Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football/Archive 20

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This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

1 Turkish names for non-Turkish footballers
2 FA Cup Finals
3 Serie C2
4 Mayo League
5 Avram Grant
6 World Cup qualification sections on national team articles
7 Kinkladze peer review
8 Dejan Marić
9 England national football team results
10 Debut details
11 WP:RM on Association football in the ROI to Football (soccer) in the Republic of Ireland
12 Deportivo Saprissa World Tour 1959
13 No date of death
14 Histon F.C. peer review
15 Stephen Henderson (footballer)
16 Provisional squads infos on UEFA Euro 2008 squads
17 Euro 1968 template
- 17.1 Super-collapse template
- 17.2 Super-collapse !vote
  - 17.2.1 Options
  - 17.2.2 !Voting
- 17.3 Conclusion
18 Wikinews invitation
19 Gareth Barry
20 Chris McGroarty (Scottish footballer)
21 Loan start
22 The real template clutter
23 Standard for the finals articles?
24 Page move
25 U18 international tournaments
26 Category standardization
27 Templates
28 Article on "six plus five" proposal
29 Serie D

Turkish names for non-Turkish footballers

I think it's useless to use Turkish names for non-Turkish footballers that neither played for Turkish national team. For example: Kubilay Türkyılmaz, Hakan Yakın, Murat Yakın, Uğur Yıldırım, Nejdet Şahin, Serdar Taşçı. They're the first who came me in mind, but I think there are plenty more. They weren't born in Turkey, and unless in their country of birth's register office Turkish letters (ı, ğ, etc..) are permitted (in Switzerland they aren't), they WEREN'T BORN with names/surnames in Turkish fashion. Obviously, I agree to mention in the article the Turkish spelling ('cause heritage can't be avoided), but not in the article's name or in the bold introduction. What do you think? --necronudist (talk) 16:46, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Agree, as those are neither their official names nor names used commonly in the media. Chanheigeorge (talk) 18:23, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

I also agree, only Turkish-born players should use such a font. Giant Snowman 18:29, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree, per GiantSnowman.--Latouffedisco (talk) 19:48, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree entirely, and have made page moves to this effect to the articles for Colin Kazim-Richards and Kemal Izzet. I would lean towards all names in en.wikipedia being in the version usually given in English language sources (i.e. generally without diacritics), unless the person concerned is known almost entirely from sources in translation. Kevin McE (talk) 20:24, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree with the moving of non-Turkish-born players being moved to article titles without diacritics. However, I would not agree with all players being moved to titles without diacritics. In many cases, I believe the English media leave these out because they simply do not know which letters should have diacritics and which ones shouldn't. If we can reliably source the correct spelling of a player's name (including diacritics) then that name should be used. – Pee Jay 20:35, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

I believe the Anglo-American press probably just leave diacritics out simply because they don't have the key on their keyboard to type the letters with diacritics. I would strongly oppose any move to remove diacritics for Argentine players, even though they are annoying to type out, even with the luxury of the Wikipedia markup selection. Carreño is a completely different name written Carreno. E P 22:45, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

To clarify, I did say the version "usually given in in English language sources": this usually includes acute and grave accents and tildes, but excludes other letter forms. I might have misused the word "diacritic", but even so, I only said "generally without", not invariably. Kevin McE (talk) 06:09, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree more with the line of EP. So long as the text of the title is in a form of Latin script then that should be acceptable. The title should generally be the player's birthname, or that which they choose to go by. If a player is born to a Turkish family in Switzerland, if that player chooses to include diacritics in their name, though this is not on their birth certificate, then that should be respected. On a similar line, the actress/director Asia Argento was not allowed to be given the forename Asia on her birth certificate by the Italian authorities (she was born in Rome), but that is the name she chooses to be known by and hence this is the title of her article. Dancarney (talk) 06:36, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

As always you start discussing about an issue and after 5/6 answers, you're speaking about something totally different. However... nevermind. --necronudist (talk) 09:12, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

I was just trying to draw a parallel to back up my point.Dancarney (talk) 09:52, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

It was a plural you. Nobody ever talked about cutting tildes on Carreños, and that issue about the "common English name" is open from ages, but nobody ever discuss it seriously. --necronudist (talk) 10:14, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Two guys that you should add to the list: Ronald Gërçaliu (should be Ronald Gercaliu) and Gökhan İnler (should be Gökhan Inler). Unfortunately both cannot be moved "easily" so help has to be requested. Chanheigeorge (talk) 20:25, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Why can't they be easily moved? --necronudist (talk) 20:28, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

'Cos they've had edit history: [1] [2]. Chanheigeorge (talk) 20:34, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Nuri Şahin should be moved, too. As he [writes in his website] (Portrait -> Steckbrief) he was born in Germany as Nuri Sahin. --necronudist (talk) 14:10, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

FA Cup Finals

I spend too much of my time creating/expanding articles about England players, especially those from the 19th century. Where a player has appeared in an FA Cup Final I like to include a summary of the match with special mention of any contributions from the player concerned. One day, I would hope to add a match summary to each of the FA Cup Final articles. Unfortunately, the sources available to me are often in conflict with each other, so I'm not sure which are reliable and what actually happened. Take the 1890 FA Cup Final for example: the Phillip Gibbons book I use (see my user page if you want the details) states that the half-time score was 4-0. There is a website which has an article about every Cup Final but unfortunately it's deemed to be Spam and I'm prevented from linking to it. The address if you want to look it up is hometown.aol.co.uk/captainbeecher/1890FACUPFINAL.html preceded by http://. As it's deemed to be Spam, I've no idea how reliable it is. FWIW, this indicates a half-time score of 3-0, which is supported by the soccerbase summary. Finally the match report at www.fa-cupfinals.co.uk is too brief to be of much help.

Does anyone know a reliable, quotable source either on the web or in a book? Cheers and thanks for indulging me. Daemonic Kangaroo (talk) 07:58, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

The Times match report has 4–0, though when I first read it, it didn't make sense because I read it as a description of one goal, not two.

"During the next few minutes the ball was well in the Sheffield quarters, and, in spite of Betts once sending it well away, Walton and Townley returned, and the latter, with a low shot, secured the third goal. Forrest sent the ball to Townley, who transferred it in fine style from the edge of the line to Southworth, and the last-named sent it between the posts. Thus at half-time four points were scored for the Rovers."

<ref>{{cite news |title=Football. Association Rules. The Association Challenge Cup |publisher=[[The Times]] |format=The Times Digital Archive 1785-1985 |page=10 |date=[[1890-03-31]] |accessdate=2008-05-23}}</ref>

The Times Digital Archive is a wondrous thing. You should be able to access it if you are a member of a UK library; see User:Foxhill/internet reference sites accessible with a valid UK Library card for details. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 08:30, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

and having read it again, I could convince myself the reporter had gone off early for his halftime break and then made up the bit between Blackburn's 3rd and the play preceding Sheffield's goal. Anyone know how long they had for half time in those days? cheers, Struway2 (talk) 12:46, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for that Struway - the sequence of events per The Times is the same as the Gibbons book - I'm still confused, however, as Soccerbase gives actual times for the goals and times the fourth goal at 50 minutes, which agrees with the Spam site. I've decided to invest a few pounds in two books from Amazon: "The Complete Record of the FA Cup" by Mike Collett and "The FA Cup: The Complete Story" by Guy Lloyd & Nick Holt. (Don't tell the wife!) Hopefully, they'll be able to shed some light. We'll see. --Daemonic Kangaroo (talk) 15:30, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Serie C2

Is this a fully professional league? In this discussion it was suggested that it was, but without any evidence. Given that 3/4 of the clubs have attendances below 1,000 [3] (which is generally the minimum needed to turn pro, at least in the UK, and puts it on a par with the Conference North and South or the Scottish Second Division) I am leaning towards it not being so. However, does anyone have any evidence, and if not, should we assume that in absence of any evidence, that it isn't? пﮟოьεԻ 5 7 11:57, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

I was under the impression that evidence needed to be provided to show it was fully professional, rather than evidence provided the other way round. Though that may have been part of the redundant WP:FOOTYN discussions. Peanut4 (talk) 12:04, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

I would say it should always be assumed that a subject is not notable unless it can be proven otherwise. – Pee Jay 12:06, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Angelo said at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football/Notability#Clubs that "the pro divisions are from Serie A to Serie C2". cheers, Struway2 (talk) 12:44, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

I can confirm all leagues from Serie A to Serie C2 are fully professional. Namely, Serie C1 and Serie C2 are organized by the Lega Professionisti Serie C (Serie C Professional League). The low attendances can be explained with the fact Serie C is composed by 90 teams, and many of them represent very tiny towns such as Rodengo-Saiano, Carpenedolo and Castelnuovo di Garfagnana. All other leagues are called dilettanti, that is Italian for "amateur", and are somewhat equivalent to English non-league divisions. That's all. --Angelo (talk) 13:29, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

I confirm all. --necronudist (talk) 14:04, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

