah, but it is dialectal. If you used the word 'noodle' to refer to something pasta-y 'round here, people would look at you very strangely. 'Noodle' is reserved for those thin chinese things, also found in Pot Noodle. You'd have to refer to 'a piece of spaghetti' to be understood. 79.74.56.70 (talk) 05:59, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Just a further comment regarding pasta which can mean dough, pasta, but also pastry in Italian. I think one of the reasons "le paste" sounds alright and is often used in Italian is that, in addition to types, it can also be used for different dishes of pasta, or for several individual "pastries", i.e. pieces of pastry (le paste danesi = "Danish pastries"/"Danishes(?)"). Italian too is normally familiar with the concept of uncountable nouns, and "i latti" ("the milks") for different types of milk sounds wrong in Italian too. Or maybe paste are just too important to be uncountable in Italian. ---Sluzzelin talk 17:21, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
English speakers may not use spaghetto. But we eat SpaghettiOs. - EronTalk 20:12, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Which brings us to the question of why 'Alphabet Spaghetti' is called 'spaghetti' when it technically isn't spaghetti...--ChokinBako (talk) 20:33, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Probably because it was invented back in the 50s (or maybe earlier) when a lot of people didn't distinguish different types of pasta. It was all just "spaghetti". Or maybe more accurately, the only type of pasta generally purchased by (and often available to) the stereotypical (non-Italian) housewife-mother was actual spaghetti, so anything that came along that was made of the same stuff was referred to by the same name. The marketers knew this, and they didn't want to alienate their potential market by calling it "Alphabet <whatever the correct term is>". By the time the housewives became more educated in the varieties of pasta, it was too late to change the name because "alphabet spaghetti" had entered the cultural hall of fame -- JackofOz (talk) 22:26, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
I'd love to see versions of 'Alphabet Spaghetti' in different scripts. I wonder what an Arabic version would look like, and would they have beginning, middle and end versions for each letter, where appropriate? Then a kanji version would be interesting. A morse code version would be a bit boring, though. :)--ChokinBako (talk) 15:46, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] what does "they" refer

An entry in Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary reads as following:

weal: a sore red mark on sb's skin where they have been hit

I would like to know to what does the word 'they' belong to (to soar red mark or somebody's skin?)

AND

Is it correct to use 'they' in the above sentence grammatically?Kasiraoj (talk) 15:55, 6 June 2008 (UTC)


We have an article on the singular they, which is what you're looking at. In the sentence from the dictionary, sb's stands for somebody's, that is the person who has been hit. As that person's gender is not mentioned, some consider none of he, she or it appropriate for the pronoun refering to that person. So, the pronoun they is frequently used in English to refer to one person of unspecified gender. Some do not like this usage, reserving they for plural, but it is undeniably widespread and generally accepted as a useful convention. Alternatives would be to use he or she, (s)he and so forth. However they is employed, it always takes the plural verb form (they have been hit, not they has been hit). — Gareth Hughes (talk) 16:29, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
(ec) The antecedent of the pronoun "they" in "a sore red mark on sb's skin where they have been hit" is "somebody". You have noticed that "they" is plural, and "somebody" is singular. This usage is sometimes called "singular they". Singular they is not used in formal writing, but people say it all the time, and it has been used throughout history by good writers. Singular they is considered informal today. --Milkbreath (talk) 16:34, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Actually, it's becoming more and more common in formal writing, in my experience, as the traditional list of "things you must not write" becomes shorter and shorter. It's a meaningful construction, and is often a more convenient and "plain English" approach than any of the alternatives. Some may argue it doesn't make for good formal writing, but that's another issue. -- JackofOz (talk) 22:11, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] walk enclosure

The English translation for Item 144 in the List of Kangxi radicals is walk enclosure. What does that phrase mean? I can't make any sense of it. --08-15 (talk) 15:55, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

It sounds like an enclosed walk way, like a colonnade or a cloister. — Gareth Hughes (talk) 16:32, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Walk is the meaning of the letter. And the radical is used like a bracket. That's why it's enclosure. Take a good look at the letters. Oda Mari (talk) 16:54, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
I'm not sure that answer will be entirely clear to someone unfamiliar with the way Chinese characters work, so I'm trying again. The meaning of the character is just "walk". It's called an "enclosure" because other characters are derived from it by adding strokes in between its left half and its right half. For example, the character 衎 has a character shaped like a Ŧ inserted into the middle of 行. —Angr 17:07, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Thanks. --08-15 (talk) 17:23, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Donacor

Anyone know what "donacor" means, and in which language... Portugese maybe? It's mentioned in George Carlin: Again! as a dirty word he considered adding to his list, but I've never heard it before and neither has Urbandictionary. 87.112.34.18 (talk) 16:57, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Carny lingo spells it Donniker: "A rest room or toilet. Derived from 'dunnekin,' in common use among lower-class Britons in the 1700s meaning 'outhouse.' Probably derived from 'dung' and "-kin", a suffix referring to a small container or private room (many euphemisms for 'bathroom' refer to it as a 'closet' or 'the small room'). In Australian slang today, an outhouse is a "dunny"." (Another less likely etymology is "down knickers")---Sluzzelin talk 19:58, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Russian questions

Note: I moved this section down from to June 6 from June 2 because the discussion was still active and it was getting archived by a bot. —Lowellian (reply) 23:02, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

I am learning about Russian pronunciation and transliteration solely from Wikipedia articles, and I have a whole bunch of questions. Let's start off with this one: Why is "Елена" commonly transliterated "Yelena"? It seems to me self-contradictory: if "е" is "ye", then shouldn't it be "Yelyena" instead? —Lowellian (reply) 22:01, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

A (quite simplified) answer to this question is that the letter "е" in this name translates to two different sounds—the first one is iotated and the second one is not.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 23:07, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
The first e represents /je/ (a semi-vowel followed by a vowel), which you can transliterate <ye>. The second e represents /je/ — that is, the single vowel /e/ preceded by a iotated palatalized (soft) consonant, in this case /lj/. What's really going on here is that the second e is encoding information about both the vowel and the consonant that comes before it. Most transliteration systems indicate iotation with an apostrophe (Елена could be Yel'ena), but since it's a name an apostrophe would be cumbersome. Strad (talk) 23:56, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Thanks. Could you explain why the existence of the soft sign is necessary at all? Because it seems to me, couldn't you just always replace, after a consonant, a soft sign with the iotated form of the vowel and get the same effect? Is there any difference in pronunciation between "Ельэна", "Елена", and "Ельена"? —Lowellian (reply) 00:49, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Ельэна and Елена are theoretically equivalent (/jeljena/), but the combination ьэ does not occur — ь + a non-iotating vowel (а, э, ы, о, у) becomes the corresponding iotating vowel (я, е, и, ё, ю). Ельена would be /jeljjena/, with both a soft л and the sequence /je/. Strad (talk) 02:50, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
In case that last sentence is ambiguous: the sequence лье /ljje/ does occur. —Tamfang (talk) 09:02, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Yeah, I mean it to mean that those sequences do occur, as with пью "I drink", but that there is no such word or name as Ельена. Strad (talk) 16:19, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
I'm still confused. You're saying:
1. Ельэна would be /jeljena/ (except that the combination "ьэ" doesn't exist)
2. Елена is /jeljena/
3. Ельена is /jeljjena/
In the case of #3, "е" is itself iotated (/je/). But in the case of #2, "е" is instead iotating the previous consonant rather than iotating itself (/lje/). What's going on? —Lowellian (reply) 21:08, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
A Russian consonant cannot be iotated. "j" in "lj" indicates softness, and "j" in "je" indicates iotation. Does that help any?—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 21:53, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Sorry, I used the wrong terminology, though my question still stands; let me rephrase: according to the pronunciations given by User:StradivariusTV, in the case of #3, "e" is itself iotated (/ljje/), but in the case of #2, "e" is instead softening the previous consonant rather than iotating itself (/lje/). Why does "e" serve a different function in these two cases? —Lowellian (reply) 22:47, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
The letter "е" is never iotated when it follows a consonant; it simply softens the consonant (if that consonant can be softened, that is). Iotation, however, occurs, when "е" follows a vowel or a soft/hard sign, as well as at the beginning of words. Why that is the way it is, I don't know (I just speak the language), but it plays a very important role in distinguishing some words in speech (cf. "песо", peso and "пьеса", stageplay).—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 13:45, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Does this same rule apply to just "е", or does it apply to all the iotated vowels? —Lowellian (reply) 20:36, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Sorry, should have mentioned it. It applies to all iotated vowels.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 21:00, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Also, am I understanding correctly that the soft sign in Russian never occurs before a non-iotated vowel? What about the hard sign—can it ever occur before a non-iotated vowel? —Lowellian (reply) 21:08, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
The soft sign does occur before non-iotating vowels, but that only happens in words borrowed (or transliterated into Russian) from other languages (can't even think of an example). Also, the soft sign occurs in Russian words before non-iotating "и" (this is especially common in proper names, e.g., деревня Авдотьино, "the village of Avdot'ino", but also is common when forming the plural form of some words, e.g., воробьи), "sparrows"). As for the hard sign, if there are cases where it occurs before non-iotating vowels, they are most certainly not common at all (and would tend to show up in words, or, more likely, names, of non-Russian origin). Again, can't think of an example off the top of my head, which only proves the point (I'm a native speaker). All in all, the hard sign is not used in Russian all that much, so a learner like you should probably memorize those few common words which use it (съезд, разъезд, подъезд) and forget about it till (much) later in your learning process.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 21:30, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
I don't get what the hard sign does. Using IPA, wouldn't "сезд" and "съезд" both be pronounced /sjezd/? —Lowellian (reply) 22:51, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
It serves as a signal that the vowel following it is supposed to be iotated (and that the consonant preceding it should stay hard). Soft sign serves basically the same purpose, except that it softens the consonant it follows. And no, "сезд" (if that were a real word) and "съезд" are not pronounced identically—the former would be /sʲezd/ (soft "с", uniotated "е"), and the latter—/sjezd/ (hard "с", iotated "е").—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 13:51, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Another use of the soft sign is on final consonants. Before the spelling reform of ~1918, every final consonant was followed by either a hard sign or a soft sign; after 1918, final hard signs were dropped. — Come to think of it, I'm not sure of that: some consonants (including Ш) are always hard, and some (including Ч) are always soft, so maybe they were not marked. —Tamfang (talk) 09:02, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Yeah, they were. Like you said, every final consonant was followed by either a soft or a hard sign ("ч" was followed by "ъ", by the way, despite always being soft—e.g. "плечъ", genitive of "shoulders").—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 14:32, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Is the following statement correct?: "All consonants are hard unless they come before a soft sign or soft vowel." —Lowellian (reply) 21:08, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
No (although for the most part this is true). Consonants "ж", "ц", and "ш" are always hard (even when followed by a soft sign) and "ч" and "щ" are always soft.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 21:36, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
If "ж", "ц", and "ш" are always hard even when followed by a soft sign, what does it mean if they are followed by a soft sign? (Or is it the case that those three consonants are never followed by a soft sign?) Also, in the YouTube Russian tutorial video [60], the guy in it who is teaching Russian at the time 7:00-7:25 says instead that the three consonants that are always hard are "г", "к", and "х" — is he just wrong then? —Lowellian (reply) 22:59, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
If they are followed by a soft sign, that is probably just a remnant from some older pronunciation or a spelling convention (but again, I'm no expert on such intricacies). What I can tell for sure is that it has no effect on pronunciation whatsoever; you just need to remember that such words are spelled with a soft sign, is all. As for the youtube video, I can't take a look at it now (as my employer blocks youtube), but if they indeed are saying that "г", "к", and "х" are always hard, then they are terribly wrong. There are plenty of words where these consonants are soft; here are just a few examples: "Геннадий" (Gennady, Russian male name), "кино" (cinema), "химия" (chemistry).—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 13:57, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
In answer to the above question about г х к, they are soft when preceding и or е (or a г/х/к that precedes such a vowel as in мягкий). The fellow in the Youtube video probably said they're never soft because the soft pronunciations are not considered to be phonemic like those of other consonants. — Ƶ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 05:22, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
(Boldfaced because no one has responded to this; I will de-boldface it once someone does.)
The table in the article Russian alphabet gives, in the "IPA" column, both hard and soft pronunciations for most consonants, including "к", but not "г" or "х". So something is wrong there and the inconsistency between "к" and "г"/"х" should be fixed. —Lowellian (reply) 20:28, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Above, User:StradivariusTV wrote, "Most transliteration systems indicate iotation with an apostrophe (Елена could be Yel'ena), but since it's a name an apostrophe would be cumbersome." What I don't understand is this: by the same logic that writes the interior "е" as "e" rather than "ye" so that we get "Yelena" rather than "Yelyena", then shouldn't "Пётр" be transliterated as "Potr"? But I've never seen such a transliteration; it always gets transliterated as "Pyotr" instead. Why? —Lowellian (reply) 21:08, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
I don't believe there is a logical reason for such appoach; it's just one of the things you need to accept :) Note, however, that "Пётр" is also commonly transliterated as "Petr", but that has nothing to do with pronunciation whatsoever.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 21:46, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
And it's a bad transliteration. It's misleading. There's this eternal debate about whether there even is such a letter as ё. Those on the NO side of the argument still have to accept that e is sometimes pronounced "e/ye" and sometimes "o/yo", so in the cases where it's pronounced "o/yo", it should be transliterated "o/yo". We all came to accept names such as Khrushchev and Gorbachev being pronounced "-ov/off"; but wouldn't it have been so much simpler to just spell them as "Khrushchoff" and "Gorbachoff"? We even see transliterations such as "Gorbachёv", which is meaningless since there's no ё in English. -- JackofOz (talk) 23:19, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Another question: on the article Yer, under the heading "Modern Russian: Hard sign", the article gives the example:

  • съёмка (s'yomka) "filming"

But according to the "Transliteration table" in the Romanization of Russian article, ъ is transliterated, in all seven transliteration systems given in that table, as double prime ʺ , not single prime ʹ , which is instead used for the soft sign in all seven transliteration systems. So why is the transliteration in the "s'yomka" example above given as single prime rather than double prime when it is for the hard sign? —Lowellian (reply) 01:02, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Someone's got to break it to you: Wikipedia contains errors, and likely always will. —Tamfang (talk) 08:58, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Actually, it is not in so much an error as an informal simplification. Using a double prime to transliterate a hard sign is technically correct, but can be perceived as overly pedantic in common use. Of course, an encyclopedic article (such as yer mentioned above) should be overly pedantic, so I have made a correction.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 14:32, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Well, nothing should be overly pedantic, but sometimes simple pedantry has its place. -- JackofOz (talk) 00:16, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Are the following three statements correct?

  1. The eleven vowels are а, е, ё, и, й, о, у, ы, э, ю, and я.
  2. е, ё, й, ю, and я are the iotated forms of, respectively, э, о, ы, у, and а.
  3. и is also a hard vowel but has no iotated form.

—Lowellian (reply) 21:13, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

[You might want to move this thread back to /Language]
  1. "Й" is not a vowel, it is a semivowel. The rest of the list is correct.
  2. "Й" is not a iotated form of "ы". The letter "ы" does not have a iotated form in Russian. The rest of the list is correct.
  3. Not sure what you mean by "hard vowel"—if you mean that the consonant followed by an "и" remains hard, then the statement is incorrect. The letter "и" always softens the consonants (those which can be softened, that is). It does not have a iotated form in Russian.
Hope this helps.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 21:34, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Okay, I moved this back to /Langauge as suggested, though I think this discussion should be over soon; most of my questions have been answered. :)
Anyway, oops, silly me, I mistyped and accidentally switched й and и in statements #2 and #3 above. Okay, new revised versions of the statements, fixing that and trying to incorporate the corrections that you noted:
  1. The ten vowels are а, е, ё, и, о, у, ы, э, ю, and я.
  2. е, ё, и, ю, and я are the iotated forms of, respectively, э, о, ы, у, and а.
  3. й is a semivowel. It is not itself iotated, and it does not have an iotated form.
This is correct, now, right? The article I (Cyrillic) states "Although in isolation [и] is not preceded by the /j/ semivowel like other "soft" vowels [...] in Russian it is considered the soft counterpart to ы".
—Lowellian (reply) 23:08, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Looks correct to me. — Ƶ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 20:52, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
Strictly speaking, и is not a iotated form, and ы does not have a iotated form.  --Lambiam 11:36, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

What about the boldfaced comment above about the IPA in the article "Russian alphabet"? I boldfaced the comment because it's the only comment to which no one has responded, and I'm afraid it was overlooked because this is such a long thread/section. I will de-boldface that comment once someone responds to it. —Lowellian (reply) 19:14, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] June 7

[edit] Vowel in "hören"

Is the ö in "hören" pronounced /œ/ or /ø/? 76.195.7.166 (talk) 02:50, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Sorry I don't do IPA but it's like the "ur" in turf. Depending on local pronunciation the "e" is mostly silent, particularly in Northern Germany. --70.91.165.182 (talk) 02:57, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
The pronunciation of "turf" may vary by accent, but if ö is pronounced like how I pronounce the "u" in turf, then it'd be /ɜ/. Kal (talk) 04:49, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
(after edit conflict) I hear the vowel in hören as /œ/, and that in 'turf' as /ɜː/.  --Lambiam 04:52, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
According to Duden, hören has long /øː/. —Angr 08:55, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Looking for a word.

It's a word that I know exists I ran across it once clicking on the Random article link. I've tried various search patterns and reverse dictionary's, but no luck.

The best definition that I can give of this is: It's a word that describes a person that thinks that they are totally, without question, correct and yet they are completely wrong. [Special:Contributions/24.253.245.8|24.253.245.8]] (talk) 08:16, 7 June 2008 (UTC) Anthony

I tried a reverse dictionary through onelook.com and came up with some possible ideas. (www.onelook.com is my favorite online dictionary because it lists a few defs with usage examples but also links to other dictionary's definitions, which is excellent for really obscure or uncommon technical words)(note: blatant copypasting of defs present) 71.77.4.75 (talk) 22:50, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Deluded - having a having belief in something which is really untrue; misguided. To delude oneself is to to fool yourself into believing something is true because you want it to be true, when it is actually not true. Duped is somewhat similar in definition
You could also check the following
  • Specious: appearing to be true but really false. The claim that the ocean is blue because it reflects the sky is specious, the reality is that is actually slightly blue, not colorless.|
  • Sophistic: (similar def to specious, but less commonly used) clever-sounding but flawed: clever-sounding and plausible but based on shallow or dishonest thinking or flawed logic. A sophist is someone tho is sophistic.
  • Ostensible - intended for display, open to view; being such in appearance, plausible rather than demonstrably true or real. "His ostensible purpose was charity, his real goal popularity"
  • Hypocrisy (or hypocrite when referring to a hypocritical person): The claim, pretense, or false representation of holding beliefs, feelings, or virtues that one does not actually possess. A hypocrite is a person who puts on a false appearance of virtue or religion, or person who acts in contradiction to his or her stated beliefs or feelings. Ex- practice what you preach or you will be a hypocrite.
Q: is George Costanza a hypocrite, or meta-delusional? "Jerry, just remember, it's not a lie if you believe it." A conman might meet the definition of believing what they do is correct while it's completely wrong, but then we're getting into examples of what you mean. Julia Rossi (talk) 00:03, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
A: George Constanza? Probably both (that comes easy for a neurotic person). :) But as for the original question, I think delusion is the only adequate term that has been mentioned. All others are simply intentional deceptions used to fool others, not self-deceptions. Kreachure (talk) 01:02, 8 June 2008 (UTC) PS.
Beware of oncoming joke: Bush-like. Clarityfiend (talk) 01:15, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] German word oder "Es handelt sich hier um.."

Hi, I'm revising some phrases for an upcoming German exam and one of them is "Es handelt sich hier um", and a phrase I made with it was (the rather simplistic) "Es handelt sich hier um wo unsere Zukunft liegt." Is the word order here right? My word order is generally pretty awful.. 79.72.233.136 (talk) 10:12, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

The word order is okay, but it sounds weird to me because "es handelt sich um" is usually followed by a noun or noun phrase, and in your sentence it's followed by a subordinate clause. "Es handelt sich hier um unsere Zukunft" sounds more natural to me, though I'm not a native speaker. —Angr 11:49, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
It occurs to me that if you do want to use a subordinate clause as the object, you have to change "um" to "darum" and add a comma after it: "Es handelt sich hier darum, wo unsere Zukunft liegt" might be better. —Angr 11:52, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
user:Angr is entirely correct. The clause following the phrase "Es handelt sich hier um" must not commence with the "wo". Both of her alternatives "Es handelt sich hier um unsere Zukunft" and "Es handelt sich hier darum, wo unsere Zukunft liegt" are perfectly acceptable German.
Basically, the construct is: "Es handelt sich hier um" + <object>, where object, as stated, should be a noun or noun group in the accusative.
If you want to use a question as a subclause, you may select the phrase "Die Frage ist hier..." or "Es fragt sich..." --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 15:33, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Improving accent

What is the name of a professional who helps you improve your accent? Are there exercises for it? How can we improve our diction (in our native language and foreign language).GoingOnTracks (talk) 13:02, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

'Elocution lessons' is the name of the lessons you would take. I am not sure of what the actual instructor is called.--ChokinBako (talk) 13:21, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
'Elocutionist' is one possibility. --Wirbelwindヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 14:00, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
According to this, you are right.--ChokinBako (talk) 17:19, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
Voice coach, dialect coach, voice training, dialect training? Actors use these. It's good to have trainer because just listening doesn't tell you how to compose your mouth or know which part of the tonge or throat is used to make a sound that is authentic. Trivia moment here, but apparently Australians say "much" with the back of the tongue slightly raised so that it borders on "match". Julia Rossi (talk) 23:45, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Language in a can?

The last image is a Russian-made canned "language". Did they feed the cosmonauts words? -- Toytoy (talk) 15:10, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Doesn't 'Язык' also mean 'tongue', as in the body part? My dictionary seems to think it does. --ChokinBako (talk) 15:27, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
It means both the tongue of the mouth and tongue as in language. Lots of languages have the same word for both. —Angr 15:38, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
Don't worry, we all make mistakes, especially when it's in a foreign tongue.--ChokinBako (talk) 15:40, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
They are quite delectable. Unless, of course, you don´t want to eat what already has been in somebody else`s mouth. Mind you, some people eat eggs... --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 20:59, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm sure you've eaten a fur burger once or twice in your life. What's wrong with eggs? :)--ChokinBako (talk) 22:32, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Do I olfactorily detect a red herring hidden in your message or are you choking, Bako, having poked your nose into exotic hirsute flora of Down Under regions? --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 23:23, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] The origin of the term RIP when used to describe a computer generated printout

In government offices it is common to reference a computer printout or report as a RIP. No one seems to know how this term came to be used or what the origin of the term is. Any help? Charmstr (talk) 16:35, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Just a guess, but "Report In Print"?--ChokinBako (talk) 17:16, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
Another guess: printouts used to come on perforated paper that one had to physically tear, or rip, apart. -- JackofOz (talk) 23:20, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
'Really Important Paper'?--ChokinBako (talk) 00:38, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
I think it means "Raster Image Processor" (http://whatis.techtarget.com/definition/0,,sid9_gci214294,00.html) 71.77.4.75 (talk) 01:52, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Referring to words

Is there a difference between the terms grade and stage with respect to cancer classification? vs. Is there a difference between the terms 'grade' and 'stage' with respect to cancer classification?. Perhaps the latter is more clear, but can either one be said to conform the rules of the English language better than the other? ----Seans Potato Business 17:19, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

This is a crosspost from the Science RefDesk. It's been answered there.--ChokinBako (talk) 18:06, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
No it isn't. The question arose in my head while I asked the question on the Science Reference desk, but if you look closely, the question asked here is quite distinct. ----Seans Potato Business 18:33, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
I see. Well, as far as punctuation is concerned, the latter would be better, as you would need the inverted commas.--ChokinBako (talk) 21:11, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
'The rules of the English language', insofar as they exist, do not pronounce on the matter, though particular style guides may. But to quote from Use-mention distinction, "In written language, mentioned words or phrases often appear between quotation marks ("Chicago" contains three vowels) or in italics (When I refer to honey, I mean the sweet stuff that bees make), and some authorities insist that mentioned words or phrases must always be made visually distinct in this manner. Used words or phrases (much more common than mentioned ones) do not bear any typographic distinction." --ColinFine (talk) 22:14, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Full stop before/after quotation mark

Let's say I wanted to use quotation marks to emphasise the last three words "of this sentence". Did I put the full stop in the right place? I've come across both many times. Is it a British/American issue? Zain Ebrahim (talk) 21:52, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it is. British usage is to put a full stop (period) inside quotes only if it logically belongs there, i.e. if it's part of the quote. American usage is to put the tiniest punctuation marks (periods and commas) inside quotation marks regardless of whether they logically belong there, though more substantial punctuation marks (colons, semicolons, exclamation points, and question marks) go outside the quotation marks if they don't belong to the quote. —Angr 22:26, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
See also Quotation mark#punctuation.--Shantavira|feed me 06:39, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Thanks. Zain Ebrahim (talk) 17:42, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Chinese character 枚

The dictionaries Ive looked at give the meaning of this character as "stalk of shrub, trunk of tree" but I have also been told that it is a measure word for a noun. Is this true? Can different nouns have the same measure word? --212.120.247.132 (talk) 22:47, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Assuming it is Japanese, I have heard that there are different words used to count different types of objects. I think it is similar to English expressions like a "handfull" of raisins, or a "dash" of pepper, "sheets" of paper. Using this totally awesome japanese translation site (http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/wwwjdic.html) I came up with the defintion:
  • 枚 【まい】 (ctr) counter for flat objects (e.g. sheets of paper)
and additional expressions using that character to count cloth, bills (as in money), petals, flakes, paper; so it seems the answer is yes to the second question. 71.77.4.75 (talk) 23:01, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
Sorry I forgot Chinese and Japanese, along with other languages, shared the same characters. I meant the chinese character. --212.120.247.132 (talk) 23:05, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

The answer to your first question is yes. Your second question was 'can different nouns have the same measure word?' The answer is yes, whether it be Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Vietnamese, Malaysian, or whatever. After all, if each noun had its own individual measure word, it would make the language extremely difficult even for native speakers. That is why they are used to count objects that have some sort of similarity, like, in this instance, flat objects.--ChokinBako (talk) 00:36, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Is there a word for this: a noun for the place where a child has been raised vs. born?

I am looking for a word sort of like birthplace which refers to the place where a person has been born, but I am seeking a noun which describes where a person was raised. "Hometown" is in the right direction but is too specific. If none can be found will the friendly ref desk personnel suggest novel words which could fulfill this definition? 71.77.4.75 (talk) 23:14, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Couldn't find any real word or expression, so I'm gonna go with "nurturing place". (Okay, so it's not a word, but I think it'd get the job done if no better candidate is found. :) Kreachure (talk) 00:37, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
'Place of nurture' would be better. 'Nurturing place' could easily mean the place where the person in question nurtures others. Gerunds are funny in that way.--ChokinBako (talk) 00:49, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Yeah, you're right. "Place of nurture" sounds much nicer too, especially compared to "place of birth". (Malditos gerundios! XD ) Kreachure (talk) 01:11, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Oh, and 'Spanish Native Language Person' should really be 'native speaker of Spanish'. :)--ChokinBako (talk) 01:20, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
"Formative years" exists but can't find a formative place. Likewise "grew up in..." Otherwise hometown applies to where born, or where grew up, or where lives. Julia Rossi (talk) 11:34, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
I would not consider 'hometown' to be a reference to where one lives, if one lives away from the place they were born or the place they grew up in. I was born in Liverpool, UK, but grew up in Huyton, just outside Liverpool. I have lived in many places since then, but when I said 'my hometown' to anyone, it meant either Huyton or Liverpool (because no-one had heard of Huyton).--ChokinBako (talk) 12:14, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Italian swears

Hi all - can anyone give me a list of swear words - profanities - curses - general exclamations of surprise/shock/dismay - that an Italian/Venetian might have employed in the late 16th Century?

Grazie!

Adambrowne666 (talk) 23:52, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Here are a few:

  • shit — merda
  • fuck — cazzo
  • bitch — stronza, troia

--212.120.247.132 (talk) 00:06, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm not realy sure if that is what the OP is asking for. That's just modern Italian swear words. --ChokinBako (talk) 00:45, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
This is also why Finns should avoid saying Katso merta ("Look at the sea") while in Italy. JIP | Talk 05:16, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Wouldn't there be scope for combined innocent words to make profane cursings against one's illegitimate birth, incestual and bestial habits, low upbringing, low character, bearing of despicable diseases, source of foul smells, spurious criminal tendencies, corruption of the saints and bringing down the family lineage (at least)? Julia Rossi (talk) 07:08, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
I forgot the one that must be centuries old, in response to this: Mama mia! Are you running your researches past a few Venetians Adambrowne? Julia Rossi (talk) 11:27, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
(outdent) Florio's dictionary (which I think I may have linked you to before (scanned online here: http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/florio/)) has some swear words in it (surprisingly!). It is somewhat searchable here: http://archimedes.mpiwg-berlin.mpg.de/cgi-bin/archim/dict/hw - I found furfantare and its derivations, fuorsennato, and fottere for a good start —Preceding unsigned comment added by Steewi (talk • contribs) 12:16, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] June 8

[edit] Request for translation in Italian

Any would kindly help me translate the following text in Italian into English please ?

