Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Tropical cyclones

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I just created this wikiproject, after several months of contemplating doing so. I hope everyone working on hurricane articles will get involved. I went ahead and wrote a bunch of guidelines, basically based on current practices...naturally since this is something I just wrote it doesn't necessarily represent community consensus and needs to be discussed. That discussion should probably go here for now...although eventually we may make these pages a little more structured. For a general TODO list, see the "tasks" item on the project page. Jdorje 23:17, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

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Tropical cyclones portal

Contents

[edit] Warnings template

I'm putting this here so we can easily copy/paste when we need to put warnings up:

===Warnings and watches===
{{HurricaneWarnings}}
{{seealso|Tropical cyclone warnings and watches}}
As of X p.m. EDT [[June 1]] (2100 UTC), the following warnings and watches were in effect:
*Coastal watches and warnings:
** A '''hurricane warning''' is in effect for:
*** x
** A '''hurricane watch''' is in effect for:
*** x
** A '''tropical storm warning''' is in effect for:
*** x
** A '''tropical storm watch''' is in effect for:
*** x
*Inland watches and warnings:
** x
* See the NHC's [dummylink latest public advisory on Hurricane X]
<div style="clear: both"></div>

Remove the coast/inland part if no inland ones exist. --Golbez 21:05, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] New small template

Currently the de-facto template for the storms in season articles is {{infobox hurricane small}}. This template has a few significant problems suggesting a redesign.

  1. Repetition: it is always used next to a level 3 header with the storm's common name.
  2. Inability to display more than RSMC info; only the SSHS category is shown. This is a particular problem for Australian storms.

I've created a new template using the fundamental layout of {{Infobox Hurricane}} and have an extensive test selection here. Due to the removal of padding around the image, the new template is actually smaller vertically even with two colour bars. It also uses the same parameters and scripting as Infobox Hurricane. The only thing of any substantial value lost is the ability to list all the storm's names in the header; but personally I think it is a change worth making.

Comments?--Nilfanion (talk) 01:10, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

I like it. We can live without not being able to list all the names in the header, and this solves the "single number dilemma" we had with the old template. --Coredesat 01:13, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
I rather liked the single number in the corner, but meh... Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 01:40, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
The problem with that is how to deal with Cyclone Larry?--Nilfanion (talk) 01:46, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
Hence the meh. Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 03:17, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
2007 Pacific typhoon season#Other storms This section in the typhoon articles is very clumsy. One way to resolve it is to put an optional note indicating where the measurements came from instead of calling it JTWC Tropical Storm Blah. Good kitty (talk) 21:58, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
Nice! While we're migrating we could finally finish deprecating {{storm pics}}. --Ajm81 06:51, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Follow-on: Further hacking at this deprecates {{infobox hurricane current}} too (in season articles), it also automatically switches the correct temp symbol now. I'll hack at {{Infobox Hurricane}} to add in the current functionality for storm articles.--Nilfanion (talk) 00:54, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Its live at {{Infobox Hurricane Small}}. I've added sketchy documentation. Note also I have removed current functionality - making this template do too much is a bad idea.--Nilfanion (talk) 23:06, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] NHEM Disimbiguation Page

I Feel That it would be benefical, if we had a disimbiguation page, that Contained Links to the Seasonal Pages on the main pages and all of the Advisories on the Talk Page, as im sure that other Editors do not realise when we have Storms in the Indian ocean and a storm at the same time in the WPAC for example. Also we have a Disimbiguation page for the SHEM storms so why not the NHEM Storms ? Jason Rees 01:33, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Need a PD image for this

Could someone make a version of this map with one of those Blue Marble maps? Also remember to include TCWC Port Moresby in Papua New Guinea (Solomon Sea and Gulf of Papua). Good kitty 18:45, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Remember the List_of_wettest_tropical_cyclones_by_country list page

I just made changes to 11 articles: the current Cuban top 10 rainiest tropical cyclones (including our newest GA article) plus the ST of 1982. If a tropical cyclone went anywhere near any of the countries on the list, it is a good idea to see if there is a relevant rainfall amount on this list that may or may not be within the NHC/JMA/etcetera TCR. This list is very well referenced, in some cases using references from the impacted country's national weather service/weather bureau, which is as good as you can get. Thank you for your time and attention. =) Thegreatdr (talk) 00:26, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the reminder - good idea, and keep up the good work. Hurricanehink (talk) 00:40, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Infobox Continuity Down under and across the world

A discussion on IRC and a little bit of browsing has revealed that a problem has occurred with the infoboxes on an Australian article. More specifically the 2004-05 Australian region cyclone season. It seems that some infoboxes are being given a SSHS cat based on 10-min mean in some places and 1-min mean in others. Here are the problems on this one page:

  • This tropical low has been rated as a Tropical Storm when its 10-min mean is only 30kt but its 1 min-mean was 35kt with the JWTC
  • [1] has been put down in the info box as being a Tropical Storm when its clearly a cat 3 (assuming SSHS scale for 10 min) but this might be just an error.

There may be other errors but i have yet to get a chance to look.

The questions i would like to raise are:

  • whether firstly should the infoboxes be all SSHS when this is something that is applied purely as a wikipedia basis and instead follow the scales used by the offical warning centers.
  • If SSHS is going to be used in other basins should the official 10-min mean be used for SSHS or a 1-min mean value?
  • If 1 min-mean values are going to used, should then be the official 10 min be converted to 1-min mean or the unofficial JWTC values be used. Seddon69 (talk) 21:10, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
This is wat has been going on in the Wpac as well - i have been told that where it says intensity on the Infobox is where the offical Data belongs (ie JMA/BOM/NADI/ETC) and the Number Cat is where the JTWC Data Belongs. Jason Rees (talk) 22:51, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
This is a real dilemma. I think if SSHS is going to be used, it should be used with the 1-min winds, as the scale was meant for 1-min winds. Additionally, we should be careful what we call a tropical storm, as not every basin has the same level. That said, what do we use for the SSHS? On one hand, SSHS is used by the NHC, and the JTWC is closer to the NHC than the JMA is; thus, since JTWC does use 1-min winds, it might seem logical to use JTWC's winds, since using SSHS in non-NHC basins is unofficial anyway. On the other hand, it would be slightly more official if we used the converted 10-min values from the local RSMC. I'm leaning more toward JTWC's values, I think, though my mind has vacillated enough for me not to trust my opinion. --♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 04:34, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Dual disambiguation and cross-basin disambiguation

This came up in an IRC talk today after I noticed (again) Tropical Storm Wilma (disambiguation). See Wikipedia:WikiProject_Tropical_cyclones/Merging#Orphaned_or_dual_disambiguations. There are a few underlying issues.

And another bit of background: I realized the other day that our disambiguation pages ("TC dab") are actually set index articles. This is a specific type of disambiguation, with specific guidelines of its own that allow the article to be more than a simple disambiguation is normally expected to be.

We should link storms from the main name article; for instance Wilma should have links to the storms named Wilma. This is not a set index article however and does not need to give details or link to all 19 named storms when there's already a set index article (i.e. wikiproject disambiguation page) to do so. TC dab articles should exist whenever a name is used 3 or more types; when a name is used only once a single link is necessary; the only problem then is when a name is used twice and both articles (or season articles) must be linked.

In my opinion when a name is only used twice and at least one of the storms has its own article, there should not be a disambiguation article. A simple {{dablink}} at the start of the main article, with sufficient redirects, will do (hink has an alternate suggestion here, allowing the link to be included in the "see also" if there is low possibility for ambiguity as with cross-basin storms). When a name is used three or more times a TC dab should be made.