OK, thanks for that. Just out of interest, how do clubs with attendances of 300 afford to pay full time wages? Do C2 clubs get television money or large amounts of sponsorship? пﮟოьεԻ 5 7 16:49, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Keep in mind match attendances in Italy are much lower than in England. The minimum wage for an Italian professional footballer is 36,000 € per year, but consider many of Serie C players are on loan from higher league teams, and their wages are thus paid by the controlling clubs. In addition, Serie C teams hardly manage to make some profit, and they are actually maintained by the club owners (usually local enterpreneurs with enough money to afford the club expenses); when they fail to do so, the clubs declare bankruptcy (not that uncommon in Italian football). In addition, a couple of samples: Carpenedolo's owner Tommaso Ghirardi is Parma's chairman, and Valle del Giovenco chairman Giovanni Lombardi Stronati is the owner of Siena. It's not a case these teams are playing right now the promotion playoffs, despite their low home attendances. --Angelo (talk) 17:37, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Ahahah confirm all again. It's the Italian way, baby :-) Success or bankruptcy. The same way politicians do :-) --necronudist (talk) 19:49, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Mayo League

Just bringing this here as I admit I know relatively little about football in Ireland other than watching weekly games on Setanta Sports. This league though, the Mayo League only mentions that it has two clubs? Surely that can't be right?♦Tangerines♦·Talk 19:57, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

That article has about as much credibility as Jessie Buckley's performance tonight =P – Pee Jay 20:00, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Ouch! :) (Oh and err "Come on Jodie!" no surprise really) On topic I see the Mayo League article is gone now. ♦Tangerines♦·Talk 23:18, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Avram Grant

The poor fella has just been sacked - can we all keep an eye on the article for possible vandalism please. Cheers, Giant Snowman 20:46, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

World Cup qualification sections on national team articles

I recently removed sections consisting of 2010 World Cup fixtures and tables from a couple of national team articles. I think such sections are not encyclopedic, being solely concerned with current events. These sections seem to have appeared on more or less every national team article, so I'd like to ensure there is consensus before I go and remove the lot. Oldelpaso (talk) 09:55, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree. All that stuff should be removed. The only thing relating to current events should be the nation's current squad. – Pee Jay 10:07, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Thirded. Giant Snowman 11:58, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Should there be a consistant text for linking it eg "Wikiland are currectly competing for qualification to the 2010 FIFA World Cup" added to articles? Fasach Nua (talk) 12:21, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Sounds like a good idea to me. Giant Snowman 12:29, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Kinkladze peer review

Georgi Kinkladze recently failed a featured article nomination, and is now at Peer Review in an attempt to get it ready for a second nomination. Any feedback or comments would be greatly appreciated. Oldelpaso (talk) 14:46, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Dejan Marić

I am writeing to request for the Dejan Marić page to be unblocked , Because i think it will be unfair that no one will be able to edit the page when he becomes a professional in the Montenegrin and serbian leagues, thanks for reading.I belive that the vandal is not stupid enough to vandalise the page again because he knows it will just get blocked.

(talk) 23:56, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

I have recommended this user to bring this issue here as well. The user wants the creation protection of Dejan Marić to be lifted, and has filed a request for unprotection. The article was salted about half a year ago after a number of recreations and speedy deletions, as well as Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Dejan Marić. I raised this issue at this talk page at the time, see Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football/Archive 15#Dejan Marić. A ecis^Brievenbus 23:36, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Does he actually qualify for one now? пﮟოьεԻ 5 7 07:17, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

If the editor can find reliable sources to show the player passes WP:ATHLETE and offers them in support of his unsalting request, there shouldn't be any problem, should there? And if they can't, there isn't any point in unsalting it in crystal-balling anticipation of him becoming notable. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 07:45, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

I am available to unsalt the article, but only in case you can provide me some sources stating the subject has made at least a first team appearance in a fully professional league. --Angelo (talk) 07:53, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Someone named Marić, possibly Dejan Marić, appears to have played for FK Igalo (also known as OSK Igalo). Since FK Igalo play in the Third League of Montenegro, I doubt this is a fully professional league. I also can't tell whether the Marić in the lineup is the Dejan Marić of this discussion, and whether the team listed is a senior side. For now I think there is insufficient material for an article, and this case should be treated like any player of for instance Nostell Miners Welfare F.C. or Borrowash Victoria A.F.C.. For this reason I see little use in unsalting the article. A ecis^Brievenbus 09:59, 22 May 2008

(UTC) If you read it says gledalaca oko 1,500 which means attendance of around 1,500 people do you really think 1,500 people would turn up to a children game, it was the senior team playing against FK Otrant last year. Also the league FK Igalo , OFK Igalo or OSK Igalo whatever you know them by do play in a professional league by montenegrin standards.If the team played in England or another big footballing nation it would not be a proffesional league, i was not asking to request an article about Dejan but just for the page to be unsalted for the future. (talk) 11.40, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

We don't do crystal balling here. When there is a source that says he has played professional football, then the article will be unprotected. Until then, it will remain protected so that people don't try to recreate it when it is certain that it will get deleted. Woody (talk) 10:49, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

What do you mean with "a professional league by montenegrin standards"? Are the standards in Montenegro different from other countries? Is playing football his job, his source of income? If so, then it's a professional league; if not then not. A ecis^Brievenbus 11:31, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

I mean it is different standards by Montenegrin income rate. The footballers playing for FK Igalo earn from around 100-300 euros a month depending on how good they are and their contracts, the average monthly salary in montenegro is around 200 euros, while in england it is much more, in montenegro lots of things are cheaper so people can live of their wages , while in england average monthly pays are triple this. plying football is his job because he is young and this is a good income for him. (talk) 16.51 26th May 2008 (UTC)

England national football team results

Just a note that some weeks ago, an IP started to create a table in which to record these results but only managed 1966 and 1967 before seemingly giving up! Thus we now have results recorded in two formats. Should we revert back to the original format or carry on where the IP left off? --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 17:49, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Personally, I prefer the original format; it's readable, and in particular the indentation for matches within competitions helps with the readability. The table layout gives undue prominence to the date and venue as against the important bits like what competition the match is in, which is abbreviated down to an incomprehensible string of letters, and the goalscorer details, which is in so small a font I can't read it without a magnifying glass. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 18:08, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

I believe a table format is the way forward, but not this particular table format. As Struway2 says the table is currently incomprehensible. Giant Snowman 18:28, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

I have reverted back to the original format as a) it is, I think, preferable to keep the results in the one format, and b) the particular table format that was used is not favoured by your comments. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 01:28, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Debut details

(Something that has bugged me for a while, and the discussion of WC qualifying tables above spurs me to add it) Prose for younger players, presumably in an attempt to make the article more than 2 lines long, has recently started including almost painful amounts of detail about first appearances: Paul Lennon made his debut for Penny Lane Rovers in a rain-affected League Two match at the Strawberry Fields stadium against Abbey Road United on 25th May 2008, a match that was carried live on LSD TV, as a 72nd minute replacement for George Starr who had incurred a toe injury. The match ended in a 2-1 win for Rovers, with ex-United favourite John Harrison scoring a the winning goal with a 69th header from a cross by Ringo McCartney. I exaggerate, but only slightly. These expanded match descriptions only seem to have occurred on articles of recent debutants (for Stanley Matthews, we are only told what year that he signed pro terms), and seem to confuse journalism and a desire for editors to see their favourites' get a name check, with encyclopaedic intent. I know that it has no status beyond an informal suggestion, but I think the ten year "rule" is a wise principle to act upon, and these details clearly fail to meet the expectation that encyclopaedic remain relevant in the longer term. Is there consensus that we can set about radically reducing them? Kevin McE (talk) 13:19, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

I believe that something similar to Sean Morrison's article is ideal - it simply says what date he made his debut, who against, the final score, and who he replaced as a substitute. I have also included details of his first full start, and will detail his first goal if/when he scores. That is all that is needed, I feel. Giant Snowman 14:05, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

I think that is far more than is needed, and an example of what I mean. I dare say Sean Morrison hopes to make many hundred professional appearances: I don't think is in any way proportionate or relevant to include this. Would it be your intention that this level of detail for these games is still there in 5 or 10 years time? While his career is only two games old, why does his article need to be more than a couple of lines. He is notable because he has made a first team appearance, but there was nothing notable about his appearance at Gillingham (believe me: I was there). If we don't need minor details of the debuts of Moore, Charlton, Matthews or Finney, why would we want it of a current crop? Kevin McE (talk) 17:19, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

I think Sean Morrison's details are just about right. And on a par with Bobby Moore, who you quoted. Debuts are important games in players' careers remember. Peanut4 (talk) 17:46, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Not strictly true: the Bobby Moore article has "played his first game on 8 September 1958, against Manchester United", much briefer than the Morrison example. Kevin McE (talk) 17:55, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Nah. Read on, cos there's more explanation. "Moore joined West Ham as a player in 1956, and after advancing through their youth set up played his first game on September 8, 1958, against Manchester United. In putting on the number 6 shirt, he replaced his mentor Malcolm Allison, who was suffering from tuberculosis." Peanut4 (talk) 18:12, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree; I think that the level of detail in the Sean Morrison article is acceptable, as it details major landmarks in his career - first appearance, first start, and in time first goal. However, the level of detail as shown in your first Beatles-esque example is far too much. Giant Snowman 17:50, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