« Dolce paese, onde portai conforme l'abito fiero e lo sdegnoso canto e il petto ov'odio e amor mai non s'addorme, pur ti rivedo, e il cuor mi balza in tanto. Ben riconosco in te le usate forme con gli occhi incerti tra il sorriso e il pianto, e in quelle seguo dei miei sogni l'orme erranti dietro il giovanile incanto. » (Giosuè Carducci, Traversando la maremma toscana)

Thank you so much.--Passawuth (talk) 11:17, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

"Sweet country, where I carried that proud dress and that haughty song, and the breast where hate and love never slept, now that I see you again, my heart begins to dance. I well recognize in you the familiar forms I so well remember with uncertain eyes between smiling and crying, and in these I follow from my dreams the erring traces after the enchanting young one".
I have taken some liberties in the translation, especially with "le usate forme" which I expanded into "the forms I so well remember" because I cannot think of an English adjective right now that has quite the same meaning as "usato" (literally it would be "used" or rather "used to" (ie, the forms I am used to) , but that doesn't fit the English sentence), but you should be able to understand the general meaning and tone of the passage from my translation. -- Ferkelparade π 12:13, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
'Familiar', perhaps?--ChokinBako (talk) 12:46, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Ah, thanks, familiar fits perfectly. I guess I was so caught up in trying to fit "being used to" into the sentence that I couldn't see the obvious :P -- Ferkelparade π 12:59, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Speakers of [FL-X]

What adjectives are there in English to refer to a population or geographic region speaking a particular foreign language? "Anglophone" and "Francophone" come to mind... Sinophone? Russophone? I'd particularly like to know what's suitable for Spanish and German (or Germanic languages), but others would be enlightening as well. And while we're at it, how might I look these up on my own, other than by sheer guesswork? -- Thanks, Deborahjay (talk) 11:39, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, you could certainly make up "Hispanophone" and "Germanophone", and I bet they (as well as Sinophone and Russophone) will get a tolerable number of Google hits, indicating that people have made them up. But that formation isn't endlessly productive, and I would certainly balk at "Yorubaphone", "Lakotaphone", and "Guugu Yimidhirrophone". The usual way of forming such adjectives in English is simply "English-speaking", "French-speaking", "Chinese-speaking", "Russian-speaking", etc. —Angr 12:03, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Tsk, tsk, my dear Angr! Your examples, while striking, are not quite equivalent, as in the two accepted terms with which I opened my query, the names of the languages themselves are modified (Angl and Franc respectively). Knowing of these two led me to wonder if there might be others. Are there really none? -- Deborahjay (talk) 19:10, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Can place be used as a location of text

Hi! I would like to ask two questions in regard to place. Can it be used to mean either a part of a text (eg. The book was boring in many places) or different texts (eg. I have read it in many places that this is not true)? Thanks--Dami (talk) 11:57, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Other than my edit to your post, I don't think either of these sentences are strange.--ChokinBako (talk) 12:05, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
...They may, however, not be the clearest choice in written English, depending on the register of your communication. Consider alternatives such as "..boring in many passages" and "...have read in many published sources..." -- Deborahjay (talk) 12:15, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Further (after reading your User page): If your query is about editing in the English Wikipedia, I'd definitely recommend the substitutions I've suggested... and also (again, a matter of register): tedious (or similar; check a thesaurus) for boring, and numerous for many. -- Deborahjay (talk) 12:19, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

(EDIT CONFLICT) ::I agree. I personally prefer not to use 'many' in the middle of a sentence before a noun in statements. I would use it at the beginning of a sentence ("Many people say..."). I teach this practise to my foreign students, too. It just doesn't sound correct to my British ears. 'Not many', however, is fine ("There are not many people"), as is 'many' in a question ("Are there many people?").--ChokinBako (talk) 12:30, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

(ec) Another view: Your first example is the ordinary way of putting it: "The book was boring in many places" (and "in many passages" is really weird). Your second example works, too, but it is better to be more specific, as Deb has it ("published sources", for example). That little struck-out "it" is interesting. It really does have to be there, but hardly anybody knows that or puts it there to the point where it sounds wrong nowadays. (Don't edit other people's posts, Chokin. This is a big rule on the RefDesks.) --Milkbreath (talk) 12:28, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Sorry, Milk, I knew that. That is why I specifically wrote that I edited it, to avoid confusion. I'll stick closer to the rules from now on.--ChokinBako (talk) 12:32, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Thank you all. Just to clarify its a "personal" question, currently I find it too hard to copyedit an article :( --Dami (talk) 12:34, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Why do you say the 'it' "really does have to be there", Milkbreath? That would be true in many languages but not, as far as I am aware, in English. I think you will be hard-pressed to find an current authority that does claim it should be there, or even could be there, in English. --ColinFine (talk) 13:31, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
It's the same "it" as in "I hate [it] when that happens." Fowler (or Gowers) really goes nuts on it in A Dictionary of Modern English Usage, second edition, Oxford University Press, New York, 1965, calling it "anticipatory it" under the main heading "it". I'm not recommending it, no pun intended, but it ain't wrong, neither. --Milkbreath (talk) 14:55, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] longest english word

Some time ago, I found the complete chemical name for "titin" (189,819 letters); today, I could not find that entry; where did it go?72.228.162.250 (talk) 12:58, 8 June 2008 (UTC)joseph richardson

It's not in our article, and it shouldn't be, but there's a link in footnote 5: [61]. Algebraist 13:03, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] APA citations

if I am quoting from an electronic book from google books, and I need to cite it using the apa format (author, date, name) what date should I put, the date of the publication of that particular copy of that book ( in which case it would be 1859)? or the date on which google uploaded that book. thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.240.203.201 (talk) 15:22, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Is there a word...

The word polymath, roughly, means someone who is gifted in a wide range of subjects/topics. Is there a word which refers to someone who is interested in a wide range of subjects/topics but is not necessarily good at them? --RMFan1 (talk) 17:40, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Dilettante perhaps.--Eriastrum (talk) 19:15, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
"Jack of all trades and master of none." —Lowellian (reply) 19:18, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
As in, Jack of all trades, master of none :) Kreachure (talk) 19:44, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] what does 'a couple of years' mean? 2year? 2~3year? or old year?

what does 'a couple of years' mean? 2year? 2~3year? or old year? and what does mean? 2year? 121.124.4.32 (talk) 19:27, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

It is loosely defined. "A couple" is always more than one, but the upper limit might be anywhere between two and five, maybe six. This is what makes human-speak difficult to translate to computer-speak. JIP | Talk 19:29, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
I think the expression "a couple" is used precisely because it's undefined. So, if you don't know how many years (or whatever) it is exactly, but you know it's only a few (probably five, tops), then you say "a couple of (years)". Kreachure (talk) 19:42, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Precisely. Many Finnish bartenders have taken up the practice of saying "a couple of €" when they mean, exactly, "2€". They think saying "a couple" when they mena "two" is somehow trendy, If I gave them three to five euros, they would most certainly be surprised, but I would be nonplussed after having found out all they ever wanted was 2€. I think saying what you mean is more important than trying to sound "trendy". JIP | Talk 19:55, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
I think most legal systems in the world would be extremely annoyed if a married couple consisted of three to five people rather than exactly two. —Angr 20:33, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Chinese Written Standards

Modern Chinese has to2 Standards, Cantonese and Mandarin.

I believe that the reason this is so is because Hong Kong is an SAR. The Chinese govenment included in the political provisions for a separate written standard for the lingua franca that was and still is spoken in Hong Kong SAR. But most importantly, compared to some other places that are more rural than Hong Kong, the Cantonese written standard first started off in Cantonese opera; as playwrights wrote scripts for their actors and actresses, they wanted to incorporate the vernacular so they used characters not found in Classical Chinese. Are there any dialects that have these written traditions?68.148.164.166 (talk) 02:45, 6 June 2008 (UTC)68.148.164.166 (talk) 02:45, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

The background cited above contains significant mis-information. Although various spoken Chinese dialects can be very different, written Chinese remains rather homogenous across the whole China in the last two thousand years or so -- especially after Qin Shi Huangdi -- and remains so. Mainland China, Taiwan, Hong Kong (and Macau) and Singapore are the four main regions with significant different Chinese cultures. Having said that -- to answer your question -- "the" modern written Chinese language is essentially one, except [not so] trivial differences in choice of word, vocabulary, slang usage, etc; and other superficial variations, e.g. traditional vs simplified characters, vertical vs horizontal writing. --Chan Tai Man 14:54, 6 June 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Chantaiman (talk • contribs)
You are wrong: see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Cantonese#Written_Cantonese and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Written_Cantonese68.148.164.166 (talk) 19:35, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
There is only one 'standard' - Mandarin. Cantonese is not considered an official standard, though when HK was British it was used in official communications alongside English. It is not used so much now, as all official communications in HK are recommended to be in Mandarin, and government officials are working towards that (whether they want to or not). As for dialects that use specific characters not found in Mandarin or Classical Chinese, they all do, to varying degrees. Otherwise people would not be able to read or write vocabulary specific to their own dialect.--ChokinBako (talk) 18:03, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Yes, but Mandarin orthography and Cantonese orthography are significantly different enough that they are not mutally intelligeble. Here's an example, news reporters use 中文, while the lay people use 粵語. The lay people, Cantonese speakers, without formal training (in their case, Education in grade school) would not be able to understand it. Yes, their text books are written in 中文, but they speak 粵語. In fact they speak 中文 in Cantonese phonology. For the untrained speaker, 中文 phonologically spoken in Cantonese and 粵語 phonologically spoken in Cantonese is mutually unintelligeble.68.148.164.166 (talk) 19:35, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, the background given by the original poster in his question is very misleading. Besides the things other people mentioned, there are many more dialects/languages in current and common use besides Cantonese, among them Shanghainese and Taiwanese. —Lowellian (reply) 21:24, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

You're right. My question is, as leading from my reply with chinese characters, is maybe Shanghainese or Hakka has these written orthographies. Could you list them?68.148.164.166 (talk) 19:35, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Mathematics

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[edit] June 2

[edit] Quasiconvex subgroups of a finitely generated group

I'm trying to show that if G is a finitely generated group, and H is a quasiconvex subgroup of G (that is, there's some natural k such that for any a, b in G, any geodesic γ from a to b in the Cayley graph of G lies within the k-neighbourhood of H), then H is itself finitely generated. I'm having trouble because I don't really know how to show that a subgroup is finitely generated short of coming up with an actual generating set for it, but H seems too arbitrary for an explicit generating set formulation. Google has found me a couple of people asserting the result, but no proofs. Can anybody suggest any approaches to take? Thanks. Maelin (Talk | Contribs) 11:44, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Aha! Figured it out with a friend. Thanks to anybody who spent some time thinking about it! Maelin (Talk | Contribs) 03:25, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Complex cube root

Real and imaginary part of complex square roots can be expressed as radicals: We're looking for the real solutions for x and y for given reals a and b so that: (x + i \cdot y)^2 = a + i \cdot b

Solution:
x = \pm \sqrt{\frac{a + \sqrt{a^2 + b^2}}{2}}
y = \frac{b}{2 \; x}


Is there a similar representation for the cube root? I derived an equation of degree 12 which looks like it's maybe not impossible to transform it to a quartic equation of x3 or a cubic equation of x4:

x^{12} + 63 \; x^9 - 3 a \; x^8 - 45 a \; x^6 + 3 a^2 \; x^4 - (18 a^2 + 27 b) \; x^3 - a^3 = 0

Icek (talk) 15:13, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

It is certainly possible. The derivation is not nice though. Let x be the required root, and z the initial value. Then obviously x^3=z. This expression in polar form after applying demoivre's theorem yields rx^3(cos(3θx)+isin(3θx))=rz(cos(θz)+isin(θz)), where rx is the radius of x, θx is its angle, and respectively rz and θz are the radius and angle of z. Without loss of generality, we can make both rz and rx one. If |z| does not equal 1, then let z'=z/|z| and x'=x/|x|. |x| can easily be solved from |z| and x can be solved from x' and |x|. So, we can find x from x' and |z|. With this, the statement is simply (cos(3θx)+isin(3θx))=(cos(θz)+isin(θz)). Using trig identities, 4cos^3(θx)-3cos(θx)+3isin(θx)-4isin^3(θx)=cos(θz)+isin(θz). Seperating real and imaginary parts, this yields
4cos^3(θx)-3cos(θx)=cos(θz)'
3sin(θx)-4sin^3(θx)=sin(θz).

These two expressions are equivalent, so we choose the first one. Let a=cos(θx) and C=cos(θz). We get the expression 4a^3-3a=C, which is solveable through the cubic equation. By backtracking through our process with the found value of a, you can find x', and subsquently x. Indeed123 (talk) 16:24, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Thank you very much - that seems to be a much easier way. Icek (talk) 19:53, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
An easier method would be to just convert the a+ib into reiθ for 0 \leq \theta < 2\pi and r \in \mathbb{R}_{>0}. Then, x + iy = seiφ where s = r1 / 3 and 3\phi = \theta \mod2\pi. Polynomials are overrated. -mattbuck (Talk) 20:07, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Well, that's beside the point, I knew that way. Icek (talk) 21:21, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

What is the point, by the way? Why not

x + i \cdot y = (a + i \cdot b)^{1/3}

Bo Jacoby (talk) 14:08, 3 June 2008 (UTC).

I think the OP is looking for the real and imaginary parts of the cube root, so just writing it like that doesn't help. --Tango (talk) 14:13, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
I think the answer is no. You may be able to reduce the question to a cubic equation, but that cubic equation will be such that it cannot be solved explicitly without taking the cube roots of a complext number. I've read that it is actually proven that you cannot solve all cubic equations explicitly with just radicals over real numbers and basic operations, you do need either radicals over complex numbers or trigonometric functions. Obviously you could get an approximation that converges fast or something like that if you don't want to do trig functions. – b_jonas 14:34, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Yes, it seems so. Trying to solve Indeed123's cubic equation with the standard method you'll encounter a term sqrt(c2 - 27), and c is a certain cosine. Is there a theorem saying that you cannot solve higher roots of complex numbers (just the basic roots, not whole polynomial equations) with radicals in real number (we need only consider prime exponents here)? Icek (talk) 01:11, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

This is a pre-computer problem. Before the time of the computer, people used tables of logarithms and trigonometric functions of real arguments, and so it was interesting to reduce algebraic problems to real root extraction and trigonometry. This was called an explicite solution. When a computer is available, there is no advantage in reducing the problem to extraction roots of real numbers. Even when it is possible, it is not a shortcut to the solution. Just solve the original equation z3=a using the Durand-Kerner method. Bo Jacoby (talk) 19:49, 3 June 2008 (UTC).

I'm sure the OP is not interested in finding the root numerically in practice, but rather in the aesthetics of being able to express a quantity with a limited set of tools. The main driving force of mathematical advancement is its beauty, not any immediately obvious applications. -- Meni Rosenfeld (talk) 20:05, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree. Yet the equation z3=a is beautiful and should be considered an answer rather than a question. Mathematicians often consider an equation like F(a,x) = 0 a problem, and an equation like x = f(a) a solution. My point is: stop doing that! The equation F(a,x) = 0 can be solved numerically if you want to do so, but until then, don't even try. Let it be the answer. Bo Jacoby (talk) 20:29, 3 June 2008 (UTC).

Bo Jacoby, are you actually implying that the Galois theory of the solution of equations by radicals is ugly and pointless, or am I misinterpreting you? Algebraist 09:46, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

No. The Galois theory itself teaches us that solving algebraic equations by radicals is not an attractive path in general, as most equations surprisingly cannot be solved that way. Since antiquity mathematicians had reduced quadratic equations to extraction of square roots, and since the renaissance mathematicians had reduced cubic equations to the extraction of square roots and cube roots. So it was generally conjectured that solving equations by radicals was the way to go. But square roots of negative numbers appeared in the process, so the result was not quite as nice as hoped. And the indispensable use of complex numbers made the reduction to radicals less useful, as tables of roots of complex numbers were inconvenient. (The square root of a complex number was computed by first transforming the complex number into polar coordinates, looking up the square root of the positive modulus, and halving the argument, and transforming back to rectangular coordiantes, using trigonometric tables). On the other hand the fundamental theorem of algebra replaces this ugliness with beauty: every polynomial can be factored into linear polynomials. The lesson is that the polynomial defines it roots, and using radicals has no advantage. Bo Jacoby (talk) 14:09, 4 June 2008 (UTC).

[edit] A series

Is there a closed formula for \sum_{i=1}^\infty \frac{1}{x^2+1}? Thanks, --Dr Zimbu (talk) 15:32, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes, assuming you meant \sum_{i=1}^\infty \frac{1}{i^2+1}, it is equal to \frac12\left(-1+\pi\frac{e^{\pi}+e^{-\pi}}{e^{\pi}-e^{-\pi}}\right). -- Meni Rosenfeld (talk) 15:49, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Three-dimensional geometry question

If a pyramid is built with its apex on top of the center of a unit square, what is the relationship between the height of the pyramid and the angle subtended by each side of the square at the apex? --Masatran (talk) 18:38, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Call the length of the sides of the base b. Call the apex point A. From A drop a perpendicular to the base and call the intersection point B and the length of the segment h (I assume that's the height you are talking about). Now from B draw a perpendicular to one of the edges of the base and call the point of intersection C (it will be the midpoint of the edge since the base is a square). The distance BC is b/2. ABC forms a right triangle, and we are trying to find the hypotenuse AC. By the pythagorean theorem it is \sqrt{h^2+(b/2)^2}. --Prestidigitator (talk) 01:08, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Diagrams are fun! Made this to assist. Chris M. (talk) 06:04, 3 June 2008 (UTC)


Prestidigitator has not given the final solution, but I was able to extend his argument to the final solution thus:
Let the line segment of which C is the mid-point, be DE. Note that b equals 1. Let \theta = \angle{DAE} be the angle subtended by each side of the square at the apex.
\tan(\tfrac{\theta}{2}) = \frac{1}{2 \sqrt{h^2 + \tfrac{1}{4}}}
It would be great if someone updated the image.
--Masatran (talk) 16:44, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Oh yeah. I kinda dropped the ball half-way, huh? Completely lost track of what the final goal was. That's funny. Sorry about that. --Prestidigitator (talk) 22:53, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Image, updated. I knew there was something missing :P. Chris M. (talk) 03:42, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Error in the figure: Note that \theta = \angle{DAE} \ne \angle{ACB} --Masatran (talk) 08:12, 4 June 2008 (UTC)


[edit] June 3

[edit] Non measurable sets having continuous boundaries

Is there any example of a non-measurable set in the plane whose boundary is a continuous closed curve?--Pokipsy76 (talk) 07:09, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes. You can choose a Vitali set which is dense in [0,1]. Cross this with the interval, and we get a non-measurable subset of [0,1]x[0,1] whose boundary is the whole square. But [0,1]x[0,1] is a continuous closed curve. Algebraist 10:25, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Ok, let's consider a more restrictive hypothesis: the boundary must be a Jordan curve, that means it must also be non self-intersecting. Can we still find an example?--Pokipsy76 (talk) 13:31, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Let B be a set in the plane with boundary being some set C. Suppose we are given that B and C are disjoint. This implies that B is open, and thus Lebesgue measurable.
If C is a Jordan curve, then we know from the Jordan curve theorem that its complement in the place is two connected components, one unbounded component A and one bounded component B, whose boundaries equal C. By definition B and C are disjoint, so the above argument applies and B is Lebesgue measure. Eric. 144.32.89.104 (talk) 14:35, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
I don't follow your argument. By what definition are B and C disjoint? You've assumed they are, but you defined B to be any set in the plane... Doesn't that proof still allow for a non-measurable set which is the union of an open set and part (or all) of its Jordan curve boundary? I suspect that it isn't actually a problem (I haven't really studied any measure theory, so I'm not 100% sure), but it still needs to be addressed. --Tango (talk) 16:08, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Suppose B is non-measurable and has boundary C, a Jordan curve. By subtracting the interior of B, we may assume that B is contained in C. Since Lebesgue measure is complete, it's enough to show that Jordan curves have zero area. Is this true? Algebraist 18:16, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
JSTOR tells me it is not. Damn. Algebraist 18:17, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
I was thinking the same thing, but didn't know enough measure theory to know either way. I know not all curves have zero area (Peano curves being the obvious example), but wasn't sure about Jordan curves. Did your investigation find a example of a such a curve? Although, we don't actually need the measure to be zero, as long as it is measurable, correct? Did JSTOR tell you they weren't necessarily measurable, or just that the measure wasn't necessarily zero? --Tango (talk) 18:42, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
A Jordan curve is measurable (it's closed, after all), but it is not obvious to me that any dense subset of one is measurable, which is what we need. Any subset of a zero area set is measurable, so I was hoping for that. Yes, Osgood's ancient paper gives a construction, though I didn't read it. Algebraist 18:45, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Assuming property 15 in Lebesgue measure is true, we're fine (any Jordan curve is a continuous injective image of the circle, all of whose subsets are measurable). That property is neither obvious nor referenced. Algebraist 19:01, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Well, this conclusion seems to be incompatible with the assertion that there's a Jordan curve of positive area -- any set of positive measure has a non-measurable subset, in fact a subset of inner measure zero and outer measure equal to the measure of the original set.
Are you sure that any Jordan curve is a continuous image of a circle embedded in the plane? You seem to need that to get your conclusion from the property 15 stated above. But I think the stated property is just false -- there are continuous (in fact order-preserving) injections that blow the middle-thirds Cantor set up to a set of positive measure, so if you take a non-measurable subset of that set and pull it back, you refute the claim. --Trovatore (talk) 03:28, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Actually I seem to have misread it -- I thought it was talking about continuous functions from Rn to Rn. It doesn't matter; it's wrong in either case. I went ahead and took it out. --Trovatore (talk) 03:36, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
So we know that any subset of a Jordan curve is measurable and this completely solve the problem. However I'm still wondering if a Jordan curve can really have non-zero measure...--Pokipsy76 (talk) 19:24, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Go read A Jordan Curve of Positive Area, William F. Osgood, Transactions of the American Mathematical Society, Vol. 4, No. 1 (Jan., 1903), pp. 107-112 if you really want to. Unfortunately JSTOR doesn't have the diagrams, and I don't feel up to understanding it without them. Algebraist 19:32, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Tango, yes for some reason I was (incorrectly) assuming that the set whose boundary was a Jordan curve was necessarily one of the two connected components produced by Jordan's theorem. But fortunately Algebraist has sorted it out. Eric. 144.32.89.104 (talk) 21:16, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

The answer to the original question is YES:

  1. Any Lebesgue set of positive measure has non-measurable subsets.
  2. There are Jordan curves with positive Lebesgue measure.
  3. Let γ be a Jordan curve with positive Lebesgue measure and let A be a non-measurable subset of γ, then the domain surrounded by γ union with A is a non-measurable set as required.

I'll be happy to provide a reference or proof to any of these claims apon demand. Oded (talk) 05:07, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I thought your (1) was true, but I couldn't find a reference online. Could you provide one, so I can add it to Lebesgue measure? Algebraist 09:42, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
While you are at it, you may consider adding 2 to Lebesgue measure. There are references for it at books.google.com and curve mentions it. I don't know a reference for 1, but it is easy to prove. First, we construct a measure preserving transformation from the set to an interval in R. Then argue that the pre-image of a non measurable set in the interval has to be non-measurable as well. (Alternatively, perhaps one of the proofs of the existence of non-measurable sets in R applies directly to this case as well.) I got to go now, but I'll come back to this with more details soon. Oded (talk) 10:25, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
So does that mean property 15 in Lebesgue measure isn't actually true? --Tango (talk) 12:03, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Yes. Trovatore has removed it. Algebraist 12:07, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
I don't have a reference, but I can give you a proof: Let A be a set of positive measure, and together wellorder the open sets of measure less than m(A) and the closed sets of positive measure, in order-type 2^{\aleph_0}. Now we're going to build up disjoint sets B and C by transfinite recursion. When you hit a closed set K of positive measure, pick an element of K that is not yet committed, and throw it into C (guaranteeing that K will not be a subset of B). You can do that because so far you've committed fewer than 2^{\aleph_0} points, and K has cardinality 2^{\aleph_0}. Similarly, when you come to an open set U, pick an element of A\U that is not yet committed, and throw it into B, guaranteeing that B will not be a subset of U.
At the end, B is a subset of A that has no closed subsets of positive measure, so it has inner measure 0. Also, B is not contained in any open set of measure less than m(A), so B has outer measure at least (and therefore exactly) m(A). --Trovatore (talk) 17:51, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Thanks. Algebraist 21:22, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
By the way, in answer to your question above, it is the case that for any Jordan curve in the plane, there is a homeomorphism of the plane that maps the unit circle onto your curve. This is the Jordan–Schönflies theorem. Algebraist 21:27, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
I think the following proof is easier and more transparent than the one by transfinite induction. (I mean a proof that any measurable set of positive Lebesgue measure has a non-measurable subset.) Let A be the set, and with no loss of generality assume that A is bounded (this is anyway the case in the present application). Say that two points in A are equivalent if the difference between them is a vector with rational coordinates. Let B be a subset of A which contains one element from each equivalence class. (I guess that the existence of B is proved using Zorn's lemma, the axiom of choice is used here.) We claim that B is not measurable. Fix a bounded open set U, and let U' be the set of points in U with rational coordinates. For u in U' set B_u := B+u. Then these sets are disjoint by construction. If they were measurable, the union would have measure equal to the sum of the measures, and this has to be zero or infinity, since the measure of each B_u is the same as that of B. But now we get a contradiction, since if U is sufficiently large, then on the one hand the union of all the B_u (for u in U') contains A, while on the other hand it is bounded. Thus, at least on of the B_u is non-measurable, which implies that B is non-measurable. (This proof mimicks one of the standard constructions of a non-measurable set in R.) Oded (talk) 21:57, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Thanks again. You don't need Zorn there, by the way: it's just a direct application of the axiom of choice. Algebraist 22:05, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Hmm -- it's a nice proof, and I suppose it is a little easier. But more transparent? With the transfinite recursion proof, you just figure out what you need to do (refute all possible sets witnessing positive inner measure, or outer measure less than m(A)), and straightforwardly deal with them one at a time. It also gets you more information. There's a diffidence about transfinite recursion in a lot of circles that I don't really understand. I think it's a basic technique that every mathematician (well, at least every mathematician who deals with infinite structures) should know. --Trovatore (talk) 22:52, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Agreed. I also agree with your sentiment regarding transfinite recursion and with your observation that some mathematicians disdain it. I guess it all depends on one's background and taste. Oded (talk) 04:23, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Set Notation, bis

In a previous question on this reference desk, someone asked about set notation. One thing that ended up being mentioned was this:

\sum_{d \in D,\;dBc} \ldots

I've seen things that look like that on various Wikipedia articles, but my question is, what exactly does notation like that mean? Digger3000 (talk) 14:03, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

It means "sum over all the elements of D that are related to c by the relation B". --Tango (talk) 14:09, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Perhaps slightly more generally, "sum over all the elements of D satisfying dBc". Of course, in our case dBc means "d is related to c by the relation B". -- Meni Rosenfeld (talk) 14:36, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

And what is a relation, exactly? Digger3000 (talk) 20:37, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, we do have an article about everything. The short version: Things like "=" and "<" are relations. -- Meni Rosenfeld (talk) 20:41, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] question about equations and expressions

What is the difference between an equation and an expression?Could I solve for a varible in an expression?Could I solve for a varible in an equation? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lighteyes22003 (talk • contribs) 14:46, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Take a look at equation and expression. It may be helpful to think of an "equation" as a complete sentence, and an "expression" as a noun: for example, the equation "8 = 3 + 5" is like a complete sentence asserting that 8 is the sum of 3 and 5, whereas the expression "3 + 5" is like a noun, representing the sum of 3 and 5. After all, in English the phrase "the sum of three and five" is a noun, and the phrase "the sum of three and five is equal to eight" is a sentence. Eric. 144.32.89.104 (talk) 15:06, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Put simply, an equation has a equals sign in it (hence the name). An expression is a more general term, equations are examples expressions, but so is pretty much any other meaningful sequence of mathematical symbols. "Solving" doesn't make sense for general expressions. You can solve an equation, a system of equations, an inequality or system of inequalities, and probably a few other types of expression, but not all types (and even then, they need to contain a variable, 1+1=2 is an equation, but it would be meaningless to try and "solve" it). Of course, even if you have an equation with a variable, that doesn't mean it actually has a solution. There are no real (or even complex) solutions to "ex=0", for example, but that's a perfectly valid equation. --Tango (talk) 16:00, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Also, an equation too might not contain any variables, so you won't be able to solve 1+1=2. -- Xedi (talk) 21:59, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
I said that... I even used that example... --Tango (talk) 23:49, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Haha, sorry, I must've read your answer very absent-mindedly. --XediTalk 05:49, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Expressions are phrases made up of combinations of variables. Equations represent relationships that expressions obey.--Fangz (talk) 22:43, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Combinations of variables, constants, operators, etc. --Tango (talk) 23:49, 3 June 2008 (UTC)


[edit] June 4

[edit] Laws of Cosines

I understand how the laws of cosines work, but what I can't figure out is how, when they give you all three sides of a triangle, you do the problem. I get to a certain point and then get stuck... Could someone go step by step through an example and explain what they are doing each step? --Devol4 (talk) 06:45, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Easy!

side_A = 10 cm
side_B = 7 cm
angle_C = 20 degrees

Find the length of side_C

Solution:

side_C ^ 2 = side_A ^2 + side_B ^2 - 2 * side_A * side_B * Cosine(angle_C)
side_C ^ 2 = 10^2 + 7^2 - 2 * 10 * 7 * Cosine(20 degrees)
side_C ^ 2 = 100 + 49 - 140 * Cosine(20 degrees)
side_C ^ 2 = 100 + 49 - 140 * 0.9397
side_C ^ 2 = 100 + 49 - 131.558
side_C ^ 2 = 17.442
thus after we take the (positive) square root
side_C = 4.176 cm

The end. 122.107.152.72 (talk) 08:42, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

I think he actually wanted to know how it works when you have all three sides known. Suppose you know the length of sides a and b, which are adjacent to angle C, and you also know side c which is opposite C. Then you just rearrange the formula to put cosC on its own. Then all the values on the opposite side you should know, and so you have the exact value of cosC. Take the inverse cosine of each side and you're there. -mattbuck (Talk) 08:59, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Alternatively, you can be given all three sides and are asked to find an angle.

side_A = 10 cm
side_B = 7 cm
side_C = 4.176 cm

Find the value of angle_C

Solution:

side_C ^ 2 = side_A ^2 + side_B ^2 - 2 * side_A * side_B * Cosine(angle_C)

After moving "side_A ^2 + side_B ^2" across to the Right Hand Side

side_C ^ 2 - side_A ^2 - side_B ^2 = - 2 * side_A * side_B * Cosine(angle_C)
Next we multiple both sides with negative one (-1)
side_A ^2 + side_B ^2 - side_C ^ 2 = 2 * side_A * side_B * Cosine(angle_C)
Next we divide both sides with "2 * side_A * side_B"
(side_A ^2 + side_B ^2 - side_C ^ 2) / (2 * side_A * side_B) = Cosine(angle_C)

Now we put the numerical values in

(100 + 49 - 17.442) / ( 2 * 10 * 7) = Cosine(angle_C)
131.558 / 140 = Cosine(angle_C)
0.9397 = Cosine(angle_C)
Now I look up my ArcCosine Table for the entry 0.9397 to get
19.99 degrees = angle_C

Thank you Ohanian (talk) 08:57, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Alright, thanks. I managed to figure out that I was typing it into the calculator wrong... Bad me. But thanks for the help, I now understand it better and it should help me in the test next period.