Hmm, I think I had some more thoughts on the matter but nothing comes to mind now. For the moment I'm going to fix wilma (as discussed on the merge page).

— jdorje (talk) 04:36, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Last season in the WPac I usually created a dab page when a name was used for a second time. This has created several of the sort of dab pages you talk about, such as Typhoon Chanchu (disambiguation). The reason I created these sorts of pages was because (usually) when the system formed I had no idea what the second system with that name would do. Hence, I agree that duodabs should be PRODed if one system is retired. I disagree on twice-used names where one has an article but is not retired. I believe that Tropical Storm Melissa is an example; the recent Tropical Storm Melissa (2007) has an article; there was also a Supertyphoon Melissa in 1994. I don't expect the name Melissa to be retired and I don't think anyone here seriously thinks so either. I don't think that page should be deleted. Basically, delete the duodabs where one storm is retired but keep the other. Should this result in new ones in this situation, they can always be PRODed after retirement of the name due to the second storm using it. Miss Madeline | Talk to Madeline 05:58, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
I think if a dab page exists for a name used only twice, but the name is still in the rotation, it should still be kept. Also, given that they are "set index articles", my personal preference would be for the dab pages to be linked in the see also section. First, I doubt there is much ambiguity in the page Hurricane Dennis (1981) for other storms named Dennis, and secondly, I don't like how list of notable tropical cyclones is the standard link for the see also section. Here are dabs for names used only twice, with one being retired.

I'd like if those were redirected to the retired articles, with the other storm linked in the See Also section. --♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 04:19, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Conversion templates

For a while I've been wanting to make a set of conversion templates for updating active tropical cyclones. I believe I have finally come up with a workable system.

So take a look at it. If you find any errors, tell me and I will see what I can do. Give some comments please on if you think we should use this template and if so, what name should it have. The shorter the better as it will be on the page many times. ---CWY2190TC 00:48, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Sweet. Unfortunately, I'm wondering whether it is redundant with Template:Convert. --♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 22:43, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
A few reasons why I think it is needed. First, you can't round to the nearest 5 units like we do with winds and distance. Second, unless I'm mistaken, Template:Convert can't convert something like this: xxx nm (xxx km, xxx mi). You can only do xxx nm (xxx km). ---CWY2190TC 22:59, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for explaining the differences. Well, it seems to work well. What about Template:WPTC convert, something simple like that, for a name? Also, one thing - is there a way so it does not wikilink every time? Having links to mph 20 times in one page would get a little excessive. --♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 23:09, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
That is one issue. Plus if you look at movement in the info box, it adds an unneeded break. ---CWY2190TC 23:28, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
Darn, have you tried fixing it? Or, perhaps, we could ask for help? I'm sure there is a group of editors with the know-how to help perfect it. --♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 00:07, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
I found a fix. In stead of typing "west-northwest at {{WPTC convert=NHCspeed|number=8}}", you can type "{{WPTC convert=NHCspeed|direction=WNW|number=8}}" and get the same thing, but it won't put the break in. It will link to boxing the compass.

[edit] Accumulated Cyclone Energy (ACE)

There's been some discussion on the 2006 AHS talk page, regarding ACE and how it constitutes Original research. We were talking about it on the IRC, and I wanted some opinions on it. In my opinion, I don't see a need to list ACE for each storm. However, I wouldn't mind seeing ACE still listed for season totals, as I have seen an NHC or NOAA document that lists ACE for each season back to 1851. Any opinions? ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 00:47, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Get rid of it. ---CWY2190TC 00:47, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Agreed. Juliancolton (talk) 00:48, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

As I personally think that ACE values are only useful for the season, here is a link that lists ACE values by season. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 02:07, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

I disagree with ACE calculation being OR. See here and here. The first has a question specifically about ACE. The second and part of the first are about using published data and formulas.
Also, this sets a bad precedent in my view. If we accept ACE calculation as being OR, we might have to consider "derived facts" OR. For example, I am not aware of any specific source that gives a list of longest-lasting Pacific hurricanes. The best-track info implies how long each system lasted, but to get the longest-lasting ones some digging must be done. If those and analogous facts are considered, this WikiProject had might as well get ready for Miss Slashiline, Juliancutting, and ORgonehink as we go on a rampage, removing perceived "OR" from articles.
Finally, at least in the context of the 2006 AHS, this is a moot discussion as a source from the NOAA/NCDC giving 2006 ACE by storm exists. Miss Madeline | Talk to Madeline 05:00, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Not quite. The source I gave lists that it was last updated on October, so maybe it uses the real-time advisories. But I maintain my view that ACE is not OR. Miss Madeline | Talk to Madeline 05:10, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
The way ACE is used in literature, it is mainly a yard stick to compare seasons against each other. As for whether it constitutes OR, maybe it should be brought up in one of the more wikipedia-wide pages and see what they think. I can see reasons for and against it being considered original research. If it is, the rainfall totals I use for Haiti in the List of wettest tropical cyclones by country article would also be considered OR. Thegreatdr (talk) 05:42, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
That same page Miss Madeline referred to, exists as well for year 2005 and 2004, both of them update in Nov. 2007. Other years I didn't check, but I don't see OR. --Matthiasb-DE (talk) 19:46, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
If we have a NOAA page that gives ACE values, then we can always use those. Failing back, I'd say that the ACE formula is simple enough, so it doesn't really fit the OR definition, but sourced data is always better if present. Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 04:42, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

ACE values are certainly not OR, any more than the track maps are. My personal opinion however is that the importance wikipedia articles attach to these values is completely unjustified. No other source besides us would give ACE data a top-level section in a discussion of a hurricane season. — jdorje (talk) 09:16, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Sounds like we should change that then. =) Thegreatdr (talk) 12:03, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
How about just including the value in the infobox? Storm ACE could be included perhaps in the small hurricane infobox? that way we cut down on the redundancy of it having its own section but still provides the information. Seddon69 (talk) 17:36, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
That would be a viable solution if we wished to keep the stats. I guess it comes down if we want to keep them for individual storms or not. Though I'm not a particularly big fan of the ACE, I wouldn't mind seeing them in the small hurricane infobox, though I'd prefer if that parameter was optional (so it wouldn't break the boxes from now until they were all finished, as well as so they wouldn't appear in the other basins). ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 19:23, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] FT collaboration

I was talking on the IRC, and some users expressed some interest in a collaboration in getting season articles to FT status. Seasons are natural FT's, such as the 2003 AHS. We were thinking of starting with the 2006 AHS, since it is almost finished. 2006 Atlantic hurricane season and List of storms in the 2006 Atlantic hurricane season should be featured, and ideally as should Hurricane Ernesto (2006), since it was the most damaging storm of the season. Hurricane Gordon (2006) and Hurricane Isaac (2006) would have to become GA's, though they're already close, and largely in need of some looking over and copyediting. Some other seasons we were thinking include:

  1. 1950 Atlantic hurricane season
  2. 1969 Atlantic hurricane season
  3. 1979 Atlantic hurricane season
  4. 1985 Atlantic hurricane season
  5. 1995 Atlantic hurricane season
  6. 1998 Atlantic hurricane season
  7. 1999 Atlantic hurricane season
  8. 2000 Atlantic hurricane season
  9. 2001 Atlantic hurricane season
  10. 2002 Atlantic hurricane season
  11. 2004 Atlantic hurricane season
  12. 2005 Atlantic hurricane season
  13. 2006 Atlantic hurricane season
  14. 2007 Atlantic hurricane season
  15. 1997 Pacific hurricane season
  16. List of Category 5 Pacific hurricanes