I'd put "first half substitute" instead of specifying the minute, but otherwise I have no issue with the Morrison example. I think it is easier to read if words are used instead of precise timings. "Late goal", not "88th minute goal", "midway through the first half", not "24th minute" and so on. That goes for all sorts of situations, not just players, like articles on cup finals etc. Oldelpaso (talk) 18:08, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

That's a good idea, I'll change the Morrison article accordingly. Giant Snowman 18:20, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure why Morrison's is classed as "too much detail". As many of us will testify, we spend a lot of time looking around for this kind of information in the first place, so why would we leave it out and increase the workload for someone else wanting to know? - Dudesleeper / Talk 01:07, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Exactly. I'd rather have details there to read, than nothing like many stubs, e.g. Milan Páleník. The vast majority of articles need more details, not less. Peanut4 (talk) 01:11, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

I believe many of the not very notable players have far too much detail. Some detail not only their debut, but their second third and fourth goals and how they are scored. At least when players have a bit more meat behind them they lose half that waffle... at least until super-super stardom status, when the fan brigade get into the article... However, in his first game following the ban Ronaldo scored the only goal in the 60th minute of a Champions League away game against Sporting Lisbon on return to his old club. He was given a standing ovation by the Sporting supporters for his muted celebrations following the goal. Following this match, Ronaldo has kept his goalscoring boots on in the away fixture against Birmingham City F.C. The goalscoring continued with a brace against Wigan Athletic F.C. Ronaldo contributed three goals in both the home and away fixtures against Dynamo Kiev, a goal against Arsenal F.C. and another brace against Blackburn Rovers. An injury time winner, coming from a free-kick in the home fixture against Sporting Lisbon... blah blah blah ... in the away fixture against West Ham United F.C., Ronaldo scored in the match but missed a penalty. Good grief!--ClubOranje^Talk 07:54, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

WP:RM on Association football in the ROI to Football (soccer) in the Republic of Ireland

A vote is taking place here regarding a 'Requested Move' from Association football in the Republic of Ireland to Football (soccer) in the Republic of Ireland. Reasons are listed that promote the motion. A broad participation would be welcome. Regards, Matt Lewis (talk) 15:01, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Deportivo Saprissa World Tour 1959

Is this article worthy? I prodded it, but as usual it's been removed without explanation. Thought I'd ask before AfD'ing. пﮟოьεԻ 5 7 16:23, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

I think it is notable if the claim in the opening paragraph is true. - Darwinek (talk) 16:33, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't think it is notable as a stand alone article at all. At best it could be added into the main Deportivo Saprissa article or if that article gets too long into a History of Deportivo Sapirissa article.♦Tangerines♦·Talk 16:36, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

To be fair, the prod-remover did comment on the talk page. The bit about 25 games in 22 countries is rubbish. The reference called Team roster links to Deportivo Saprissa's website, which claims it was the first world tour undertaken by a South American team, but says they played 22 games which were played in 9 countries, as shown in the table in the article, but on their travels they visited 25 different countries. I'd say it's a significant part of the club's history, but not notable of itself, but that's just my opinion. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 16:57, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Actually the prod-remover didn't comment on the talk page. The prod was removed by User:SuperSonicx1986, the article creator and not Darwinek who commented on it in the discussion page.♦Tangerines♦·Talk 17:01, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

My mistake, sorry, misread the history. Though it was Dramatic, not Darwinek, who commented on the talk page. It's been a long day... cheers, Struway2 (talk) 17:18, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Note to self - when correcting something, always best not to make a mistake myself.....:) Still SuperSonicx hasn't commented!♦Tangerines♦·Talk 17:24, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

No date of death

If we have no info regarding death dates, should we presume that former players are still alive? Or should we assume that they have passed on? Giant Snowman 12:44, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

WP has guidelines for this sort of thing. In short, it depends when they were born. ArtVandelay13 (talk) 12:55, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

According to this query, we should assume people still might be alive up to age 122, on the basis no-one has ever been proved to have lived to a greater age, but beyond that we can safely assume them to be dead. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 12:57, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Histon F.C. peer review

I've put Histon F.C. up for peer review in order to get third party opinions on a load of disagreements between another editor and myself. All views would be very welcome. Dancarney (talk) 09:35, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Stephen Henderson (footballer)

On the Stephen Henderson (footballer) article, I was wondering whether his Republic of Ireland U15, U16 and U19 stats should be given in the infobox, despite the apps not being available. I would say so, but 86.40.161.10 disagrees. Thanks, Mattythewhite (talk) 14:42, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm inclined to agree with him. Maybe as a compromise you could list them all once under 'Republic of Ireland Youth' (U21 still having its own row). Having all those rows with no date or appearance information looks a little untidy. ArtVandelay13 (talk) 14:54, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

I would agree with ArtVandelay13. Giant Snowman 15:04, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Provisional squads infos on UEFA Euro 2008 squads

Please take a look at this. It's going to be important :-) --necronudist (talk) 15:06, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Euro 1968 template

I just came across this template - {{England Squad 1968 European Championship}}. I seem to remember only World Cup squads should have templates, but can't find policy or a discussion to say so or otherwise. Peanut4 (talk) 20:15, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

And another one. {{England Squad 1980 European Championship}}. Peanut4 (talk) 20:33, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

There was a discussion long ago that got rid of non-World Cup templates; however, I feel that we should bring back squad templates for the top regional competitions such as the Euros, Copa America, ACN etc. Giant Snowman 20:54, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree with that the continental cup's would be nice to have - chandler20 21:14, 25 May 2008 (UTC)~

Is there not a danger of having half an article with templates. Those players who compete in say 6+ championships and then become managers, could easily be getting towards 20 templates. Maybe even more for those who become international managers. Peanut4 (talk) 21:15, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

If we have the option to minimize/hide the template, though, then I don't feel like a larger list would be too difficult to manage. matt91486 (talk) 21:33, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Well Peanut, I wasn't in on the discussion about manager templates, but I think they are a bit unnecessary. (And they are probably the ones taking most place) ← chan dler 22:13, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

I would support the use of Euro and Copa America templates, on the condition that we set a rule that any article with more than 3? templates , uses the template autocollapse feature as was proposed in a discussion I can't seem to find. E P 00:14, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

I think all boxes are set to default autocollapse if there are more than one. Peanut4 (talk) 00:18, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

No it's not that feature, all the collapsed boxes collapse again into a single bar with the option to show templates, when you click on that it spews the multicolour pile of autocollapsed navboxes. I remember seeing it and thinking it was neat, but the discussion (circa April 24 2008) seems to have disappeared. E P 00:27, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

found it E P 00:31, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

I feel like that any articles with a significant number of templates will also likely have a significant amount of written content, because they will likely be significant players or managers, so the template length will probably balance out with a longer article. I'm sure there are a couple exceptions, but that seems like it should usually be the case. matt91486 (talk) 00:24, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm going to stick my neck out, and say I don't think we need them. The consensus was that they weren't necessary, and I don't see why that has changed. Plus if we did have them for continental cups, some African footballers would really have too many (Eto'o for example would have six plus his current club) as their tournament is held every two years. пﮟოьεԻ 5 7 00:33, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

I have to respectfully disagree, how can {{Shimizu S-Pulse managers}} or the {{Farsley Celtic A.F.C. squad}} be more worthy of a place in our encyclopaedia than the Denmark 92 squad or the Colombia 2001 squad? I think the solution proposed below beats the "we haven't got enough space argument". Is there anything else to oppose continental tournament navboxes with? E P 01:18, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Just came accross this discussion, I find the infoboxes useful. The content is definatly encyclopedic and the tournaments are notable. I think the supercolapse box idea discussed below is a good solution for the articles that have several infoboxes (regardless of whether we decide to keep continental tournament ones). Pbradbury (talk) 14:36, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Super-collapse template

