Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Video games/Article guidelines/Naming

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[edit] Video games naming convention

I feel that it's a naming convention for video game articles missing. We need some sort of rules for how to title video game articles, I'm seeing articles not being consistant in naming because it's no strict rules on this. What about it? Should a article covering a video game series derieved from a game with the same name (for example Age of Empires series/video game) be named "xxxx (series)", "xxxx series" or just "xxxx"? Should both articles be disambiged? Or just one of them? If so, which? --MrStalker talk 08:46, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

I would argue off the bat thay any "xxxx series" is bad form; it should be either "xxxx (series)" or "xxxx", depending.
If there's a naming conflict between the series name and the first game of the series (Ratchet and Clank vs Ratchet and Clank (series)), the series page should always be "xxxx (series)" (or "xxxx (video game series)" should there be confliect); the first game should never be disambiguated unless there's further naming conflict, at which point the first game should be "xxxx (video game)". Those are the easy cases.
Given naming policy, one should not really add a disambiguation to an article name unless it is necessary. Thus, if the series article can exist as "xxxx" while all games in the series are "yyyy n", then the series article should remain without the "(series)" (Ace Attorney vs Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney). --Masem 12:47, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
FYI, WikiProject Final Fantasy recently decided that Final Fantasy should be the series and the first game should be at Final Fantasy (video game); In the discussions,[1][2] almost no one seemed interested in the game occupying the non-paren name.
IMO, when there is a conflict between the game and series names and there is no other reason for a disambig page to hold the name, then unless the series is commonly referred to as "xxxx series" it should either be "xxxx (series)" and "xxxx" or "xxxx" and "xxxx (video game)" depending on the specifics of the particular case. Whichever one gets "xxxx" of course should have a hatnote pointing to the other meaning. Anomie 13:06, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
Ok, I agree there too. Great, let me think about this
There's two ways we can resolve this. One is, we force a rule in the case of series and individual game naming conflict that either one way or the other sites, but this is nearly always a bad idea; the other way is to go by a general guideline of naming that whatever is the more common use of the name is what should get the non-disamb. page. Above example of FF is perfect, as when you talk "Final Fantasy" without context, most people (to me) think the series, not the first game, but then if I talk "Metal Gear Solid", they assume the first game, and not the series. This should be discussed by editors.
Another consideration for the first game NOT getting disamb. is that the series name is usually a derivation of the trade name of the first game. Trade names (assuming no english barriers) get a bit more importance to the game, and since the first game in the series is the one that, by trade, gets that name and that name alone, it could be argued that the game should not be the disamb. title, while the series should.
I'm all for the following guidelines:
  1. If there's no conflict between first game and series name and any other name on WP, do not name for disamb. on either page (though it is fair to provide redirects from "xxxx (series)" and "xxxx (video game)" where appropriate.
  2. If there is naming conflict between either game or series and another WP artcle, spell out the disamb. for both as needed "(series)" or "(video game series)" if there is further conflict; "(video game)" or "(yyyy video game)" (y=year) if there is further conflict.
  3. If the series name alone is more significant/notable than the first game and no other naming conflicts exist, then the fist game gets disamb., the series should stand without disamb., the first game should be "xxxx (video game)"
  4. Otherwise, the series should be "xxxx (series)" and the first game is non-disamb. in the name
--Masem 13:32, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
FYI, regarding the Final Fantasy naming, take a look at this requested move debate, and this discussion about the same. The whole problem I'm talking about above lies within; there is to many different opinions about this. IMO, it's clear that the first game of a series should be named "xxxx (video game)" to disambiguate it from the series, since the series as a whole is most often what one thinks of when thinking of "xxxx", and should be prefered to have as the non-disambiguate article. However, the question if the series article should be named "xxxx" or "xxxx (series)" is not as clear to me. I'm leaning towards "xxxx (series)" just to fully disambiguate it from the first video game. --MrStalker talk 13:39, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
The discussion from January doesn't seem to have had anything come of it, and the one from April was discussed in the July discussion and the consensus was that consensus had changed since then. Anomie 14:33, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

I'd like to point out the possibility of using "franchise" instead of "series" sometimes. You might think it complicates things, but I believe it's sometimes better than series because it's more precise. Final Fantasy for instance is not a series (unless you only count the numbered games); it's a franchise that spans multiple media and doesn't have a set sequential order (The Spirits Within isn't the sequel or the prequel to Dirge of Cerberus for instance). On the contrary, Suikoden is a series and not a franchise since it spans only one media (video games, barring some minor novelizations) and the installments have a sequential order. Kariteh 14:28, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