This is a long-term project, but I'm sure once it gets going, the interest will grow, and it'll go faster. So, would anyone be interested in such a collaboration? ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 18:14, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Category 5 Pacific hurricanes is also somewhere on the way to being a potential featured topic. The main list is an FL. Ioke, Kenna, and John are FA's. Linda, Elida, and Ava are GA's. Hernan, Guillermo, and the 1959 Mexico Hurricane are start. Gilma, Emilia, Patsy would have to be created and them and the starts would have to be brought up to GA class at least. Along with at least two more FA's (in terms of importance those would be Linda and the Mexico storm), and then we have another FT. Although Category 5 Pacific hurricanes is not a season, in terms of being a featured topic it is as "close" as some of the ones Hurricanehink mentioned. Miss Madeline | Talk to Madeline 23:26, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
Ooh, great idea. I know someone is working on a sandbox for Emilia, and Gilma shouldn't be too hard. Patsy is another story. Since it was so short and so long ago, it might not be possible; I checked the AMS site, and it had minimal info on Patsy. But, you never know. There might be enough for a minimal article. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 02:37, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
Who has the Emilia sandbox? Miss Madeline | Talk to Madeline 04:46, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
CapeVerdeWave. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 04:55, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
Thank you. I tried searching for "Hurricane Emilia" using the wikisearch in user namespace only and didn't find it. The only one I got was a redirect from one Mitchazenia's old sandboxes. Miss Madeline | Talk to Madeline 05:32, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

I could clean up Gordon and Isaac a bit.TheNobleSith (talk) 16:29, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Updating articles like Hurricane Katrina

Would people here have time to have a look at these threads?

Thanks. My question specifically would be whether the members of this project feel it is their responsibility to keep the article updated, or whether that would be something more for the (less active) Wikipedia:WikiProject Disaster management to deal with? In practice, the updates will be done by whichever individual editor (including me) finds the time, but considering the general case might help for future things like this. Carcharoth (talk) 11:25, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

This is wikipedia. Anyone can update any article, whether or not they belong to this project. Most of these articles are under multiple wikiprojects, so it's really up to whoever from whatever project gets a chance to update an article first. Otherwise, wouldn't there be a WP:OWN issue? I'd rather not have the updating of articles turn into the circus that global climate change has become. Thegreatdr (talk) 18:24, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
My main point (not really raised fully here) has been confirmed by Titoxd's response here. My concern is that people are actually avoiding updating the article because they fear (probably rightly) that partial attempts at updates would imbalance the article. I also suspect that people are more wary of doing this updating because it is a featured article, and they are waiting for an "expert" or someone with enough time, to come along and do the updating. In other words, rather than updates taking place the normal way for Wikipedia, the achievement of featured article status has contributed to impeding further updates. Carcharoth (talk) 03:26, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
Maybe that's why some of the former FAs and GAs have gone into disrepair over the past couple years, both within the tropical subproject and meteorology project. Myself, along with a few others, worked for a couple weeks in trying to get Ivan, which was briefly an A class article, "up" to what is currently considered a GA. Personally, I don't see an article's status stopping me from updating the article, especially if it has slipped in stature. You just need to be careful that the sources you pick are the most authoritative available. We must always remember that we should be bold with updates to articles, regardless of class. Thegreatdr (talk) 04:03, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Good article nomination backlog

There's a significant backlog of tropical cyclone articles at wp:good article nominations. We do not have enough regular reviewers to deal with all the nominations received, and unfortunately certain topics seem to suffer more than others. The good news is that the review process is relatively simple and any registered user is more than welcome to participate. If you'd like to help out, simply pick an article you haven't contributed to from the list and see if it meets every good article criteria. If you have any questions, feel free to ask on the good article nominations talk page or even directly on my talk page. --jwandersTalk 21:24, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Track maps

I was recently looking around and noticed the loss of track maps after Man-yi in the 2007 Pacific typhoon season. I think I remember hearing someone saying something about some utility not supplying data points anymore. In addition, most current NIO, SWIO, AUS, and SPAC systems have no tracks. Wikipedia:WikiProject_Tropical_cyclones/Tracks tells how to use the program, but where location of the data that's used to generate them (like the WPAC)? The JTWC? Do we have to wait for them to update their best tracks? Is the JMA best track in the correct format that the program accepts? If it's possible, I might be able to use the program to make them myself and, if needed, manually enter data points. All I need to have is the program used to generate them and the location of the data. Thanks. -- RattleMan 03:20, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

I would recommend sending Ajm81 or Jdorje an email. --Coredesat 17:34, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] {{Infobox Hurricane Small}}

After reverting new user Potapych twice on Template:Storm colour and noticing he is working on a rather problematic replacement for Template:Infobox hurricane small, I have to bring this back up. We sort of discussed a replacement for IHS, {{Infobox Hurricane Small}}, here, and it looked like we were reaching some agreement, but nothing ever came of this. This version of IHS would solve some problems with the current version, such as the fact that the current IHS doesn't work for all basins and is unable to represent some official data.

Potapych's version is similar to the one Nilfanion created (the one I linked), but causes various nomenclature and redundancy issues, and uses a color scheme that has not been discussed and has no consensus (which is the main reason why I reverted his edits on Template:Storm colour). My suggestion is that we deprecate {{Infobox hurricane small}} and replace all instances of it with {{Infobox Hurricane Small}}. --Coredesat 03:54, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

I emailed Nilfanion and he sent me an example of how the template is coded; it's similar to Template:Infobox Hurricane. See Template talk:Infobox Hurricane Small. --Coredesat 22:20, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
I've implemented the template on 1915 Atlantic hurricane season to further show how it works. --Coredesat 00:49, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
I'm happy for this infobox to be used. Good work Nilf :) Seddon69 (talk) 17:40, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
I have been having a play around with the infobox here. Using some details which have come from Hurricane Katrina making sure it works on all the Basins. The only problem i have faced is the South west indian ocean, which has not got a code that is consistant as i have tried using the code on the current season page and Cyclone Ivans page. once this minior problem is sorted i think this infobox can be rolled out IMO. Jason Rees (talk) 00:14, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
'Type' is not capitalized, and there are no Category 5 'typhoons' (Only JTWC would call it Category 5 and they would designate it a 'super typhoon' [2]). I knew people would mess this part up, especially since it is not returned by the template. Potapych (talk) 04:52, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
Hello. That infobox has several bugs in it. One of the scales is fubar'd, another one (in the SWIO) gets it really confused in some circumstances. It is just incomplete. However, you did NO research before reverting the first one, and this 'consensus' here was reached without any awareness of these problems. Since I had never finished the other one, you cannot criticize it for 'nomenclature and redundancy issues' (please explain that. The new one you have been adding doesn't even use nomenclature consistently). I see someone has already gone and made a mess of many season articles. I'm not working on it anymore or adding to this project. When a project gets old, there's always some busybody around trying to protect their territory. Potapych (talk) 03:45, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] The Atlantic tracks should be updated from 1915 to 1920

The current Atlantic storm paths during the 1915–1920 period are outdated. HURDAT recently reanalyzed all six seasons. Intensities and tracks were adjusted, while additional undocumented tropical storms were added. The new results for 1915, 1916, 1917, 1918, 1919, and 1920 can be found here. The changes have been officially incorporated into the Atlantic hurricane database. I recently left a note on Nilfanion's Wikimedia Commons talk page, but that person never responded. The same case can be said for Ajm81. Regardless, can anyone update the tracks via the new data? It would be greatly appreciated. Additionally, can anyone (jdorje?) offer advice about the track generator? Hopefully, it can be operated without some of the requirements. The lack of updated tracks in Commons is starting to affect the Atlantic TC articles. For example, an anonymous IP user recently changed a statement in the 1917 Pinar del Río hurricane article. "North-eastern Caribbean" relies on the old HURDAT data. The reanalyzed HURDAT indicates the cyclone formed further south and east. The map clearly shows cyclogenesis over the eastern (not north-eastern) Caribbean.