See the navbox below for what I am on about, I like it, it seems a good solution to the problem of massive stacks of navboxes. We could even divide it into two, Trapattoni club navigation boxes (in a standard colour) and Trapattoni international navigation boxes (in another colour). If we start using super-collapsed navboxes as standard for all articles with more than say 3/4 collapsed navboxes, the problem of too many navboxes goes away doesn't it? I think we should discuss using this kind of thing no matter whether we allow continental tournament navboxes or not (we would obviously have to get rid of the [v] [d] [e] gubbins though) E P 00:45, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

v • d • e

Giovanni Trapattoni Navigation boxes

v • d • e Italy squad - 1962 FIFA World Cup

1 Buffon • 2 Losi • 3 Radice • 4 Salvadore • 5 Maldini • 6 Trapattoni • 7 Mora • 8 Maschio • 9 Altafini • 10 Sivori • 11 Menichelli • 12 Mattrel • 13 Albertosi • 14 Rivera • 15 Sormani • 16 Robotti • 17 Pascutti • 18 David • 19 Janich • 20 Tumburus • 21 Ferrini • 22 Bulgarelli • Coach: Mazza & Ferrari

v • d • e

Italy national football team – Managers

Technical commission (1910–12) • Pozzo (1912) • Technical commission (1912–24) • Pozzo (1924) • Technical commission (1924–25) • Rangone (1925–28) • Carcano (1928–29) • Pozzo (1929–48) • Novo (as Technical Commission Chairman) (1949–50) • Technical commission (1951) • Beretta (1952–53) • Technical commission (1953) • Czeizler (as Technical Commission Chairman) (1954) • Technical commission (1954–59) • Viani (1960) • Ferrari (1960–61) • Ferrari and Mazza (1962) • Fabbri (1962–66) • Herrera and Valcareggi (1966–67) • Valcareggi (1967–74) • Bernardini (1974–75) • Bearzot (1975–1986) • Vicini (1986–91) • Sacchi (1991–96) • Maldini (1996–98) • Zoff (1998–2000) • Trapattoni (2000–04) • Lippi (2004–06) • Donadoni (2006–)

v • d • e

Republic of Ireland national football team – Managers

Harris (193?–??*) • Lacey (193?–??*) • Livingstone (1951–53) • Stevenson (1953–55) • Carey (1955–67) • Cantwell (1967) • Hurley (1967–69) • Meagan (1969–71) • Tuohy (1971–73) • Thomas (1973**) • Giles (1973–80) • Kelly (1980**) • Hand (1980–85) • Charlton (1986–95) • McCarthy (1996–2002) • Givens (2002**) • Kerr (2003–2005) • Staunton (2006–07) • Givens (2007–08**) Trapattoni (2008–)

* =Between 1924 and 1936 the team was known as the Irish Free State
**=In a caretaker role

v • d • e

Juventus F.C. – Managers

Károly (1923–26) • Viola (1927–29) • Aitken (1929–30) • Carcano (1930–35) • Bigatto (1935) • Rosetta (1935–38) • Caligaris (1938–40) • Munerati (1940–42) • Borel (1942–46) • Cesarini (1946–47) • Chalmers (1948–49) • Carver (1949–51) • Bertolini (1951) • Sárosi (1951–53) • Olivieri (1953–55) • Puppo (1955–57) • Broćić (1957–59) • Depetrini (1959) • Cesarini (1959–61) • Parola (1961) • Gren (1961) • Parola (1961–62) • Amaral (1962–64) • Monzeglio (1964) • Herrera (1964–69) • Carniglia (1969–70) • Rabitti (1970) • Picchi (1970–71) • Vycpálek (1971–74) • Parola (1974–76) • Trapattoni (1976–86) • Marchesi (1986–88) • Zoff (1988–90) • Maifredi (1990–91) • Trapattoni (1991–94) • Lippi (1994–99) • Ancelotti (1999–2001) • Lippi (2001–04) • Capello (2004–06) • Deschamps (2006–07) • Corradini (2007) • Ranieri (2007–)

v • d • e

Cagliari Calcio – Managers

Fichera (1920–21) • Mereu (1921–23) • Colombo (1923–26) • Archibusacci (1926–27) • Winkler (1927–30) • Erbstein (1930–32) • Kuttik (1932–34) • Crotti (1934–35) • Molnár (1935) • Orani (1935–36) • Bonello (1936–38) • Winkler (1938–39) • Congiu (1939–42) • Congiu (1942–46) • D'Aquino (1946–48) • Winkler (1948–49) • Latella (1949–50) • Congiu (1950) • Carpitelli (1950–51) • Congiu (1951) • Allasio (1951–54) • Soro (1954) • Alberto Quario (1954–55) • Piola (1955–56) • Rigotti (1956–57) • Piola (1957) • Congiu (1957–58) • Andreoli (1958) • Perati (1958–60) • Rigotti (1960–61) • Silvestri (1961–66) • Puricelli (1967–68) • Scopigno (1968–72) • Fabbri (1972–73) • Chiappella (1973–75) • Radice (1975) • Luis Suárez (1975–76) • Tiddia (1976) • Toneatto (1976–78) • Tiddia (1978–81) • Carosi (1981–82) • Giagnoni (1982–83) • Tiddia (1983–84) • Veneranda (1984–85) • Ulivieri (1985–86) • Giagnoni (1986–87) • Robotti (1987–88) • Tiddia (1988) • Ranieri (1988–91) • Giacomini (1991) • Mazzone (1991–93) • Radice (1993–94) • Giorgi (1994) • Tabárez (1994–95) • Trapattoni (1995–96) • Giorgi (1996) • Pérez (1996) • Mazzone (1996–97) • Ventura (1997–99) • Tabárez (1999) • Ulivieri (1999–2000) • Bellotto (2000–01) • Materazzi (2001) • Sala (2001–02) • Nuciari (2002) • Sonetti (2002) • Ventura (2002–04) • Reja (2004) • Arrigoni (2004–05) • Tesser (2005) • Arrigoni (2005) • Ballardini (2005–06) • Sonetti (2006) • Giampaolo (2006–07) • Colomba (2007) • Giampaolo (2007) • Sonetti (2007) • Ballardini (2007–)

v • d • e

ACF Fiorentina – Managers

Csapkay (1926–30) • Feldmann (1930–31) • Felsner (1931–33) • Rady (1933) • Ging (1933–34) • Ara (1934–37) • Molnar (1938) • Soutschek (1938–39) • Galluzzi (1939–45) • Bigogno (1945–46) • Ara (1946) • Magli (1946–47) • Senkey (1947) • Ferrero (1947–51) • Magli (1951–53) • Bernardini (1953–58) • Czeizler (1958–59) • Ferrero (1959) • Carniglia (1959–60) • Chiappella (1960) • Hidegkuti (1960–62) • Valcareggi (1962–64) • Chiappella (1964–67) • Ferrero (1967–68) • Bassi (1968) • Pesaola (1968–71) • Pugliese (1971) • Liedholm (1971–73) • Radice (1973–74) • Rocco (1974–75) • Mazzone (1975–77) • Mazzoni (1977–78) • Chiappella (1978) • Carosi (1978–81) • De Sisti (1981–85) • Valcareggi (1985) • Agroppi (1985–86) • Bersellini (1986–87) • Eriksson (1987–89) • Giorgi (1989–90) • Graziani (1990) • Lazaroni (1990–91) • Radice (1991–93) • Agroppi (1993) • Chiarugi (1993) • Ranieri (1993–97) • Malesani (1997–98) • Trapattoni (1998–2000) • Terim (2000–01) • Chiarugi (2001) • Mancini (2001) • Bianchi (2001–02) • Chiarugi (2002) • Fascetti (2002) • Vierchowod (2002) • Cavasin (2002–03) • Mondonico (2003–04) • Buso (2004–05) • Zoff (2005) • Prandelli (2005–)

v • d • e Italy squad - 2002 FIFA World Cup

1 Buffon • 2 Panucci • 3 Maldini • 4 Coco • 5 Cannavaro • 6 Zanetti • 7 Del Piero • 8 Gattuso • 9 Inzaghi • 10 Totti • 11 Doni • 12 Abbiati • 13 Nesta • 14 Di Biagio • 15 Iuliano • 16 Di Livio • 17 Tommasi • 18 Delvecchio • 19 Zambrotta • 20 Montella • 21 Vieri • 22 Toldo • 23 Materazzi • Coach: Trapattoni

v • d • e

S.L. Benfica – Managers

Gourlade (1904–08) • Damião (1908–26) • dos Reis (1926–29) • John (1929–31) • dos Reis (1931–34) • Gonçalves (1934–35) • Hertzka (1935–39) • Biri (1939–47) • Hertzka (1947–48) • Smith (1948–52) • Zozaya (1952–53) • Ribeiro dos Reis (1953) • Valdivieso (1954) • Glória (1954–59) • Guttmann (1959–62) • Riera (1962–63) • Czeizler (1963–64) • Schwartz (1964–65) • Guttmann (1965–66) • Riera (1966–67) • Cabrita (1967–68) • Glória (1968–70) • Hagan (1970–73) • Cabrita (1973–74) • Pavić (1974–75) • Wilson (1975–76) • Mortimore (1976–79) • Wilson (1979–80) • Baróti (1980–82) • Eriksson (1982–84) • Csernai| (1984–85) • Mortimore (1985–87) • Skovdahl (1987) • Toni (1987–89) • Eriksson (1989–92) • Ivić (1992) • Toni (1992–94) • Artur Jorge (1994–95) • Wilson (1995–96) • Autuori (1996–97) • Manuel José (1997) • Wilson (1997) • Souness (1997–99) • Heynckes (1999–00) • Mourinho (2000) • Toni (2000–02) • Ferreira (2002) • Camacho (2002–04) • Trapattoni (2004–05) • Koeman (2005–06) • Santos (2006–07) • Camacho (2007–08) • Chalana (2008) • Flores (2008–)

v • d • e

VfB Stuttgart – Managers

Baluses (1963–65) • Seybold (1965) • Gutendorf (1965–66) • Sing (1966–67) • Baumann (1967–69) • Seybold (1969–70) • Zebec (1970–72) • Bögelein (1972) • Eppenhoff (1972–74) • Millinger (1974) • Sing (1974–75) • Sztani (1975–76) • Bögelein (1976) • Sundermann (1976–79) • Buchmann (1979–80) • Sundermann (1980–82) • Benthaus (1982) • Barić (1985–86) • Entenmann (1986) • Coordes (1986–87) • Haan (1987–90) • Entenmann (1990) • Daum (1990–93) • Röber (1993–95) • Sundermann (1995) • Fringer (1995–96) • Löw (1996–98) • Schäfer (1998) • Rolff (1998) • Adrion (1999) • Rangnick (1999–2001) • Magath (2001–04) • Sammer (2004–05) • Trapattoni (2005–06) • Veh (2006–)

v • d • e

FC Red Bull Salzburg – current squad

1 Ochs • 2 Bodnár • 3 Dudić • 6 Kovač • 7 Zickler • 8 Pamić • 9 Nelisse • 10 Vonlanthen • 11 Ježek • 16 Piták • 17 Miyamoto • 18 Meyer • 19 Rakić • 21 Janko • 22 Ilić • 23 Sekagya • 24 Leitgeb • 27 Janočko • 28 Aufhauser • 29 Ngwat-Mahop • 30 Özcan • 32 Prenn • 33 Arzberger • Traoui • Boussaidi • Öbster • Gercaliu • Traoui • Tchoyi • Coach: Co Adriaanse