To throw another case into the mix, what about a case where the first game has a subtitle that makes it unambiguous? Coincidentally, there's a current discussion about this at Talk:Halo (video game), which was just moved from Talk:Halo: Combat Evolved. — TKD::Talk 15:21, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
Ragarding Halo, if the game has an official subtitle, IMO, it should be used in the title of the article. The question is whether "Combat Evolved" is a subtitle or a tagline.
Regarding all other articles with similiar issues, there is two options to solve it:
Reach consensus at a case by case basis
OR
Create a guideline supported by the WikiProject Video games community
IMO, the latter one seems like the best. --MrStalker talk 15:42, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, there still seems to be some disagreement about the status of the "Combat Evolved" phrase, but the notion of subtitles in general was brought up, so I figured that I'd bring it up here.
As for whether a video game naming convention guideline is a good idea, I do think it's probably worth the effort, instruction creep notwithstanding, given that it's one of Wikipedia's stronger subjects at the moment. — TKD::Talk 16:11, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
The best way to keep it short and simple is to create a guideline so people don't have to do these discussions over and over and over and over again. --MrStalker talk 16:16, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
Is there some discussion in particular that you're trying to create this guideline to avoid? IMO, creating a guideline is unnecessary: If there is no disagreement, then there won't be a "discussion" for the guideline to avoid. If there is, then the discussion will happen anyway and your guideline will just give one side an opportunity to appeal to authority instead of discussing the actual situation. Anomie 20:38, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
Well, at first, no. But since you ask let me think... hm... I know one, I think you do to: You're reading it. </sarkasm> --MrStalker talk 01:08, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

To throw more fuel on the fire, book articles do not feature their subtitles. American Terrorist, for instance, is the title, not American Terrorist: Timothy McVeigh and the Oklahoma City Bombing. Subtitles could be used to when there is a naming conflict, like Halo. Lies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them doesn't include the subittle "A Fair and Balanced Look at the Right". I've been thinking of filing a request to simplify Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Blue Rescue Team and Red Rescue Team to just Pokémon Mystery Dungeon, based on the book convention. hbdragon88 22:50, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I support the proposal outlined by Masem, above. They seem to cover most/all of the bases properly, with the exception of the subtitles thing which I don't have a particular opinion on, outside of just using the most common name. Axem Titanium 16:11, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
Supporting this as well. In policy form: 1. Subtitles are not to be used. 2. The only exception to the above is a naming conflict. There, always use subtitles in favour of (book) or (video games). User:Krator (t c) 23:41, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
IMO, subtitles should be used. If not, i.g., "Universe at War: Earth Assault" would be "Universe at War", which I don't think would be good. --MrStalker talk 09:17, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
I have created a new page at Wikipedia:WikiProject Video games/Article guidelines/Naming with a proposal for a naming convention. --MrStalker talk 09:28, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
The whole "book articles don't use subtitles" is a bad example. Video games don't have subtitles that go on forever like books do. Also, often the subtiles are used to show that the game is a sequel and not the original. --SeizureDog 19:26, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
"Often"? Examples? I thought most games used "xxx 2" and the like to distinguish between sequels and originals. Anyway, I was just throwing it out there, not as if I supported it. hbdragon88 20:10, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
Ratchet & Clank: Up Your Arsenal, for one, Advance Wars: Dual Strike for another. Most of the Castlevania series too. I would modify the guidelines to state that if the game uses numerics and then a subtitle, the subtitle should be dropped, otherwise the sub should be used. --Masem 20:20, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
Done. User:Krator (t c) 20:28, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm not so familiar with creating guidelines, but I guess it would be a bit too bold for anyone of us involved in the discussion to call it rejected or accepted. That's up to an admin, right? --MrStalker talk 18:19, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

For determining consensus, wait a little until all major editing is done and involved parties agree. Then open up an RFC. Then wait until that is done, then determine consensus. No admin involvement is needed. User:Krator (t c) 18:33, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Arbitrary section break

IMO, the original version of this page was too prescriptivist (in particular, I think Final Fantasy IV (Nintendo DS) is a much better name for the remake than Final Fantasy IV (2007 video game)), and the current version doesn't really say anything. I've put together a version that tries to simply collect the consensus from previous discussions and common practice. Opinions? Anomie 20:59, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