--Devol4 (talk) 11:43, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] ax^n+bx+c

I think this is a special class of equation that has been studied a bit, but can’t figure out what they're called. Equations of the form ax^n+bx+c. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.127.186.122 (talk) 19:22, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Those would most likely be polynomials, assuming that n is a non-negative integer. — Lomn 19:32, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] A Mathematical Puzzle

You have 25 horses, and a track on which you can race five of them at a time. You can determine in what order the horses in a race finished, but not how long they took, and so can not compare times from one race to another. A given horse runs at the same speed under all circumstances, and no two horses run at the same speed. How many races does it take to find the three fastest? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 171.69.159.185 (talk) 22:07, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

It was never completely answered, though: no-one proved that you can't do it in six races. Algebraist 22:26, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
I still say I could do it in only 53,130 races. -mattbuck (Talk) 22:32, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Well done. Algebraist 22:37, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
I have no idea. But if you think bout it like this: 1st race:5 horses, who wins means nothing because they could all be the fastest or all be the slowest, so take the top three against 2,so far, you have 7 horses and you know your relative fastest three. continue the top three against next two and you get 11 races. But I probably did something wrong, and knowing how everything in math has to do with patterns I'm going to say 15, 1+2+3+4+5, or the 5th triangle number.--Xtothe3rd (talk) 03:12, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
As mentioned in the archived discussion, it's fairly easy to see that seven races are enough for the top three, and that five can't even give you the top one. Probably six aren't enough, but I at least can't prove it. The problem is that six races are enough to demonstrate which are the top three if you somehow know already, so the naive proof fails. Algebraist 07:36, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
If you decided to follow the following strategy - which in general is *not* optimal;
  • Race the first 5 horses
  • Race the next four horses with the current overall 3rd placed horse, based on the races already done.
  • If the 3rd placed overall horse wins, race it again against the next four horses.
  • If the 3rd placed overall horse does not win, race the current overall fastest and 2nd fastest against the first three that beats the 3rd overall fastest.
If it turns out that the winner, runner up, and 3rd place of race one are actually the fastest three horses, then, if you followed the above strategy, then the top three horses would be known after only 6 races. So for some cases, it would be possible to do it in less than 7. Richard B (talk) 14:06, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
You could look at it as a combinatorial game: one player chooses which horses to race in each round and tries to deduce the top three, the other chooses the outcomes of the races (subject to consistency with earlier rounds) and tries to stop the first player from succeeding in six rounds or less. It's obvious that one player or the other must have a winning strategy, you just need to find out which one it is. Anyone have a good game tree solver? —Ilmari Karonen (talk) 14:46, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
By the way, just to clarify, does the task require determining the order of the fastest three horses, or just which ones they are? That is, would a method that allowed one to determine that A, B and C are the fastest three horses, but not whether A is faster than B, qualify? —Ilmari Karonen (talk) 14:46, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Having thought about this while on the bus, I can now prove that six races are not enough, at least not if the fastest three horses have to be ranked. In fact, I can prove a stronger result: six races are not enough to uniquely determine both the fastest and the second-fastest horse. The proof proceeds as follows:
To determine the fastest horse, 24 contenders for the first place must be eliminated. This can be done in six races, but only just: each race can eliminate at most four contenders, for a total of 6 × 4 = 24. To achieve this, every horse in each race must be a contender for the first place; that is, none of them may have lost an earlier race.
Thus, the sixth and final race must be between five horses that have not lost any previous race. Further, at least one of them must've won an earlier race; after five races there can be at most four horses who haven't yet participated in any race. Call that horse X. If horse X wins the final race, there will be at least two other horses that have only ever lost to X: the one that came second in the last race, and the one that came second in the previous race that X won. Thus, the second-fastest horse will not be uniquely determined in only six races, Q.E.D. —Ilmari Karonen (talk) 20:37, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Looks good to me. --Tango (talk) 21:11, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
How about if they don't have to be ranked? Black Carrot (talk) 01:13, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
This was the interpretation I took, that it asks only for the 3 fastest though not necessarily ordering those 3. Does this change the question significantly? 98.221.167.113 (talk) 02:08, 6 June 2008 (UTC) whoops, mine Someletters<Talk> 02:09, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Probably not, but it invalidates the proof technique I used (consider all strategies for finding the winner in six races, then show that none of them is able to always determine the second place too). By the way, note that my proof above has a minor, fortunately inconsequential omission: to eliminate four contenders for the first place in one race, it's not necessary for all of the entrants to have never lost before, merely for all but the winner. However, since one cannot determine the winner of such a race in advance, there's no way to take advantage of this. —Ilmari Karonen (talk) 11:42, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
But what about my situation above? I chose a different strategy in deciding who races - in picking a horse for a subsequent race that *had* already been beaten (into 3rd place) - and if you were fortuitous enough that the fastest three horses were all selected to take part in the first race - then the top three horses can be both determined - and ranked - in 6 races.Richard B (talk) 12:15, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
That works only if you already know which the fastest three horses will be, or if you're really lucky. The original request was for a method that would allow determining the fastest three horses in six races in every case, no matter how unlucky you might be. —Ilmari Karonen (talk) 13:01, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
(ec) I think a slight modification will work, though. This is off the top of my head, and so probably more convoluted than necessary:
Even if you don't need to order the fastest three horses, that still means you need to eliminate at least 22 contenders for the first place (since, clearly, any horse who might be the fastest could also be one of the three fastest). In five races you can eliminate at most 20, which means that, before the last race, there will be at least five horses who could be fastest (not to mention several more who could be second- or third-fastest) and again, at least one of them (call it X) must've won at least one earlier race.
If there are more than five, the last race can disqualify at most two of them from being among the fastest three, which is obviously not enough. If there are exactly five, that means exactly 20 must've been eliminated in the first five rounds, and thus no horse can have lost more than one race. Thus, the horse who came second in the previous race that X won has not lost to any other horse, and is thus still a contender for the second place. We'll call that horse Y.
If at most three of the five remaining first-place contenders participate in the last race, we'll assume they score among the fastest three in that race, and will thus all remain contenders for the first three places overall. If four do, we'll assume three of them take the first three places in that race, and so there will still be at least four contenders for the first three places overall. Finally, if all of the five first-place contenders participate in the last race, then we'll assume that the winner of that race will be X. Then Y, together with the first three horses from the last race, will still be a contender for the first three places overall. In each case, there will be at least four horses left who might be among the fastest three, Q.E.D. —Ilmari Karonen (talk) 12:59, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Yup. Sounds good. Black Carrot (talk) 18:38, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] June 5

[edit] Limits

I am studying the basics of limits and I have two questions:

1.In calculating limits of some functions, you will have the situation that the limit is undefined since it has to be divided by 0. For example:

\lim_{x \to \ 3}\frac{\sqrt{x-3}}{x^2-9}

You can't get the limit unless you eliminate the x-3 somehow. But basically, what changes is not the value of the fucntion but what it looks like. I feel like I have skipped the problem of zero division rather than solve it right through the limit. The feeling I have is similar to the history that people couldn't notate some numbers because they didn't have the concept of zero. Is there also some imperfection in modern notating system so that we don't know how to manage zero division?

2.limit of a function should be "a value that a function can infinitely APPROACH to". This implies that the function is not necessarily continuous at the limit. However, the process of limit calculation is just substitution, as if the function can surely reach the limit without being undefined. Isn't there any problem?

--Lowerlowerhk (talk) 05:03, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

I think your two questions are very much related, and I hope that what I say below will help you. It is not true that the process of limit calculation is just substitution. Let's consider some function f(x) and consider the limit as x tends to zero. Then think of f as undefined at zero (even if it is) and figure out the value to assign to f at zero so that it would become continuous. This would be the limit then. A very simple example would be \frac{x-3}{x-3}. It is undefined at 3, but the only way to define it at 3 in order for it to be continuous is to set it to 1. Oded (talk) 05:42, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
(edit conflict) The best way to think of it is that the value of a limit is equal to the number you approach when you choose a value at a point arbitrarily close to the intended point, without actually choosing that point. That is, you pick a point close to the given point, then you pick one that's closer, and one that's closer than that, and so on. The smaller the distance is, the closer the number is to the actual value of the limit, regardless of what would happen if you actually tried to evaluate the function at the target value. As for your question on "imperfection in modern notating system", see the article on infinitesimals. « Aaron Rotenberg « Talk « 05:50, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
In cases like this you can use L'Hôpital's rule, I will not go over the specifics unless you wish me to, but in a nutshell you can use it where substitution would give \frac{0}{0} or \frac{\infty}{\infty}. Rambo's Revenge (talk) 12:25, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Woooah ... in the case of
\frac{f(x)}{g(x)}=\frac{\sqrt{x-3}}{x^2-9}
L'Hôpital's rule does not help us because
\lim_{x \to \ 3}\frac{f'(x)}{g'(x)}
does not exist, and so this tells us nothing about the original limit (L'Hôpital's rule is an if, not an if and only if). Anyway, there is a simpler algebraic solution - cancel the common factor from numerator and denominator to get a function that is identical to the original function except at the point x=3, then use the behaviour of the new function as x approaches 3 to draw a conclusion about the existence of the original limit.
Returning to Lowerlowerhk's original questions, I suspect that some of the underlying confusion may be due to their exposure to an informal and non-rigorous treatment of limits and continuity. Throw away the "infinities" and work through a proper epsilon and delta treatement of limits, and all will become much clearer. Gandalf61 (talk) 12:57, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Of course if we do that, i.e. cancel the common factor, you get a function that by inspection you can see doesn't converge as x->3.Richard B (talk) 13:48, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Getting back to L'Hôpital's rule for a second, doesn't it still apply if \lim_{x \to \ 3}\frac{f'(x)}{g'(x)} is \infty? Specifically, if \lim_{x \to \ 3}\frac{f'(x)}{g'(x)} = \infty then doesn't it follow that \lim_{x \to \ 3}\frac{f(x)}{g(x)} = \infty? 63.95.36.13 (talk) 16:03, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
The rule actually does apply here: note that the requirement is only that the resulting "derivative limit" take on a value in the extended reals, so an infinite result does carry back to the original limit. --Tardis (talk) 16:05, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Yes, I stand corrected. But I still think that l'Hôpital's rule is an unnecessarily baroque approach for this particular problem. Gandalf61 (talk) 16:27, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Woooah, I opened a can of worms here. Whilst theoretically it can be applied, i did overlook the precise question, and practically it is not the best method. Apologies Rambo's Revenge (talk) 17:14, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
We might want to talk about left and right limits. Note that the original expression is imaginary for x<3, so there is no (real) left limit. For the right limit:
\lim_{x \to 3^+} \frac{\sqrt{x-3}}{x^2-9} = \lim_{x \to 3^+} \frac{\sqrt{x-3}}{(x+3)(x-3)} = \lim_{x \to 3^+} \frac{1}{(x+3)\sqrt{x-3}} = +\infty
--Prestidigitator (talk) 18:37, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
And, since positive infinity isn't a real number, there's no real right limit, either... --Tango (talk) 19:50, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Mmm...You can't say the value of a function is infinite somewhere, but an infinite limit is fine as far as I know. --Prestidigitator (talk) 20:13, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
There's nothing wrong with functions that have infinite limits, or for that matter functions that take infinite values. But in neither case is the answer a real number, which was Tango's point. It's an extended real number. --Trovatore (talk) 20:22, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] This was placed on the science desk..you guys might be able to answer it

What is the name of this equation and what is it's significance? What does it mean? \langle\Omega|\mathcal{T}\{\hat{\phi}(x_1)\cdots \hat{\phi}(x_n)\}|\Omega\rangle=\frac{\int \mathcal{D}\phi \phi(x_1)\cdots \phi(x_n) e^{i\int d^4x \left({1\over 2}\partial^\mu \phi \partial_\mu \phi -{m^2 \over 2}\phi^2-{\lambda\over 4!}\phi^4\right)}}{\int \mathcal{D}\phi e^{i\int d^4x \left({1\over 2}\partial^\mu \phi \partial_\mu \phi -{m^2 \over 2}\phi^2-{\lambda\over 4!}\phi^4\right)}} Ζρς ι'β' ¡hábleme! 05:15, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

I think it means, "I really wanted to show off when I was writing this equation". Or maybe, "Nah, nah, my brain is bigger than yours!" « Aaron Rotenberg « Talk « 06:23, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Holy shit, is that an integral inside an exponent inside an integral???? Someguy1221 (talk) 06:44, 5 June 2008 (UTC)


Wisdom89 (T / C) 06:52, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

I think this actually belongs in the physics desk. This looks more like something a physicist would write. More precisely, it looks like statistical physics / quantum statistical physics / conformal field theory. I would not assume that this is necessarily show off. Oded (talk) 09:49, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, looks like physics to me. I think some context would be useful - where did you find the equation? --Tango (talk) 14:32, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
I found it on Uncyclopedia and YouTube; however, it has been verified as a legitimate equation on the Science refdesk. Note: I didn't cross-post this so you don't have to tell me not to. I don't know who did though. Wisdom 89 did. Ζρς ι'β' ¡hábleme! 19:23, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

I think I've seen this before in a book about prime numbers. I think it's something to do with Srinivasa Ramanujan; although I'm most probably wrong... Jonny23415552 (talk) 19:52, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Guessing: The left hand side is a Dirac bracket of quantum mechanics. Ω is a state vector and T is an operator. The right hand side includes covariant tensor derivations of a potential Φ. The denominator is a normalization constant that makes the fraction a probability. The integration inside the exponent is over a four-dimensional volume. The m is a mass and the λ is the cosmological constant. The value of this integral is a phase. The Planck constant does not enter explicitely into the equation, so the units chosen make the Planck constant equal to unity. So this may be an equation attempting to express quantum gravity. I am merely guessing. Bo Jacoby (talk) 21:53, 5 June 2008 (UTC).

[edit] Operator

What does this operator mean (the "\bigoplus" one)? V=\bigoplus_{n=0}^\infty V_n --Ζρς ι'β' ¡hábleme! 19:23, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Direct sum. --Tango (talk) 19:49, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
(ec) The "\bigoplus" is just a big version of "\oplus"; it can be used to depict iterated application of the operator, like the sigma is used for summation. Your formula \bigoplus_{n=0}^\infty V_n is thus equivalent to V_0 \oplus V_1 \oplus V_2 \oplus \cdots, as you probably know.
The interpretation of \oplus itself depends on context; I've seen it used for the XOR operation and for the intersection of constraints in constraint satisfaction literature (the latter is thus identical to the intersection operator \cap). Oliphaunt (talk) 19:56, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
With the Vs, though, it's extremely likely to be the direct sum of vector spaces. Algebraist 23:03, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
See also Wikipedia:Reference desk archive/Mathematics/2006 August 18#What is this called?.  --Lambiam 05:14, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] June 6

[edit] Quotient of an algebraic expression?

I have no idea how to do this one, I just can't figure it out. Please help! I think it's because the coefficient in the first part can't be factored out and I'm not sure how to solve it.

\frac{4x^2-8x+10} {2x+1}

Thanks a bunch! --71.98.9.18 (talk) 02:23, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Are you wanting to factor the numerator? What are you wanting to solve for? There is no equation here, just an expression. Ζρς ι'β' ¡hábleme! 02:47, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Never mind, I think I see what you seek. Cancel the part of the top from the bottom. That should leave you with a simple polynomial to factor. Ζρς ι'β' ¡hábleme! 02:51, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Yes I want to simplify it...and I know I must simplfy the top and bottom, then cross out the same terms, but I don't understand how to do it because of the 4 as the coefficient in front of the x2. --71.98.9.18 (talk) 03:01, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
If you're hoping this simplifies into a simple expression (like a monic linear polynomial or something), I think you'll be disappointed. At least as written, the function has a singularity at x = − .5. 98.221.167.113 (talk) 03:17, 6 June 2008 (UTC)I swear I forget to log in every time! Someletters<Talk> 03:18, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Hmm, I thought so. I graphed it. It is a rational function. Ζρς ι'β' ¡hábleme! 03:22, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
What "simplified" means may depend on your teacher's goals, but one approach would be to rewrite it as:
a*x+b+{c \over 2x +1}
where a, b, c are constant you find. If that is what you want to do, then a generalizable approach is to realize that the ratio:
4x^2-8x+10 \over 2x+1
can also be written as:
{A*(2x+1)^2+B*(2x+1)+C \over 2x+1} = A*(2x+1) + B + {C \over 2x+1}
Where A, B, and C are things you find by expanding the terms and comparing coefficients. Dragons flight (talk) 03:31, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Okay...ha sorry I'm just having a difficult time understanding this. So my answer sheet I have says the answer is \frac{2x-5+15} {2x+1} but I'm not sure how to get that. Would this be correct according to the stuff you listed dragon? --71.98.9.18 (talk) 03:36, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Btw- I really appreciate the help and responses! --71.98.9.18 (talk) 03:37, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
I think you must mean 2x-5+\frac{15}{2x+1}, yes? That's what Dragon's flight's first method was doing - take a look at polynomial division to see what's happening. Confusing Manifestation(Say hi!) 03:48, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Take a ratio of the two highest-degree terms: \frac{4x^2}{2x}={\color{Red}2x}. Now multiple the denominator by itt: {\color{Red}2x}\cdot(2x+1)={\color{OliveGreen}4x^2+2x} and exclude the result from the numerator: (4x^2-8x+10)-({\color{OliveGreen}4x^2+2x})={\color{Blue}-10x+10}. That makes a simplified form of your expression:
\tfrac{4x^2-8x+10} {2x+1} = \tfrac{({\color{OliveGreen}4x^2+2x})+({\color{Blue}-10x+10})} {2x+1} = \tfrac{{\color{Red}2x}\cdot(2x+1)+(-10x+10)} {2x+1} = 2x - \tfrac{10x-10}{2x+1}.
Iterate the method to further reduce the numerator degree, until it gets lower than the denominator degree. --CiaPan (talk) 06:35, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
See also Polynomial long division.  --Lambiam 05:17, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
Ahh, okay, thanks guys! I think I'm getting it! :D --71.117.39.109 (talk) 17:40, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Evolution

Why have we evolved an ability to visualize objects in three dimensions, but no more than that. If that was the case, then that means 3 dimensions has more importance than 2 dimensions as well as more importance than 4 dimensions or more.68.148.164.166 (talk) 04:26, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Likely because being able to understand and deal with a 3D world was essential to survival. A key factor in evolution. -- Tcncv (talk) 04:35, 6 June 2008

(UTC)

One of the answer is that human can only survive in a 3D world,seeAnthropic principle--Lowerlowerhk (talk) 08:06, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
I don't think the Anthropic principle quite applies. The Anthropic Principle says that only universes which are capable of supporting intelligent life can contain intelligent observers within it, but that doesn't preclude the possibility that a higher-dimensional universe could support higher-dimensional intelligent creatures. A universe with five dimensions of space-time could theoretically have five dimensional intelligent creatures within it. We just don't happen to be in such a universe.
Au contraire! This paper from the peer-reviewed journal Classical and Quantum Gravity [62] shows that 3+1 dimensional spacetime is the only one that allows for the existence of intelligent observers who can make reasonable predictions about the future. —Keenan Pepper 18:09, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for the interesting sounding link, Keenan, although unfortunately it appears that I can't read the paper without coughing up money. :( From the abstract it sounds like they are ruling out multiple temporal dimensions, so higher dimensional beings would have to occupy a universe with one temporal dimension and 3+ spatial dimensions. However it doesn't sound like they necessarily ruled out observers in a universe with 4+ spatial dimensions and 1 temporal dimension saying only that "in a space with more than three dimensions, there can be no traditional atoms and perhaps no stable structures." Notice the word "perhaps", implying that they left the door open on the question of having stable "atomic" structures. 63.111.163.13 (talk) 19:25, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
If you want to read it, you can give me an email address and I'll send you a PDF. —Keenan Pepper 18:09, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
Getting back to the original question, though, we can only internally visualize the universe based on the reflection of observable energy like light and sound and through movement of matter and energy in space-time. Therefore we can only internally visualize objects in terms of three spatial dimensions and one temporal dimension. The only way we would have been able to evolve to conceptualize more than three spatial dimensions would be if there was some observable form of energy transmission that travelled through a fourth spatial dimension. 63.111.163.13 (talk) 14:56, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
It's not completely the case that we can't visualize things in four spatial dimensions, and it's not completely the case that we can in three. The most natural things for us to visualize are two-dimensional, since that's the shape of our retina and our internal viewing screen. That is, however visual information is processed, it comes to us as a flat image with a bit of extra info scattered around to imply depth, and especially to imply overlap. The transformation from three dimensions to two is roughly projective, and there's a lot that gets distorted in the process. The only way to actually directly visualize three dimensions would be to have something like a three-dimensional array of memory spaces plus something to keep track of their geometric relationships. That can certainly be finangled within a single person's imagination, and can be generalized to a few more dimensions with effort. Past that, it's got to be hard to hold 20 dimensions of any kind of information in your head at once, but that doesn't mean it's impossible. And yes, it appears that most of that would be unhelpful in ordinary life, which is probably why we don't do it. Two dimensions and a bit is more than enough to get by. I have a problem with the previous post, incidentally. I don't think it's the case that we can only visualize things we've sensed, or could sense. I get more the impression that we have some capacities, and some needs, and try to fit them together as efficiently as is practical. For instance, I've heard (and could probably track down) that people blind from birth still use the same parts of the cortex to keep track of spatial information, suggesting that they experience the world the same way we do (other than the not-colored part). What happens in our heads has to be to some extent independent of what happens in the world around us. For a more mathematically-inclined example, how about curved space? To many people for a very long time, it was flat-out inconceivable. Not just that it couldn't happen in the real world, but that it couldn't even be imagined. Now we know that it is real, and can be imagined, but so can flat space, or space curved differently. Likewise continuous versus discrete. We can imagine all kinds of things that can't exist at the same time because they're mutually exclusive. We're much more flexible than the real world seems to be. Black Carrot (talk) 18:06, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Your point that humans have an easier time envisioning two dimensional projections is valid, and we have more difficulty envisioning 3D spaces. However the original question was why humans evolved to visualize objects in 3 dimensions and not more, and the answer is that we have no 4D spatial objects and energy does not travel in 4 spatial dimension. Everything we encounter and all the lines of transmission are 3D.
As an analogy, consider that we could hypothetically program a computer to work with 4D objects, and such a program could in essence internally view such objects completely accurately, given proper sensory input for all the object's 4D spatial coordinates. But that would be an "intelligent design", you might say, of an AI capable of envisioning things in higher spatial dimensions. By contrast there would be no need to be able to envision things in four dimensions in nature because we never encounter such objects. So mutations which might assist a human to envision things four dimensionally offer no obvious benefit to the organism and therefore are probably not likely to be successful evolutionary off-shoots. 63.95.36.13 (talk) 19:43, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] I need to use this equality but I can't without knowing it's true.

This page says that \scriptstyle\sin^4\theta = \frac{3 - 4 \cos 2\theta + \cos 4\theta}{8}, but there is no proof, even here, where a proof would logically be. I'm unsure that it is in fact the case. Please supply a proof, so I can be sure it's true. Thanks in advance, 71.220.219.115 (talk) 19:00, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Alas, we do not provide proofs for every single degree of n in sinnθ. Nevertheless, I suggest you start on the right-hand-side and use cos2θ = 1 − 2sin2θ and sin2θ = 2sinθcosθ several times. x42bn6 Talk Mess 19:09, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
(ec) Have you tried breaking it down in terms of sin(θ)’s and cos(θ)’s? GromXXVII (talk) 19:11, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
It's definitely true, but try and prove it as Grom suggests. You should be able to do it in 5 lines. -mattbuck (Talk) 20:28, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Just toss in some numbers and check if it works.--Fangz (talk) 20:52, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Yeah, "proof by example" isn't particularly rigorous... --Tango (talk) 22:18, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Well, sure. But for something like trig functions, it's vanishingly unlikely that it will work for 3 or 4 integers by pure chance. If you just want to confirm something that probably can be proved with more effort, five minutes on a calculator can save you lots of work at something that is pretty unimportant for your problem. But then again I work in statistics. --Fangz (talk) 22:27, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Because precision is fun: trigonometric functions are analytic, and thus if two trigonometric expressions are different, then they are equal at at most countably many points. Thus for any sensible random choice of argument, the values of the two expression will almost surely be different. Less precisely: if you plug in a random value into two trig expressions and get the same value, this is very very good evidence that the expressions are equal. Algebraist 22:35, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Thinking, in fact, there is a reasoning here - cos and sin are analytic functions. Hence, this means (roughly) that either it is constantly zero, or the set over which it is zero has zero measure, making it hard to hit it by chance - provided you are selecting numbers actually randomly. Sadly, I doubt your teacher will be pleased with this approach.Dammit, I was going to say the same thing--Fangz (talk) 22:42, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
More to the point, the zeros of an analytic function do not have limit points. This is important since it implies that, for example, the probability of an analytic function being zero at n / 10p, for a given integer p and a uniformly chosen integer 0 ≤ n ≤ 10p (which is what you get in practice if you ask someone to pick a random number between zero and one), tends to zero as p tends to infinity. Mere countability of the set of zeros is not enough to show that, since e.g. the set of all rational numbers is countable. —Ilmari Karonen (talk) 23:35, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

"Alas, we do not provide proofs for every single degree of n in sinnθ. " Well we should! As it is a general formula with a general answer. \sin^n\theta = \frac{1}{(2i)^n}(e^{i\theta} - e^{-i\theta})^n. so then its just a matter of binomial expansion in this case \sin^4\theta = \frac{1}{(2i)^4}(e^{i\theta} - e^{-i\theta})^4 = \frac{1}{16}(e^{i4\theta} - 4e^{i2\theta} + 6 - 4e^{i2\theta} + e^{-i4\theta}) = \frac{1}{16}(2\cos 4\theta - 8\cos 2\theta + 6) Hope this answers your question. Sorry its taken several days. Philc 0780 23:49, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

I've added the general formula here. Please check to see if I've done the right thing. Thanks, --hydnjo talk 12:23, 7 June 2008 (UTC) Guess not! --hydnjo talk 19:01, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] .999...=1

Alright, my dad and I have differing opinions on this. He refuses this fact and I have tried to convince him of it by presenting the algebraic and fraction proofs. This question is about the proof by a fraction.

\frac{1}{3}=.\overset{-}{3}

\frac{2}{3}=.\overset{-}{6}

.\overset{-}{3}+.\overset{-}{6}=.\overset{-}{9}

\frac{1}3 + \frac{2}3 =1

Therefore:

.\overset{-}{9}=.\overset{-}{3}+.\overset{-}{6}=\frac{1}3 + \frac{2}3 =1

My dad refuses this proof because he says the repeating decimal never actually exactly equals the fraction; therefore, .999... never quite equals 1. I tell him that "after and infinite number of decimal places" (for lack of a better term) the decimal is exactly equal to fraction. He refuses this by claiming I am treating an infinite number of places as if it were finite. In this situation, which case is correct, and what is the way to disprove the contrary? Thank you, Ζρς ι'β' ¡hábleme! 23:05, 6 June 2008 (UTC)Oops. I changed "refute" to "refuse" now.