If we have that approach, I would suggest one collapse box for "managers" positions, one for "Championship" squads, and one for the current squad.

v • d • e

Giovanni Trapattoni manager positions

v • d • e

Italy national football team – Managers

v • d • e

Republic of Ireland national football team – Managers

* =Between 1924 and 1936 the team was known as the Irish Free State
**=In a caretaker role

v • d • e

A.C. Milan – Managers

Kilpin (1900–06) • Angeloni (1906–07) • Technical commission (1907–10) • Camperio (1910–11) • Technical commission (1911–14) • Moda (1915–22) • Oppenheim (1922–24) • Pozzo (1924–26) • Moda (1926) • Burgess (1926–28) • König (1928–31) • Bánás (1931–33) • Viola (1933–34) • Baloncieri (1934–37) • Garbutt (1937) • Felsner (1937–38) • Viola (1938–40) • Ara (1940–41) • Magnozzi (1941–43) • Santagostino (1943–45) • Baloncieri (1946) • Bigogno (1946–49) • Czeizler (1949–52) • Gren (1952) • Sperone (1952–53) • Guttmann (1953–54) • Busini (1954) • Puricelli (1954–56) • Viani (1957–60) • Todeschini (1960–61) • Rocco (1961–63) • Carniglia (1963–64) • Liedholm (1963–66) • Cattozzo (1966) • Silvestri (1966–67) • Rocco (1966–72) • Maldini (1973–74) • Trapattoni (1974) • Giagnoni (1974–75) • Rocco (1975) • Barison (1975–76) • Trapattoni (1976) • Marchioro (1976–77) • Rocco (1977) • Liedholm (1977–79) • Giacobini (1979–81) • Galbiati (1981) • Radice (1981–82) • Galbiati (1982) • Zagatti (1982) • Castagner (1982–84) • Galbiati (1984) • Liedholm (1984–87) • Capello (1987) • Sacchi (1987–91) • Capello (1991–96) • Tabárez (1996) • Morini (1996–97) • Sacchi (1997) • Capello (1997–98) • Zaccheroni (1998–2001) • Maldini (2001) • Terim (2001) • Ancelotti (2001–)

v • d • e

F.C. Internazionale Milano – Managers

Fossati (1909–20) • Resegotti (1920–22) • Spotiswood (1922–24) • Schiedler (1924–26) • Weisz (1926–28) • Viola (1928–29) • Weisz (1929–31) • Tóth (1931–32) • Garbutt (1932–34) • Feldmann (1934–36) • Carraro (1936) • Castellazzi (1936–38) • Cargnelli (1938–40) • Peruchetti (1940) • Zamberletti (1941) • Fiorentini (1941–42) • Ferrari (1942–45) • Carcano (1945–46) • Nutrizio (1946) • Meazza (1947–48) • Carcano (1948) • Astley (1948) • Cappelli (1949–50) • Olivieri (1950–52) • Foni (1952–1955) • Campatelli (1955) • Meazza (1955–56) • Frossi (1956) • Ferrero (1957) • Meazza (1957) • Carver (1957–58) • Bigogno (1958) • Campatelli (1959–60) • Achilli (1960) • Cappelli (1960) • Herrera (1960–68) • Foni (1968–69) • Herrera (1969–71) • Invernizzi (1971–73) • Masiero (1973) • Herrera (1973) • Masiero (1974) • Luis Suárez (1974–75) • Chiappella (1976–77) • Bersellini (1977–82) • Marchesi (1982–83) • Radice (1983–84) • Castagner (1984–86) • Corso (1986) • Trapattoni (1986–91) • Orrico (1991) • Luis Suárez (1992) • Bagnoli (1992–1994) • Marini (1994) • Bianchi (1994–95) • Luis Suárez (1995) • Hodgson (1995–97) • Castellini (1997) • Simoni (1997–98) • Lucescu (1999) • Castellini (1999) • Hodgson (1999) • Lippi (1999–2001) • Tardelli (2001) • Cúper (2001–03) • Verdelli (2003) • Zaccheroni (2003–04) • Mancini (2004–08) • Mourinho (2008–)

v • d • e

Juventus F.C. – Managers

v • d • e

FC Bayern Munich – Managers

Čajkovski (1963–68) • Zebec (1968–70) • Lattek (1970–75) • Cramer (1975–77) • Lóránt (1977–79) • Csernai (1979–83) • Saftig (1983) • Lattek (1983–87) • Heynckes (1987–91) • Lerby (1991–92) • Ribbeck (1992–93) • Beckenbauer (1994) • Trapattoni (1994–95) • Rehhagel (1995–96) • Beckenbauer (1996) • Trapattoni (1996–98) • Hitzfeld (1998–2004) • Magath (2004–07) • Hitzfeld (2007–08 (current)) • Klinsmann (2008–)

v • d • e

Cagliari Calcio – Managers

v • d • e

ACF Fiorentina – Managers

v • d • e

S.L. Benfica – Managers

v • d • e

VfB Stuttgart – Managers

v • d • e

Giovanni Trapattoni championship squads

v • d • e Italy squad - 1962 FIFA World Cup

1 Buffon • 2 Losi • 3 Radice • 4 Salvadore • 5 Maldini • 6 Trapattoni • 7 Mora • 8 Maschio • 9 Altafini • 10 Sivori • 11 Menichelli • 12 Mattrel • 13 Albertosi • 14 Rivera • 15 Sormani • 16 Robotti • 17 Pascutti • 18 David • 19 Janich • 20 Tumburus • 21 Ferrini • 22 Bulgarelli • Coach: Mazza & Ferrari

v • d • e Italy squad - 2002 FIFA World Cup

1 Buffon • 2 Panucci • 3 Maldini • 4 Coco • 5 Cannavaro • 6 Zanetti • 7 Del Piero • 8 Gattuso • 9 Inzaghi • 10 Totti • 11 Doni • 12 Abbiati • 13 Nesta • 14 Di Biagio • 15 Iuliano • 16 Di Livio • 17 Tommasi • 18 Delvecchio • 19 Zambrotta • 20 Montella • 21 Vieri • 22 Toldo • 23 Materazzi • Coach: Trapattoni

v • d • e

FC Red Bull Salzburg – current squad

Hopefully like this. Peanut4 (talk) 00:59, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes I agree with that, except we need to get rid of v.d.e on the super-collapse boxes because it has no purpose, and we need to get rid of the awful violety colour, maybe using different colours for international and club. I would also suggest calling the international one Giovanni Trapattoni international squads rather than championship squads for clarity. Anyone else have a view? E P 01:10, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Too many boxes is just distracting, so I like the super-collapse boxes, but think it should only be split in two - one for managerial roles, one for player roles (is that what you mean by Championship squads) I don't object to a current squad being tacked on the bottom, but don't really see why it can't simply be included in super-collapse box.--ClubOranje^Talk 07:41, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree that it should be split into club squads and international squads (whether as a player or a manager), with the manager's current squad (if a club manager) outside the supercollapse box. – Pee Jay 07:46, 26 May 2008 (UTC) The system that Peanut suggested is fine. – Pee Jay 07:47, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Really like the idea. Ofc there have to be a specific number for when you colapse them. Oranje, well it's probably because the current squad is current, the other templates are "past" (the exception being Current club managers) ← chan dler 08:03, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Understand that, but the notability factor is that one has managed (played for) the organisation, and the squad template is there as a quick ref, still easily accessible. Granted it is likely noted in the text, but currency has nothing to do with it really - encyclopedia, not news and all that. As stated, don't object to being separate, but...--ClubOranje^Talk 08:25, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Just have to ask another thing i thought about, is there a guideline or something in with order they should be placed? I'm pretty sure I've seen articles with both oldest 2 newest and newst 2 oldest. ← chan dler 08:06, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Frankly, I really don't see the need for yet another navbox. Does anyone actually use them or are they for decoration. It seems to me to be a bit of fancruft; I doubt they are used as a navigational tool. I would also strongly suggest that we turn off the colouring for them, or at least try and make the colours accessible. Some pages are now incredibly garish. Woody (talk) 10:41, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