I disagree that the console name is the best way to disamb. First and foremost, what do you do about disamb titles that span multiple systems? Generally, when there are two media items of the same format with the same name, the disamb is always on the year (Casino Royale for example). It is consistent to use that into video games. The other thing to consider is that with emulation, what may be a game made for one console won't apply if it is released on a completely different console later (eg, there's Sonic the Hedgehog (video game) and Sonic the Hedgehog (2006 game), but if I said Sonic the Hedgehog (Xbox 360 game) is that the new game, or the one in the XBLA? (Yes, technically the first Sonic should be renamed to include the year)
The only time that the console names should be included is if two completely separate games with the same name come out in the same year for two different consoles, then the console disamb. is the right one.--Masem 21:29, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
If the game is for multiple systems, then obviously don't use the console name for disambiguation. Years work well for films because often the year of release is the most obvious thing that we can clearly specify: Writer or Director are usually ignored unless the writer or director is extremely famous, and we cannot cleanly specify lead actors. For video games, platform or company (think Tetris, with Tengen versus Nintendo versus Microsoft versus who-knows-what) is often a better determining factor.
Regarding your "Sonic the Hedgehog" example, I think Sonic the Hedgehog (Xbox 360) could be clearly enough not referring to a Virtual Console-type emulation, and if there was really that much confusion a hatnote would be enough to clear it up. But that game is for multiple platforms anyway, and according to the article's lead people commonly use the year to disambiguate that particular game, so the whole example resembles a straw man.
As I mentioned, what I wrote is attempting to document current practice (since there is apparently a call for such documentation). And from the articles I've encountered, platform is used to disambiguate a number of remakes. Anomie 22:02, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
The StH was just a hypothetical example, because off the top of my head, there are no current examples but the potential exists.
I just don't see why we need to vary ourselves from other WP media articles by using consoles vs years. However, spot checking (on Crush) it could go either way: films, TV series and books are disamb with years, songs and albums with artist. What I would think we'd want to do is have guidelines where collisions in the rules (the exception cases) are hit more often than if the exceptions were made the typical. With multi-consoles game, there is much more of a stronger possibility that one will have to drop from the console name to the year, instead of the other case, where two games of the same name come out for different consoles in the same year). I understand how it's clearer to use the console, but this is part of why this entire guidelines discussion game up: we lack good naming standards for video games leading to a large splintering in the naming schemes. --Masem 22:15, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
How often does it come up at all? Do we have a list? Anomie 22:36, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
We need to settle the Japanese name thing before putting this up on RFC. Proposal: in principle, use the English name. If the Japanese name is requested, put it up on requested moves. If there has been no debate on the name, and the page is created under a Japanese name, anyone is free to move it to the English one.
The version in your sandbox reads like a personal reflection. It needs copy editing for style, but I agree with the principles. Except, of course, with the subtitle versus (video game) thing. What needs to be added, is that when disambiguating between two games (not series or non-game topics), the subtitle should be used. User:Krator (t c) 21:37, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
Copy editing is definitely needed and welcome. Subtitles for disambiguation are now mentioned. As for the Japanese versus English thing, I think you're forgetting to consider common usage. There is almost no mention of Seiken Densetsu 3 as "Secret of Mana 2" except when stating what it likely would have been titled if an English language version had been made. The first criterion must be common usage; I would prefer the second criterion (once common usage can't be determined) to be Wikipedia:Naming conventions#Use English words, but this discussion (other half here) clearly shows no consensus for that. Anomie 22:02, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
Well, Krator, you have basically slaughtered my original proposal.
I disagree with refering to a guideline of a subproject, instead merge that guideline with this one.
I disagree with not using subtitles, reasons see above. I don't see a reason not to include them. Policies and guidelines should be based on common practice, not the other way around. And the common practice is to use subtitles in the name (do I really need to make a list?).
I disagree with making the guideline less understandable and more complicated to comprehend then my original.
--MrStalker talk 21:58, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
I edited with the expectation that some of it would be reverted and changed. Feel free to do so. In fact, I would really like it. None of your original proposal is lost, it is all in the history. Something I disliked about the original is the focus on mods. User:Krator (t c) 22:18, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
Okey, good good. I see what you mean. I have done a major edit trying to incorporate both of our revisions into one, as well as some of the points at the Final Fantasy project's naming convention. I think the only real difference from your version in terms of meaning is that "subtitles are allowed if deemed appropriate". --MrStalker talk 13:57, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
I like the current version a lot, though the sentence on series/first game of the series disambiguation in my version was better in my opinion. Please compare the two and write what you think about it. User:Krator (t c) 14:02, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
I think your original version of that paragraph is a little difficult to understand, but I have changed the current version to have the same meaning as yours. Please tell if you agree. --MrStalker talk 14:20, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed Merge: Wikipedia:WikiProject Video games/Article guidelines

Subpage is unnecessary and will only make the page less accessible. This page is too short for it's own policy page. User:Krator (t c) 18:04, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

I know that, thus the subpage of Article guidelines. --MrStalker talk 21:53, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
...until the convention is accepted. --MrStalker talk 13:58, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Request for comment

Does anybody has any more comments on this naming convention? If, not perhaps it's a good idea to determine consensus and make it official. --MrStalker talk 11:15, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

I just read through it entirely as I copyedited. Looks good to me. — TKD::Talk 00:04, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
Looks good too; I added some recommendations for hatnotes and disamb pages, and for pre-titles (eg "John Woo Presents: Stranglehold") (same deal as subtitles). --Masem 03:52, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

General #2 seems to conflict with Wikipedia:Manual of Style (trademarks). I'm thinking that Buster Sword would be correct.--SeizureDog 04:00, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Is that actually a trademark, or just the name of a weapon in some game? Anomie 11:18, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
Quote from the guideline you cited: "Follow standard English text formatting and capitalization rules even if the trademark owner encourages special treatment" User:Krator (t c) 11:20, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
Yes, but standard English would say that a proper noun should have all non-article and preposition words capitalized. So the question becomes -- is it *a* Buster sword, or is it *the* Buster Sword. Trademarks are irrelevent to the issue. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ 11:26, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
My point was that "Buster sword" probably isn't a trademark (it doesn't seem to be listed at the USPTO, anyway), so Wikipedia:Manual of Style (trademarks) would not apply. Anomie 17:22, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
Buster sword is not a trademark, that's the point of the example. I'll change it to something more obvious. --MrStalker talk 07:57, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Page move?

Any reason this isn't at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (video games)? Pagrashtak 19:58, 18 October 2007 (UTC)