See 0.999.... --Prestidigitator (talk) 23:20, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Just by the way, "refute" means "prove false". If you disagree with him, then it follows that you don't think he's refuted the arguments. --Trovatore (talk) 23:56, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Your dad believes that 0.9999 etc. does not equal 1. Here's the standard proof:

x = 0.\overset{-}{9}

10x = 9.\overset{-}{9}

10x - x = 9x = 9.\overset{-}{9} - 0.\overset{-}{9}

9x = 9

x = 1

Wikiant (talk) 00:26, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I have read the article and shown him that proof too; however, I would prefer something regarding the proof by fractions. Thanks, Ζρς ι'β' ¡hábleme! 01:50, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

11 X 1/11=.09090909.... X 11
11/11=.9999...
same with 1/3 and .333...--Xtothe3rd (talk) 02:10, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
Sometimes it helps if you ask the sufferer of this delusion what they think the result is of subtracting 0.999... from 1.  --Lambiam 05:05, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
He says 1-.\overset{-}{9}=.\overset{-}{0}1 Ζρς ι'β' ¡hábleme! 07:14, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
Then what is the result of multiplying that number by 10?  --Lambiam 09:24, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
Unfortunately, that combination of symbols has no meaning. Take a look at decimal expansion. When you see something like x = 0.d_1 d_2 d_3 \ldots d_n \ldots, you have to understand that there is a precise definition lurking underneath. In this case, the decimal expansion article tells you that, by definition,
0.\overline{9} = \lim_{N \to \infty} \sum_{j=1}^N \frac{9}{10^j}.
A limit is not "moving" or approaching anything. It has a formal definition, and when the limit exists it specifies a single number (or element of the topological space, or whatever). Applying basic limit rules,
\lim_{N \to \infty} \sum_{j=1}^N \frac{9}{10^j} = 9 * \lim_{N \to \infty} \sum_{j=1}^N \frac{1}{10^j} = 9 * \frac{1/10}{1-1/10} = 1.
The derivation of the second to last equality is in geometric series, and it only relies on some basic algebra and properties of the limit. Any other explanation is simply an attempt at persuasion. If someone is uninterested in being persuaded (that is, uninterested in accepting a plausibility argument), then they are obligated to acquire a sufficient understanding of the formal definitions. 24.8.49.212 (talk) 07:52, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
Yeah, I'm also personally uncomfortable with the original fractions proof, (and to an extent, the algebraic proof), since both of them rely on theorems like the fact that you can add, deduct and multiply convergent sequences. It's far better to return to how 0.999... is defined, and say it itself isn't 'a number' (because numbers can be denoted using any number system), but rather it is a statement referring to a number which has 0.9999... as its decimal approximations. Perhaps something that works would be to show him how some 'nice numbers' have an infinite expansion in e.g. base 2.--Fangz (talk) 08:04, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
Maybe you should try thinking of it this way. Your dad says that 0.333... never exactly equals 1/3. But just assume it is another symbol for 1/3, one that is very unintuitive to humans, but does ultimately represent 1/3 because we say so. Then once he accept that 0.333...=1/3 he might accept the proof —Preceding unsigned comment added by RMFan1 (talk • contribs) 17:41, 7 June 2008 (UTC)


[edit] June 7

[edit] How small can small get?

Is there an infinity for the small? Or is there a certain point where you simply can't divide anymore? I've heard of Planck lengths, but I've always had a suspicion that these are just man's mental limits because the math backs me up (1/2, 1/4, 1/8, etc.)Of course this begs the question of how big something can be also. It seems there's no limit there either.--Sam Science (talk) 16:44, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

In maths, there is no limit to how big or small numbers can get. If there was a smallest positive number, you could just half it and get a smaller one, so there clearly isn't a smallest. Likewise, you could double the biggest number and get a bigger one, so there can't be a biggest. The equivalent of infinity for the very small is called "infinitesimal", however for regular numbers (real numbers), the only infinitesimal is actually zero. You keep halving again and again and again and you get closer and closer to zero, you'll never actually get there after a finite of steps, but the limit as the number of steps approaches infinity is zero. If you want the technical version, see Archimedean property.
However, in physics, things are a little different. Mathematical numbers are just an abstract concept, they don't always apply to the real world. While you can keep halving numbers, you can't keep halving physical objects. In quantum mechanics, things are "quantised", which means they can only come in integer multiples of a particular value, so the smallest it can get (without being zero) is fixed at one times that value. That's where the Planck length comes in, roughly speaking (the Planck length isn't quite "the smallest length possible", but it's kind of related - read the article for more information). Zero-point energy is a better example of a smallest possible value - it's the lowest energy level a given physical system can have, and it's not zero. --Tango (talk) 17:37, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for answering my question. While were on the subject of size extremes I think I will ask if there is indeed a limit to "big". A small limit I can kinda understand because at some point small can become meaningless. But, big- that seems to be a different story. You can always add matter or space, correct? I hear the universe is continually expanding, but into what? Doesn't that mean it gets "bigger"? Is there a limit to how big big can get? Or at some point does matter's own weight collapse upon itself and cease to be?--Sam Science (talk) 21:39, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't believe the laws of physics have any upper limits in the way they have lower limits.I'm an idiot, see below. Yes, the universe is expanding, which does indeed means it is getting bigger. It's not really meaningful to ask what it's expanding into, it's more space itself stretching. There isn't an "edge" that's moving further and further from the "centre", each bit of space is just getting bigger and bigger. It might help to imagine a balloon being blown up. Ignore the 3D space that the balloon occupies and just think about the 2D rubber surface as being the universe. There is no centre and no edge to the rubber (ignoring where you're blowing the air into, at least!), it expands by each bit of rubber stretching more and more. There is no limit to how big the universe can get (it may stop expanding eventually, but not because it's reached any kind of size limit - current observations suggest it will just keep going, anyway). I think the closest you get to an upper limit of anything is black holes. Once density increases past a certain point in a region (that point depends on the size of the region, it's smaller for larger regions), it will collapse into a black hole. That kind of puts a limit on densities. --Tango (talk) 21:54, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
Well, universal expansion doesn't necessarily mean the universe is getting bigger (it may already be infinite); what it means is that things are moving farther apart. As for the observable universe, it may be getting smaller. --Trovatore (talk) 22:15, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
True, I guess doubling something infinite doesn't really count as making it bigger. --Tango (talk) 22:49, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
... aaand while we're on the subject, may as well cover the middle. What is the ultimate middlest middle? The "planck middle", if you will? The absolute centerest center of all existence? It can't be my consciousness, because the universe was here long before my chaotically firing neurons showed up  :) --Sam Science (talk) 00:00, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Well, how about zero? That's the middle of numbers. As for a middle in physics, there isn't one. The universe is generally assumed to be (roughly) homogeneous, which means every point is pretty much the same as every other point. You'll always have an origin for your coordinates, which is basically the centre, but you can move that origin to a different place and, on the cosmic scale, it makes no difference to the laws of physics (obviously, on a smaller scale, it matters - things are far different in deep space than they are on the surface of the Earth, for example, but there isn't much difference between the local cluster of galaxies and some cluster billions of light years away). --Tango (talk) 01:04, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
I would think that, assuming there was a big bang of sorts, that the location of that would be a middle of sorts. I’m thinking along the lines of suppose one could easily travel anywhere in the universe, if they travel out far enough from this place they should be able to see it taking place. But travel any farther and they would be able to see nothing that resulted from it. e.g. there is a sphere from that center (that constantly gets larger at the speed of light) outside of which the light-borne information from the big bang cannot be observed. GromXXVII (talk) 11:02, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
The observable universe has a centre - the point where the observer is. The universe as a whole doesn't. The big bang happened "everywhere", since the whole universe was a single point at the beginning (assuming it's finite, which it could well not be, but the basic concept is the same for an infinite universe, just more difficult to visualise). See a couple of paragraphs up where I explained the balloon analogy, note that the balloon has no centre, it's basically a sphere and no point on it is special. --Tango (talk) 11:19, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
[ec]This is a common misconception regarding the big bang. Think about the balloon again (assuming it is perfectly round with no actual air filling hole). When there is no air in the balloon, its surface is a point and its density is infinite. When you start filling it with air, it expands and the distances start increasing. But there is no point on the surface in which the expansion "started". In other words, it's not like there was an infinite space and all the mass was concentrated in a point in this space. The entire space was a point. -- Meni Rosenfeld (talk) 11:21, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Hmm. I guess whether or not it was valid I was thinking of the universe as being nested within some larger space where it therein expanded. GromXXVII (talk) 16:28, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Yes, it's very tempting to do that, but it's best not to if you can help it, it can lead to significant confusion. --Tango (talk) 20:27, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
The free physics textbook Motion Mountain describes how all the results of general relativity can be derived starting from the assumption that there is a maximum power (physics) in the universe (or equivalently maximum force, or equivalently maximum rate of mass flow). These maximum amounts are all equal to 1/4G times the appropriate power of the speed of light, e.g. the maximum power is c5/4G. (G is the gravitational constant.) —Keenan Pepper 03:51, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
I'm an idiot... of course the laws of physics have upper limits, that's the whole premise of relativity... thanks! (See speed of light for the most obvious one.) --Tango (talk) 11:19, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] June 8

[edit] Computing

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[edit] June 2

[edit] Keeping music on an iPod after removing the music from the computer

Hello, my question comes from the fact that I have a 60GB iPod but my computer's harddrive only has 20GB of space. Using the "manually manage music" feature, would it be possible for me to have music on the computer, drag it on to the iPod, and then delete it from the computer? Would the iPod know to keep the music on there once I re-connect it to the computer and the music has been deleted from the computer? I don't want to use it as a portable harddrive; I want to be able to listen to the music I put on there, and I would like to be able to take advantage of the 60GB that my iPod has. I hope this isn't too difficult to understand. Thanks. NIRVANA2764 (talk) 01:30, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Sure, you can put music on your iPod and delete it from your computer. It's just when you plug it back in, it'll ask you if you want to transfer it back to your computer. Don't say don't transfer, or else it'll delete it from you iPod. Just say transfer and delete it afterwards. --Randoman412 (talk) 02:36, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
What if the OP transfer if (s)he has 40 GB of songs on the iPod and just 20 GB in the computer? Kushal (talk) 03:25, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Randoman, you're slightly mistaken — iTunes will only transfer content purchased from the iTunes Store from an iPod back to the iTunes library (see the penultimate paragraph of iTunes#Synchronizing_iPod_and_other_players). There's no way to copy imported (ripped, usually) media back to the computer, without using third-party software. So it depends on how much purchased music the user has as to whether it will be a problem. --alien2k (talk) 12:11, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Yes, just manually manage it. Once you've copied it to the iPod you can delete it off of the computer and it will stay on the iPod. Note, though, that it's tricky (but not impossible) to copy music back from the iPod onto the computer. So for example I've copied all my own CDs to the iPod and deleted them from my computer, because if something happens (the iPod fails) it won't be hard to re-copy them again since I have the original CDs. Music that I don't have any easy way to replace, though, I kept on the computer. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 15:00, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for the advice. No I do not really have any intention of importing music from the iPod back to the computer. You bring up a valid point however - if the iPod fails, the music is gone forever. So maybe I will want to import music from iPod back to computer if I get a bigger harddrive. NIRVANA2764 (talk) 20:12, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Yup, hard disks are cheap. For example, this piece of *rap will set you back by less than USD 100.00 Kushal (talk) 00:26, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Seeding

Please don't say it's illegal and not answer my question. I only use torrents for free stuff. I made a torrent and i want to know how to seed it for the first time. Again, don't bash me for asking. --Randoman412 (talk) 02:34, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Randoman412, I don't know why anyone would be bashing or anything. BitTorrent is just a transport protocol and it is 100% legal. To answer your question in just a word, it would be "Depends." If you are using uTorrent, I believe there is an option under file menu to seed your own torrent (other clients should have similar options too). Just be sure that you either use a public tracker and/or ensure that the swarm catches the complete file so that the file continues to be available in case you need to turn off your computer. I am pretty sure you have read BitTorrent and associated articles. Hope that helps, Kushal (talk) 03:23, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
I don't have uTorrent, and i'm using Azureus for torrents. Can you seed with Azureus or was it too late since i uploaded it onto a diffrent tracker? --Randoman412 (talk) 19:34, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Yes, you can seed with Azureus. The Azureus wiki is a good resource- seeding is listed on the FAQ. --—— Gadget850 (Ed) talk - 20:26, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] laptop USB power

I'm trying to get a USB mouse working thats plugged into a PCMCIA usb/firewire combo card . Unfortunately no life from the mouse - i've tried an SD card adaptor and it works ok; mouse works on another computer . Do PCMCIA connections supply a low-current thats not powering the mouse ? Or something else ? Boomshanka (talk) 09:51, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

I am not sure but I don't think that the power sufficient for the sd card reader to function properly is insufficient for a mouse. I agree that the situation is rather strange. We know that both the computer has a functioning usb port (tested using an sd card adapter) and the mouse is working (tested on another computer). The thing that comes to my mind is "Does the computer recognize the Mmouse and can they talk to each other?" If you are on a Microsoft Windows, you could open Device Manager and look for anything that needs attention (with the mouse attached physically prior to booting). You have probably done that already. In that case, please ignore this edit. I am sure other wikipedians will come up with other [hopefully, better] answers. Kushal (talk) 14:50, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
To check, go to control panel/printers and other hardware/mouse/hardware and check if the mouse is listed there; then you can fool around with troubleshoot and/or properties. Gzuckier (talk) 14:57, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Import avi/wmv files into iTunes so works in FrontRow

Hi. I am trying to find a program that will convert or make it possible to add .avi (or dvx) format video so that I can add them to iTunes. The "import" doesn't allow it, and neither does add to library. I assume it will mean converting to an iTunes friendly format so is there anything free out there to do this into an iTunes friendly format. I am a mac-user on a intel-mac using Tiger (I think tiger - the one before the current operating system). Any help greatly welcomed. 14:55, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

ffmpeg can convert files from a bazillion formats though I have found it to be pretty buggy at times (like most open source software). VLC can transcode to and from a bunch of formats as well, but it's also mondo buggy (like, sigh, most open source software). Anyway, what you're looking for is a transcoder to MOV or MP4 format. You're going to lose some file quality while doing so but that's your decision to make. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 15:14, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for the info - will give it a whirl tonight, hoepfully that'll work! Thanks again 194.221.133.226 (talk) 11:31, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Also, MPEG Streamclip can convert AVI to MOV, I believe. I've had better experiences with it in the past than those other programs (it is easier to use, less buggy). --98.217.8.46 (talk) 15:25, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] replacing dell laptop lcd screen

can anyone direct me to an article regarding dell laptop lcd screens breaking for no apparent reason and cost to repair? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kplossl (talk • contribs) 15:36, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Breaking for no apparent reason? Not quite as bad as exploding batteries but if I see it correctly, someone at Dell would beosleepless if this were true. I know that LCD screens can be replaced at home with some some money, some googling, price comparison, an online merchant, and a lot of patience and free time. Kplossl, I don't understand how an lcd screen would spontaneously break. If you are aware of such an incident, could you alert Dell and also write here about it? Kushal (talk) 01:17, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
When I typed replacing a broken lcd screen on a laptop in the search engine, the result was Notebook review1. Google also gave me another website2. The replacement unit should cost you between USD 100 to USD 300. Make sure you equate the cost of a broken lcd screen vs buying a new laptop. A price comparison website will come handy as well. Kushal (talk) 17:38, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] KDE4 Dual Head Display

I have been using my computer's on-board ATI chip with a dual-head SVGA display for a long time. The ati driver no longer supports mergedfb. Instead, xrandr is used - which means that I cannot do dual 1280x1024 display. I can only do dual 1024x768. I'm interested in getting a dual-head AGP board to correct this problem, but I cannot find a dependable page that lists which cards work with Linux without any weird issues. I'm using KDE4 on the latest kernel, so I'm leaning towards an nVidia card. Any suggestions? -- kainaw™ 18:20, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Office Forms Server 2007 with WSS 3.0 without MOSS - Is it possible?

Okay, I'm at my wits end with this. I've searched for this answer everywhere and some places say yes, some say no. If my question was unclear I am asking if it's possible to run the free Windows SharePoint Services 3.0 with Office Forms Server 2007, which I understand to be a separate component of the Office Suite, without having to purchase the grossly expensive Microsoft Office Sharepoint 2007 Enterprise Edition. I am trying to run web-based InfoPath forms and, to my understanding, the Enterprise Edition of Sharepoint is the only one able to do this. --Ouzo (talk) 18:27, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] How can you create your own photoshop filter?

I would like to create a simple photoshop filter, I know it is possible to make a photoshop plugin that you can import, I just have no idea about e.g. what software to use... would notepad be suffiecient? 85.233.178.213 (talk) 21:29, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Here's a good page describing what one needs to do and how. Basically to do a real plug-in you have to know how to program C++, as well as have a good knowledge of bitmap graphics and color theory—not easy stuff, even if what you want to do is "simple" (is it programmatically simple, or conceptually simple? With things like graphics the latter does not equal the former—often what is very easy for a human eye to see or a human mind to imagine is VERY hard to turn into a reliable computation, because machines have nothing like human sight capabilities) In my opinion, you might find it easier to use the Photoshop "Actions" menu which allows you to build basic "macros" out of existing Photoshop commands. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 22:12, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
where would I find the actions menu? I'm using elements 3.0 . I can code in python, would that be useful? I wouldn't know how to refer to the pixels though, since there are no guides for coding a filter... If I could see an example of one it would probably help, I just want to get started by creating one that brightens or darkens an image, I can go from there. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.233.178.213 (talk) 12:08, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Python won't help, I'm afraid, though you can, I think, write plug-ins in GIMP with Python, but that's a whole different program. But if you're game for it, I'm sure it's better documented than writing Photoshop plug-ins, and is totally free (and more powerful than Elements, anyway).
I don't think there is an Action menu in Elements—it's only in the full Photoshop. Sorry... --98.217.8.46 (talk) 16:09, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
I tried to use GIMP but its interface was too clunky, I really can't get used to having a seperate window for the tools, and why the selected colour is in the background while the inactive colour is in the foreground, still, I started followeing a tutorial athough I doubt I will go though with it, thank you anyway... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.233.178.213 (talk) 17:24, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
"why the selected colour is in the background while the inactive colour is in the foreground" I use both Gimp and Photoshop and I have never noticed their behavior. I assume you're talking about the two overlapping square swatches that indicate your current working "foreground" and "background" colors? In both programs the square in 'front' of the other is the foreground. APL (talk) 19:41, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Removing Partition

I have two partitions on my computer. One with windows and one with Ubuntu. How can I format the Ubuntu partition and merge it back with the windows partition. (sorry fanboys) --69.127.64.22 (talk) 21:37, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

I'd recommend using a GParted LiveCD. If the Windows partition is not a system partition, Window's built-in Disk Management should be able to nuke the other partition and then resize the Windows one, but otherwise you'll want something you can launch outside Windows (such as a GParted liveCD) -- Consumed Crustacean (talk) 00:32, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
May I recommend Wubi (Ubuntu) for your next attempt at scaling the Unix-like architecture? Kushal (talk) 01:11, 3 June 2008 (UTC)


[edit] June 3

[edit] Internet Problems Following Failed Ubuntu Installation

Hello, I'm having problems accessing the internet which are pretty strange to me. Here's the situation:

I attempted to install an 8.04 Ubuntu release using a CD and got a short ways into the installation before I got a few error messages and a lot of lagging. I already knew my system only had a little under 256 mb of memory when more was generally required, and I was going to install Xubuntu instead so I didn't give it much thought. I unfortunately did a hard reset (which I know is always a stupid idea, but I couldn't get the system to pause or close by combinations of escape and other keys) and tried to start up Windows. This was generally fine except for Windows asking to check the disk, which I allowed. This also went fine, but there was some message following the 3rd step that I couldn't really follow because it closed quickly.

When I signed back on to my account, all my files were in order but the internet was, and still is, acting up. I'm pretty sure I can access sites without a problem- given enough time. As I type this the icons for different buttons are still loading, and internet browsing in general seems to be rather slow to work. At first it was, strangely, only Wikipedia that didn't load. In fact, quite a few sites are still rather quick to load, but others just hang for a long time almost without rhyme or reason.

My real question is, what could a hard reset during the attempt at installation (I should note that I chose to install Ubuntu without changing the existing configuration) mess up that would leave internet access, files, and the like, while slowing down only certain sites at certain times? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.54.42.126 (talk) 00:53, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Request for more informationHow are you connected to the Internet? Dial-up? Ethernet Cable? DSL? Wi-Fi? Are you a poweruser (admin) on Windows? Are you sure it is the Internet connection, and not the web browser, that is acting strangely? AFAIK, if you are not a poweruser and some of your browser files accidentally got corrupted during a hard boot, Windows XP SP2 would not allow the browser (most probably, Mozilla Firefox) to set it correctly. Of course, I could be off a tangent with the question, too. Kushal (talk) 01:09, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Sorry that I wasn't specific:

1) I have a cable connection and I'm using a router, but it hasn't been changed at all by the setup, and a computer in another room actually seems to be fine.

2) I'm pretty sure it isn't the web browser (Firefox) because I tried accessing sites on Internet Explorer, too.

3) Someone in my house said it might be a system settings problem too, which I'm starting to think it is. I tried to quickly fix the internet connection by doing a Windows repair but nothing changed...

Is there any way I would be able to figure out the source of the problem and fix it? On another note, when I tried to access this page to edit it I opened another tab, assuming that it might load faster. When the page in fact loaded, both of the windows reached the website at the same time. Could this mean that the internet is working in bursts or something?

Also, I am connected to an instant messaging program with absolutely no problems. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.54.42.126 (talk) 01:20, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

As far as I know, Internet access always works in bursts. Kushal (talk) 03:59, 3 June 2008 (UTC) Are you a poweruser (or administrator) on your computer? Kushal (talk) 04:01, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] IPhone or IPod touch?

I'm not sure if this is the right section but anyway... I'm thinking on getting either and Iphone or an Ipod touch. Which one do you think I should get?

The Iphone has more app. (like the phone, camera ect.) but, the Ipod touch is faster, cheaper and comes with more memory. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.66.12.129 (talk) 02:09, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

If you want a phone, consider the iPhone, otherwise the iPod Touch. Or just get a Razr or some other cheap/decent phone and a Touch. Or whatever your heart desires. Though some might criticize the Touch's low capacity, I know one guy who loves his. It fits more than a day's worth of music anyways, you just need to swap it out every once in awhile (and if you had a particularly huge collection you would be doing this anyways) -- Consumed Crustacean (talk) 03:02, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
I wonder if a 3G (HSDPA or otherwise) iPhone with 16 GB or more storage capacity is coming this July. I agree with Consumed Crustacean. If you do not want a phone, save the money that you would spend on a phone. If you need a phone and not an iPod, get yourself a phone. Before you decide the iPod Touch over the iPhone, make sure you understand that there are certain things that current generation iPod Touch devices can never do (and that do not seem to matter yet, vibration may be one of them). There are many rumors, and according to one, you might get an iPhone for as little as USD 200.00 as an initial payment.
Oh, by the way, have you heard of Android (mobile device platform)? maybe that could be your next phone in two years time after you get your iPhone 2 this fall? Kushal (talk) 03:57, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] What to learn next in programing

I've been on and off with programming - a little PHP and HTML, and some Perl from a while back - like loops, variables, functions. I worked a lot with Visual Basic and access, and I know a good amount of how do use: databases, OO programming(with VB- easy stuff), using IDEs, and well, basic stuff in VB). A couple of weeks back, I picked up PHP again, and I've learned quite a bit with PHP/MySQL: arrays, function, databases, post/get, cookies, date, and file manipulation. I was considering on taking up a project with PHP and MySQL, but I've been having second thoughts about it, because It's a really time consuming one, requiring AJAX (javascript + php - really a pain to use), which might teach me a lot about AJAX, but I don't think it would teach me things any deeper than I know already.

So, I'm at the point in programming where I feel that I could do a lot of things in a programming language (using tons of reference), but I'm not sure exactly what to learn/pursue next, however, if it makes sense.

So, I have a couple of questions, if you don't mind (sorry to make it so long!):

1) Would I still be considered "new" to programming based on the stuff I learned?
2) Should I drop my PHP project, and learn other stuff?
3) Is it bad to be skipping from programming language to programming language?
4) What should I learn next (Java/C++/Python, etc.)?
Thanks!
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.62.238.80 (talk) 04:46, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

It is more a software design approach than straight programming, but I would suggest learning UML and Design Patterns if you haven't (doing both together would probably be a good combination, but start with the basics of UML to help make sense of Design Patterns). Using them to design your Javascript -> PHP -> SQL project would be a great help and a perfect learning experience in my opinion. And as far as the actual programming goes, I wouldn't say jumping between languages is a bad thing as long as it doesn't confuse you too badly, so that'll have to be your call. --Prestidigitator (talk) 05:52, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

If you're interested in doing more with web programming, Django is a beautiful system based on Python, which itself is a nice language to learn. Django is object-oriented and deeply integrated with SQL, and it has some modules that do AJAX for you, so this could solve your PHP woes. Of course, there's also the ever-popular Ruby on Rails for that purpose -- it has more AJAX magic, but I've been burned by its inconsistency.

It's also never a bad thing to skip from one programming language to another -- it will eventually let you spend more of your brainpower on general, useful programming patterns and less on the mundane specifics of each language. On that note, if you want to become really good at programming, you could try a language that's very different than the ones you've learned, to expand your repertoire. A functional language such as LISP or Scheme would do well for that purpose. (I was almost going to suggest Haskell, but I realized that it is frankly a difficult, mind-bending language, and would be prone to making you give up and return to the comfort of PHP or VB.)

Finally, here are some good programming books that you can read online for free:

rspeer / ɹəədsɹ 09:47, 3 June 2008 (UTC)\

Thanks for your replies! So, I'm wondering which language to move onto. C++, Java, or Python. I'm not really sure. I liked the "How to think like a computer programmer", but i was thinking about doing Java/C++ also. Would you reccomend OO/GUI programming for me? I'll be sure to check out some of the other links everyone has posted. Thanks again.
At the risk of being a bit too opinionated and starting a Wiki flame war, I'd say there's currently no reason to learn C++ unless you have to work with other people's C++ code. It's a language that tries to do everything with nothing, and ends up just doing everything in confusingly idiosyncratic ways. For example, C++ was designed to add the object-oriented paradigm to C, but we have a much better understanding of object-oriented design now than when C++ was created, so its templates and pointers look and feel positively hackish now. C++ will bite you in unexpected ways, because it has so many unexpected things in its specifications, which themselves fill a 1500-page book.
Java is fine. It's a very practical language, especially for the business world. It's the most portable of any of the languages you've mentioned, so if you want to write things for other people to run on all kinds of computer systems, it would probably be your best choice. But I have also found that it makes some aspects of programming quite dull. You may find yourself typing the same lines of boilerplate over and over and generally feeling like a corporate drone.
So, if you're programming on your own terms, I would definitely recommend Python out of those three. Python can be very intuitive to learn and fun to use, and once you've learned it, you can also learn Django and start making web applications with it. rspeer / ɹəədsɹ 22:20, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Just to step in here, I agree with the above, but I'd put Java above Python. Depends a lot on what you want to do, but Java sticks to the c-type syntax that PHP uses (which makes the syntax easier, at least), and will force you to learn OO. OO is one of those big steps you really need to pass through in order to get good skills at software design. Python uses it, but Java insists. :) We teach Java, and my argument is that we don't teach it because Java itself is a good language (it is ok, but there are better languages) but because of what it forces you to learn and because of its application. Get some better OO design skills, and your Python/PHP/.Net etc programming will leap ahead. :) But, as Rspeer mentioned, Java is a hoop you should jump through for professional programming, while Python is better for hackers and others who want to code on their own terms, and is a beautiful language in its own right (noting that Python is used professionally, but not to the level that Java is). I'd add that knowing some C or C++ will help career-wise, but depending on where you want to go it might not be essential. - Bilby (talk) 04:05, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Ok. Thanks! Between Scheme and Lisp, what do you recommend I learn? Are there any good IDEs/interpreters worth noting for either of them? I now plan on learning Python(most probably), along with Lisp or Scheme (basically, any low level languages), to get some experience with it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Legolas52 (talk • contribs) 23:16, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Ultimately, you will probably want to turn your talents into a career. I suggest you take a look at some IT recruitment websites and see what programming language skills employers are looking for. Astronaut (talk) 01:00, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Scheme is more modern than LISP, and DrScheme is a good interpreter for it. But neither Scheme or Lisp would typically be considered low level, as in running things on the bare hardware, since modern computer hardware is really designed for C-like languages. So if you want to squeeze raw speed out of your programs, you probably want to know some C eventually. (Using C and Python together can be a particularly powerful way to program.) I recommended Scheme because it's useful to see a different perspective on programming -- Scheme is based on a paradigm where the fundamental unit is the function rather than the command. rspeer / ɹəədsɹ 03:03, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
The only thing I had to use Scheme for was a course based on recursion. Other than that, I've almost forgotten about it. I'm not sure I'd recommend it myself though, because although it is very good for some things, it's also a very small slice of the whole, imho. --Wirbelwindヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 03:49, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Go for the theory: The art of computer programming.GoingOnTracks (talk) 23:04, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Python sockets - sending from a specific IP address

I'd like to send some data in Python from a specific IP address, but want to let Python automatically choose a port to send from (because I could have many of these running at once). This is what I have so far - this sends from the IP address fine:

from socket import *
s = socket( AF_INET, SOCK_STREAM )
s.bind(( 'x.x.x.2', 2020 ))               # Sending data from a specific IP address, using a specific high port
s.connect(( 'example.com', 80 ))
s.send( 'GET / HTTP/1.1\r\nHost: example.com\r\n\r\n' )
while True:
        d = s.recv(100)
        if d:
                print d
        else:
                break

But if I bind with an IP address only with s.bind(( 'x.x.x.2' )) it sends it from the default IP address (x.x.x.1), not the one I specify. Is there any way of automatically allocating an IP address but not a port a port but not an IP address? --h2g2bob (talk) 11:02, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Just like in straight C sockets, binding to port zero means "choose a port for me": s.bind(( 'x.x.x.2', 0 )) --Sean 13:37, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
When I do that, it goes back to the default IP address too :( Is there any way to fix the IP address but have the port allocated automatically? --h2g2bob (talk) 14:53, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
It works for me on my Linux machine, using the following server and client scripts to verify what IP the client is coming from:
# Server:
from socket import *
s = socket( AF_INET, SOCK_STREAM )
s.bind(( '10.2.1.148', 9001 ))
s.listen(5)
print "Waiting for clients ..."
while True:
        cli = s.accept()
        print "Got client:",
        print cli
 