I have to say I use the squad lists for navigational tools. Peanut4 (talk) 11:10, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Same here, I also use template for navigation. Giant Snowman 11:20, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

So you find this conglomerate a useful navigational tool? A template for every two years? Woody (talk) 11:23, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree, which is why I brought that point up above. It's the current squad lists I find the most useful navigational tool. Peanut4 (talk) 11:30, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

I wasn't really talking about current squad lists, or manager lists for that matter, simply the Euro/World Cup/Other tournaments ones. Anyway, they are up at TFD now anyway. (See below section). Woody (talk) 11:34, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

If the Michael Owen Links were super-collapsed, I would have no problem at all, people who don't like them wouldn't ever even have to look at them. I have used the World Cup navoboxes as useful navigational tools, but anyone who claims that it's even possible to use something like {{Vauxhall Motors F.C. squad}} as a navigational tool needs their head testing. IMHO unmaintained current squads are far far worse than Euro squads because they contain misinformation, players move on and players move in, a current squad that was current in October 2007 is not a current squad, it's misleading. How is it we are allowing unmaintained navboxes for teams full of non-notable players, but barring accurate squad details for the second highest tier of international football? Surely there's something wrong here? E P 13:02, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

The Vauxhall Motors squad is pathetic. What's the point? You can only flick between two players. That is surely a template perfect for TfD? Peanut4 (talk) 13:11, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Super-collapse may well be the route to go. I would definitely break them up into areas, time to bring it to a vote? CorleoneSerpicoMontana (talk) 13:42, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

I think a vote is extraordinarily premature; the thread hasn't been open 24 hours yet. Let a consensus form or not, then go to a vote. If you do continue to vote, I suggest an addition of ":3. Tackle the use of navboxes and mitigate the need for these in the first place. Woody (talk) 14:11, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't think the vote is premature, it was discussed over a month ago here on a page which was directly linked here. Super-collapse templates have been in general use on Wikipedia on articles such as Giovanni Trapattoni since early May, and the use of these templates cuts out the problem of huge piles of navboxes, which would be difficult to directly combat in Trapattoni's case without deleting the manager templates. E P 14:33, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

I know about that discussion, I was in it, I was talking about this discussion, which has been open for only a few hours. I simply think we are hiding the problem of navboxes, not tackling the actual issue. Hence why I more-or-less abandoned this particular project a while-back. Woody (talk) 14:45, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Are you saying that you more-or-less abandoned this project because there are too many navboxes? or did I misinterpret what you said? How do you propose we directly tackle the problem? As far as I see it there would be no support for deleting World Cup navboxes, no support for deleting top level current squads, little support for deleting managerial position navboxes, probably a lot of support for deleting unmaintained current squads and those virtually useless non-league current squads. That would reduce the pile by one, but only on articles that only have one navbox anyway. Once we have got some kind of consensus on the super-collapse issue I will propose a lower limit for current squad navboxes and managerial position navboxes (club in a fully professional league would seem a sensible cut-off) and a mandatory deletion policy for misleading and unmaintained current squads. E P 14:59, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

I abandoned it because no-one is tackling the actual issues, and because this project is now little more than a clique of fans separate from everyone else. All I see is hot air, and votes, with little consensus. This project now spends more time on debating notability, moaning about WP:ATHLETE, and trying to hide problematic navboxes, than it does improve its articles such as Georgi Kinkladze. Woody (talk) 15:06, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

I disagree Woody (but also agree at the same time). I do see the WP:FOOTY as a bit of a clique, but we do build consensus. The problem is the project only represents a small fraction of the editors, who edit football articles, and quite often they have their own opinions and will revert edits against policy. What we need is to build policy, and store them on pages on the WP:FOOTY pages so they can easily be referred back to. Peanut4 (talk) 15:17, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

OK, you don't like debate about notability criteria, neither do I but the place for it should be here, not on each individual AfD over and over again. But back to the issue of navboxes, what is your alternative? how do you propose we get rid of the navboxes you dislike? and which navboxes would you keep? E P 15:22, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Peanut4 that we need the discussions, I just don't see why they have to be re-hashed every other day. The initial posts at this discussion summed it up perfectly. What I suggest is: remove the optional colour parameter, make them uniform and accessible to all. Delete the non-world-cup templates, delete the templates that serve no navigational purpose, i.e. Tier 3 and below whose contents consist of black-links. Then, go get every article in those navboxes upto featured status.

I think it is of note that you won't find the talk archive I link to above in the talkpage archives; no-one has bothered to update them. You will find a three month old featured nomination in the "Articles needing a review" section which no-one has taken down since its closure, nor been bothered to comment on. Everyone seems to have forgotten that we are here for the content, not for a bunch of garish navboxes. Woody (talk) 15:38, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

I'd say, we're digressing a little. But I suggested to store the decisions away somewhere easy ot find, so that we don't re-hash them as regularly as it seems at the moment. And I apologise, because it was me, who started this debate.

As for writing articles, we all have our certain areas we tend to concentrate on. But when you look at the importance rating of Football articles, I would expect some high importance articles are forgotten about because they tend to be central articles, e.g. the poor state of The Football League. Yes Premier League, FIFA World Cup and importantly Association football are all featured, but how would a suggestion of re-starting the "Collaboration of the month" article go down for those important articles? Peanut4 (talk) 15:45, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Super-collapse !vote

Proposal: Any article that includes more than three navboxes should be super-collapsed

Options

OK this is a bit complicated, some articles already use the super-collapse template in a different way to the proposal above.

1a. All navboxes and succession boxes go into one supercollapse template as is already used on the Trapattoni article

Giovanni Trapattoni Navigation boxes and awards

v • d • e Italy squad - 1962 FIFA World Cup

1 Buffon • 2 Losi • 3 Radice • 4 Salvadore • 5 Maldini • 6 Trapattoni • 7 Mora • 8 Maschio • 9 Altafini • 10 Sivori • 11 Menichelli • 12 Mattrel • 13 Albertosi • 14 Rivera • 15 Sormani • 16 Robotti • 17 Pascutti • 18 David • 19 Janich • 20 Tumburus • 21 Ferrini • 22 Bulgarelli • Coach: Mazza & Ferrari

v • d • e

Italy national football team – Managers

v • d • e

Republic of Ireland national football team – Managers

* =Between 1924 and 1936 the team was known as the Irish Free State
**=In a caretaker role

v • d • e

A.C. Milan – Managers

v • d • e

F.C. Internazionale Milano – Managers

v • d • e

Juventus F.C. – Managers

v • d • e

FC Bayern Munich – Managers

v • d • e

Cagliari Calcio – Managers

v • d • e

ACF Fiorentina – Managers

v • d • e Italy squad - 2002 FIFA World Cup

1 Buffon • 2 Panucci • 3 Maldini • 4 Coco • 5 Cannavaro • 6 Zanetti • 7 Del Piero • 8 Gattuso • 9 Inzaghi • 10 Totti • 11 Doni • 12 Abbiati • 13 Nesta • 14 Di Biagio • 15 Iuliano • 16 Di Livio • 17 Tommasi • 18 Delvecchio • 19 Zambrotta • 20 Montella • 21 Vieri • 22 Toldo • 23 Materazzi • Coach: Trapattoni

v • d • e

S.L. Benfica – Managers

v • d • e

VfB Stuttgart – Managers

Awards and achievements
Preceded by Bob Paisley	UEFA Cup Winning Coach 1976–77	Succeeded by Kees Rijvers
Preceded by Joe Fagan	European Cup Winning Coach 1984–85	Succeeded by Emerich Jenei
Preceded by Dino Zoff	UEFA Cup Winning Coach 1990–91	Succeeded by Louis van Gaal
Preceded by Louis van Gaal	UEFA Cup Winning Coach 1992–93	Succeeded by Giampiero Marini
Sporting positions
Preceded by Dino Zoff	Italy national football team manager 2000–2004	Succeeded by Marcello Lippi
Preceded by Matthias Sammer	VfB Stuttgart manager 2005–2006	Succeeded by Armin Veh