In a nutshell, someone needs to update the Atlantic track maps. I apologize (to all) if I have been unintentionally impatient. CVW (Talk) 21:15, 4 March 2008

Isn't that going to be hard to accomplish without the main HURDAT source on the historic part of the NHC webpage not updated as of yet? I understand the HRD page concerning the reanalysis has been updated, but HURDAT has not been formally updated yet. I know the "working" best track for storms in 2007 is nearly final, but until they address Erin through the TCR and/or the late December subtropical system, they are not going to formally update HURDAT for the teens or 2007. Thegreatdr (talk) 22:17, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
Well, the Dean track and other non-Erin storm paths feature updated tracks from the TCRs. For example, Dean did not attain Category 5 status in the eastern Caribbean Sea until it was confirmed in the post-seasonal TCR. That change is reflected in the Dean track map. Additionally, a recent chart on the TPC's site is updated through 2007. Note Humberto's landfall. I believe someone can utilize the new HURDAT data and upload new individual tracks for 1915, 1916, 1917, 1918, 1919, and 1920 seasons. The data can be manually updated. CVW (Talk) 23:00, 4 March 2008
Can anyone respond to my points? Thanks. CVW (Talk) 23:50, 6 March 2008
I haven't tried using the tracking map/chart program, so I won't be of much help to you. There, a response. =) Thegreatdr (talk) 00:19, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
As Coredesat told me in an above topic, "I would recommend sending Ajm81 or Jdorje an email." -- RattleMan 00:24, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
I apologize if this is a personal question, but what is their email addresses? Are you referring to messages on their talk pages? CVW (Talk) 02:00, 7 March 2008
Use Special:Emailuser. Jdorje and Ajm81. -- RattleMan 03:02, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
The tracks updated on the main NHC page on March 11. Thegreatdr (talk) 04:10, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Check this out!

Look familiar? Scroll down to the section about a certain tropical cyclone and compare it with this old version of one of our articles. Now compare their track map with our old map of California TC breakpoints.

Looks like the US Government has used us again. Miss Madeline | Talk to Madeline 22:06, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Haha, I love it. Now that's what I called being featured. Too bad they couldn't give you credit for writing it! ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 22:11, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
We've all written it. I also tipped the Signpost. Miss Madeline | Talk to Madeline 22:18, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Nice guys. Too bad it's not copyrighted. You could probably sue for them doing that. Or, you know, something like that. Maybe. I've been off for a few weeks, but will get back to contributing tomorrow.TheNobleSith (talk) 04:42, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

How can it be copyrighted? It's a .gov page. Thegreatdr (talk) 14:41, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Ok, I'm going to create an article for Tropical Storm Debbie (1965) tomorrow.TheNobleSith (talk) 04:31, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Ok,noticed someone else already has such an article in the works. Will find something else to do.TheNobleSith (talk) 02:47, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Death Tables

How Do I make a death table for a specific storm (Charley 1998 in this case)? Is there a template I use, or do I need a specific program or what? Also, I believe Charley 1998 is approaching B-Class. What do you think?TheNobleSith (talk) 02:52, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't know if a table is needed for Charley, since deaths only occurred in Texas and Mexico. For the future, though, I'd recommend basing the table off of the one on Hurricane Isabel (if you want both damage and deaths, specifying direct from indirect deaths), or the one on Hurricane Floyd as something simpler (for just deaths). All you have to do is copy it from the article, and adjust accordingly. The article is getting there, but it needs some more info (such as Mexican info, and some more Texas info would be good). Keep up the good work, though. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 03:08, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, I did say "approaching" LOL. Thanks for your help!TheNobleSith (talk) 03:22, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] {{Current disaster}}

I have blind carbon copied this call for action on the Meterology WikiProject, and I thought I'd post it here too.

A TFD discussion I started for the {{HurricaneWarning}} and {{StormWatch}} template (which tells people specifically to get information from other sites, complete with a big bold ATTENTION, which I think violates WP:NDA) has led to major improvements into a new similar template I created called {{Current disaster}}. But we could use some more input on this. Some improvements I've done include being able to specifiy what disaster or weather event the template is for, and other options. If you have any comments about implementing this in place of the 2 other templates, think we could discuss it here and on {{current disaster}}'s talk page? I was asked to discuss this with the Meteorology and Tropical Cyclone WikiProjects. ViperSnake151 17:19, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Overcategorization

Per a little discussion on categories for discussion, a user realized we really do have a lot of categories for US hurricane articles. Most of them really are useless, as a storm impacting Alabama is most likely also going to affect Mississippi. So, rather than have a category for every state, I propose we limit the number of categories to nine for the United States, with Florida, Alaska, and Hawaii each getting their own (the latter two due to being isolated from other areas). So, for the remainder, I'm imagining they would match up with the designations on the HPC rainfall site. It doesn't have to be that, but it's neatly defined, and relevant to our project. Any thoughts? ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 01:31, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

It could work...though I actually like the current state categories myself. That way, someone on Wikipedia could look up storms which impacted individual states. What about using regional categories only when applicable, but otherwise using state categories for storms which impact one state? Or...just use the state category of the state with the greatest impact from the cyclone? Thegreatdr (talk) 02:12, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
I'm not really sure that we need to change the state categories. While it is true that storms are large phenomena, replacing state categories with regional categories makes it more difficult to list storms that affect one particular state. If a tropical storm affects Alabama, it may not affect Texas, and vice versa; however, placing both storms in the same category just clumps storms in categories large enough to be useless. Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 03:27, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
  • What is wrong with having appropriate categories to categorize things? We have some WP editors who get sick whenever they see a article with lots of categories, but there is nothing in WP policies or guidelines that say that many categories are a bad thing or they should be deleted whenever they are found. I categorized many of these articles, and I did so by reading the text of the articles to determine which states were impacted. Editors should read the articles before theorizing about their categories. Hmains (talk) 04:13, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Good points. That seems like enough consensus. OK, so it makes sense not to group them together. However, Thegreatdr brought up a potential solution to overcategorization, if that even is a problem, by limiting the categories to just the areas of greatest impact. Any thoughts on that? ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 05:22, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

That's a whole 'nother can of worms. First we would have to define what a significant impact would be, and I'd hate to have anything similar to a notability debate over something as trivial as categorization. We would also have to consider whether a storm that caused a large amount of damage in one area, yet caused an exorbitant amount of destruction in another would be listed on both. Also, what do we do with storms that don't cause significant damage anywhere, but still affect regions that are not affected by storms frequently (Kathleen comes to mind).
Overall, I think there are enough headaches with the solution, and there is not even an agreement on whether we have a problem... Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 06:23, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
Damn it Tito, why are you always right? OK, so answer this question, since you're 2 for 2 in this section. Should the category for tropical cyclones that impacted Georgia be Category:Georgia (U.S. state) hurricanes or Category:Georgia hurricanes? ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 18:18, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
I'd keep it there. After all, most of the categories involving GA have the parenthetical disambiguation in their titles (and heck, even the state's article is located at Georgia (U.S. state) instead of Georgia, so I don't think it would hurt anything to keep the parentheses there. We never know... Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 05:37, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Dabs - yes, again

I have a simple proposal for the dab pages in storm articles. Rather than having a dablink at the top of an article, I propose moving them to the see also section. I've done that for a few articles, and I think it'd be rather harmless. This is what would show up.