 
# Client:
from socket import *
 
server_ip  = '10.2.1.148'
 
client_ip1 = '10.2.1.148'
sock1 = socket( AF_INET, SOCK_STREAM )
sock1.bind(( client_ip1, 0 ))
sock1.connect(( server_ip, 9001 ))
 
client_ip2 = '192.168.2.1'
sock2 = socket( AF_INET, SOCK_STREAM )
sock2.bind(( client_ip2, 0 ))
sock2.connect(( server_ip, 9001 ))
 
# Running gives:
# Waiting for clients ...
# Got client: (<socket._socketobject object at 0x4037a2d4>, ('10.2.1.148', 60709))
# Got client: (<socket._socketobject object at 0x4037ee8c>, ('192.168.2.1', 60710))
If it doesn't work for you, I'd suspect something wrong with your underlying sockets implementation. What system are you on? --Sean 19:25, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
P.S., the following C client will do the same thing as the Python one above. If it does not set your client interface correctly, your sockets implementation is borked:
#include <sys/types.h>
#include <sys/socket.h>
#include <netinet/in.h>
#include <arpa/inet.h>
#include <stdio.h>
#include <stdlib.h>
#include <unistd.h>
 
#define die() do { perror("error"); abort(); } while (0)
 
int main()
{
    char *client_ip = "192.168.2.1";
    char *server_ip = "10.2.1.148";
 
    int fd = socket(PF_INET, SOCK_STREAM, 0);
    if (fd < 0)
        die();
 
    struct sockaddr_in server = { .sin_family = AF_INET,
                                  .sin_port = htons(9000) };
 
    if (inet_pton(AF_INET, server_ip, (void *)&server.sin_addr) < 1)
        die();
 
    struct sockaddr_in client = { .sin_family = AF_INET,
                                  .sin_port = htons(0) };
 
    if (inet_pton(AF_INET, client_ip, (void *)&client.sin_addr) < 1)
        die();
 
    if (bind(fd, (const struct sockaddr*)&client, sizeof(client)) != 0)
        die();
 
    if (connect(fd, (struct sockaddr*)&server, sizeof(server)) != 0)
        die();
    return 0;
}

[edit] Amazon

Why doesn't Amazon have an Australian version? Interactive Fiction Expert/Talk to me 11:49, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

maybe they are waiting for a strategic partner like you who sees long-term value in the online merchant beyond the fact that Amazon has not been able to generate a lot of profit since the dot com bust. No kidding. 67.173.249.88 (talk) 13:42, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Your comment doesn't make sense. Amazon.com was unprofitable during the dot-com boom, and only became profitable after the bust. -- Coneslayer (talk) 14:45, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Amazon.com is profitable? Sign me up for 100 shares! Just kidding, Amazon.com's cumulative profits continue to remain negative. There is a lot of long-term value in Amazon, I agree. Many people idolize its customer service and Amazon Prime is a great idea. I also agree that the future looks bright for Amazon. Amazon Prime in Australia would probably make as much sense as it would in a small town in Wyoming. I don't care what happened during the dot com boom. Anything that happens in a crazy boom, stays in the crazy boom. :) Kushal (talk) 17:25, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
I think I'm using "profitable" in the most common way, considering a year (or a quarter, etc.) at a time. This is how it's used in our article, and in this sense, Amazon is profitable, and General Motors is not. While you certainly can integrate over the lifetime of the company, I don't think that's how most people define profit or loss. The impact of Amazon's past losses would be reflected in its outstanding debt. -- Coneslayer (talk) 19:26, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Coneslayer, I think we can agree that in a few years, Amazon could be "profitable" from either point of view. Kushal (talk) 23:28, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

I can fully appreciate why you would like to see an Aussie Amazon; the postage from the UK or USA is quite high. My friends in Oz, will order books, etc and have them sent to my place here in the UK. I them post them on, in exchange for them getting me something from home (eg boxes of Cherry Ripes) or often Australian releases of DVDs are way ahead of those that come out in the UK and are often superior. I have obtained a full set of CountDown DVDs this way.--80.176.225.249 (talk) 19:28, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Does that mean Amazon.com overcharges for shipping for its downunder customers? 80, is it cheaper for your friends to have you ship it to them instead of have Amazon ship it directly? I thought it was something that only the cheapskates at the auction website did that. If this is true, it is very sad. I thought Amazon.com tried to do things right. :( Kushal (talk) 23:26, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
It may be that by going through a friend you avoid declaring the item's proper value or avoid paying tariffs in some other way. APL (talk) 01:38, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
You will always get cheaper postage from amazon.co.uk to the UK than to Australia. Sometimes I can post items to Australia cheaper than amazon. For instance, it you purchase a talking book, amazon will charge you a book rate rather than a CD rate. Also, I can mark the item "gift" and wrap it in pretty paper which removes tariffs. Finally, I can get things from home (Oz) that I can't get here in the UK. Everyone wins, apart from the taxman! --80.176.225.249 (talk) 23:14, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
I thought book rates are cheap. Huh. I think I need to look at the postal service's list of fees. Kushal (talk) 00:22, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Matlab Question !

In Matlab How to save and retrieve a multidimensional array from a text file? --203.199.213.67 (talk) 13:51, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

According to this and this, it would be something like:
multi_array = cat(3, [2 8; 0 5], [1 3; 7 9])
save my_data.out multi_array -ASCII
to save it, and:
multi_array_again = load('my_data.out','-ascii')
to load it back in. --Sean 14:33, 3 June 2008 (UTC)


When i tried what you gave i got the following error -

Warning: Attempt to write an unsupported data type to an ASCII file. Variable 'multi_array' not written to file

I tried it without -ascii i got the following error while loading the file.

??? Error using ==> load Number of columns on line 2 of ASCII file <filename> must be the same as previous lines. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.199.213.67 (talk) 06:35, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Yahoo mail

I use Yahoo mail, and also subscribe to the en.wp mailing list. The problem is, the mailing list is ass-trociously huge and I get ~7 e-mails a day from the list. I usually end up moving them all to a designated folder, but surely there must be an easier way to do this. Can I automatically move all e-mails with subject X or sender X to a certain folder? Ziggy Sawdust 16:36, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Yahoo! Mail has a filtering feature that does what you want. In Yahoo! Mail Classic, filter configuration is under Options -> Mail Options -> Management -> Filters. --71.162.242.23 (talk) 17:05, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
The thing is, I tried that before and then all wikien-l messages didn't get through at all. Ziggy Sawdust 18:01, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Maybe, just to give it a try, please add a new filtering criterion. Maybe the subject line? Maybe the sender domain? Do you have Yahoo! Plus? Kushal (talk) 23:22, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
You said that no WikiEN-l message got through at all. What filtering rule did you use? --71.162.233.13 (talk) 12:45, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Populous: The Beginning demo install error

I recently tried to install the above program and got the following message: "An error occurred during the move data process: -1" I googled the message, and came up with a bunch of different sites discussing similar errors, only every site listed a three digit number, instead of a just -1. I checked my temp files and hard drive space as suggested, and both have room to spare. Any help? Thanks in advance for your efforts. You may reply here or on my talk page. --AtTheAbyss (talk) 16:59, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

The number is usually an error code, that the program spews out if something goes wrong. The programmer can then debug by looking up what the code means. (e.g. ran out of hard disk space, etc) -1 sounds like a generic 'unknown error', though, so it isn't helpful. I can't really think of any advice than the usual. Run a scandisk? Make sure everything else is switched off? Check the place you are installing to, and delete anything left in it?--Fangz (talk) 22:47, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
I've tried the above ideas to no avail. Thanks for the effort.--136.247.76.213 (talk) 04:09, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] IP address of sender in google group

Hi, I am a part of a google group.. Is there a way to trace the ip address of another member of google group who has replied to a posted message on google group?? If yes , how?? Its important for me to know somehow..... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.132.3.7 (talk) 17:24, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

No. You don't get the actual sender's IP info in the message. At most, you get the email address the sender is claiming to be using - which may or may not be true. Google purposely masks that information and you'll have to take Google to court to force them to hand over the IP address. Even then, it will likely be a dynamic IP that doesn't belong to the user anymore after you go through all that trouble. -- kainaw™ 19:40, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
If I understand correctly, then many "Google groups" are just mirrors of usenet. If someone has posted to usenet directly, the message headers may contain some usefull information, if not an exact IP address. APL (talk) 19:44, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
even then, what if the user in question is using proxy or something like Tor? If you think the person is genuine, please write to him/her/them/it directly. If you suspect malice, expect that they have taken steps to hide themselves from you. Kainaw, if Google were to give up personally identifiable information without a fight, we would not have a template that lets us search Google like {{Google|this}}. Kushal (talk) 23:14, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] AT&T early termination

If I have a wireless plan with AT&T for about six months and I have to cancel my contract, I will need to pay the early termination fee and any monthly fee due. However, do I need to return my cell phone? I am pretty sure I don't have to. Please let me know if you have been in such a situation. Kushal (talk) 17:58, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

That depends on what kind of an agreement you have made with AT&T. Did you lease the phone from them? What does it say in the paper you presumably signed when you signed up for the plan? Really, all you need to do is call up their customer service and ask them, they can undoubtedly tell you how it works. -- Captain Disdain (talk) 18:17, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Thanks a lot. I dialed 6-1-1. It appears that all I need to do is to call them on the day I want to have the service canceled and tell them to IMMEDIATELY cancel the contract. The representative said that my contract would then be canceled. I would not need to return anything. My bill would show the early termination fee and the prorated monthly fees. Kushal (talk) 18:29, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Versace typeface

What typeface is the word "VERSACE" in this image written in? Also could you please give me instructions on how to download the typeface and apply it to Windows Live Messenger --Hadseys 21:32, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

It's Radiant URW T Bold. I'm pretty sure that fonts applied to Windows Live Messenger conversations only show up on the other end if the other person has it installed too (so if the other person doesn't have Radiant they'll see Arial or some other font). — Matt Eason (Talk • Contribs) 15:37, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
(could also be Radiant RR Bold - they're very similar faces) — Matt Eason (Talk • Contribs) 15:39, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Doesn't seem like it's Radian RR Bold. If you look closely at the letter "E" in that font, you'll notice that the horizontal lines are slightly tapered. They don't seem to be in the image the OP pointed to. --71.162.233.13 (talk) 13:01, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Well spotted. It's probably Radiant URW then. — Matt Eason (Talk • Contribs) 13:41, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] iTunes: flag mp3 as audiobook?

Is there a way to tell iTunes 7 that an arbitrary mp3 file is an audiobook and should be classified in the library as such? I've at least tagged it as "remember playback position" and have it filed as "books and spoken", but iTunes still sorts it as music. Only Google references I've found have been for legacy versions of iTunes. — Lomn 22:39, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, for MP4 files, you could change the extension to .m4b (the default is .m4a) and re-add them to library. But MP3 files are of different format, so renaming them to .m4b probably won't work. But you can convert your MP3s to MP4. --grawity 12:04, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Google Pages

Hello. Can a website master implement RSS Feeds into a Google Page website? Thanks in advance. --Mayfare (talk) 23:52, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't know why you cannot. You have a fairly good access to the underlying html code. I think it is very possible. I need to do more research to find out how to do it, though. Kushal (talk) 00:18, 5 June 2008 (UTC)


[edit] June 4

[edit] MediaWiki Page Protection

Suppose that there are three users 'Alex', 'Bob' and 'Chad' whose user pages are 'User:Alex', 'User:Bob' and 'User:Chad' respectively. Is there any way to configure MediaWiki such that only Alex can edit the page User:Alex, only Bob can edit the page User:Bob and only Chad can edit the page User:Chad? That is, no one can edit a user page except the user who owns the user page. As I know, users in some group have rights to protect/unprotect arbitrary page but it doesn't work for the case I described. Does MediaWiki provide such advanced protection? Or any extension available? Thanks! - Justin545 (talk) 02:08, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

The extension UserPageEditProtection ([63]) does that —Dvyjones (t • c) 20:16, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] opengl crash

Hey I started off opengl programming recently but I got a crash in my first program itself -

glClear( GL_COLOR_BUFFER_BIT | GL_DEPTH_BUFFER_BIT);

Commenting this line makes another crash at glFlush(). I have already created a render context and activated it using wglMakeCurrent() which returns a TRUE. I have also set the clear color to black and clear depth 1.0. Please help. 59.93.175.90 (talk) 05:43, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

It would be nice to have the code you are trying to use. Leeboyge (talk) 08:03, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] I have a question in ADVANCED COMPUTER ARCHITECTURE.

MY QUESTION IS : (1) EXPLAIN DIFFERENT PAGE REPLACEMENT POLICIES WITH EXAMPLE. (2) WHAT IS BLACKPANE BUS SYSTEM? (3) WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A LINEAR PIPE LINE PROCESSOR & NON-LINEAR PIPE LINE PROCESSOR? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.98.57.143 (talk) 06:05, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Sounds like homework. You will find some relevant information in the following articles: page replacement algorithm,backplane (note spelling !), pipeline (computing), instruction pipeline. And please do not type everything in capital letters. Gandalf61 (talk) 10:08, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] ScanDisk

In Windows XP, why doesn't ScanDisk pop up when you turn on your computer after improperly shutting it down? Interactive Fiction Expert/Talk to me 06:23, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

See journaling file system. NTFS is journaled. FAT isn't, and Scandisk probably will still pop up for FAT partitions. -- BenRG (talk) 09:19, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Australia ripped off with internet.

I've heard from people visiting here in Australia that in their countries they pay a flat rental fee for broadband access, whereas we pay more money the more we download. I'm fairly new on the internet, but I remember using it a few years ago and it wasn't like that here. It seems to go against the whole idea of the web - it's as if you had to pay more to a public library the more you visited it, even if you didn't borrow a book! Not very progressive, especially for children of struggling families. My question is: Is it true that Australia is unusual in this way, and how did it happen? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikwot (talk • contribs) 07:45, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Here in the UK Many people have a bandwidth limit on their broadband connection. I used to pay £18 a month for broadband and that got me 20gb of transfer activity. I could have paid £25 a month for 'unlimited' bandwidth, or £13 for 5gb. Obviously the package gives different users different price points. Almost all providers work on this same sort of system of either a set monthly bandwidth or unlimited amount. On old dial-up connections we used to pay a per minutes-online price (like a phonecall) but that's pretty much gone these days with broadband takeup in the UK being so high. Your way may be the same, or it may be that you pay $2 per GB or something - which would be similar and perhaps (for many consumers) actually a better deal. I'd be surprised if you can't get the same setup in Oz as you do in the UK (and vice-versa) - I guess there's a large number of providers to choose between? 194.221.133.226 (talk) 10:18, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Nobody gets truly unlimited bandwidth. You pay for bandwidth. In an "unlimited" plan, you are actually limited by the maximum bandwidth of the connection. To get a higher bandwidth connection, you have to pay more. Using your library example, you pay more for more just the same. If you want a tiny truck with a handful of books that parks down by the grocery story to be your library, your taxes to support it will be minimal. If you demand a four-story marble building with every book, movie, and music album ever made and a coffee shop and a cafe and a large supply of high-bandwidth internet connections... you will pay a lot more in taxes to support it. -- kainaw™ 12:23, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Then there is the advertisers concept of unlimited broadband with a "reasonable use policy", i.e. it is unlimited but you are not allowed to use more than a certain amount! -- Q Chris (talk) 07:25, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
This is normally related to how far you are away from a world tier 1 ISP and also how monopolistic your local tier 1 telecomms provider is. It is also normally related to the policies and ethics (yeah right) of your Government Department of Communications. Here in South Africa we get royally ripped off; we pay among the highest rates in the world. It is due to our government-owned "Telkom" owning the local infrastructure as well as the lease on the undersea cable running across the Atlantic to AT&T infrastructure in New York (I think). Sure, other providers own satellite portions but they still have to pay Telkom for something (like upload bandwidth) down the line. Our government has the moronic policy of not allowing foreign competition to Telkom. There has only been one competitive tender awarded in the last (forever) years, and they (Neotel) are at the mercy of Telkom too. Unbundling the local loop has been pushed forward to 2012. The minister owns shares in some comms companies. It goes on and on, and who suffers? We the consumer, while Telkom shareholders smile. Yet there could have been a simple policy to subsidize bandwidth in our developing country, where education for the masses is sorely needed. Not to mention business growth and innovation. Do the politicians care? Line their own pockets, and to hell with their comrades, where just over a decade ago they were all in the fight against apartheid. Sorry for the bleak comments but this is reality over here. And, you are not alone in your gripes against the high cost of bandwidth. Sandman30s (talk) 19:32, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Australia's pipe out to the rest of the world is pretty damn narrow, which doesn't help prices, and much of the infrastructure is owned by one company. -- Consumed Crustacean (talk) 22:08, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
When I first started using the internet the pipe from Australia was 256K, and guess what, international access was sluggish. Nowdays one user would not be satisfied that that for themselves. A 9600bps permanent link cost several thousand dollars per year. It has improved. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 12:08, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Mac G4 question

Will my Mac G4 be enough to run Sonar 4 or do I have to get more sonar applications? Will I need two computers or is one sufficient? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.57.94.131 (talk) 09:06, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't see Sonar as being a Mac compatible program. --70.167.58.6 (talk) 20:46, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Perl regexp

This is pretty close the first thing I have ever tried to do with Perl so it might be obvious, but with

 $str =~ /<li><a href="(.*)" class="option" title="([^"]*)"/;
 print "Option 1: $2\nAddress 1: $1\n";

what should I do if the $str can contain more than 1 match for the expression? --212.149.217.163 (talk) 11:02, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

As written it will just match the first one. You can also do:
while ($str =~ /<li><a href="([^"]*)" class="option" title="([^"]*)"/g)
{
    print "Option 1: $2\nAddress 1: $1\n";
}
to get them all (note the 'g' modifier at the end). Note that you want to do the '[^"]*' thing rather than '.*', or you could get a single match starting at the first 'href="' and ending at the last one. --Sean 13:01, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] PROJECT TOPICS

I NEED SOME INFO ON TOPICS FOR A FINAL YEAR PROJECT.ASAP!!!IM STUDYING COMPUTER SCIENCE —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.229.90.43 (talk) 14:38, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Hi. Please don't type in all capital letters, it is perceived as shouting. We'll be happy to pool ideas for you, but you have to give us a little more information about what you in particular are studying, what languages you know, what type of school this is, what the requirements for the project are. Realize that everyone on this desk comes from a wide variety of educational backgrounds, countries, etc., and your idea of what it means for a "final year project" might be something totally different than ours. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 15:22, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Here is a list of enhancements people want to the software that runs this wonderful website. Choose one of a suitable scope for your time and abilities, do a great job implementing it, get an A, and be a Wiki Hero! --Sean 16:10, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
If you are looking for a programming project, how about developing an AI for strategy games. Start with 3x3 noughts and crosses - very simple case. Then generalise to 4x4, 5x5 noughts and crossses, 3-d noughts and crosses, Connect 4, draughts/checkers, Reversi/Othello or even, if you are really ambitious, Thud. Plenty of scope for many projects there, and lots of fun too. Gandalf61 (talk) 16:28, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Looking for a special image applet

Hi, is there an applet that I can add to a website, that will let me add captions to the images, and show a new random image everytime the page is refreshed? Thanks in advance, Kreachure (talk) 15:05, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

You can do this very easily with Javascript (better than an applet).
Here's some sample HTML page that demonstrates an easy way to do this:
<html>
<script language="javascript">
<!--
var filenames = new Array (); //image filenames
var captions = new Array (); //captions

filenames[0] = "image1.png"; 
captions[0] = "This is image #1.";
filenames[1] = "image2.png"; 
captions[1] = "This is image #2.";
filenames[2] = "image3.png"; 
captions[2] = "This is image #3.";

function loadimage() {
        var new_index = Math.floor(Math.random() * filenames.length);
        document.getElementById("img_filename").src = filenames[new_index];
        document.getElementById("img_filename").title = captions[new_index];
        document.getElementById("img_filename").alt = captions[new_index];
        document.getElementById("img_caption").innerHTML = captions[new_index];
}

-->
</script>

<body onload="loadimage()">

<div style="float: right; text-align: center; border: 1px solid black; padding: 5px;">
<img id="img_filename" src="image1.png" border=1 alt="This is image #1." title="This is image #1.">
<br>
<span id="img_caption">
This is image #1.
</span>
</div>

</body>
</html>
So what are we doing here? First we have a javascript block that creates two arrays (collections of items), one full of image filepaths and the other full of captions. Make sure the array indices are numbered sequentially from 0 onward as I have done above (from 0 to 2 in this example). In the HTML, we have one of the images and captions displayed by default (it will be displayed even if Javascript is disabled). In the BODY tag of the HTML, in the ONLOAD attribute we have a reference to a function that will pick one of the images in that array of filenames at random and then replace the default image and caption on the page with the information from the array. (It finds the image and caption in the HTML based on their ID attributes, so make sure you take note of what those are). It also changes the ALT and TITLE tags of the IMG element to the caption.
I put the image and caption in a DIV element (with some CSS applied to it) just so you can see an easy way of adding captions using just HTML/CSS. The image and caption will be surrounded by a black line in this example and is made to "float" on the right side of the page but that is not mandatory.
Make sense? It should be pretty easy to modify as you might need it. Let me (or others here) know if you have any questions about it. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 19:30, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Um, holy crap? :) Thanks, I'll see what happens with this. Kreachure (talk) 19:47, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] bash script

Is there a way to run a fragment of code for each line in a given file?

eg for i in $(each line of foo.txt) do ... done

Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.110.174.74 (talk) 15:09, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Try something like this:
while read i ; do
    ...
done < foo.txt
(untested, sorry) -- Coneslayer (talk) 15:18, 4 June 2008 (UTC)


This works:
$ cat /etc/passwd | while read; do echo "The line is ($REPLY)"; done
The line is (root:x:0:0:root:/root:/bin/bash)
The line is (daemon:x:1:1:daemon:/usr/sbin:/bin/sh)
The line is (bin:x:2:2:bin:/bin:/bin/sh)
The line is (sys:x:3:3:sys:/dev:/bin/sh)
...
--Sean 16:23, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Some software needed

I'd like to ask for a few recommendations. I need a couple of software for 1) converting .wma, .m4a (and some other Apple formats) and mp3 (and some other formats) files, like Easy CD-DA extractor 2) shutting down my pc automatically (freeware would be ok), 3) something that can be substituted for Peer Guardian (I don't why, it often crashes!), and 4) something that can download everything of a web site, like Teleport Pro.

I hope I haven't exhausted the list yet. :)--61.92.239.42 (talk) 16:27, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

audacity, scheduled tasks and %windir%\system32\shutdown.exe, ProtoWall, DownThemAll! .froth. (talk) 17:18, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Awesome. You surely deserve a barnstar for this one, Froth! Kushal (talk) 01:06, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] annoying high pitched sound

Please help. I have annoying high pitched sound coming from my computer speakers and headphones. It only there when I use hard drive with Serial ATA. When I use AT Attachment it not there. But I only now have Serial ATA hard drive with windows on so I get the noise all time. Nothing rids me of it, I tryed volume controller and it only go when I mute sound but then I no hear my music. How can I make it go away? Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.75.156.95 (talk) 19:45, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't know if this will help, but usually when I have seen that problem, it is the "line in" channel that gives the problem. Muting that channel usually solves the problem. Leeboyge (talk) 07:59, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Script for X-chat

Hi there. I use X-Chat Aqua 0.16.0 on Mac OS X running 10.5.3. I put the script in ~/.xchat2, quit and restarted X-Chat, but no love when people send a wikified link to the channel. Might anyone be able to assist? I also tried loading it as a plug in and got syntax error messages. Thanks. P.S. Might you be able to reply on my talk page as well as here? Sincerely, Bstone (talk) 20:51, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] replacing the MOD function

I am using the MOD function to decode each primary color value of pixels which are stored as base 256 bit integers by adding using the following formulas:

color_integer = blue_integer x 256^2 + green integer x 256^1 + red_integer * 256^0.

The primary colors are decoded using the MOD function as follows:

First pixel:

r = pixel1  Mod tf6
g = (pixel1  \ tf6) Mod tf6
b = (pixel1  \ tf6d) Mod tf6

Second pixel:

R2 = pixel2  Mod tf6
G2 = (pixel2  \ tf6) Mod tf6
B2 = (pixel2  \ tf6d) Mod tf6


The difference in primary color values is then compared with a tolerance value for each primary color using the following formulas:

rc = Abs(r - R2) - Tolerance 
gc = Abs(g - G2) - Tolerance 
bc = Abs(b - B2) - Tolerance

A decision is then be made based on a positive or negative value resulting for each primary color.

My question is whether I can use logic functions instead of the MOD function to get the same results? -- Taxa (talk) 22:23, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

In C, you could do:
r =  pixel1 &     0xFF;
g = (pixel1 &   0xFF00) >>  8;
b = (pixel1 & 0xFF0000) >> 16;
(It took me a moment to realize you're using tf6 = 256 and tf6d = 65536.) --Bavi H (talk) 23:55, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
I added some parentheses above. And just to clarify, & is a bitwise and, >> is a logical right shift. --Bavi H (talk) 01:05, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Seems like VB6 does allow something similar but its 3 times slower....

j = Hex(i)
b = Val("&h" & MidB(j, 1, 4))
c = Val("&h" & MidB(j, 5, 4))
d = Val("&h" & MidB(j, 9, 4))

-- Taxa (talk) 05:14, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Another way may be to redefine the variable as an array of bytes and then access it as an array element. This is easy to do in C. I have no idea about VB6. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 05:21, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
VB6 only offers the HEX function to convert an integer to a byte string. -- Taxa (talk) 10:10, 5 June 2008 (UTC)


translation of the C code to VB would be
r = pixel1 and $FF
g = (pixel1 and $FF00) shr 8
b = (pixel1 and $FF0000) shr 16
Although the VB6 AND function will process and convert and integer value (pixel1) and a hexadecimal value (&hFF) the only way to do a bitwise shift is by using the leftb, rightb or midb functions. -- Taxa (talk) 17:22, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Will work in VB-v2008 but is 1/3rd slower than using the MOD function. -- Taxa (talk) 23:29, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] software for speakers-to-mic

Does anyone know of a software that will take any incoming sound that is playing on my speakers and play it on my microphone? i.e., people that play music on Ventrilo music channels must have something like this software. Thanks, 75.66.58.122 (talk) 22:37, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Audacity has a Preferences > Software Playthrough "(Play new track while recording it)", that's what I usually use, but there's certainly other ways. --Underpants (talk) 23:11, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Thanks. 75.66.58.122 (talk) 20:38, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Font containing Sogdian and Middle Persian glyphs

Does anyone know of a font that contains glyphs for the six characters in the Syriac Unicode block for Sogdian and Persian? Specifically, these are the characters U+072D, U+072E, U+072F, U+074D, U+074E and U+074F. -- Gareth Hughes (talk) 22:47, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] June 5

[edit] Windows Vista or DOS?