1b. Super collapse into two sections, excluding current squad. As proposed

Giovanni Trapattoni manager positions

v • d • e

Italy national football team – Managers

v • d • e

Republic of Ireland national football team – Managers

* =Between 1924 and 1936 the team was known as the Irish Free State
**=In a caretaker role

v • d • e

A.C. Milan – Managers

v • d • e

F.C. Internazionale Milano – Managers

v • d • e

Juventus F.C. – Managers

v • d • e

FC Bayern Munich – Managers

v • d • e

Cagliari Calcio – Managers

v • d • e

ACF Fiorentina – Managers

v • d • e

S.L. Benfica – Managers

v • d • e

VfB Stuttgart – Managers

Giovanni Trapattoni international squads

v • d • e Italy squad - 1962 FIFA World Cup

1 Buffon • 2 Losi • 3 Radice • 4 Salvadore • 5 Maldini • 6 Trapattoni • 7 Mora • 8 Maschio • 9 Altafini • 10 Sivori • 11 Menichelli • 12 Mattrel • 13 Albertosi • 14 Rivera • 15 Sormani • 16 Robotti • 17 Pascutti • 18 David • 19 Janich • 20 Tumburus • 21 Ferrini • 22 Bulgarelli • Coach: Mazza & Ferrari

v • d • e Italy squad - 2002 FIFA World Cup

1 Buffon • 2 Panucci • 3 Maldini • 4 Coco • 5 Cannavaro • 6 Zanetti • 7 Del Piero • 8 Gattuso • 9 Inzaghi • 10 Totti • 11 Doni • 12 Abbiati • 13 Nesta • 14 Di Biagio • 15 Iuliano • 16 Di Livio • 17 Tommasi • 18 Delvecchio • 19 Zambrotta • 20 Montella • 21 Vieri • 22 Toldo • 23 Materazzi • Coach: Trapattoni

v • d • e

FC Red Bull Salzburg – current squad

1c. The same proposal as 1b except there is a third super-collapsed template for stuff like honours and awards (which would include all honour templates such as FIFA 100 and all succession boxes)

2. Another alternate super-collapse proposal.

3. Reject the use of super-collapse templates.

!Voting

Support 1c E P 14:04, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
Support 1c CorleoneSerpicoMontana (talk) 14:05, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
Support 1b (Though I don't think they should be used when a player has 5 or fewer boxes) ← chan dler 14:18, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
Support 1c Agree with above in that maybe only used when over ceratin number of boxes Pbradbury (talk) 14:39, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps we could set a supercollapse threshold, any more than 2 managerial, 2 international squad or 2 honours/awards templates or succession boxes and they go into the relevant super-collased templates? That way we get an absolute maximum of six un-super-collapsed navboxes/sucession boxes, which would be pretty rare. E P 14:48, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Sounds like a good solution. Pbradbury (talk) 15:09, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

I think a threshold for 3 boxes is way to low. ← chan dler 15:36, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Support 1C. Good proposal, still I think we should make another one regarding non-FIFA World Cup squad templates. By the way I also think 3 boxes threshold is too low. - Darwinek (talk) 15:51, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
Support 1c. Agree 3 box threshold is too low, but leave that debate for another day.Londo 06 15:54, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
Support 1c. Giant Snowman 18:24, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
Weakish support 1c. But delete the succession boxes. Peanut4 (talk) 18:32, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

How about deleting all the succession boxes and all the real vanity templates such as {{World Soccer Magazine 100 Greatest}}, {{World Soccer Magazine World Player of the Year}}, {{IFFHS World's Best Goalkeeper}}, {{Major League Soccer MVP Award}} so we can do away with the super-collapsible awards section altogether? These are definitely clutter in my book and should already be adequately covered in the relevant articles. E P 18:45, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

I tend to agree with that suggestion. Just take a look at the previous example of Michael Owen. Are all those really necessary? Some can be adequately covered by a category, because it's simply 100 randomly selected people. At least the BBC Sports Personality is an ordered list. Peanut4 (talk) 18:48, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

I'd agree with the deletion of those navboxes, but I'm sure you'd cause uproar amongst the American editors if you tried deleting anything to do with the MLS. Yet another case of us Europeans trying to impose ourselves on them, I'd imagine. – Pee Jay 18:51, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Support 1b - Succession boxes should go too. – Pee Jay 18:51, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
Support 1c - seems like a good solution. matt91486 (talk) 20:29, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
- I do strongly disagree with getting rid of at least the MLS MVP box, though. The MLS has to sort of bridge the gap between football convention and realizing the differences of the sport in the United States, and the MVP in American sports is a huge deal. The others, I'm less adamant about. matt91486 (talk) 20:31, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

PeeJay isn't suggesting getting rid of the info altogether. Simply put the info in the article, and get rid of the navbox. It's not anti-MLS, since he suggests similar other navboxes be deleted. Peanut4 (talk) 20:37, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Oh, I know it's not anti-MLS. I just think it needs to remain a convention of American sports articles even if it's not necessarily a standard of football articles. I wish the MLS were just set up the same way as the European leagues, but it's not, unfortunatey, so it helps to keep things together. matt91486 (talk) 03:10, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Supprt 1c Eddie6705 (talk) 22:30, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
Supprt 1b To get rid of succession boxes. Some editors, for example for articles related to Turkish football use both manager templated and succession boxes, and revert all your tentative to delete them, using the argument that they are in many articles. See here the article about Branko Stanković (That's ridiculous, isn't it?) and the history page [4].--Latouffedisco (talk) 10:01, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
Support 1b One proposed grouping make sence Gnevin (talk) 10:56, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
Support 1b Succession boxes should go too. And vanity boxes as per EP suggestion above. Personally I think a magazine vote for player ofthe year is worth nothing. put it in their article, but don't give it more status than it deserves--ClubOranje^Talk 11:47, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
1C Alexsanderson83 12:41, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
Support collapsible templates, as long as it is not used as an excuse to add more unnecessary templates to the article just because they seem to be invisible. Neier (talk) 13:45, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
1c Fronsdorf (talk) 18:28, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Conclusion

Right, it looks to me like there is a good deal of support for the use of the super-collapse navbox. Something between 1b. and 1c. although I can't see much likleyhood of any player having enough vanity navboxes to warrant a super-collaped awards template after I get around to TfDing the magazine award templates etc. I suggest we start gently rolling it out as and when we come across articles with lots of navboxes, no strict threshold, just common sense. Better to do it this way than rigorously enforcing compliance. I would say that we should stick to the layout International squads collapse bar top, managerial positions second (if any) and current squad at the bottom. It would be good if we were consistent. If anyone has any last minute opposition please comment below. E P 22:47, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Wikinews invitation

Wikinews needs people to write news and match reports for Football (Soccer). To sign-up, please go here. Please let me know if and when you sign-up here. Kingjeff (talk) 15:01, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Gareth Barry

Hi, I'd appreciate it if someone could take a look at the article and what I guess you could call an edit war and weigh in with his opinions. Yonatan ^talk 18:55, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Not like a real war. However, my interpretation of This transfer discussion is there is no consensus for inclusion of transfer rumour or speculation. Remove the rumour and politely point out consensus policy. I've added a note to discussion page too.--ClubOranje^Talk 04:14, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Noticed that in the last hour and a bit there's been at least five edits made which could probably be considered vandalism. Not sure if anything needs to be done but I though i'd better let someone know anyway. Exxy (talk) 14:47, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Chris McGroarty (Scottish footballer)

Should the Chris McGroarty (Scottish footballer) article be moved to Chris McGroarty? As there aren't any other notable Chris McGroarty's at the present time, so the 'Scottish footballer' tag isn't necessary. Ck12 (talk) 16:10, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Yep. ArtVandelay13 (talk) 16:17, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

On the flipside, would anyone object to me moving John Ritchie to John Ritchie (English footballer)? I created John Ritchie (Scottish footballer) earlier today and there are now five on the disamb page - I doubt there is enough to clearly justify the English footballer having the simple named page ahead of the disamb entry. •Oranje•·Talk 14:34, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Nope, go for it! Giant Snowman 17:32, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

After moving a page, please also edit the links that go into the page (by clicking on the "What links here" on the left hand side). Chanheigeorge (talk) 22:33, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Loan start

Tom Heaton has signed on loan for next season at Cardiff. Should he be included in the current squad now or not until say 1 July? Kosack (talk) 21:33, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Now is fine if the deal is confirmed- everyone's 2007-08 season is over. ArtVandelay13 (talk) 10:16, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

cld be fine to add a note about it there --StaraBlazkova (talk) 10:32, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

The key phrase is "next season". Next season starts on 1st July. The FA is very restrictive on what matches may be played in the close season (effectively the month of June). So wait. By all means add some prose to that article about the intention. Kevin McE (talk) 10:34, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

I think waiting to 1st July would be correct, but we'd be fighting a losing battle trying to keep to it. - fchd (talk) 10:41, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

We could also add a subsection "New signings". I've come across it in a number of articles, and it solves a lot of problems. A ecis^Brievenbus 11:51, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

The "New signings" section idea has been looked at here a while ago, and it was basically decided that any such information should be restricted to articles about the club's season or an article containing list of transfers. – Pee Jay 12:04, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

In any case, the transfer window doesn't open until 1st June... •Oranje•·Talk 14:32, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Or even 1 July. – Pee Jay 17:32, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Really? Wow, that means another month of reverting early transfer moves then :-( •Oranje•·Talk 12:14, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

The real template clutter

I have nominated the first three vanity templates for deletion here, feel free to comment. If there is consensus for deletion I will root out some more. E P 15:02, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

It's perhaps of note that these basketball templates are up for deletion [[5]]. It sounds like the nominator will nominate similar World Cup roster templates for deletion if these go through, so it might be useful to be preemptive and discuss the issue now, even if it's basketball related. matt91486 (talk) 03:02, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Standard for the finals articles?