The benefit for this is that the dab would be the default link in the See also section. Currently, it is List of notable tropical cyclones, or the basin one. However, certainly a minimal tropical storm doesn't need a link to notable tropical cyclones. One more thing. I doubt there is confusion when the title has the year in it. I'm pretty sure this has been said before, but surely no one at Tropical Storm Barry (2007) was expecting the storm from 2001. Any comments? ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 18:08, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

I think that would work, but there will be case-by-case scenarios in which we probably will need a hatnote. Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 05:38, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Hurricane Ella

I don't have the time or inclination to do this myself at the moment, but Hurricane Ella needs to be a disambig page - right now it redirects to the 1958 AHS, when there was at least one in 1978. --Golbez (talk) 10:28, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Got it. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 15:35, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Does this WikiProject have A-class review?

If not, consider starting one. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.189.62.23 (talk) 10:48, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, we have one. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 13:27, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
First for me. What's the criteria? Hurricane Angel Saki My own personal NHC 07:10, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
Generally the review has always been pretty inactive, and the assigning of A-class has happened by editors who thought the article was good. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 13:50, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Numerical model template

Similar to the handy templates on environmental modeling systems, meteorological instruments and variables, I've been building a new template of numerical weather and climate models at Template:Weather and climate models. I've mostly not included tropical cyclone/hurricane models in this template, although that could be changed (particularly for operational models). For discussion on this and other things, please see Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Meteorology#Numerical model template. Evolauxia (talk) 06:18, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] {{main}} Vs. {{hurricane main}}

A current Featured List candidate, Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of storms in the 2006 Atlantic hurricane season, received some comments about whether to use {{main}} instead of {{hurricane main}} for season articles and season lists. Most if not all of the season articles use Template:hurricane main, although it is not compliant with the MoS. I brought the discussion here in hopes to get some kind of consensus as to whether to continue using hurricane main over main. Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 13:14, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Links for storm articles use hurricane main, and other articles get the regular main, as follows.
Main article: Hurricane Katrina
Main article: 2005 Atlantic hurricane season

That is how we've been doing it, and it's better to maintain consistency throughout the project. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 13:34, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, this is my fault by the way. If, indeed, the template is used across all articles then simply modifying the template so it isn't bold, and thus in-line with the manual of style, then the articles will remain consistent across the project and, indeed, consistent across all projects. The Rambling Man (talk) 13:42, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
Oh, and for your interest (should the manual of style ring your bell), MOS:BOLD#Boldface talks a little about emphasising and when not to use boldface. The Rambling Man (talk) 13:47, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
The MOS doesn't really go too much into the linking. There has been a consensus to keep the storm article name links bolded, and I agree with that. The bold link is to draw your attention to the link, so you know there is a sub-article. A plain {{main}} link is rather plain, and I don't think would be appropriate for the season articles. The storm articles make up the season, so it is more than just a {{see also}} sort of link. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 17:35, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
Yeah, I'm not too fussed, but overuse of bold in inappropriate circumstances should be avoided. But not to worry! The Rambling Man (talk) 17:36, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
I actually think {{main}} might be more MoS compliant. Bolding usually indicates the title of the article when used. Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 13:54, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
Well, that's where I'm coming from. The hurricane version isn't MOS compliant... The Rambling Man (talk) 13:56, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
I don't really think the MOS talks about this specific issue to much, and I don't think it's too much of a problem. There aren't many other types of articles where the sub-articles are as integrated as the top-level article, which is why I think the bold linkings are appropriate. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 14:52, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
Well, I'm still confused as to why this single project doesn't use the Wikipedia-wide {{main}} template, that's all. The Rambling Man (talk) 14:58, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
Mostly, because a while back, the {{main}} template wasn't stable, and several editors in the project didn't like the non-bolding, so they were essentially boycotting the template. To solve that situation, somebody created {{hurricane main}} without the bold, and it stuck. I'm not really sure whether anybody really cares about the bold anymore (although Hink as usual brings good points), but this template also avoids the ParserFunctions mess that is present in {{main}}, and allows for finer control of hatnote content. The latter reason is why I use it. Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 20:23, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Tropical cyclone climatology articles

I noticed when adding the tropical cyclone rainfall climatology article today that someone had created a box, with articles-yet-to-be created such as tropical cyclone wind climatology, tropical cyclone pressure climatology, and tropical cyclone storm surge climatology included. There have been studies relating central pressure to wind, but what kind of information were people thinking that these additional climatologies should include? How many TDs normally become TSs or HU/TY/intense tropical cyclones? By their own admission and lack of unnamed TD information within HURDAT, NHC technically does not maintain a tropical depression climatology, even if they've published articles for tropical depressions from most years since the 1960s (minus most of the 1980s). Storm surge is highly variable across very small distances of the coastline due to a variety of effects, and I'm not sure what a storm surge climatology would look like. What do you all think? Thegreatdr (talk) 21:29, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Yea, I'm not so sure I agree with that box. First, I don't like the idea of having a box in which all articles but one are redlinks. But more importantly, I don't think those articles would be feasible, for the reasons you listed. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 15:01, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, I mean, they're just very impractical articles. Things like storm surge are such irregular and rare events I'm not even sure they could be called climatological. TheNobleSith (talk) 03:14, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, a navigation box isn't very useful if it consists of one viable article. Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 20:16, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Images

Can't any new pictures for storms be named one way? For example, if Cyclone A forms and there is a picture can't you name it like Image: Cyclone A-1.jpg. If there is another picture form that storm can it be Imape:Cyclone A-2.jpg? --*****Joan97******Active Storms 15:38, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

I believe that is more of an issue of categorization of the image names. There are often images of a tropical storm before it reaches hurricane status, so an alternate image surely would not have the name hurricane in it. More importantly, the image names are to describe the image itself, so an image title of "Cyclone A peak intensity" would be more appropriate than "Cyclone A-2", if there was a previous image. The problem comes down to keeping track of where all of the images are on WP and commons. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 16:26, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
You are supposed to be as descriptive as possible in the file names. Here's a bad way to name an image Image:Hurricane Emily.jpg. Since there are seven other hurricanes named Emily, plus many other images of the same Emily, that's not descriptive enough. Just like photographs, if you give the date and time they were taken, there is no ambiguity. Potapych (talk) 16:48, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] h.Pa

Doesn't H.Pa not equal mbar. I got this from a JTWC advisory for Cyclone Jokwe. It said that it had a minimum pressure of 930 h.Pa and next to that 948mbar. So does that mean many atlantic hurricane seasons are wrong by stating that mbar and h.Pa are equal. For example Hurricane Dean has a minumum pressure of 905mbar (h.Pa) --*****Joan97******Active Storms 21:53, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

From Bar (unit), 1 mbar = 1 hPa. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 22:27, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
They're equivalent. I wonder why JTWC had that kind of a difference. Typo perhaps? Thegreatdr (talk) 15:55, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

HPa equals mbar. both are used because HPa is the metric measure of atmospheric pressure, whereas mbar is the US standard. TheNobleSith (talk) 23:39, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

NIST says 1 bar = 1000 hPa, so I'm betting on a JTWC typo. Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 00:04, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Encyclopedia of Hurricanes, Typhoons, and Cyclones

The new edition has been out since Fall. While some of the old factual errors have been corrected, new ones have appeared. Don't use its entry on Hurricane Lili (1984), for example. Some of the simple grammar problems are gone. I'm beginning to work with the author to correct some of the more obvious errors, but this won't make the book until the next update in 5 years or so. He did mention that there may be an electronic version available in the next year or two, which would allow the work to be updated in a more frequent manner. His research in NYC may be uncovering new data concerning 19th century tropical cyclone impacts, so the help could go both ways...towards improving his book, and improving HURDAT. Thegreatdr (talk) 15:30, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Keeping FA/A/GA articles at their current status