Hello. I was considering replacing my operating system. I have narrowed it down to two choices: Windows Vista Ultimate and MS-DOS, version 1.0. Which is the better choice? Thanks.--O4irtj (talk) 01:29, 5 June 2008 (UTC)


Go with Linux, sir. You can't go wrong! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Duomillia (talk • contribs) 01:30, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
What is Linux?--O4irtj (talk) 01:33, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Here you go, it's the best of both worlds! --antilivedT | C | G 06:14, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
To answer the original question, which is best depends on hardware and requirements. -- Q Chris (talk) 07:22, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
I think it's safe to assume that the original post is a joke of some sort, but I'm not sure what the point is. If it is that Vista has a bucketload of issues, then yeah, we know. But I'd bet so did MS-DOS in its first version, and it is clearly inadequate for most forms of modern computing. Even if the OP insists on a minimalistic, no-nonsense platform, I'm sure there are much better possibilities (MS-DOS 6.22 comes to mind, as well as Unix-like command-line builds). Ultimately, the joke is on the OP, since he allegedly "narrowed it down to two choices" without really being aware of the possibilities (e.g. Linux, the BSDs) and ignoring those he probably knows (Windows XP, Mac OS). -- Meni Rosenfeld (talk) 08:08, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the replies. That "Linux" Duomillia mentioned looked good, so I decided on the first version that I could find: Slackware. So, I installed it and it's working like a charm! I ported all of my Windows applications over to it. I never knew that I could be so productive. Thanks again guys.--O4irtj (talk) 08:30, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

I was considering this (DOS or XP) on an old computer with no working hard drive, but a working floppy, DOS started looking attractive. Is there a linux that can boot off a 1.44 meg floppy on a PC? Graeme Bartlett (talk) 12:13, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Coyote Linux. BTW- I have MS-DOS 3.3 on a 5¼ floppy. --—— Gadget850 (Ed) talk - 12:20, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
The OP found a hyperdrive across the learning curve and got productive in using Slackware Linux (GNU/Linux) in seven hours and a minute [my bad, cut that down to less than six hours and fifty seven minutes] from not even knowing what it meant. I want to recommend that the OP for the Guinness Book of World Records. (jk) Kushal (talk) 13:42, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Sniff, sniff, I smell troll. Sandman30s (talk) 14:00, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
At best he's looking back through rose-tinted glasses: DOS version 1 is dire. Forget all the nice features you get in cmd.exe - command history, concurrent pipes, even tab completion. Hardware support is through the impossibly difficult config.sys; sound cards are problematic and hard drives use FAT12. Security and networking are non-existent. --h2g2bob (talk) 22:25, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
??? MS-DOS is a disk operating system, not a hardware abstraction layer. Why would it provide sound support? That's the job of applications that need sound. Config.sys and autoexec.bat aren't too hard to work with, unless you're trying to fit a great many TSRs in while still leaving enough conventional memory for large applications. Security is only a concern if you're running a multi-user system or if you're running server applications, neither of which you're likely to be doing on MS-DOS 1. I admit the lack of support for FAT-16 and network drives is a problem, as it also makes CD-ROM support impossible.
MS-DOS was designed around the philosophy of "get out of the way and let the application do what it wants", as opposed to the managed environments of modern operating systems. --Carnildo (talk) 20:14, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Way to track info of person viewing the web page

Is there any way to track the information (location or ip address ) of the person visiting my homepage ? If yes, how? I have learned that there is a way to keep track of number of persons visiting the homepage.But don't no if the other thing is possible.... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.132.250.10 (talk) 04:30, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes, there are ways of tracking the ip/location of visitors. I can't tell you how exactly, but people have already written code that does just that. A simple google search gave this, this and this. Leeboyge (talk) 07:55, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
If you want really nice and pretty statistics, Google Analytics is a lot of fun and easy to use. It can draw a whole map of the world and show you how many visitors come from what country, what pages they look at, how they find your page in the first place, etc. For my own use I installed BBClone on my server (need to have PHP on the server), which is a simple little way to look at individual users (shows you how they get to the page, where they go on the site, etc.). It's harder to use and set up than Google Analytics, though. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 14:06, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
If you are running your own server, yes: look at your server logs. If your page is hosted by someone else, then it entirely depends what facilities your host makes available to you. --ColinFine (talk) 21:26, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Google

I dislike Google's new feature: when you enter a phrase with quotes and if there are no results, it just shows the quoteless results. How can I turn this feature off? Interactive Fiction Expert/Talk to me 23:20, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Your observation that "it just shows the quoteless results" is not accurate. It displays a warning icon and a message indicating that the search returned no results. The unquoted results are displayed below the warning message. I do not know of any way to turn it off. -- kainaw™ 00:58, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
I don't think you can turn it off. Google says it did not find the results you wanted and tried its best to come up with the results that seemed most relevant. Kushal (talk) 15:29, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
A possible workaround is to append something like -madeupwordthatgetsnohits1234dfsdsdtgdc to your query; it shouldn't affect the results (assuming the word you pick doesn't get any hits, which this one of course will as soon as Google next indexes this page), but it confuses Google enough that it won't automatically remove the quotes even if there are no hits. —Ilmari Karonen (talk) 04:20, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
madeupwordthatgetsnohits1234dfsdsdtgdc does not give any results ... so far. Kushal (talk) 03:56, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
However since the reference desk is indexed it does now Nil Einne (talk) 13:54, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
You could also try adding a trivial word like a or the to get much the same effect, so long as your target pages contain any reasonable English text. A silly but more reliable workaround is to use the OR operator: "foo bar" OR "foo bar". --Tardis (talk) 20:10, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Please just tell me how to turn this feature off. The -madeupword strategy is silly - how am I supposed to know that there will be no results until after my first try? And the "this" or "this" one - it don't work neither. Please help me turn the frigging feature off - I don't need "help" finding results with those words "scattered" across the page. Interactive Fiction Expert/Talk to me 11:17, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

What makes you believe that the Google developers answer questions here? This is a reference desk. The answer to your question is not in Google's online instructions. Therefore, nobody here can provide a reference to the answer. The answer you seek is at Google. You have two sane choices: Stop using Google or call Google and try to find someone there to give you an answer. You have many insane choices, such as demanding that people who don't know the answer give it to you. -- kainaw™ 12:03, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Try the Google Web Search forum at http://groups.google.com/group/Google_Web_Search_Help --—— Gadget850 (Ed) talk - 12:09, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
How DARE you personally attack me!?
  • "What makes you believe that the Google developers answer questions here?" I believe nothing of the sort.
  • "This is a reference desk." Yes, and just about anything can be asked here, except maybe questions whose answers no RD users know. As far as I know, this is no such question.
  • "Therefore, nobody here can provide a reference to the answer." As above, maybe one person can.
  • "You have two sane choices: Stop using Google or call Google and try to find someone there to give you an answer." 1. Google is the most recognisable search engine. No way are you stopping me from using it. 2. What is Google's phone number? Besides, since I'm from Australia, it'll probably cost heaps to call Google. And I'm 15 years old, for God's sake. I'm not the type who is supposed to talk to a bunch of high adults.
Unless you do not want to use a proprietary protocol that probably has security holes the size of football fields, you can use Skype to call Google's 1-800 number. (Maybe Goog411 will help you find Google's number.) However, I don't think you can get an answer to your question on the phone. Kushal (talk) 13:36, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
"High adults"? Is the implication here that Google employees are all stoners that answer their phones high? This is an amusing, but unlikely image. APL (talk) 15:50, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
  • "You have many insane choices, such as demanding that people who don't know the answer give it to you." As above, I'm not addressing anyone in particular, just hoping that there is someone here who does know the answer.
Interactive Fiction Expert/Talk to me 12:35, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Both of you— please stop. Either someone will come up with an answer or the question will go unanswered. --—— Gadget850 (Ed) talk - 12:38, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Out of curiosity, why is this feature a problem anyway? As it tells you it's done the quoteless search, what possible harm does it do? ~ mazca talk 14:07, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
I hate to admit to agreeing with IFE, but this 'feature' bugs me too. I often don't notice the warning. (Who reads the text before the results?) Since I sometimes google for something just to see if it exists, this is very slightly annoying. Nothing to get angry about though. APL (talk) 15:50, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
You'll need to substantiate your claim that my suggestion (the "this" OR "this" one) doesn't work, because I have evidence that it does (as of this writing). Perhaps you didn't know that (unlike search terms) Google's "OR" operator is case-sensitive? I gave it in the correct case in my suggestion. For that matter, my "trivial word" suggestion also seems to work. Please realize that I would not have suggested these things if I hadn't already tested them myself; I wouldn't need to speculate about the behavior of a publicly available service. I also fixed your quote of the previous post to be legible. --Tardis (talk) 15:19, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
This is a handy trick. I notice that it also works when the first string is a null string. (Compare "" OR "The anyone Encyclopedia" "" OR "The Free Encyclopedia" "The Anyone Encyclopedia" ) I may have to look into modifying my Firefox search box so that it always does that when I search for something quoted. APL (talk) 15:50, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
You don't even need the quotes: OR "The anyone encyclopedia". Algebraist 15:57, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
From Google's suggestion that you use "OR" as an operator when you send that search, I surmise that you're actually using my other trick of including a trivial word. I realize now that Google actually entirely ignores those words; you can use "+or" to require such a tiny word, but it's hard to even find an example where that changes anything. But that's good: the trivial-word trick will thus never hurt you (by missing a page that happens to lack the addition). --Tardis (talk) 17:07, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
It seems like you're absolutely right. I just edited line 43 of the XML file for Firefox's google widget to say <Param name="q" value="the+{searchTerms}"/> instead of <Param name="q" value="{searchTerms}"/>. Now this won't ever bug me again. If IF Expert uses Firefox I recommend that he do the same. Thank you, Tardis. APL (talk) 19:59, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Unfortunately, I don't use Firefox. I use Internet Explorer. Interactive Fiction Expert/Talk to me 09:55, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Join & split videos

I need a good free or open-source application to join and split video files, mostly AVI format. At work, I use Adobe Premiere on occasion, but this is a home project and I don't need anything that heavyweight. --—— Gadget850 (Ed) talk - 11:50, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

You might try VirtualDub, but it's a bit weak for any sort of editing. APL (talk) 13:43, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
It seems that I cannot import more than one video at a time in VirtualDub. Any ideas? Kushal (talk) 19:03, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
I've honestly found Quicktime Pro to be the best tool for quicky little video editing like splicing together files, removing bits, etc. It's not free or open source but it's cheap. There are number of open source NLEs but I've never been able to get any of them to work at all to the degree that would be useful for me. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 00:51, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Threading on talk pages

Why doesn't MediaWiki have any better system to auto-indent discussions on talk pages? It's easy enough to prefix a paragraph with a colon, but counting out four or five colons in threaded discussions gets tedious. You can outdent, but you might not want to, and if you do you should probably indicate such to show that your comment is meant to be nested under another one. Am I missing something? It seems like a button could be added to the toolbar or some such to indent your comment under the one above. Fletcher (talk) 14:26, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

I think questions like that are better suited for WP:Village Pump, but when I am writing an extremely indented reply, I just highlight the colons from the prior section and copy/paste them to the start of my reply, then add a single colon. --LarryMac | Talk 15:15, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
The Wiki format is not primarily intended as a "discussion forum"; here on Wikipedia we use it extensively as one, with talk pages, ref desks, etc. Unfortunately this secondary use has some usability issues (as compared to, say, PHPBB, which is far less versatile but makes for cleaner messageboarding). Perhaps you could discuss or contribute to the MediaWiki development platform? Nimur (talk) 15:45, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
A threaded system is probably the best solution, see mw:Extension:LiquidThreads, although I believe there's opposition to it. x42bn6 Talk Mess 20:32, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Best solution... for what? "If ain't (that) broke, don't (try to) fix it." The beauty of the Wiki system is that we can fix someone else's indents if we did so want to, or do something totally different, or whatever. Structured systems (including hardcoded threading) will just lead to inflexibility. (And do we really need just another Javascript button on the already cluttered and frankly useless toolbar? It would be simple to write a function that would just add a hard return and indent one more than the previous, but how many people would think to even look for it, much less use it?) To me the idea of adding hardcoded threading sounds like a programmer's idea of what is "best", not necessarily a user's solution. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 22:58, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
I have to agree with 98 on this one. Kushal (talk) 19:12, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
See the universal problem solving flowchart (BTW, as an aside, where did that thing first come from, and does it deserve an article?). --Prestidigitator (talk) 19:51, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Can't map network drive

When I try to map my who.hasfiles account to a network drive (in Windows XP Pro, SP2), I get this error:

The drive could not be mapped because no network was found.

What should I do? By the way, it worked just fine before I reinstalled Windows. (Reason for reinstall was corrupted %windir%\system32\config\system file, if you're interested.) Do I need to install an update or something? --grawity 17:51, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Addition: While trying to add the folder as a "network place", I get:

The folder you entered does not appear to be valid.  Please choose another.

The "official" mapper tool says:

Cannot map the storage. Wrong name and password, or network problems.

No proxy set in Internet Explorer (7). (Which can access the site just fine, by the way.) --grawity 18:00, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Addition: Windows eXPee inside a VirtualPC does exactly the same. I even tried disabling the firewall (KIS 7), nothing changed. HALP! --grawity 18:15, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Okay, so it sounds like after you reinstalled Windows, your network drive doesn't work anymore. Does this sound about right?
Also, are you saying that from Internet Explorer, you can access the computer that the network drive is on?
Finally, can you ping the other computer? (Start->Run->cmd->ping the-other-computer's-name) Indeterminate (talk) 22:49, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Sort of. The "network drive" is my who.hasfiles.com account, [64], which I try to map using WebDAV. It's not on the LAN.
I can open the account ([65]) with Firefox 3 (rc2), Opera 9.5, Internet Exploder 7, telnet and netcat. And I can ping it. But I can't mount it as a network drive in Windows Explorer.
In case you didn't understand it yet, I try to connect over the Internet using WebDAV, not over LAN. You can sign up at who.hasfiles and try it yourself. (Free account = 100 MB space.)
By the way, I installed XP SP3 -> no change.
--grawity 10:59, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Addition: I can't even map http://127.0.0.1 (nc -vvlp 80 shows no signs of activity). I can connect to \\think\* (think is my computer's name), but that's all.
Addition: D'oh. net start webclient. Add the "resolved" template. --grawity 11:14, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Booting an Intel MacBook from a USB drive

Is it possible to boot an Intel MacBook from a USB drive if the drive is made bootable? If so, how does one doing so without first booting into OS X? --213.140.21.227 (talk) 23:08, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

It is not an important question at the moment. However, I do have some questions. How would you make the flash drive bootable? and so on. Once these issues have been resolved, we can work out the details (maybe press option when booting?). I wish I could be of more help. I will try to do some googling and let you know. boot from USB drive on an Intel mac Kushal (talk) 19:17, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Ted Landau posted a note at MacFixIt about booting Leopard from a USB flash drive [66], but it looks like it's no longer available to nonsubscribers. If I remember right, he found that it'll boot normally from a system installed on a flash drive provided the drive is at least 8GB; smaller than that, it refuses to recognize the drive as bootable. Also, I seem to remember that the first generation of MacBooks didn't support booting from USB (although this might've been changed by subsequent firmware updates).
As for how to boot from the drive: hold the Option key as you power the MacBook on; this this will select the firmware's Startup Manager [67][68], which gives you a list of bootable volumes to select from. Speaker to Lampposts (talk) 06:24, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] A script that searches out and responds to certain elements in a website?

Hi all. I'm only medium in the field of programming, but I was wondering if anyone could give me some resources, or some terminology to search for in, say, google, about a script that would:

  • Go to a website
  • Search out (in its source code, preferably), certain sections of text, ie words or phrases.
  • Depending on what they were, would then act accordingly.

Just for an example, say a webpage contained the word "fuck", then the script could create a frame that says "This website uses profanity." Or if a website is an e-book, with a certain page number, it could search through the text until it finds, say, "Page: 34" and then, in a frame, print out the links for page 33 and page 35 accordingly. Just examples, so you can figure out what I'm trying to ask here.

Again, any ready-made scripts (the simpler to understand and experiment with, the better) would be best, but also any resources towards learning how to do so, or terminology for such scripts so that I can search out and learn at leisure (my current searches are failing horribly) would be great!

Also, please do not direct me to Greasemonkey -- that is a third-party software, and requires firefox. I was thinking there could be something internet-based (ie, php, javascript or whatever), or something downloadable that would do it, not an extension of a piece of software that requires a certain internet browser.

Much help appreciated ! -=- Xhin -=- (talk) 23:42, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, I'm not quite sure what you want, but my best guess is that you mean you want to intercept all outgoing web connections and add stuff to each page, depending on the content in it. Personally, I would probably use a proxy like squid (software) with perl to manipulate the text. For an idea of what I'm talking about, take a look at this [69]. If you're using Windows, you might be able to find caching web proxy software that will let you manipulate the html, but I don't know of any off the top of my head. Indeterminate (talk) 00:55, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
There has been a lot of work on querying web pages, such as WebSQL and Twig Queries. The goal is to create a simple syntax for querying content in web pages and performing proper functions, such as making a list of items or creating a new web page of results. In my opinion, the current work simply stinks. I was forced (in college) to study and implement many forms of this web querying thing. What I found was that all the existing methods were developed by math majors, not computer majors. So, while mathematically sound, they were not designed with a working knowledge of computers. In the end, they look pretty on paper but aren't worth the effort to implement. I'm considering describing a better standard for a thesis - a simple mix of standard SQL, RegEx, and HTML/XML. Since all three are already standard, users won't have to learn something weird. If you know all three, it wouldn't be hard to use. For example, if you know SQL and RegEx, you can already figure out what the following "web query" does: "select dob, count(*) as cnt from google:"john lennon birthday" where dob=/[0-9]{1,2}\/[0-9]{1,2}\/[0-9]{4}/ order by cnt desc limit 3" -- kainaw™ 02:49, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
From what I understand of what you are asking, you want to get the content for a web page, parse it, and act on any key words found. If you want to get down to the lower level stuff and do it yourself, you will want to look up sockets and the HTTP protocol. This will allow you to request a web page and receive its contents. Most languages have support for sockets, PERL being one of the easiest to use. If you don't want to do this yourself, you could probably find a package that would do the request for you. Leeboyge (talk) 05:19, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] June 6

[edit] Best website builder?

I'm disapointed that the article on website builders is so short and brief. Couldnt there be a comparison of website builder software, as with other software? I do not know how to do this myself. Website builders include: BlueVoda Piczo Moonfruit mobi Web Piston and others.

And what is the best free website builder that does not tie you in to a host please? 80.2.205.84 (talk) 00:04, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

It sounds like you know enough to improve that article. Please go ahead! But do make sure that everything you put in it is referenced, not original research. (Hint: if it makes any attempt to say what is the 'best', it's probably OR. If it quotes several published sources as saying that something is the best, then it is not OR) --ColinFine (talk) 21:40, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] USB flash drives

±—Can the average USB flash drive hold more

than 80 billion characters?

63.3.12.2 (talk) 02:41, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

A character is easily stored in one byte. A gigabyte can easily store 1 billion bytes, regardless of if you are using the real definition or the marketing definition of "gigabyte". To store 80 billion bytes (characters), you need 80 gigabytes. There are many USB flash drives that are over 80 gigabytes. They aren't those tiny ones you can slip in your pocket though. -- kainaw™ 02:54, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Really? Where are there USB flash drives that can hold over 80 gigabytes? (Were you thinking about USB hard drives, most of which are not flash based.) And for nitpicking, 80 billion characters is technically 74.51 gigabytes cause of the whole 1024 thing, and that's only if you don't use multi-byte characters. But short answer is, no. (Addendum) Of course, this is not taking into consideration compression either. --Wirbelwindヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 03:18, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
This one is about 10 GB short (using the above 74.51 number), but is actually a "USB flash drive". Chris M. (talk) 03:40, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
kainaw has already specifically addressed the 1024 issue. I don't really agree with the way he addressed it, though - Gigabyte is ambiguous in common usage, and according to this, 109 (which I believe is the "marketing" definition) is the correct definition. -- Meni Rosenfeld (talk) 08:25, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
What kind of characters, and can we use compression? --Prestidigitator (talk) 19:54, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Assuming standard English text and a decent compression algorithm, you should be able to store 80 billion characters on a 20-GB flash drive: Data compression#Comparative. --Carnildo (talk) 20:20, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] PDMan98

I recently Came across this peculiar error while packaging a vb6 code. The packaging wizard doesnt respond after the step of including certain drivers and when i close it using a task manager, it says microsoft closed this program due to a recursive program PDMan98. What does this mean? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lokthegreat (talk • contribs) 06:22, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Importing MPEG files

Why does the error 'The file C:\Documents and Settings\Owner\My Documents\My Pictures\12-16-2007\20070630200825.mpg cannot be imported because the codec required to play the file is not installed on your computer. If you have already tried to download and install the codec, close and restart Windows Movie Maker, and then try to import the file again.' appear whenever I try to import mpeg files into Windows Movie Maker v2.1? What codec do i need to install? Where to install the codec? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Invisiblebug590 (talk • contribs) 06:55, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

One tool you can use to find out which codec was used for your MPG file is GSpot. Some others are mentioned in the Video codec article. After you have determined what is missing, you can then search for and download it, or you can download and install a client such as VLC media player which comes with a large selection of codecs. --LarryMac | Talk 20:37, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
If that didn't work, you can try these free codecs Sandman30s (talk) 21:22, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Recovery from a CompactFlash card

Yes, I screwed up the content of a 1GB CF card.

Briefly, I plugged the CF card into a Mac (new version of OS X) and selected a pile of photos for copying into a directory on the desktop, but must have mistimed my mouseclicks or something as the swirly icon (Apple's Tibetan replacement for an hourglass?) started up and I waited and waited and waited and waited while I suppose the OS tried to display the whole lot simultaneously. After a very long wait I got a message saying that I shouldn't have unplugged the device (I hadn't unplugged it, and for that matter the access light of the any digicam-card-to-USB-adapter was still on) and a pile of messages each saying that file such-and-such wasn't displayable.

According to Mac OS X, the CF card has retained its previous directory structure but the directory that should have the goodies has a single, zero-byte file, with a gibberish name and dated 1904.

According to Winvista, the CF card has the directory structure and the directory that has the goodies has three files each named "P", two of which are zero-kilobyte and dated 1980, the third 1312KB and not dated at all.

I have access to a Linux machine but I don't suppose that KDE would work miracles. Clearly vital info has been scrambled.

Does either Winvista or Mac or your average Linux distro come with a utility that attempts to rebuild screwed up FAT32 (is it?) filesystems? Is there worthwhile free (speech/beer) software for the job? Whether or not I get anything off this card, should I then bother to reformat it and use it, or does the fact that the access light was on for ages imply that it has been thrashed beyond its reliable life?

Thanks for any tips. These might of course include links to a good discussion somewhere else. (Of course Google is my friend, but I find it hard to google for any practical computer info; there's so much promotion and chitchat and not much disinterested lucidity.)

Incidentally this card is branded "pqi" and was rather cheaper than other brands. Perhaps wrongly, I'd assumed that differences where merely in branding and marketing, and perhaps also in access speed (but only a matter for concern if I took lots of photos in quick succession). Did I make a false economy? Morenoodles (talk) 08:55, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

See PhotoRec. --212.149.217.163 (talk) 09:43, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Yay! Got it, it's working right now on another machine. Thank you! (Can I award "barnstars" here?) Morenoodles (talk) 10:12, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
PS Perfection. The whole lot restored.
This is my kind of software: unpretentious, effective, and free. I vote Christophe Grenier for god. Morenoodles (talk) 10:32, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Windows

Why is Windows 98 more successful than the later and more graphically improved Windows ME? Interactive Fiction Expert/Talk to me 09:23, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Do you mean more commercially successful? If so, I'd guess that rumors of ME's bugginess had something to do with it. Morenoodles (talk) 09:31, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Must admit I never understood this "Windows Me is crap" from everyone else. I used Me for a long while and had very few problems with it, though I do wish I hadn't upgraded to Internet Explorer 6 - now that really was a buggy pile of crap :-) Astronaut (talk) 16:49, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Windows 98 was a huge functional update to Windows 95. Many programs required you upgrade to Windows 98 very shortly after it came out (which is why I stopped using Windows. I refused to buy Windows 98.) Windows ME looked prettier, but I didn't see anyone being forced to upgrade in order to run the latest programs. So, since the upgrade wasn't required, not many people did it. It is kind of strange that the XP-Vista is going the opposite way. People are being told to hold off on Vista because their programs won't run on it. I'm not sure why Microsoft didn't do a "98" again and get all the software to be Vista-dependent, forcing everyone to upgrade. -- kainaw™ 18:12, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Easy. Because, if they did that, everyone would switch to OS X or Ubuntu. It's not like the Windows 98 days, where all the non-geeks used Windows because there were no reasonable alternatives. « Aaron Rotenberg « Talk « 01:58, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
Yep. Wubi makes it so easy to get going with Ubuntu. I did not even update my backups before I went ahead and installed Ubuntu on top of XPSP2 the Wubi way. Kushal (talk) 05:02, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
I experienced the crappiness at first hand. Having pulled the secretary's brand new Windows Me laptop out of its expanded polyester packaging, tossed the "EULA" in the trash, etc., I turned the machine on and then went straight into "Sounds" in order to turn them all off. When I tried to save the new settings, Windows froze. Great start! Morenoodles (talk) 05:28, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] DLL

I am trying to use an emulator. Everytime I try to run the emulator, an error message pops up saying that a DLL file called "burutter" was not found. How can I fix this problem? Interactive Fiction Expert/Talk to me 09:23, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

forums.ngemu.com Morenoodles (talk) 09:37, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
I looked at that very site earlier today and it didn't help at all. Interactive Fiction Expert/Talk to me 09:53, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Perhaps you could say how it didn't help. For a start, have you downloaded the file and put it wherever your particular version of Windows collects DLL files? Morenoodles (talk) 10:01, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Where does it collect DLL files? Interactive Fiction Expert/Talk to me 10:41, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
I don't know. Isn't there some directory of C: called WINDOWS or WINNT or similar? (You might start by saying which version of Windows you're using) Morenoodles (talk) 10:47, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
What version am I using? Are you kidding? Ha! I am using XP! Why do you think I would be using, for instance, 95 or 98? Though I do have to admit I like those old Windows versions better... Interactive Fiction Expert/Talk to me 13:10, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Well, you could be using Vista. The more information you give us, the more quickly we can answer your questions. In your original post, you don't even specify it is Windows—one has to figure that out from the fact that you are using DLLs at all—and you don't bother to tell us the name of the emulator (so we have to figure that one out too). If you put too many hurdles in front of answering the question, it won't get answered. Remember, we don't know you, or your computer, at all. The more information you can give us, the fewer assumptions we have to make. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 14:05, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
He could also still be using 2000,it still has some popularity and is still largely computable with current software. --APL (talk) 03:45, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
Have you tried just downloading the dll and putting it in the ePSXe directory (I'm assuming that's what you use, the anon above me really is correct, more information give the better answers you'll get)? You can find it here, for instance. Put it in the directory of the emulator executable, and see what happens 83.250.202.36 (talk) 16:34, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
You could always search your PC for other DLL files and see where the OS has put them. The error message might give a clue as to where the program is looking for the file. Astronaut (talk) 07:47, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Most DLLs in Windows XP are placed in the C:\WINDOWS\system32 directory. Sometimes application-specific DLLs are also placed in an application's folder (e.g., C:\Program Files\[Application]\[file.dll]).--Hello. I'm new here, but I'm sure I can help out. (talk) 07:54, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Macros in Word documents

Hello all. I've been using a Word template (.dot) that someone created for me ages ago, that contains about fifteen complex macros. I want to start using it on a different project, which means I want to change the header, the footer, a few words on the document, and so on. However, when I change these headers, and save the template as a new template, the macros have all disappeared. How can I edit the template without losing the macros? This is on MS Word 2002. Thanks. Neıl 龱 13:09, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Reparing damaged file: inserting DWORD

I know that I have to do the following (to repair a file):

In the first position a NULL DWORD(4 bytes) is needed.
In the second position two NULL DWORDs are needed.
After I inserted those values Flash 8 opens the file successfully.

But, how can it be done? I have UltraEdit Professional Hex Editor. Do I need other programs? GoingOnTracks (talk) 16:54, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Any hex editor should work. The problem is the instructions: are they asking you to insert four 00 bytes at the first position, or overwrite four bytes at the first position with 00s? Same with the second step: is it inserting eight 00 bytes, or overwriting eight 00 bytes? --Carnildo (talk) 20:29, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Remember to create a backup first :) --h2g2bob (talk) 21:48, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Thank you all so far. Well, when I open the file with a hex editor I get this:

00000000h: D0 CF 11 E0 A1 B1 1A (...); ÐÏ�ࡱ�á
00000010h: 00 (...)

What is the DWORD? Just D? or the ÐÏ�ࡱ�á at the end? Or something else? GoingOnTracks (talk) 13:37, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

In your initial post it was defined as four bytes (Intel and AMD also use this definition), so it is "D0 CF 11 E0". See Hexadecimal. MTM (talk) 15:05, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
To further clarify, a "NULL DWORD" would be a DWORD - 4 bytes - of NULLs, basically binary 0s. So if the "first position" in the instructions is the line you pasted from your Hex Editor, you need to either insert or overwrite 4 bytes with hexadecimal 00 - as Carnildo says, it's not clear which.
So you'd end up with either:
00000000h: 00 00 00 00 A1 B1 1A (...)
or:
00000000h: 00 00 00 00 D0 CF 11 (...)
00000010h: E0 A1 B1 1A 00 (...)
(The text representation on the right-hand side of your Hex Editor is just for reference - if this was a file intended to interpret as text, you'd be able to see it there; what you need to edit is the pairs of hexadecimal digits, each of which represents one byte of the file) - IMSoP (talk) 17:44, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Thank you all!GoingOnTracks (talk) 20:02, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] what speed gear should i use for stick arena and what is the best browser to use for stick arena?

i have vista and i really need one that will work,thanks! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gothmafia (talk • contribs) 17:40, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Is this the XGen Stick Arena we're talking about? If it is, then have you thought about not cheating? As for the second question, If found IE works just fine, but anything else should be just as good. Paragon12321 (talk) 18:56, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Bjarne Stroustrup' name in the list

Why the name of Bjarne Stroustrup was not included? 68.145.74.166 (talk) 18:16, 6 June 2008 (UTC)Raveendran

You're going to have to give us a clue about which list you're talking about. This is the Computing Reference Desk for all of Wikipedia (and beyond). --LarryMac | Talk 18:31, 6 June 2008 (UTC)


[edit] June 7

[edit] The night sky in Gimp

I took a photo of the night sky. But the stars are too faint. How can I use Gimp or ImageMagick Convert to brighten the stars? --Masatran (talk) 00:55, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure if GIMP has it, but in Photoshop, there's a contrast editor and adjust curves (see here). (addendum) And looking around a bit, it seems like GIMP has a curves feature too. See this page too. --Wirbelwindヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 01:01, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
Another method :On the menu for that image click Tools/Color tools/Levels. You'll see a histogram and below That a color line. Try sliding around The Three arrows pointing to The color Line. Especially the middle one. You may want to first use a selection tool To Select The sky. --APL (talk) 03:33, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
You may also want to make the stars appear larger, by blurring or fattening them out a bit. In reality the star surface will be as bright as the sun, but you won't get a monitor that bright! Graeme Bartlett (talk) 22:36, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
Playing around with the tools in the Colors menu. Brightness/contrast may be all you need. It's probably the simplest way to edit a photo while still maintaining its genuineness. --Russoc4 (talk) 01:47, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Power DVD

A DVD that previously played on my laptop now only prompts the message, "A problem has caused Power DVD to stop working correctly. Windows will close the program and notify you if a solution is found." The problem is not the DVD; it works fine on my TV's DVD player and on my sister's laptop. The problem is not my laptop; I got other DVDs to play just fine. The problem is this particular DVD on this particular computer. I can't make any other program play the DVD; they all switch over to Power DVD, which promptly gives me the aforementioned error message and shuts itself down. Any ideas? Cherry Red Toenails (talk) 01:02, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Sounds like PowerDVD might be the problem. Try disabling autoplay if you have it on, if it's automatically opening PowerDVD when you insert the disk. Instead, open some other program like Windows Media Player and playing the DVD from there (in WMP10, you go to the "Play" menu and select "DVD, VCD or CD audio"). --Wirbelwindヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 01:06, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
How do I disable autoplay? That does seem to be happening, because when I open it on WMP, it automatically shuts down and opens up Power DVD. How can I change that? Cherry Red Toenails (talk) 01:41, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
A free, old program called Windows Media Player Classic is really good for playing DVDs that other software won't play. One way to get the classic player (which I have to use to watch the Gilligan's Island seasons on my PC), is to download K-lite Codec Pack. The codec pack is free, just Google it, and the classic player should come with it. Useight (talk) 02:04, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
Thanks, that worked great! Cherry Red Toenails (talk) 02:16, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Palatino font

  1. Where can I get a free copy of Palatino font in TrueType format?
  2. It is classified as serif; what would be a more specific classification?