I was sitting here, looking through some articles and noticed the massive differences in UEFA Cup finals, UEFA Cup Winners' Cup finals and European Cup and Champions League finals. As you can see they are have different formats (CL and CWC looking pretty similar though). I would suggest that they (and Copa Libertadores, CONCACAF Champions League, AFC Champions League, CAF Champions League, OFC Champions League which don't have templates for their finals, or a own article but the lists are there) use one single format. Using the format the CL template have I created {{Fb finals}} (which ofc can be changed if the current format isnt the consensus) with a demonstration of the first 2 and lastest 2 of the three UEFA competitions here User:Chandler/UEFA_Finals. It might not be the ultimate thing for finals with two legs and replays etc... But maybe something extra can be made for those, that's just a first draft so to speak. ← chan dler 22:25, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

First thing I noticed, the years need endashes, i.e. 1955–56. Peanut4 (talk) 22:30, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Do we really need them? I mean the articles are 1955-56, and I don't know if there's a easy way to convert -'s to endashes. As I used [[{{{competition}}} {{{season}}}|{{{season}}}]] to fast link the seasons don't know if there would be a easy way to fix that to endashes ← chan dler 22:35, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Err, yes. See WP:DASH. Peanut4 (talk) 22:39, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, doesnt WP:DASH really say that the articles should be under 1955–56 and if they were, there would be no problem. But now European_Cup_1955–56 does not exist, nor is it a redirect. ← chan dler 23:02, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

It's the bit above the naming policy you need to read. The point really is if we're going to use the templates, then they need to be right. You won't pass an article at FA or FL if it doesn't have the correct dashes. I'm pretty sure there's a way of correcting the template, because other templates are similar, but I don't know how to do it myself. Peanut4 (talk) 23:10, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Found one. The template {{English football seasons}} uses such a way of using dashes. I still don't understand the code though. Peanut4 (talk) 23:13, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Hmm so... I think I've fixed it now. Though now one problem is let's say it would be used for a competition that was spring-fall and not fall-spring (Football Competition 2008 for example), though I guess this should be pretty easy to fix ← chan dler 23:49, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Nice work. Just realised another one. Is the "nationality line" an optional or necessary criteria? Obviously it only needs to be optional, if the template is used for domestic competitions. Peanut4 (talk) 23:57, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Fix'd now ← chan dler 00:16, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Now its also fixed so you can use it for spring-fall competitions ← chan dler 10:36, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Page move

Can someone with the right tools move Graham Mitchell (footballer) to Graham Mitchell? It seems the latter is protected and there is no need for the former page's disambiguation. Peanut4 (talk) 00:26, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Nothing can be done. Request for move please. Raymond "Giggs" K o 04:35, 2 June 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Giggs for Temporary (talk • contribs)

Actually, it can be done (as an uncontroversial move) - I just have! пﮟოьεԻ 5 7 07:11, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for you help. Very much appreciated. Peanut4 (talk) 14:38, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

U18 international tournaments

Hi. What do members of the WikiProject think about the notability of 2005 UEFA-CAF Meridian Cup and 2007 UEFA-CAF Meridian Cup? I'd suggest that the main article is probably notable, but one for each iteration too? --Dweller (talk) 14:16, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Category standardization

Sorry for throwing so much out there at once, I've had a lot of free time the past day or so.

I've been looking through some of the football categories, and there doesn't seem to be a very standard way of looking at category names.

Some use footballers, some use players.
Some use periods in abbreviations, eg. F.C., some don't and just use FC or CD, etc.

Can we figure out a way to standardize this and then move all categories to the new set way? I honestly have no real personal preference on either question, but it's getting to be difficult to guess categories when making new player articles, especially for the Spanish leagues. I'd just like a standard system implemented. matt91486 (talk) 15:28, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

One thing that always jars for me is the use of Category:Wikipedia F.C. footballers, effectively 'football club footballers', which isn't very coherent. ArtVandelay13 (talk) 16:04, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

I think they should belong in two distinct sections, with each one having a variety of uses. First is Category:Wikilish footballers and Category:Wikiland international footballers. The other is Category:Wikitown F.C. players and Category:Wikileague players. As for the club using F.C. or FC, etc, it probably ought to be the clubname as used on the main article. Peanut4 (talk) 16:13, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Peanut's suggestions. Giant Snowman 16:37, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

I think that instead of Category:Wikiland international footballers it should be Category:Wikiland national football team players, to match the article on the national team of that country. – Pee Jay 19:51, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Why does it need to match the article name? x international footballers is a perfectly good name, much more intuitive than what you're proposing. ArtVandelay13 (talk) 20:02, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Fair enough. Can't argue with that. Just throwing it out there, tbh. – Pee Jay 20:35, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

That proposal sounds good to me. If there seems to be a general consensus on it, perhaps we can start getting the categories moved over in the next few days. matt91486 (talk) 06:49, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Templates

Several new non-FIFA World Cup templates were created, I have nominated them for deletion here. You can find there also a link to previous consensus about the templates. It is very likely that new templates will appear with upcoming Euro 2008 - all should be deleted per our consensus or the guideline should be changed by wide discussion and vote. Cheers. - Darwinek (talk) 10:32, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

If you look up stairs youll see a discussion going on...... ...... ← chan dler 13:02, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

That discussion is on how to present multiple navboxes in an article, and I don't see a prevailing view that we should suddenly start including navboxes for all the federation championships, just because we can make them seem to disappear. Neier (talk) 13:43, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

A number of the England templates may warrant attention on the name front as I created them out of the first creation, and so a move towards Euro 2000, Euro 2004, etc. replacing European Championships.Londo 06 16:46, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Article on "six plus five" proposal

I was thinking of writing an article on FIFA's "six plus five" proposal. It's caused quite a bit of political controversy given that it goes against the EU's free movement of workers rule. Would such an article be too newsy, or is it worth creating? JACO PLANE • 2008-05-27 13:14

Not necessarily by itself, but perhaps as part of an article on Foreign players in association football - this could detail all the arguments for/against, and past and existing rules in various countries. пﮟოьεԻ 5 7 13:19, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

I would have said that a section on the FIFA article and/or the article that Number57 suggested would be ideal, there's no real need for a seperate article. Giant Snowman 13:21, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

All right, so I'll get down to working on a Foreign players in association football article soon then. Does anyone have any good sources about the history of players moving abroad? JACO PLANE • 2008-05-27 19:04

The international career of Dutch forward Beb Bakhuys ended when he moved to France with FC Metz, I can't remember where I read that (maybe on the RSSSF source) but I have read it somewhere. Giant Snowman 21:23, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

This source states that the J.League has a quota of three foreign players. пﮟოьεԻ 5 7 21:44, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

I confirm Bep Bakhuys' international career ended when he moved to France. That was also the case of Swedish players in the 1950's when they moved abroad and also for most Yugoslavian players.--Latouffedisco (talk) 10:04, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Beb (not Bep) Bakhuys' career with the Netherlands was indeed cut short because he went abroad. Same for Faas Wilkes. I know the Dutch football association was staunchly opposed to professional football at the time, but I'm not sure whether the players were suspended because they were professional or because they didn't play in the Netherlands. Aecis·(away) ^talk 22:08, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Going to be collecting references on User:Jacoplane/Foreign players in association football, will get down to writing the actual article on Friday probably. JACO PLANE • 2008-05-28 10:32

See this 6+5 rule, I put it in category:FIFA because I couldn't think where else it should go. It definitly needs moving to a better name and some content adding on how the proposed rule conflicts with EU freedom of movement & anti-discrimination legislation E P 22:38, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Serie D

We need a template to tie in the Serie D seasons that have been detailed, just like the templates for Serie A, B, C1 and C2 seasons. Juve2000 (talk) 00:58, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

What kind of template are you talking about? If you mean we should make a single Serie D template with all the 168 league teams, my answer is "no, we don't need it, better to leave a template for each of the nine league rounds". --Angelo (talk) 13:29, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

I think he means something like {{The Football League Seasons}}. пﮟოьεԻ 5 7 14:14, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I meant the seasons template, not a team template. For example, Serie A's template is - Template:Serie A, and I would only include the seasons where we have created a detailed page for that season, and then edit it as necessary. I'll try to create it, but first I have to learn how these templates function. Juve2000 (talk) 15:30, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Just in case anyone else was going to bother, {{Serie D seasons}}. пﮟოьεԻ 5 7 15:49, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Categories: Wikipedia talk archives

Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football/Archive 20

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Contents

Turkish names for non-Turkish footballers

FA Cup Finals

Serie C2

Mayo League

Avram Grant

World Cup qualification sections on national team articles

Kinkladze peer review

Dejan Marić

England national football team results

Debut details

WP:RM on Association football in the ROI to Football (soccer) in the Republic of Ireland

Deportivo Saprissa World Tour 1959

No date of death

Histon F.C. peer review

Stephen Henderson (footballer)

Provisional squads infos on UEFA Euro 2008 squads

Euro 1968 template

Super-collapse template

Super-collapse !vote

Options

!Voting

Conclusion

Wikinews invitation

Gareth Barry

Chris McGroarty (Scottish footballer)

Loan start

The real template clutter

Standard for the finals articles?

Page move

U18 international tournaments

Category standardization

Templates

Article on "six plus five" proposal

Serie D

Views

Navigation

Interaction

Search