Another article within the broader meteorology project has been downgraded - water cycle. Somehow, it was inappropriately upgraded to GA in late 2006 in the first place, and its issues were never resolved. The same thing is happening within our subproject, per the latest newsletter. Myself and others did all we could to preserve Hurricane Ivan as a GA article a few months ago, but it was once deemed A class. Is this happening because people feel their work is finished when an article reaches GA, because the criteria changed circa 2006, and older articles which achieved GA or higher were never upgraded to the new criteria, or because our membership has shrunk? I understand this takes a lot of work, but the changes must be made, or other articles will be downgraded. Thegreatdr (talk) 13:21, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Primarily the first one, but that's more of a Wikipedia-wide problem than anything having to do with the Meteorology or Tropical cyclone projects. The FA/GA criteria have evolved organically as situations have arised, and that has for the most part caused a gradual rise in standards. A few years ago, inline citations were not necessary for FA status, and that is obviously not the case anymore. But in the wake, lots and lots of articles have been left behind. See for example Wikipedia:List of Wikipedians by featured article nominations; the only guy who has more FA's than Hink has had most of his articles de-featured because they were in the era prior to citations.
We have had very significant attrition as well. To use myself as an example, I know that school significantly picked up its pace this year, and that I simply don't have time to write stuff in large quantities anymore, so I've taken more of an ancillary role Wikipedia-wide. For many of us, I think that has been the case. What we really should do is to try to bring an infusion of new blood, and to keep it once we are here. Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 00:35, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Tropical Storm Arthur

I have found out that there is tropical storm arthur formed on April 1, does anyone know what has happened. http://www.topix.com/county/galveston-tx/2008/04/tropical-storm-arthur-forms-do-we-need-to-extend-hurricane-season

96.224.242.247 (talk) 18:44, 12 May 2008 (UTC)Joan97

I have no idea where they got that Arthur formed in April. Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 19:39, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
Oh, it's April 1. That explains it. Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 19:41, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Track Maps

Does anyone know why the maps are using a different map and why there is no track map for the 2007 Pacific typhoon season after Typhoon Man-Yi?

Mostly because the final versions of those maps haven't been uploaded by the users who have the track map generator installed. I tried installing it, but to no avail. Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 20:46, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
I Believe that they are also waiting for the JTWC Report thats coming out soon Jason Rees (talk) 14:16, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
2007 JTWC best track is available. -Ramisses (talk) 15:09, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] History of tropical depression handling in the Atlantic basin

I posted the following to Mitchazenia, but figured others in the project might be interested too.

Don't be too willing to discount high TD numbers. Something changed by 1989 which significantly lowered TD counts from NHC. Some of us (including at least one meteorologist at TPC) noticed the change soon after NHC created proper advisories for TDs which began around 1988 (instead of mere references in the tropical weather outlook). Others noticed that the TD definition itself changed to become more stringent (going from closed isobar to closed wind circulation and including wordage like well-defined and warm-core). While a number of the pre-1989 TDs probably wouldn't be considered TDs nowadays, some of them would have been TSs if meteorologists had the current tools 20-30 years ago. By the way, if you ever see newspaper articles from the mid 80s backward which define the term tropical depression, let me know. With such information, we might be able to create an article detailing the history of tropical cyclone advisories/warnings for the Atlantic basin. Thegreatdr (talk) 20:42, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Subst'ing disambig templates

Hi—I've noticed a number of hurricane and cyclone disambiguation pages in which {{Hurricane disambig}} has been replaced by its definition. Here's an example. Please don't do this. There are a number of reasons why most templates should not be subst'd, MOSDAB makes it specific with respect to DABs. Thanks. —johndburger 02:24, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] {{Infobox Hurricane Small}}

It is done. The documentation is pretty lousy, however. If there are any quirks I should be able to fix them pretty easily. A better test of the template is to use it in articles that are NOT for the Atlantic or East Pacific, so I tried it on this one: 2005-06 Australian region cyclone season. BoM uses gusts a lot, but their best track data is given in 10-minute averages, so I added a scale for that.

Also, storms like Guba and Durga belong in the generic SHem basin, although they can go into any article that's appropriate. I added the parameter "WarningCenter" primarily for them so you can change the value as needed (I think you would set it to PNG or BMG for those two, respectively). If what it says is wrong, don't leave it. There's a list and you can add anything you want to it.

Lastly, the parameter "Type" (and Type1 and Type2) should make it possible to finish articles like 1970 North Indian Ocean cyclone season because they don't depend on having the correct MSW value. If you see some articles that say "Unknown strength tropical cyclone" a lot, it is because this parameter is looking for specific values. Go ahead and delete the lines that contain them, and it should work.Potapych (talk) 16:32, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Looks excellent. The only thing I would add to the documentation is that the parameters are case-sensitive. Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 00:10, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] CAN I JOIN? and IF I CAN HOW?

The article does not explain these points very well.

Anyway. can i and how? Itfc+canes=me (talk) 17:54, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Just add yourself to the bottom of the member list on the main page. Then, start editing articles, making sure to include inline references as you go. Thegreatdr (talk) 21:13, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Dateline crossers

How should tropical cyclones that cross the dateline be named? I am starting this discussion to reach a consensus on how to name systems that are both typhoons and tropical storms because I have a .txt article on 1959's Patsy ready to go and am not whether to call it Typhoon Patsy (1959) or Hurricane Patsy (1959). Since it crossed the dateline while at hurricane/typhoon intensity, either of those names is a possible article title. Miss Madeline | Talk to Madeline 22:21, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Patsy is an unusual case. The precedent for basin crossers (CPAC/WPAC or WPAC/NIO) is to name it for whichever basin it reached hurricane status. Typhoon Paka formed in CPAC but reached hurricane status in WPAC, while Hurricane Ioke did reach hurricane status in CPAC. A Google search indicates "Hurricane Patsy 1959" has more hits than "Typhoon Patsy 1959". However, the MWR says Typhoon Patsy, and the CPHC says "was upgraded to a typhoon". I'm personally leaning Typhoon Patsy (1959). FWIW, the MWR also has its track beginning west of the dateline. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 22:48, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
I myself was leaning towards Hurricane Patsy (1959) because it was stronger as a hurricane and due to it having more search engine hits, but also saw the other case. That's why I brought it up here. Whatever the decision, the other possible name would redirect to the chosen name. Miss Madeline | Talk to Madeline 22:05, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
I'm leaning towards Hurricane Patsy (1959), but that's just my opinion. Mostly per directly above. Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 01:06, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
Based on the responses here, I'd says that there is weak support for calling it a hurricane. I am going to create it there and redirect the other name there, bearing in mind that if consensus changes the page can always be moved. Miss Madeline | Talk to Madeline 16:48, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Infobox and tables

I know there is a problem rendering the small infobox templates in IE. If anyone wants to redo the code, I have an example at User:Potapych/Sandbox, and I can implement it in the template. Potapych (talk) 01:25, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia:Featured portal candidates/Portal:Earth sciences

portal earth sciences has been put for featured portal candidacy. your suggestion and comments are most welcome. thank you, Sushant gupta (talk) 02:31, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] I'm Back

Hey guys. Well, I couldn't stay of Wikipedia for even a month before missing it, it seems. I will begin working on Hurricane Frances' article, attempting to get an FA or even FT eventually. TheNobleSith (talk) 21:37, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Great to have you back! ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 00:55, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Naming of pre-1950 storms both within titles of storm articles and subject headers of annual articles

This is copied over from the GA page of 1851 Atlantic hurricane season.