--Masatran (talk) 02:13, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

It is old style serif. As for locating it... I don't think you can get a (totally legal) free copy of the font called Palatino (but it is often bundled free with operating systems), which is specifically a trademark font name of Linotype systems. There are many look-alike fonts, though. Book Antiqua is a common one. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 02:34, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
The article on Palatino lists some lookalike fonts. You can't get Palatino for free, but you probably have something nearly indistinguishable already on your computer. rspeer / ɹəədsɹ 07:37, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
Windows has Book Antiqua and Palatino Linotype since XP, both in TrueType format. URW Palladio is available freely for non-commercial use in this format at [70] and in Type 1 with GhostScript. A better (more glyphs, better Polish diacritics, small capitals and old style numbers) one is TeX Gyre Pagella in Type 1 or OpenType CFF. Mac OS X probably also has included Palatino lookalike. MTM (talk) 15:10, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] sound card in Ubuntu

Hello dears! I have a problem with my sound card in Ubuntu (all versions)my sound card didnot work it is ESS Audio Drive es1868f I know it is old but how can i make workable it , You people will help me thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.125.143.78 (talk) 06:52, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

If you've tried running alsaconf, what did it say? If not, what have you tried so far? Put more information in your query. --tcsetattr (talk / contribs) 07:54, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
Please excuse us for being terse. You can learn more about alsaconf and the AlsaProject at http://www.alsa-project.org/main/index.php/Main_Page . Please come back if you have any questions. Kushal (talk) 13:41, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Thank you Kushal for the useful link but i am new user of linux and nothing know about tarz files etc i have downloaded the driver in the mentioned link but didnot know how to install it and second after installing alsamixer and running alsamixer as sudo it says(alsamixer: function snd_ctl_open failed for default: No such file or director)and by running alsaconf it says no commond found.so please tell me more what i do next .thanx —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.125.143.75 (talk) 16:25, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

You're doing that the hard way. The driver and the alsaconf program are almost certainly included in Ubuntu (I know they're included in Debian) so you should not have to download anything separately. Just use the package manager to install alsa-utils. --tcsetattr (talk / contribs) 19:53, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
202, tcsetattr is probably right. You should try the package manager (under applications menu). If you cannot find it there (which would be really weird), you can always do apt-get install alsa-utils. Please feel free to hit back with any questions. Kushal (talk) 01:26, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

I am once again here Kushat!i cant find way to configure my sound card and by doing apt-get install alsa-utis it says (E: Could not get lock /var/lib/dpkg/lock - open (11 Resource temporarily unavailable) E: Unable to lock the administration directory (/var/lib/dpkg/), is another process using it?)thanks in advance if you help me more i will be very thankful to you.because i hate windows and this is me usmanzia1 prevously forget my passwd ,sorry —Preceding unsigned comment added by Usmanzia1 (talk • contribs) 11:42, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Welcome back, Usmanzia (sounds more like a person than 202 does) Did you try installing from the graphical user interface (point and click rather than type in terminal). Does the list not show alsa-utils? Lets try this one more time. Please try sudo apt-get install alsa-utils. You will be asked for your root (administrator) password. Just a quick reminder, you should not run any command if you are unsure what it means or if you suspect the source. If you use Internet relay chat, channel Ubuntu on Freenode might be of help too. Kushal (talk) 15:58, 8 June 2008 (UTC)Í

[edit] Creation date

To my horror I discovered too late that by using the file system object in VB6 the original file creation date has been changed to reflect the date when the file was moved or copied to a new location rather than the actual creation date being retained. Is there anywhere in a Windows XP file that the real original creation date is retained? -- Taxa (talk) 08:41, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Both FAT and NTFS filesystems store creation and modification dates only in the file table. (My English isn't creative enough to explain why storing two creation dates would be useless.)
But if it's a Microsoft Office document, the creation date is stored in the metadata, which you can view in the "Summary" tab of file properties. (Click "Advanced >>")
--grawity 10:59, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
Useless? I don't think so. Besides one date would be the actual and original creation date while the other would be the move or the copy date.
Why is this important? If you have a group of video files from several different cameras and want to view them in proper sequence or merge them at the end of the day according to creation date then you are screwed if Windows changes the original creation date when you move or copy the file. In plain English the reason this does not make sense is because the reason net time sync exists is to allow images recorded at different locations to be viewed in their proper sequence or merged accurately. Yet another reason why Windows sucks and Yahoo wants nothing to do with Microsoft. -- Taxa (talk) 16:35, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
Unix does the same. Besides, there's a thing called EXIF, which allows dates (and much more) to be stored inside photos. (JPEG, that is.) --grawity 21:34, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] computer

need tutorials for the following topics

compiler writing tools , sort programs (a software tool) ,merge programs(software tool),iocs —Preceding unsigned comment added by 61.1.232.192 (talk) 13:51, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Some tools useful for parsing are lex and bison. Sorting can be done by sort. Merge is an operation of most version control systems. All of these programs are described in Wikipedia and their articles lead to useful documentation. MTM (talk) 15:14, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Graphics: drop of some liquid

How can I create an image of some drops using graphical programs (like Gimp or Fireworks)?GoingOnTracks (talk) 15:52, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Fedora 9 Live on USB stick

So I finally managed to install Fedora 9 into my USB drive. (The previous version of the Windows tool, 2.4, didn't like my FAT32 formatted drive.)

After messing with Fedora a little (DSL, Firefox), I got "I/O error" while editing ~/.ssh/config with nano. On next try, it said "Read-only filesystem".

After switching to first terminal (tty1), I saw these errors:

EXT3-fs error (device dm-0): ext3_get_inode_loc: unable to read inode block - inode=26305, block=98671
EXT3-fs error (device dm-0): ext3_find_entry: reading directory #82040 offset 0
EXT3-fs error (device dm-0): ext3_find_entry: reading directory #82040 offset 0
EXT3-fs error (device dm-0): ext3_get_inode_loc: unable to read inode block - inode=86808, block=327987
EXT3-fs error (device dm-0): ext3_find_entry: reading directory #141311 offset 0

After reboot, it just dropped me into shell.

Ideas? --grawity 16:29, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] IMDb

Has anyone been able to get through to IMDb.com in the last 24 hours? I keep getting "server not found". Dismas|(talk) 16:40, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Just checked and it works for me. --—— Gadget850 (Ed) talk - 16:44, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
Hmm... Does now for me too. It hadn't for the last day or so. Dismas|(talk) 17:26, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] New computer...architectural scheme?

So my computer is starting to get old, and although it still gets the job done, I'm thinking about getting a new computer. I briefly read through the 32-bit and 64-bit articles and it seems that 64-bit is better, despite having less software compatible with it. Is that assumption true? Also, what does "Platforms : x86-32, x64-64, EM64T...Version : x86/32bit | x64/64bit" mean? Because those are two options for the system I'm considering getting. Thank you for the help! --71.117.39.109 (talk) 19:20, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Unless you intend to use 4GB or more of RAM, the difference is relatively minor. All mainstream contemporary processors support 64-bit, so your choice is only with regards to the OS. This is not really a choice, as there are essentially no disadvantages to 64-bit (32-bit software runs on a 64-bit system; the only possible drawback is if for some reason the 64-bit version of the OS\software is more buggy). 32-bit architectures will have names such as x86 or x86-32. 64-bit architectures will have names such as amd64, x86-64, x64 or EM64T. The phrase you quote is difficult to decipher, if you found it online perhaps you can provide a link. We may be able to help you more if you specify which hardware and OS you are considering. -- Meni Rosenfeld (talk) 19:48, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
ia32 is also seen referring to the 32 bit version. .froth. (talk) 05:12, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
But keep in mind that ia-64 is not the ordinary 64-bit architecture. -- Meni Rosenfeld (talk) 12:37, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] New video card issue

Hi, I just installed a new and improved video card -Geforce 8600 GT - but for some reason now when I play Counter Strike: Source at the optimum resolution the screen looks way different than it did with my old video card... The resolution on my desktop looks great, but now in CS: Source at maximum resolution the graphics seem way bigger/zoomed-in than they were before, and I can't change it to any better resolution. Any reason why this might be? 76.22.123.202 (talk) 20:39, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Maybe it's too obvious, but did you install the Nvidia drivers after putting the new card? If not, any number of things can go wrong. Also, I don't know about the particular game, but many games allow you to choose the zoom level, with the mouse wheel, through a menu or otherwise. Try to see if you can set it to how it was before. -- Meni Rosenfeld (talk) 20:48, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for the response. I did install the drivers and also re-installed the game. I'm honestly perplexed by it, the current highest resolution rate looks like a lower one on my old card in terms of the size of everything - even though the new card is better and my frames per second are better and all the textures look better... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.22.123.202 (talk) 21:01, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
In your Nvidia Control Panel, are your 3D settings set to default or do you have specific settings for CS:Source? Sometimes it's better to keep the default settings. Unless you're a gfx card fundi, let your software decide. If this is not it, then I'm out of ideas. Sometimes an older game will just refuse to work with a newer gfx card. I suspect there might be some older DirectX features that might be omitted or 'disabled' in newer cards. Sandman30s (talk) 21:37, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
Default settings. Directx is up to date. Same issue with a newer game. Changing in-game resolution to my monitor's native resolution makes the graphics look a little better but in terms of size everything seems oversized like it's still at 800x600 instead of 1280x1024...I'm at a complete loss as to what the issue could be. 76.22.123.202 (talk) 02:19, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Sounds like you have an LCD, so setting your game resolution to the same x:y ratio would make it look sharper. However you have a really weird problem there. Try your card on another machine if you can? Sounds like a stuffed up graphics card. Or it could be a conflict with something in windows, very hard to say. I used something called ClearTweak once that made all my OS graphics larger - very annoying. Sandman30s (talk) 07:22, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Come to think of it, sounds more like a problem in your old card than with the new one. It makes sense that the game would want to keep your field of view constant (for balance reasons), with higher resolutions making stuff more detailed rather than smaller. Try once more to find a setting in the game for zoom level or field of vision. If none is found, take comfort in knowing that what you have know is probably what was meant to be. -- Meni Rosenfeld (talk) 10:32, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Developing Flash in Flash 8/9 or with Eclipse

What is the difference between developing Adobe Flash with the Adobe Flash IDE and in Eclipse (software) with the plug-ins? I need to start learning ActionScript 3 and I have the Flash 8 version but don't feel like buying the Flash 9 version. Is Eclipse too much different?GoingOnTracks (talk) 21:10, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

You can compile ActionScript for nothing with the Flex SDK but it's not the same thing as working in Flash (you don't have a timeline, etc.). If you don't need Flash, just use Flex Builder. If you need Flash specific things, like being able to edit Flash files or need to use a stage (e.g. don't want to do everything programatically; in some cases, things like Tweening, fading, etc., are much easier to do as objects on the stage than they are through AS3), then you'll need Flash. So the answer depends, I guess, on what sorts of projects you're going to use it for. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 00:23, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Automatic Update for Windows XP - How to stop it?

I have a very old and very slow laptop which I am using until my other one gets fixed. However, the slowness is exacerbated by the fact that it is getting inundated with Windows Updates. It does it automatically and then asks me to restart. If I click 'later', then 5 minutes later it asks me again. It is very frustrating, and I end up restarting. I do this very reluctantly because it takes a long time to get to a point where the PC is usable again. It has taken me 40 minutes to get from the restart to writing this post. How do I stop these automatic updates? While we are on the subject, how do I stop the ones for Java Script (the most annoying and power consuming programming language ever) and for iTunes, Quicktime and whatever the other one that is bundled with it is? They all require restarting, and I can't be spending hours each day just doing that!--ChokinBako (talk) 22:27, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Start - Control Panel - system - automatic updates - turn off automatic updates (this is for windows). If your computer is so slow it might be best to get rid of quicktime and iTunes running in the background as they will be hogging your memory. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 22:43, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
Javascript itself won't be doing automatic updates, but Java might. Virus scanners will be doing updates too. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 23:14, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
While I sympathize with your problems, it won't do you any good to be running a machine with gaping holes. If you are inclined, we can help you with tweaking your "very old" computer so as to get the most out of it. Kushal (talk) 00:43, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Startup sounds on Windows and KDE

I've been thinking of customizing Windows XP's default sounds such as startup, logout, battery failure, etc by replacing them with sound messages recorded by my girlfriend. I figured it would be much more pleasant to log into my machine and be greeted by her voice than having to put up with that annoying tune.

The issue is this: I want her to say "Good morning", "Good afternoon" and "Good night" according to the time of the day. I could schedule those tasks using the task scheduler and a batch file, but I'd rather find a way to do it differently.

Or rather, I'm fine with Windows, but would like to make some changes to Mandriva Linux (which I use most of the time). I'm running KDE on my machine. I'd like to know if it'd be possible to write a small piece of code (I suppose it'd have to be in Python, because I don't know C) that'd modify whatever part of the system is responsible for setting those events by getting the OS's time and use it to choose the appropriate sound. How does KDE do it? How are events associated with sounds? Sorry for the bizarre question! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.132.220.63 (talk) 22:37, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] finding my post on the RD

What is the easiest way to find my post on the RD? GoingOnTracks (talk) 23:23, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

If it's recent, using the browser's search feature. If it's older, using Google. -- Meni Rosenfeld (talk) 23:26, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
For best results, go to your contributions to find out the exact header, then plug that into a google search. Or just check the date/title in the archives, but google is normally faster. Algebraist 23:56, 7 June 2008 (UTC)


[edit] June 8

[edit] Program to save audio (micro and headphone)

Do you know a free one? GoingOnTracks (talk) 00:25, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Audacity. Its audacious! It is free as in free speech AND as in free beer. It records audio and much more. Cheers, Kushal (talk) 01:19, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Thank you. I'll try it.GoingOnTracks (talk) 02:23, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] awesome mozilla tools

I was checking out stuff like this and this.. I assume these are php apps or something.. where can I download them? .froth. (talk) 02:58, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

The first one is "User Agent Switcher", a Firefox extension. Open [71] and click "Add to Firefox". --grawity 12:28, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Uh no I mean the app that lets you browse the source of packages.. not the package itself. .froth. (talk) 19:05, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Messenger: Personal Messages

Hello. Is there an automatic feature where I can have a personal message when I am signed into Windows Live Messenger (e.g. Hello) and a different one when I am signed out (e.g. I'll respond to your offline message ASAP)? Thanks in advance. --Mayfare (talk) 04:04, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Google

I dislike Google's new feature: when you enter a phrase with quotes and if there are no results, it just shows the quoteless results. How can I turn this feature off? Interactive Fiction Expert/Talk to me 23:20, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Your observation that "it just shows the quoteless results" is not accurate. It displays a warning icon and a message indicating that the search returned no results. The unquoted results are displayed below the warning message. I do not know of any way to turn it off. -- kainaw™ 00:58, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
I don't think you can turn it off. Google says it did not find the results you wanted and tried its best to come up with the results that seemed most relevant. Kushal (talk) 15:29, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
A possible workaround is to append something like -madeupwordthatgetsnohits1234dfsdsdtgdc to your query; it shouldn't affect the results (assuming the word you pick doesn't get any hits, which this one of course will as soon as Google next indexes this page), but it confuses Google enough that it won't automatically remove the quotes even if there are no hits. —Ilmari Karonen (talk) 04:20, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
madeupwordthatgetsnohits1234dfsdsdtgdc does not give any results ... so far. Kushal (talk) 03:56, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
However since the reference desk is indexed it does now Nil Einne (talk) 13:54, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
You could also try adding a trivial word like a or the to get much the same effect, so long as your target pages contain any reasonable English text. A silly but more reliable workaround is to use the OR operator: "foo bar" OR "foo bar". --Tardis (talk) 20:10, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Please just tell me how to turn this feature off. The -madeupword strategy is silly - how am I supposed to know that there will be no results until after my first try? And the "this" or "this" one - it don't work neither. Please help me turn the frigging feature off - I don't need "help" finding results with those words "scattered" across the page. Interactive Fiction Expert/Talk to me 11:17, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

What makes you believe that the Google developers answer questions here? This is a reference desk. The answer to your question is not in Google's online instructions. Therefore, nobody here can provide a reference to the answer. The answer you seek is at Google. You have two sane choices: Stop using Google or call Google and try to find someone there to give you an answer. You have many insane choices, such as demanding that people who don't know the answer give it to you. -- kainaw™ 12:03, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Try the Google Web Search forum at http://groups.google.com/group/Google_Web_Search_Help --—— Gadget850 (Ed) talk - 12:09, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
How DARE you personally attack me!?
  • "What makes you believe that the Google developers answer questions here?" I believe nothing of the sort.
  • "This is a reference desk." Yes, and just about anything can be asked here, except maybe questions whose answers no RD users know. As far as I know, this is no such question.
  • "Therefore, nobody here can provide a reference to the answer." As above, maybe one person can.
  • "You have two sane choices: Stop using Google or call Google and try to find someone there to give you an answer." 1. Google is the most recognisable search engine. No way are you stopping me from using it. 2. What is Google's phone number? Besides, since I'm from Australia, it'll probably cost heaps to call Google. And I'm 15 years old, for God's sake. I'm not the type who is supposed to talk to a bunch of high adults.
Unless you do not want to use a proprietary protocol that probably has security holes the size of football fields, you can use Skype to call Google's 1-800 number. (Maybe Goog411 will help you find Google's number.) However, I don't think you can get an answer to your question on the phone. Kushal (talk) 13:36, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
"High adults"? Is the implication here that Google employees are all stoners that answer their phones high? This is an amusing, but unlikely image. APL (talk) 15:50, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
  • "You have many insane choices, such as demanding that people who don't know the answer give it to you." As above, I'm not addressing anyone in particular, just hoping that there is someone here who does know the answer.
Interactive Fiction Expert/Talk to me 12:35, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Both of you— please stop. Either someone will come up with an answer or the question will go unanswered. --—— Gadget850 (Ed) talk - 12:38, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Out of curiosity, why is this feature a problem anyway? As it tells you it's done the quoteless search, what possible harm does it do? ~ mazca talk 14:07, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
I hate to admit to agreeing with IFE, but this 'feature' bugs me too. I often don't notice the warning. (Who reads the text before the results?) Since I sometimes google for something just to see if it exists, this is very slightly annoying. Nothing to get angry about though. APL (talk) 15:50, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
You'll need to substantiate your claim that my suggestion (the "this" OR "this" one) doesn't work, because I have evidence that it does (as of this writing). Perhaps you didn't know that (unlike search terms) Google's "OR" operator is case-sensitive? I gave it in the correct case in my suggestion. For that matter, my "trivial word" suggestion also seems to work. Please realize that I would not have suggested these things if I hadn't already tested them myself; I wouldn't need to speculate about the behavior of a publicly available service. I also fixed your quote of the previous post to be legible. --Tardis (talk) 15:19, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
This is a handy trick. I notice that it also works when the first string is a null string. (Compare "" OR "The anyone Encyclopedia" "" OR "The Free Encyclopedia" "The Anyone Encyclopedia" ) I may have to look into modifying my Firefox search box so that it always does that when I search for something quoted. APL (talk) 15:50, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
You don't even need the quotes: OR "The anyone encyclopedia". Algebraist 15:57, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
From Google's suggestion that you use "OR" as an operator when you send that search, I surmise that you're actually using my other trick of including a trivial word. I realize now that Google actually entirely ignores those words; you can use "+or" to require such a tiny word, but it's hard to even find an example where that changes anything. But that's good: the trivial-word trick will thus never hurt you (by missing a page that happens to lack the addition). --Tardis (talk) 17:07, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
It seems like you're absolutely right. I just edited line 43 of the XML file for Firefox's google widget to say <Param name="q" value="the+{searchTerms}"/> instead of <Param name="q" value="{searchTerms}"/>. Now this won't ever bug me again. If IF Expert uses Firefox I recommend that he do the same. Thank you, Tardis. APL (talk) 19:59, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Unfortunately, I don't use Firefox. I use Internet Explorer. Interactive Fiction Expert/Talk to me 09:55, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Doing this in IE is really easy. Go to the dropdown menu next to the search box and choose 'find more providers'. Paste http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=TEST+OR+TEST (or whatever method you think works best; I haven't experimented much with those mentioned above) into the url field, give it a name, and click on install. Algebraist 07:45, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] June calendar of events

Respected Sir

I have observed that a very important event like 'World Environment Day' that is observed all over the world is missing from your list of events from June calendar which is published on the right side of your main page.

Kindly ensure such events are covered so that many readers who visit your site will be enlightened.

Please treat this as a suggestion.

Regards

Lion. Dr. Francis P S Rajan —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.93.69.190 (talk) 07:38, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, we do have an article on World Environment Day, and it is in the list of "holidays and observances" at June 5#Holidays and observances. And I think annual events aren't usually featured on the Main Page - it only lists one-off items of international news and significant anniversairies. But there is a discussion page for the Main Page (and a whole lot of suggestion pages linked from that) if you want to raise the issue there. Gandalf61 (talk) 08:33, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
This appears on the Main Page for the 5 June each year, see Wikipedia:Selected_anniversaries/June. --h2g2bob (talk) 17:59, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Why is frequency division used in microprocessors?

We had 8085 in our current semester, where we learnt that even though the uP itself operates on 3MHz, we use a crystal oscillator of 6MHz. This is so that we can divide the latter by two and provide a 50% duty cycle clock which the microprocessor requires. Could someone please explain me this concept in detail? What is the "duty cycle" of a crystal oscillator? If the microprocessor requires a square wave, doesn't it already have 50% "duty cycle"?

Thanks. --RohanDhruva (talk) 09:58, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] TrueCrypt reliability

How reliable are cryptographic programs like TrueCrypt? I mean reliable in the sense that I always be able to access my data, but nobody else. GoingOnTracks (talk) 12:55, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Every chain is as strong as its weakest link. So no program like that is a one-stop solution—you need to be protected from malware, phishing, etc., as well as physical security of the machine, not to mention safe computing habits (not executing unknown code on a regular basis, keeping up with security updates to software and the OS, choosing strong passwords and not using the same one on every site, etc.), or else all the encryption in the world isn't going to mean a thing (just like the biggest, strongest door lock in the world is defeated by a ground-floor window left open).
As for the level of encryption itself—it means the NSA's standards, so it looks pretty reliable to me. But again, that's only one piece of the overall puzzle. At Los Alamos during the Manhattan Project, they had fences, armed guards, help from the FBI and G2, were sited in a remote location, used code-words, compartmentalization of information, etc. etc., and it was all for really nothing because in the end, one high-placed guy had never been properly screened for his security clearance by the British and he walked out the door with everything they came up with and gave it to the Soviets. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 14:56, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Broken WNR834b v1

Hello all,

hopefully one of you can help me: after an odyssey on the Netgear WNR834B v1 router firmwares (original, DD-WRT mini, DD-WRT std, back to original), I cannot access the web pages, I get wrong passwords; but I tried through the standard pwd, mine and the DD-WRT password; even resetting the config with the HW switch was not successful.

88.217.62.34 (talk) 15:08, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] MediaWiki

What does this mean, which is coming up on my wiki:

Database error
A database query syntax error has occurred. This may indicate a bug in the software. The last attempted database query was:

    (SQL query hidden)

from within function "efUpdateCheckUserData". MySQL returned error "1146: Table 'simlandw_wiki.cu_changes' doesn't exist (localhost)".

How do I fix it? StewieGriffin! • Talk Sign 17:55, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Music Programs

It seems Reason is like a more inclusive program, let's say, compared to a Digital audio workstation like Pro Tools. Are there any other programs like Reason, and if so, could you provide a list? My other question is if there are "higher-level" programs", than Reason, as it seems like Reason can do everything Pro Tools can do, and I'm wondering if there are any programs that are "higher-in-level" than Reason, and if so, could you provide a list. Thank you!68.148.164.166 (talk) 18:23, 6 June 2008 (UTC)


I think you need to clarify what 'inclusive' means. If you want software that contains recordings for you and be 'inclusive' then Acid could be good. Ableton has ALOT of options, and Logic can do everything Pro Tools can too. Please clarify inclusive for a more precise answer. 86.140.7.114 (talk) 00:26, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Pro Tools only mixes and records, but Reason mixes, records, reverberates, etc. etc.. That's what I mean by inclusitivity.68.148.164.166 (talk) 18:25, 8 June 2008 (UTC)


Its still not clear what you mean. Pro Tools can add reverberation via plug ins. Are you after the software which does the most things?86.140.7.114 (talk) 19:19, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Time Machine and Airport Extreme

Time Machine didn't initially support backups to Airport Extreme discs, but it does now. Does it backup to both the new "N" generation and the older "g" ones, or just "N"? And do you plug the disc into the ethernet or the USB port in it? Thanks for your help.--78.148.200.171 (talk) 21:18, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Entertainment

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[edit] June 2

[edit] PARADISE LOST THE MOVIE

Hi I just read the paradise lost article and I was wondering why,it hasn`t been adapted in a movie or has there been any attempt to adapt it into a film,personally I think it would make a great motion picture don`t you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.249.145.120 (talk) 02:05, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Oh, but it has been adapted into a film, several times. See John Milton's IMDB entry. I haven't seen any of the films, so I can't say if they're any good, but there they are. In fact, apparently there's a new version in the works, up for release in 2009. -- Captain Disdain (talk) 07:01, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Whoops, spoke too quickly -- most of those are actually concert recordings, not film adaptations. My bad! Still, the 1912 film appears to be an adaptation, as does the upcoming film. -- Captain Disdain (talk) 07:14, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
The wonderful John Collier wrote a screenplay for a Paradise Lost movie, but it was never filmed. It's been published, though (see "Other works" in the article I linked). Deor (talk) 18:58, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Dracula, Werewolf and Frankenstein

Growing up in the 70's, I owned a book and record that had a chilling story about Dracula, Wolfman and Frankenstein. Th plot line was basically about a couple who is lost while traveling and wind up staying at a castle owned by a man who turns out to be Dracula. He is also doing experiments and winds up creating Frankenstein's monster. There is a side plot where the lady gets bitten by a wolf, and becomes a werewolf herself. The story concludes with Dracula, the Werewolf and Frankenstein all fighting in the castle's lab, and the whole place explodes. I have searched everywhere for a copy of this, (Ebay, etc) with no luck. Does anyone know where I can find a copy of this and what the title is? It used to scare me when I was a child but was so fun to read and listen to. 10draftsdeep (talk) 19:33, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

I did quite a bit of searching on this, but to no avail. I am useless. But I still have to say this: "The story concludes with Dracula, the Werewolf and Frankenstein all fighting in the castle's lab, and the whole place explodes." Holy crap. That's awesome. -- Captain Disdain (talk) 08:10, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, I did alot of looking myself with no luck. I remember the cover art being blue/purple and it had all three on the cover.Thanks for trying, I'll find it someday. cheers,10draftsdeep (talk) 12:30, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] TV Show about two nerds living together

My aunt was trying to tell me about a sitcom featuring two nerds living together in an apartment. She also said there was a dumb blonde neighbor. She forgot the name of the show, and I want to know what show it was. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.234.5.193 (talk) 20:33, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

The Big Bang Theory --LarryMac | Talk 20:38, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Or The Odd Couple (TV series) if she's referring to an "older" show. --76.111.32.200 (talk) 17:05, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
I don't agree about "The Odd Couple". Felix was certainly a nerd and a neat freak, but not Oscar, he was a slob. StuRat (talk) 13:09, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
And hey, Penny is not dumb! She's the only main character who's not a physicist, and doesn't contribute to the discussions of comic book superheros, but dumb? Really? Come on. --tcsetattr (talk / contribs) 20:33, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Ohh, come on, she's not the sharpest knife in the drawer. Not that that's a bad thing, but really, she is kinda the stereotypical dumb blonde. I personally like Howard the engineer. Wiring up your apartment with X10s and controlling it from your laptop is totally me :) 83.250.202.36 (talk) 23:05, 5 June 2008 (UTC)


[edit] June 3

[edit] Atonality

Tonality is described as perspective, where, as I know it, perspective is a point of focus, as when you are drawing lines, they all will converge on one point. Is it possible to have atonality, tonality and polytonality, and multitonality?