Here's the discussion that led to text being included on the wikiproject page regarding the name of storm articles for unnamed tropical cyclones. I had a similar issue with Unnamed Hurricane (1975) from the central Pacific. Originally, it was named Hurricane 12 within the Pacific article, I believe. If we're naming systems this way for storm articles, you'd think we'd be following the same format for the headers given in annual articles as well. The problem with using these numerical assignments is that these storms were never called "Hurricane One" or "Hurricane 12" in real-time, and still aren't or the name in HURDAT would be "TWELVE" and not "UNNAMED". It is safer, and will require fewer changes in the future, to call systems "Late June Texas hurricane" to avoid this problem. If you no longer think this applies pre-1950, we need to have a discussion within the project specifically about this issue, because (as you've noted) we have a difference between the conventions used in the annual articles and what is stated on the wikiproject page which should be resolved. We also have a problem with tropical depression numbering in more recent years which is not going to go away. I've been using the number assigned operationally (in the 1981 Atlantic hurricane season article), while other years are just numbering everything sequentially, regardless of what they were called operationally. This is a related debate...I'll copy this over to the tropical cyclone wikiproject page since it's at least as relevant on that page than this one. Thegreatdr (talk) 01:07, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
Personally, I do not necessarily think we should be following the same format for storm article names versus section titles. First, I believe that generally all unnamed storms since the start of naming should have the format of "Unnamed Cyclone (Year)". However, for the pre-naming storms but still within the official database, I believe the season article should list it "ONE", "TWO", "THREE". I do see the argument for having the section titles correspond to the article title, then doing the same for other storms that affected land. However, there are major problems for that. Regularly two storms affect the same area in the same month, and more importantly there are the storms that do not affect land, at least directly. Given the HURDAT era has been thoroughly completed from 1851-1910, I don't think it'd be unreasonable to keep it simple with the number names. I don't think I'd mind switching it up for the unassessed HURDAT period (1920-1950), but I also wouldn't mind consistency. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 01:50, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
What about for storms like the Mid Florida Hurricane of August 1851, that were given a name after the fact, a name that even NHC acknowledges in their US hurricane landfall table? And for information, the unassessed HURDAT period is 1921-current. For example, there are systems that show up as tropical storms within the Daily Weather Map series during the 1950s which are not within HURDAT, and we still have some systems in the 1970s through 1990s which either were not given subtropical portions, but were explicitly stated as subtropical cyclones within their storm reports, or tropical storms even though they were never officially upgraded from TD in real time despite surface observations which state otherwise. Thegreatdr (talk) 09:53, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
I'd rather keep it simple by listing the storms by number, for 1851-1920. My concern for those descriptive names is most of them are by area and month. That becomes a problem when a storm lasts over a week and affects more than one place. Also, it becomes a problem when there are two storms in the same month that could have the same title, like in 1886 for hurricanes two and three. For 1950 to present, I think any storms that were in Daily Weather Map but not in HURDAT should be in an "other storms" section, but there I wouldn't mind seeing them called "Early June Mid-Atlantic Tropical Storm", or something. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 13:17, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
If it is agreed that this procedure of "tropical storm 9" be continued within the annual articles, a change needs to be made to the main project page to reflect it. It doesn't seem consistent to me to do it one way in the annual articles, but another way for individual storm articles. Then again, I'm not the only one in the project, so I'd like to hear opinions from the others. Thegreatdr (talk) 19:12, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
Well, nothing in the main WPTC page deals with the section naming, so this discussion would only be to add whatever we decide. I think what is more important is not the consistancy between article/section title, but between section titles. After all, there are only a handful of articles from 1851-1910. Come to think of it, there is another option I think I would like. For the landfalling storms, what about listing both? In the 1886 season for the Indianola hurricane, what if it was like "Hurricane Five/Indianola Hurricane", or "Hurricane Five (Indianola Hurricane)". That would keep the numeric structure, but still specify the storm in the section title (for ease in table of contents). Any thoughts? ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 19:22, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
While it is an option, it opens up the door for titles like "Tropical Depression 12/Tropical Depression Nine" for years there were 3 other candidates added to the TD list after the fact (there are seasons like this according to the 1988-2002 Atlantic systems articles and the non-developing system database). In my opinion, a mix of methods for annual season titles and article naming would be confusing. Thegreatdr (talk) 21:42, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
I didn't really mean it in terms of tropical depressions. I more meant it for the section titles that also have articles, like, in 1856, "Hurricane One/Last Island Hurricane". Have we figured out how long depressions have been numbered? For whatever period after that in which they were numbered, I believe they should also go numerically, since that was their designation (like TD 10 in 2007). If any new ones are added, somehow, than it can be listed as "Late September Tropical Depression", or something, since it would be out of order. For the period before they were numbered, IMO the depressions should be listed as the descriptive format, and not numerically. I still think the mix of methods could work. Then again, it's hard to reach a decision when only two people are talking. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 22:24, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
True. Let's allow others to chime in. Thegreatdr (talk) 23:23, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
Uh, I dunno. You guys can keep going. Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 00:33, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
Its better if they were listed numbered even if they were listed in a period before they were numbered because a name like "Late September Tropical Depression" is too generic and confusing to the reader if there were multiple tropical depressions, storms and/or hurricanes all at once in late september or any other month and makes its difficult to determine which storm is which.Storm05 (talk) 12:29, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
It would probably read something like "Late September Western Caribbean tropical depression," but there would still be potential uncertainty if more than one TD formed in that area within a ten day period. It looks like TD numbers were used operationally back through at least 1969, per the recent archives available at NHC, so our TD article problem will lurk in the years between 1969 and 1986. The unnamed tropical cyclone problem covers a much longer period of time. Thanks for the input. More is needed and welcome. Thegreatdr (talk) 13:55, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Track map updates

I've updated a whole swathe of track maps on Commons, including but not limited to: the 1915-20 HURDAT update, info in the 2007 JTWC best track and storms to date in the current seasons. These are all on Commons, but I haven't fixed any of the articles - the AHS articles will be incorrect as a result of the changed numbers.

Seeing as no one seems to have the ability (or the inclination) to use it, I'll write up a guide over the weekend and post it on wiki when I'm done. I am confident that the program can within a Ubuntu Live CD session. This option would work for most Windows users (which I assume constitutes the majority here). However, as the program's SVN repository seems buggy I have not been able to test just yet.

As a little challenge for anyone interested: I will do a cumulative track (like Image:South American hurricane tracks.jpg) for the first to correctly identify this track.--Nilfanion (talk) 23:55, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

I tried installing the program on my Leopard computer, but to no avail, as it fails on compile because it doesn't find Cairo. :S Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 00:32, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
Well have you downloaded Cairo? I don't think its included in any mainstream OS by default.--Nilfanion (talk) 00:36, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
Yep, the latest version via MacPorts. Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 00:43, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Here's the results of the compile:
Bootstrapping... [prerequisites]
** Error: some prerequisites could not be found:
        ++ Checking for autoconf, need 2.57.0, found 2.61.0 - ok.
        ++ Checking for automake, need 1.7.0, found 1.10.0 - ok.
        ++ Checking for gettext, not found!

Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 00:48, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Bizarre... :S Unfortunately, I don't really have the knowledge to figure out why it won't work. I've tried before to get it running Cygwin (in M$ XP), and that failed too. However, the Linux Live CD option certainly should work just has the annoyance of needing recompiling every time you want it. That's not too bad as the package compiles rapidly, but its hardly ideal.--Nilfanion (talk) 00:51, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
At the risk of sounding stupid - get hold of gettext? Assuming that can compile OK on Leopard, have another go - see what fails then and look for that package repeat... I'm not really the person for this, unfortunately, but I think I'm the one who can get the most out of the package at present (as a certain FP shows).--Nilfanion (talk) 01:01, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
I got the dependencies to compile (gettext was in my system, but it had to be enabled manually), but I got the following syntax error during compilation:
./configure: line 5026: syntax error near unexpected token `TRACK,'
./configure: line 5026: `PKG_CHECK_MODULES(TRACK, cairo >= 1.0.0)'
That one is in the program itself, but I can't figure out where in the code it is. Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 06:45, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
Its in configure.ac. Suppose you could always remove it that line and see what happens, you have the track package and cairo, so...--Nilfanion (talk) 09:00, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
It dies violently without that line, as it apparently initializes and defines several variables. Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 18:16, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
<shrug>I don't really have any idea what to do, talk to someone who does know coding or on VPT maybe?--Nilfanion (talk) 20:53, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
Nice!! Thanks a lot with the tracks update. Regarding that track, here are my thoughts on it. It is not a real track from 1851 to 2008, since I know there have been no hurricanes taking that track over New Jersey). It also is not a recent one, since there is no depression stage. So, I narrowed it down to a few options. I'm thinking you might have done something crazy like a track map of the 24 hour forecast positions of a storm; that's too much work, though, so I don't think you would've done it. Another option would be a combination of several tracks, with the intensities edited; the last two points of this are the same points as the mystery storm. So, I'm going to go out on a limb and say the mystery storm was your re-creation of the 1821 Norfolk and Long Island hurricane, based on track points from other storms. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 01:00, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
Incorrect :P Just so you know, it is not a compilation from multiple storms.--Nilfanion (talk) 01:07, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
At the very least, I know it is not a storm as it appears in HURDAT, as the hurricane status through New England (specifically New Jersey) is a giveaway. So, I'm going to guess it was either your own re-creation of 1821 Norfolk and Long Island hurricane without other tracks, a track of a real storm but shifted Xº to the west, or something like the X hour forecast positions of a certain hurricane (thinking Floyd, but I checked and it didn't add up). If it's none of these, I give up! :P ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 01:28, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
I did not fabricate the track myself, but faithfully interpreted data from a reliable source, and I can give a single url for the sourcing. I will not go any further than that: to give other people a chance to ID :P--Nilfanion (talk) 01:52, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
I'm gonna say it's a real track map of the 1821 Norfolk and Long Island hurricane. :) Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 01:54, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
[3] I'll give you until Monday to figure it out.--Nilfanion (talk) 09:00, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
Hah, stumped you! For what its worth I don't really think its too surprising that Norfolk got "hit"... I'm a bit busy at the moment, but will try to get more tracks done soon.--Nilfanion (talk) 21:11, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

I've updated the 2007/2008 articles with the new tracks; thanks Nilf. Some 2007 WTS tracks are still unaccounted for: Pabuk, Sepat (waiting on correct name/track), and Podul (though the JTWC didn't carry it). -- RattleMan 02:08, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Pabuk was an oversight, Sepat I stupidly put to the PAGASA name and then deleted when I noticed an error in the track (there's a few I need to redo). Podul is a wontfix: no JTWC info => no track. To start using JMA data in the tracks would require a major rethink on how the tracks are done. Changing that is not a bad thing, but whatever is done has to make sense.--Nilfanion (talk) 09:00, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
BTW, can you update the track map for Cyclone Jokwe? Storm05 (talk) 12:23, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
What are the file names for (2005's) 12S, 2S, 4S, 20W, 25W? I have been trying to guess those.Potapych (talk) 18:01, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
Tracks for unnamed storms have not generally been created at this time, so they are not on Commons at present. I suppose I should probably try and upload tracks for every last storm, but it hasn't been done yet (unnamed storms require marginally more effort than the named ones). The current file names for those storms is somewhat ad hoc too; I'll figure out something.--Nilfanion (talk) 20:53, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Two potential HURDAT articles

Per recent comments, it looks like we need two HURDAT articles: one for the Atlantic and one for the eastern Pacific. I've added their most probable names to the Wikipedia:Requested articles/Natural sciences list, which are Atlantic hurricane database and Eastern Pacific hurricane database. If anyone wants to add them into wikipedia, feel free as always. Thegreatdr (talk) 13:59, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Or we could have a Hurricane database article, and then split it if necessary. Seddon69 was working on a HURDAT article in his sandbox, by the way. Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 19:32, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
That could work too...though Seddon's version only covers the Atlantic. I was under the impression that the Atlantic version had a more well-known history and a richer source of background data...initially developed with the space program in mind back in the 1960s and extended backwards using Navy records, Daily Weather Maps, and such. I've never really looked into the development of the eastern Pacific version, but the database doesn't go back as far. Since there are fewer shipping routes through the eastern Pacific, Daily Weather Maps are unlikely to be as helpful in extending the database backwards in time. If only one article is created, I'll eliminate the other on the requested pages page. Thegreatdr (talk) 04:09, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Personally, I think it would be a good move to have HURDAT article incorporated into the List of Atlantic hurricane seasons article. There has been talk to expand that page, but no one has had an idea. Well, given HURDAT and the LOAHS is is fairly co-existent, I think it'd be a logical move. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 01:23, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Surprise! The hurricane season time frame has changed through the years. What do we do?

I think that tropical cyclone database would be better; after all, what does a database of Pacific typhoons have to do with Atlantic hurricane seasons? Perhaps it would be better to find historical starting dates. This article indicates that operationally, the 1958 Atlantic hurricane season began June 15 and ended November 15. Miss Madeline | Talk to Madeline 01:41, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

That will be good information if an article on History of the Atlantic hurricane season is ever written. I never realized the season start date was ever set that late. I went back to see when the hurricane season became to be defined as June 1-November 30, and it appears from newspaper articles that the current definition came to be by the 1965 season. It turns out in older years (during the late 1930s and early 1940s) the hurricane season only ran from June 15 or 16 through October 31. I've only gone back through 1936, but it appears that the hurricane season defined when a 24-hour telegraph network went into operation along the Gulf and East coasts, and eventually defined the time frame when reconnaissance aircraft searched for storms over the Atlantic. This helps solve the mystery of the beginning of the hurricane season concept. What are we going to do with seasons prior to the 1930s, where hurricane seasons were not defined? Judging by the various time ranges given to the 1936 and 1964 hurricane seasons, we can't leave the older season articles with the text of June 1-November 30 defining the official hurricane season those years, can we? If we did leave dates, what would they be? Thegreatdr (talk) 23:12, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Saying that the season began in late spring and ran through to early autumn serves as a dodge to get around the problem of dates in older seasons. Miss Madeline | Talk to Madeline 00:48, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
If it wasn't obscure, we could say meteorological summer and autumn. =) Thegreatdr (talk) 02:11, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Tropical cyclogenesis GA Sweeps Review: On Hold

As part of the WikiProject Good Articles, we're doing sweeps to go over all of the current GAs and see if they still meet the GA criteria and I'm specifically going over all of the "Meteorology and atmospheric sciences" articles. I have reviewed Tropical cyclogenesis and believe the article currently meets the majority of the criteria and should remain listed as a Good article. I have left this message at this WikiProject's talk page so that any interested members can assist in helping the article keep its GA status. In reviewing the article, I have found there are some issues that may need to be addressed, and I'll leave the article on hold for seven days for them to be fixed. I have left messages on the talk pages of the main contributors of the article along with this WikiProject. Please consider helping address the several points that I listed on the talk page of the article, which shouldn't take too long to fix if multiple editors assist in the workload. If you have any questions, let me know on my talk page and I'll get back to you as soon as I can. Happy editing! --Nehrams2020 (talk) 01:21, 8 June 2008 (UTC)