What I mean is that (I believe), say in the C Major key, have not just the C Major cord the Tonality (or whatever) but have other cords equally tonal (or whatever)? (Of course, this C Major key wouldn't be a C Major key (you know what I mean))

Also, but for multitonality:

The same question, but is it possible to have some chords more tonal (or whatever) than others?68.148.164.166 (talk) 03:38, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Polytonality, yes. Not quite sure what you mean by multitonality, but in a tonal system (let's call it a key) some other keys are more closely related than others. Like, say, in the key of C it is easy to slip into the key of G. It sounds a little odd to me, but it makes sense to say that in the key of C the G chord has more tonal power of its own than most other chords. If this is something in the direction of what you're asking, perhaps take a look at the pages Tonicization, Closely related key, and Modulation (music). Pfly (talk) 04:26, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
What I meant by multitonality:
Ok, think of how I described polytonality with my first post, but instead of have 2 chords coequal (what I mean is that 2 chords are equally strong), 2 chords are equally strong, but a 3 chord is weaker.
Another question, is it possible that:
Chord 5 is 5 times stronger than Chord 1
Chord 4 is 4 times stronger than Chord 1
Chord 3 is 3 times stronger than Chord 1
Chord 2 is 2 times stronger than Chord 1?
And my last question, is it possible that:
Chord 5 is 5 times stronger than Chord 1
Chord 4 is 3.3463634736737 times stronger than Chord 1
Chord 3 is 1+(1/2) times stronger than Chord 1
Chord 2 is \sqrt[12]{2} times stronger than Chord 1?
Thanks!68.148.164.166 (talk) 11:17, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

It sounds a little odd to me, but it makes sense to say that in the key of C the G chord has more tonal power of its own than most other chords.

– Pfly (talk) 04:26, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Oh, and what is tonal power? Thanks.68.148.164.166 (talk) 11:19, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "Unequal"

It is now well-accepted that of the two primary tuning systems in gamelan music, slendro and pelog, only slendro somewhat resembles five-tone equal temperament while pelog is highly unequal; however, Surjodiningrat et al. (1972) has analyzed pelog as a seven-note subset of nine-tone equal temperament.

—http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_temperament#5_and_7_tone_temperaments_in_ethnomusicology

What does "unequal" mean?68.148.164.166 (talk) 11:03, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

As equal temperament is "...a system of tuning in which every pair of adjacent notes has an identical frequency ratio.", I would expect unequal to not include identical ratios between notes. I am not clear on whether this "unequal" refers to the tuning of the notes or simply the way the modes are constructed (using only 5 of the seven possible notes). Since the tuning of gamelans is so variable, I suspect the unequal may refer to the mode construction. Rmhermen (talk) 13:59, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] The Simpsons

How many spoof episodes of the Simpsons have there been that include rehashed numbers from musicals - for instance 'see my vest', &c.? -russ (talk) 17:29, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

All Singing, All Dancing is one. Rmhermen (talk) 18:02, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Well as well as See My Vest (Beauty and the Beast), there's the Sherry Bobbins episode (Mary Poppins ), the episode where Lisa is school president (Evita), the monorail episode (The Music Man), the one where Lisa tutors Cletus' kids (The Sound of Music), the one where Lisa transforms Groundskeeper Willie into a gentleman (My Fair Lady). Those are the only ones that spring to mind, so 6 by my count, although there are lots of songs unrelated to existing musicals.Hawkisgirl (talk) 23:05, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Wheelie bin song

About a year ago on TV I saw an act featuring a line of wheelie bins on stage, music started (sorry I don't know the name of the song), and the performers popped up out of the bins to sing bits of the song. It was hilarious. The song is th same and the effect was similar to this amateur video. Does anyone know the name of the act, or at least the song used? Astronaut (talk) 19:36, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't know the ad, but the song is Mah Nà Mah Nà. It was also seen in Sesame Street, among other things. -- Captain Disdain (talk) 21:17, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Ahh yes, that's the right song. Just to clarify though, it was not an advert but a stage act - part of some kind of variety performance if I recall correctly. Astronaut (talk) 00:43, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Oh, I'm sorry, I have no idea why I thought it was an advert -- perhaps I misread the word "act" as "ad"? Still, glad I could help. -- Captain Disdain (talk) 20:07, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Helena Bonham Carter

Where can I find pictures of her from the film Where Angels Fear to Tread? David Pro (talk) 22:18, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Here. David Pro (talk) 22:33, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Final Fight

Where can I find artwork for this game? David Pro (talk) 22:26, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Here. David Pro (talk) 22:37, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Blu-ray

I was just wondering where could I go to find a list of all blu-ray dvds currently available worldwide? Or is there such a website?Jwking (talk) 22:34, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

The list is growing more quickly every day, so I don't know that anyone could keep up. You can search Amazon.com, though, and get a pretty accurate listing. Just go here for a list of all of them available. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 02:52, 4 June 2008 (UTC)


[edit] June 4

[edit] Missing credit in the article on: Gael García Bernal

Under the film credits of Gael García Bernal, is missing the movie (Spanish) Mala Educacion and listed in another full Wikipedia article under (English) Bad Education.

I would make changes but I do not know how to do this. Can you write the originator/author to do so? —Preceding unsigned comment added by SirvienteBoricua (talk • contribs) 03:50, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Bad Education is already listed under the "Filmography" section of our Gael García Bernal article. Is your complaint that the Spanish translation of the title isn't included ? StuRat (talk) 13:02, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] shortest

Who is the shortest man, woman? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.131.186.19 (talk) 04:40, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

How this falls under "Entertainment", I don't know but you may be interested in List of shortest people. Dismas|(talk) 05:09, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Well, if they are setting up a dwarf bowling contest, that would fall under entertainment. :-) StuRat (talk) 12:52, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Donald Dusck's adress

What's the name where Donald Duck lives? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.205.36.93 (talk) 09:59, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] June 5

[edit] game movies

how can one record a movie on xbox live and put it on youtube? also, on cod4, how can someone get it so their screen is blank to be a cameraman? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.101.1.186 (talk) 02:43, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Would running the output of your Xbox via a DVD recorder enable you to record Xbox Live game action while playing on your TV? If so, then you could rip the resulting DVD to your PC and upload it from there. However, you might well be breaching copyright by doing this. Astronaut (talk) 11:24, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
A popular way to record video/gameplay/movies from an XBox 360 (or any console for that matter) is to use a GameBridge. The company that manufactured them (Adaptec) is no longer doing so, so you'll most likely want to check EBay or a similar auction site for this and other recorders of the same genre. [72] is an example of a high-quality video from Rock Band. --tennisman 05:28, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] ragdoll physics

is there going to be ragdoll physics in the game "skate it" for the wii? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 119.95.128.206 (talk) 02:48, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Old cartoon I can't remember

I'm trying to remember the name of an old cartoon that I used to watch... The problem is that was really obscure and I'm pretty sure it was a special, a short, or a mini series. From what I can remember it was re-telling old fairy tales and the style reminded me of "Squiggle-vision" although it wasn't necessarily that. I am almost positive it was on the Disney Channel, but if it wasn't it was that or Nickelodeon. It was animals not humans. It aired in the 90's some time, and I was so young I can't remember much. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.233.60.132 (talk) 04:02, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Maybe it's listed in List of animated television series? It's arranged by decade so that might help you narrow it down. Somno (talk) 06:23, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
That description could fit many 90's cartoons, especially if it's a special episode you're referring to. But my best guess would be the 'U.S. acres' segments of the Garfield and friends show, where they did a lot of that. Kreachure (talk) 13:58, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] What anime series is this??

I have watched only about 7 minutes of this series, and I want to know what the series is called. It features a pink haired singer (male) falling for another (older) blond singer (also male). There's one episode in which the blond kisses the pink-haired one in an elevator. Anyone recognize this series?? Aanusha Ghosh (talk) 12:20, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

See List of LGBT characters in film, radio, and TV fiction and Ctrl+F "anime". There are quite a few instances of Anime characters in that list. Zain Ebrahim (talk) 08:28, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Gravitation? - the anime series has (recently?) been dubbed into English for distribution in the USA by Right Stuf International. Here is a link to their official Gravitation homepage, which includes a video trailer. Astronaut (talk) 11:33, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

It is Gravitation! Thanks so much!!! Aanusha Ghosh (talk) 12:20, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Strawberry letter 23

Where could I find the track of this song where the beginning of the song is "Shalom my love" instead of "Hello my love" ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.4.238.111 (talk) 10:52, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Fly by night?

I used to watch a cartoon that had Balloo from the jungle book, who ran a delivery company, that I think was called Fly by night. Does any one know what this was called.

TaleSpin-- Mad031683 (talk) 16:23, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] http://www.newgrounds.com/audio/#

I was wondering if there are other sites that allow you to download free music. I don't want those websites that ask for your email. And please provide a complete and full list, thanks!68.148.164.166 (talk) 16:39, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

The answer, is yes there is other sites, that give out "free" music. However I am not sure if we can list links to them as they may potentially be a form of Copyright infringement. NanohaA'sYuriTalk, My master 23:24, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Corollary to Sturgeon's Law

Sturgeon's Law states that 90% of everything is crap. Can it be inferred from this that 10% of everything is not crap? (This would be useful to know, e.g., when picking through novels or CDs in a bargain bin.) NeonMerlin 19:10, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

I would say that given the possibility that the law holds true and in the context of CD shopping, one must consider that not all "crap" is equal. In that, not every CD in that 90% category will be of the same "crap" quality. Some will be worse than others. Some will have no good songs, some will have one, etc. Which leads us to define the credentials for the 10%..a CD in which every or almost every song is superior? Interesting thoughts..I may just go CD shopping and grab 10 random discs without looking....I'll let you know. :) 10draftsdeep (talk) 19:17, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

I've noticed that 90% of TV shows are crap and 90% of the remaining 10% are also crap. Maybe the same sort of thing works in CDs? Matt Deres (talk) 20:11, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Logically it can be inferred the remaining 10% are not crap, or else Sturgeon's law is an underestimate. Except of course the "law" is just an adage, not a law of nature, and the actual reality depends on how you want to define crap, and what particular data set you are considering. Further, keep in mind an overall statistical distribution doesn't cause any individual case to be more or less likely to be crap -- so if you've picked out nine crappy CDs in the bargain bin, the tenth isn't sure to be a good listen. Just like if you flip a coin and get heads nine times, it would seem unlikely you'd get heads ten times in a row, but in fact there's still a 50% probability you'd get heads. Fletcher (talk) 20:55, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
With CDs, it could be that 90% of the albums are crap and that 90% of the tracks on the non-crap albums are also crap. And 90% of the non-crap tracks are... Matt Deres (talk) 00:38, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Name the song

On the radio a few days ago they played a song which I can't remember the words to except for "On earth I can't do shit with out the man f***ing with it". What song is this and by who? Thanks. 79.76.253.101 (talk) 20:14, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

The song is "Heaven Is A Halfpipe" by OPM D0762 (talk) 20:20, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] James Bond movie tagline

Anybody knows from which James Bond film is the following tagline:

  • Has James Bond finally met his match? David Pro (talk) 21:17, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
That would be, I believe, the rather terrible A View to a Kill. Look at the poster. 83.250.202.36 (talk) 22:51, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] A question of realism in Tintin...

Like pretty much every boy who grew up in Europe in the latter half of the 20th century, I was a huge fan of Tintin. I've read all of them, several times. Two of my favourite albums were The Secret of the Unicorn and Red Rackham's Treasure, which centers around the search for a sunken ship that (supposedly) contains a huge treasure from the pirate Red Rackham. They did find the ship, but unfortunately there was no huge treasure there. However, it did contain many, many bottles of Jamaican Rum which Captain Haddock merrily drank, and got completely pissed from (he drunkenly dove of the ship headfirst without putting on his helmet, for instance, with hilarious consequences).

Here's my question: wouldn't 250 year old rum that's been stored at the bottom of the sea be pretty much undrinkable? I mean, come on! It was something I accepted without question as a child, but adulthood has sadly disillusioned me to many of the wonders of the world, and I fear the drinking habits of Captain Haddock is next in line. What the deal here? 83.250.202.36 (talk) 22:47, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Assuming the bottle was not crushed to nothing by the very high pressure at the bottom, of the sea, it would probably not be drinkable due to some physics thingy (not sure the specific name for that). NanohaA'sYuriTalk, My master 23:31, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Billions of blue blistering barnacles, you call that a question!!! Just kidding. But it's more of a science/chemistry question than an entertainment one. I don't know what would happen to the rum, but keep in mind an alcoholic like Haddock may have a more... liberal definition of "drinkable." --Fletcher (talk) 00:20, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Well, old wine is supposed to be kept cool and dark, and the bottles rotated occasionally to prevent the top of the cork from drying out. There certainly are places on the bottom of the sea which are constantly cool and dark, and being submerged in water would keep the cork from drying out. The glass could certainly last 250 years (provided it wasn't crushed), but I'd be concerned about the cork. I could imagine various aquatic organisms eating away at it until it no longer sealed the bottle. I suppose we could solve this problem by assuming the bottles were in a dead zone, where no such organisms live. StuRat (talk) 03:05, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
They weren't in a dead zone. There are fish and other aquatic animals swimming around the shipwreck. Ilikefood (talk) 21:06, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] June 6

[edit] Soul Train Narrator

I was wondering what the name of the deep-voiced narrator is on the theme of the show Soul Train? ,many thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.234.71.47 (talk) 00:28, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

IMDB says Sid McCoy. Rmhermen (talk) 14:38, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Actually, the original and most popular host would be Don Cornelius, who also serves as the show's producer. This information can be found here under a simple search for Soul Train
cheers, 10draftsdeep (talk) 17:05, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Art music

I don't understand how art music could be construed as being higher than any other form or music, and as how music couldn't be art music, as all music is art music; each person is a different listener, they listen to different genres because they like how they sound; for me, for example, I like trance because, when I listen to it, I feel like I'm on drugs, and I love it because I can get into a trance or close to it, without taking drugs. The article says that art music is like literary analysis, that you can break it down into individual parts of a music piece or work, however you want to call it, and analyze, like the novel Ulysses, ″Oh, the composer added this bell ring here because it means that the man will soon die.″, when it is impossible to even presume that a the song is even about a man walking through the woods and coming home to this husband and then having sex with him and then chopping his head off!68.148.164.166 (talk) 23:25, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

In fact it is even racist to think that (traditional (or folk)) Hungarian music never had these same presumptions. How many folk songs have never been the telling of a creation story, let's say. How is that the congo drum beat of some African musics not be analyzed? How is that the First Nations drum NOT represent the heartbeat, when you can ask ANY First Nations person and they would say so???68.148.164.166 (talk) 23:32, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Do you have a question? Julia Rossi (talk) 00:45, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Of course, can't you see it?68.148.164.166 (talk) 02:27, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
No. I see a rant and a very juvenile need for others to agree with you. You obviously know you are right and everyone else is wrong, so why do you need the encouragement? -- kainaw™ 02:36, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

68.148.164.166 (talk) 03:58, 3 June 2008 (UTC)The problem is YOU see a rant. If you really need a question here: What makes art music art music? Why is art music art music?68.148.164.166 (talk) 03:58, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

The Art music page doesn't say anything about it being "higher", or that other genres cannot contain symbolism or tell stories and so on. The term "art music" is just a name. It shouldn't be taken so literally. It doesn't imply that other genres are not art or music. It is just a label. As for what sorta of music are considered art music, the page seems to describe its characteristics pretty well. Pfly (talk) 04:09, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
This is what it says:

The term primarily refers to classical traditions (including contemporary as well as historical classical music forms) which focus on formal styles, invite technical and detailed deconstruction[2] and criticism, and demand focused attention from the listener.

How is it that nonclassical songs, like electronic, for example, be less likely to be art music?68.148.164.166 (talk) 11:32, 3 June 2008 (UTC)68.148.164.166 (talk) 02:31, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
I actually agree with you. "Art music" as a category seems somewhat unhelpful to me. "Art rock", on the other hand, I have no problem with. --Richardrj talk email 13:15, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Although, to be honest, I never saw Black Angels or 4'33" to be particularly "serious" or "erudite." Maybe I'm just a Philistine. bibliomaniac15 05:03, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Heh, Black Angels sounds like fingernails on a blackboard to me. I don't like any of the names for the genre - art, serious, erudite. Are there better ones out there? One that would be broad enough to include, say, JS Bach (as from the page's def, his music should qualify)? Pfly (talk) 05:14, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
I would say that "composition" is the nearest thing to an umbrella term covering non-popular Western music. This term is usually taken to exclude jazz, rock, pop, soul, R&B etc, even though these forms are all, to some extent, composed. --Richardrj talk email 07:23, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
I find Black Angels to be a searingly beautiful composition. When you listen to it you have to remember that it was written in the context of the Vietnam War. Crumb referred too the piece as “music in tempore belli” (in time of war). Just as Guernica may not be a “beautiful” painting—it was intended to express a horrible, tragic truth—Black Angles is not intended to be easy to listen to. People are addicted to “nice” music. Sometimes it is healthy for an audience to be forced to face deeper realities. --S.dedalus (talk) 22:28, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Heh heh, Black Angles ... not many blacks in that part of Europe back then.  :) Now to the serious part of the post.. Terminology can be a real bugbear. The fact that most traditional forms don't fit into "popular music" doesn't mean they're not hugely popular, as measured by things such as numbers of adherents, the burgeoning of opera companies around the world, and CD sales. Conversely, there's "classic rock", "classic jazz", etc, cf. "classical". I once heard someone talking about his pastimes: "I spend a lot of time listening to music. I also like classical music sometimes" (you can see my concern here). As for "serious music", most forms of music have their serious side; they're no less serious for being aimed at feckless teenagers or whomever. And it goes on. "Art house film" is complete nonsense as a term. Are other films not associated with cinematic art? High art, low art - rubbish. Good music, bad music - rubbish. Get beyond the (generally meaningless) labels, and explore the infinitely varied world of music. Every human is attracted to certain music and not attracted to other music. It's different for all of us. End of story. -- JackofOz (talk) 23:01, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for the insight,
Looks like art music needs a rewrite.68.148.164.166 (talk) 17:10, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Playoff blowouts

What's the best record any MLB World Series Champion team has had through a single playoffs? Has anyone ever swept the playoffs? Any series with nothing but blowouts? Thanks. 207.229.190.19 (talk) 04:30, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

The site you need to look through is here. Almost any question related to baseball stats can be found somewhere on that site. Playoffs sweeps have occurred, but I don't know offhand how many times it's been done. I know that in 1976, the Cincinnati Reds swept the Phillies in three straight games in the NLCS, then swept the Yankees in four games in the World Series. That seems to have been the only time the two-tier playoffs were swept all the way. I don't think it's been done in the new three-tier system, though the White Sox of 2005 seem to have come closest, losing only a single game. Before 1969, there was only a World Series, with no intermediary playoffs, so a clean sweep was obviously much easier. I don't know about the biggest blowout, but a Series that might interest you was the 1960 World Series between the Pittsburgh Pirates and the New York Yankees. The Yanks vastly outscored the Pirates, but lost the Series because most of their runs occurred in three blow-outs, while the Pirates squeaked through four other wins. You can do the math here to see. Matt Deres (talk) 13:42, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes, the Reds are the only team to sweep the playoffs since 1969, when the LCS started. Since 1995 (when the DS and LCS started), the 1999 Yankees and 2005 White Sox have come the closest, going 11-1. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.113.79.227 (talk) 03:18, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Is Lord of War, the movie, a true story?

Is the movie based on events around that time in general, or is Yuri Orlov an actual person, who all this happened to? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.162.247.167 (talk) 05:06, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Our article says Orlov has similarites to Viktor Bout and Leonard Minin. Algebraist 08:32, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Nationality of referees in soccer.

Why if the referee of an important match is from China (for example)... many people don't like it?. Isn't the same a referee from England and a referee from China?... I hope you understand me a great kiss. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.49.95.223 (talk) 21:58, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

I think we understand you and your great kiss very well. The fact that I cannot remember anybody talking badly about a football referee from China is part of the answer - there must have been some used on the worldwide stage, but I cannot recall it happening. But there is often criticism about referees from some countries because, for example, he may not have been trained as well as in the UK, for physical pace and strength, and use of the rules; or he is used to a different style of play - one perhaps less physical. He might have a different opinion about what is natural contact and what is a foul, and give out 'too many' cards. All that and more is partly why there is only a small group of people at any one time who will be considered for refereeing important matches, with the rest looked down. Theediscerning (talk) 23:06, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Montgomery County, Maryland on Television

I have noticed that an abnormal amount of television shows, specifically documentaries like unsolved murder cases, minor serial killers, science shows, and many other programs take place/are filmed in Montgomery County, Maryland. Why is that? Does it have an extremely high amount of unsolved murders and violent crime? --Anthonysenn (talk) 22:55, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] GM Predicts?

Did Criswell steal GM's lines? -- Toytoy (talk) 23:59, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] June 7

[edit] Famous althetes who were adopted

I am looking for a comprehensive list of famous athletes who were adopted (or lived in orphanages like Babe Ruth).

Can anyone add names to the list so far?

Stone Cold Steve Austin (WWE) Peter Carruthers (figure skater) Michael Clark (boxer) Daunte Culpepper (NFL) Ted DiBiase (WWE) Ric Flair (WWE) Larry Foyt (motor) Scott Hamilton (figure skater) Greg Louganis (diver) Jim Palmer (MLB) Abramovich, Roman (Chelsea owner) Baiul, Oksana (figure skater) Brian Moore (rugby) Fashanu, John (soccer) Mikita, Stan (NHL) Mourning, Alonzo (NBA) Naismith, James (basketball) Tony McKegney (NHL) Grant Fuhr (NHL) Curtis Joseph (NHL) Shaun Wright-Phillips (soccer) Babe Ruth (MLB) Eric Dickerson (NFL) Dan O'Brien (decathlon)

205.210.170.49 (talk) 00:38, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Nintendo

This is bogus. Since no Nintendo console except the Wii was more successful than its predecessor, I doubt the Wii will end up twice as successful than the GameCube, let alone more successful than the 64. And the fact that Wii games are "fun" and "easy to use" is a blatant lie. Not only is the Wiimote sometimes unresponsive, as it nearly always was the very few times I have used a Wii, but mishandling the Wiimote can destroy objects or injure someone - it can sometimes even be fatal. Who's with me? Interactive Fiction Expert/Talk to me 09:25, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Do not start debates or post diatribes. The reference desk is not a soapbox. Adam Bishop (talk) 11:23, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Yes, but I want to know what anyone has to say about this. Interactive Fiction Expert/Talk to me 12:43, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
That is a debate. Do not start debates or post diatribes.
However, if you can provide a reference for your comment that the Wii "can sometimes even be fatal." I would be interested in reading about someone killed by a Wii. APL (talk) 12:59, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
I can't find any references, but I know it can be, especially if it hits someone in the face or heart at high speed. Anyway, what do you have to say about what I said? Interactive Fiction Expert/Talk to me 13:13, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Most anything can be fatal if it hits you in the head or heart at a sufficient velocity. Now, do you have a question? This is not a forum to discuss various things or get on your soapbox. Please see the header at the top of this page for the Ref Desk guidelines. Dismas|(talk) 14:06, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Mister Expert, I would be careful if I were you. You are intentionally soapboxing and trying to start a debate after you have been specifically reminded that is against the rules. That is what I think about what you said. APL (talk) 16:00, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Hopefully, this will be seen as fact and not as fuel. The Wii has already outsold the Gamecube, and it is still flying off the shelves. While I do see Wii's in stores pretty frequently, they're also out of stock very often. If it sells 10 million units in the next decade, it would surpass the N64 figures, another 10 million after that, and it would have sold twice as much as the Gamecube. Whether it will sell 20 million more copies, well... Wikipedia is not a crystal ball. --Wirbelwindヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 20:05, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
And on a related note, there's a very relevant article for the OP in the June 2008 issue of Game Informer. --Wirbelwindヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 21:05, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
And what does that article say? Interactive Fiction Expert/Talk to me 23:36, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
If moving this kind of post over to a more recent day than the one it was originally posted on (in the attempt to garner undeserved interest) isn't against the rules, it should be. Kreachure (talk) 15:14, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
That's not a good enough response. Besides, what I am saying is that I hate the Wii and want one or both of its competitors to beat it. I don't see why the Wii should be liked this much, with all the accidents and difficult games. Since the N64 has more recognisable games, it wouldn't make sense for the Wii to beat it. Neither would it make sense for the Wii to double its predecessor, with the predeseccor's much larger quantity of games. Interactive Fiction Expert/Talk to me 02:43, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Well, to be blunt, who cares what you think? There must be hundreds of gaming forums for you to voice your opinion. The Wikipedia Reference Desk is not the right place. Adam Bishop (talk) 15:41, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] super paper mario door

In super paper mario in Mt. Lineland. There is a door floating in mid-air right next to the pit where the Spiny Tromps fall in after rolling down the hill. How do you get in this door and what's in it?--Pufferfish4 (talk) 04:44, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] What is the title of this song and it's artist?

I have recorded this song in Garage Band, but only know a few notes. The song is actually played in guitar. I have played the main riff three times. The third sounds the best. What is the name of the song and who is it by. I do not believe that it is Eric Clapton or Derek and the Dominoes "Layla". Please help.

http://jtg920.net/whatsong.m4a

Thanks

Jtg920 (talk) 05:11, 7 June 2008 (UTC)


I'm not entirely sure, but it does sound a lot like the main theme to Harry Potter. Leeboyge (talk) 16:43, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
No, that's not it. This song is a rock type song. The piano of the song is a guitar riff. Thanks for your attempt, though. Jtg920 (talk) 18:47, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] The Rock Band menu noise. Pinch harmonic or what?

In the video game Rock Band, clicking on just about anything uses the same sound effect http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_H7JzGgaeE. I was thinking it may be a pinch harmonic, but I'm a bit tone deaf and musically inexperienced, so I really can't be sure. Just a little bit of trivia I'm curious about. Thanks, Magicallydajesus (talk) 08:58, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm no expert on music either, but after listening to the video, I would say they are notes of the same chord. The individual notes of the chord flow together to make the whole sound "good". I am not sure what chord they used, though. Leeboyge (talk) 16:22, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
It's just different power chords.Someoneinmyheadbutit'snotme (talk) 17:12, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Magicallydajesus (talk • contribs) 01:59, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] That's not my name

  • That's not my name
  • That's not my name
  • That's not my name
  • That's not my name

What is her name? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.153.78.140 (talk) 09:55, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Katie White. Algebraist 10:16, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

If you can answer that in 20 minutes, why does everyone get it wrong? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.128.100.16 (talk) 18:31, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

User:Algebraist is clearly not "everyone". Zain Ebrahim (talk) 21:29, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
Possibly the other people the OP asked were not plugged into Google at the time. Algebraist 07:25, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] WARP3 in baseball.

What exactly is this stat and how is it calculated? A good link would do. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.95.56.185 (talk) 12:17, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Here is a website for you. Basically, WARP is "Wins Above Replacement Player" calculated within a single season, WARP2 takes into account the difficulty of the season, and WARP3 tries to compensate for the shorter seasons of the 19th century. It was developed by the folks at Baseball Prospectus and it appears that the formula is a secret (see PECOTA). Matt Deres (talk) 15:08, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] quentin tarantino's verdict on true romance

Hi, in True Romance, it is fairly well known that director Tony Scott changed the ending to a more palatable one for commercial tastes, but I've read mixed versions of (writer) Tarantino's verdict. Somewhere (maybe an earlier edit of the TR page), I read that he said Scott chose the right ending for the film he made, but that he himself would have kept the original, and done the film in a darker tone to suit. On the DVD, however, it says that he didn't like the ending at all, and wanted his own retained. Does anyone know what his current verdict is? I've read our article, and the articles linked to it, but can't find anything. Thanks, 203.221.127.200 (talk) 18:03, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Ok, I think I've read the best answer on the web, at [73], but if anyone has anything further to add, I'd be mighty interested. It still contradicts the dvd, but it looks more recent and more reliable. 203.221.127.200 (talk) 18:29, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Very old rap song

Does anyone know this rap song... There was a rap song that, as far as I know, was a one-hit for whomever performed it. I am rather certain that the artist was only popular in southern California from about 1988-1992. The song was in regular rotation on the rap stations by 1990. While I do not know anything about the artist, I remember the plot of the song well. The singer met with some friends and went to Oceanside. While there, they met some guys who wanted to go to Del Mar. While there, they went to "a club called E" or "a club named E". In the club, he hit on a girl in uniform, but he said "she dissed me a miss." That is about all there is to the rap song. I've never been able to figure out who did it or what the name of the song was. -- kainaw™ 21:24, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] June 8

[edit] Who is the actress...

Who plays in that Chase credit card commercial with the theme to Mary Tyler Moore being used? I tried a few Google searches but wasn't able to find out. I just watched the Movie Teeth (film) and I could have sworn it's the same actress (Jess Weixler), but my friend says it definitely isn't. That actresses profile on imdb, as well as her article here doesn't say anything about the commercial. That doesn't bode well for me but it's not definitive—absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.... Anyway, identifying who is in the commercial will settle this. Thank you.--70.107.9.159 (talk) 03:10, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Piece by chopin???

I would like to know the name of this piece (perhaps by chopin). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6nTwgcKT1M&feature=related —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.52.45.251 (talk) 05:19, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

It's definitely not by Chopin, but I don't recognise it. It sounds like something that perhaps Li Yundi composed himself, but that's just a guess. -- JackofOz (talk) 07:38, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] European Band w. Music Video on Couch Masturbating

I apologize for anyone who finds this offensive, and please do not assume this is a prank of some kind because it isn't. There is some kind of a European band (or possibly Czech or Russian...) and they have a music video which is literally of four guys sitting on a couch masturbating. Yes, it is sexually explicit. There is also a girl on the couch "pretending" to masturbate with a dildo. They are all wearing fake beards and unless I misremember also hats. I believe the people on the couch are NOT the band members though it was implied that they were. I read an article about this band on Wikipedia but I have tried any and every search I can think of that would bring up the article on the band with just this information and had no luck. I've also googled my brains out. I really just want to know the name of the band and the song. TheGoonSquad (talk) 10:21, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Problems with up and download speeds.

I'm running HP Windows 2000, and I've installed "A not free torrent" also Easy Movie Access. Should this slow me down to were I have NO in or out speeds in this torrent? 'Easy Movie Access dumps into this torrent As it should. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hinka3 (talk • contribs) 21:13, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Miscellaneous

Wikipedia:Reference desk/Miscellaneous

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