Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Indonesia/Archive 2

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Archive This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Contents

Soe=/Su

I have been having a conversation with a prominent australian editor who is in indonesia at the moment who is moving articles due to their spelling being in not what he is finding as he travels in Indonesia. In other words he is not finding the pre-1972 spelling in anything he sees while is in country - and is subsequently moving articles - Suharto and Soebandrio so far. I have tried to explain from my perspective where I think a non-indonesian speaking user of wikipedia needs help if they do not know about the spelling change - might just need the old spelling in the first sentence of the article at least. I would much prefer some of our other project members to offer their thoughts on the usage of the pre-1972 spelling in persons names (or not) as I am obviously just one user questioning changes - do all names in this Indonesian wikipedia project that have soe- get changed to su, do we acknowledge that some older names might still be known by the soe rather than the su? I would appreciate some feedback on this, as I might be wrong in my bothering the editor - and would like to see whether I need to apologise for my interfering with his cleaning up things, or otherwise find that we have indeed have an issue over the variant spelling issue... SatuSuro 00:13, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

For anyone not sure what I am on about or where to find discussion - see the spelling - orthography issue - at [1] is a good start... SatuSuro 00:33, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm not really expert in this. I don't have any particular preference, but yeah current spelling is usually used. Perhaps in the lead we should also mentioning former spelling, as in candi with chandi. It's also the same case with Nusa kambangan when Michael moved it into Kambangan island. Nusa is a former name of pulau, so it is correct from the outsider (non-Indonesian) point of view but it would not familiar by Indonesian people. That's only my 2 cents. — Indon (reply) — 08:42, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
if you try to write so officialy you must use EYD. any article who after EYD must use EYD any school in indonesia have priorty about language teach so there mean no people are not familiar with eyd. Like soeharto become suharto this more proper cause this after eyd even there conflict about that, if you want right that it must be use EYD right spell.Daimond 15:45, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
Personally, I think the use of Nusa Kambangan is still relevant. So is Nusa Penida. I would feel very weird to say Pulau Kambangan or Pulau Penida. Matahari Pagi 09:15, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

As for the spelling of proper names, I think one should also take into consideration the way the person self writes his or her own name. In the Indonesian language Wikipedia, names before 1972 should be spelled according the Soewandi spelling and before 1948 according the Van Ophuijsen spelling. Meursault2004 10:39, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

This is interesting: The United States Government spells both the first two presidents of Indonesia with 'oe' [2]. Actually this is also my personal preference :-) Meursault2004 22:33, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
Which in turn shows that the now retired editor of February was in fact applying a principle that in fact does not fit well with usage. A very apt warning to any editor - regardless of apparent experience or notion of authority who seeks to apply a title or content which does not have adequate explanation of either the local usage or the possible available variations - in the first line of the article. The point still seems important 2 months later SatuSuro 04:54, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
Was this discussion ever concluded? I am working on Wikipedia:WikiProject Indonesia/Naming conventions and wasn't sure if there was a consensus one way or the other here. (I wrote that the 1972 spellings are preferred in general, since both Sukarno and Subandrio were where they are). Please help contribute to the naming conventions, where I have added other things. Rigadoun (talk) 18:15, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

"This is not right, don't make confusing note like this. It's okay if other nation use older spelling or version or depend on their tongue, no strict convention naming here, don't make your own difficulties" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.133.82.2 (talk) 09:29, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Rename: Malay World => Nusantara?

See the discussion on Talk:Malay world and offer an opinion please. --Merbabu 11:02, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Sumatran Rhinoceros at Featured Article candidates

I forget where we list these, so I'll put it here. Look at the article and comment at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Sumatran Rhinoceros. Rigadoun (talk) 02:05, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Rename: Indonesian invasion of East Timor

I'd like to rename the above page to "Indonesian occupation of East Timor". Perhaps someone from this project would care to comment on the talk page? Thanks. – Scartol • Tok 23:19, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Adam Air Flight 574

The above article, which falls into the scope of this project, is up for WP:FA. Please leave comments at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Adam Air Flight 574. Blood Red Sandman (Talk) (Contribs) 23:23, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Articles for Deletion

The articles Gelora Bung Tomo, Bukittinggi Airport and Madiun Stadium have been nominated for deletion. While my Indonesian is poor, I have reason to beleive that the stadiums are genuine, and that airport seems likely. Cheers. Mostlyharmless (talk) 22:07, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Also Arema Malang International Airport was deleted. Does anyone know if this was a hoax? Cheers. Mostlyharmless (talk) 22:16, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Indonesian legislative election, 1999

Selamat tahun Baru! I have been continuing to create articles to get rid of some of the more prominent redlinks on important pages, and am working my way through the Indonesian elections. I was surprised to see the Indonesian legislative election, 1999 was redlinked, and when I clicked on it, I found out that it had been deleted on 13 May 2005 my a (now ex-) admin for the reason "content was: 'poopy stinky poopy'". What's going on? Any thoughts? Any chance of recreating it, or if do (sigh) will it get zapped again? Davidelit (talk) 11:34, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Recreate it, it's a valid page. Do you have enough info to get it past the stub stage? haydn_likes_carpet (talk) 11:45, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
I have more than enough info to get it past the stub stage, but the problem is finding the time. There were 48 parties participating, and I hate making tables! OK, I'm on the case. Davidelit (talk) 13:24, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Commons:Category:Indonesia maps

What happened to this category? Was there a reason for its deletion or never-existedness? Should I (re)create it? Or am I missing something? Davidelit (talk) 20:23, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

No idea. Did you have it watchlisted? If it's a commons page, perhaps ask on the talk page. --Merbabu (talk) 11:25, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
I was just recreating Commons:Category:Indonesia maps and adding maps to it when I realized to my horror that Commons:Category:Maps of Indonesia already exists, so I undid my damage and changed the link on the project/carography page. I will go and eat humble pie and nominate my own page for deletion. Rats! Davidelit (talk) 13:38, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

What a mess...

I guess we needed this article, but what a mess. Current version needing work. --Merbabu (talk) 08:57, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Bah humbug its fixed already :) - we do need a good one on ibu tien as well! SatuSuro 09:01, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

And another. Same author - colourful user talk page. groan. --Merbabu (talk) 09:08, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Indonesian Revolution of 1998...

I've suggested this article's name be changed. Please discuss in one central page here. Thanks --Merbabu (talk) 10:55, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Proposal: WikiProject East Timor

Folks involved with WP:Indonesia might be interested in this proposal. Cheers! – Scartol • Tok 01:48, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Lists in Indonesia Project

I would like to get the current edit issues off one of the article talk pages - and on to this project page - so that the record is set straight on an issue that has significant issue in this project.

  • Comment
  1. Many publications about Indonesia have lists of things
  2. There are some very unwieldy lists that are currently in the Indonesian Project - and are expandable
  3. Considerable lists such as the TV station list has sections that are neither alphabetical or in context as to why the order is made
  4. Lists in this project - should they have general guidelines? created by the project - or do we accept precedents from other projects
  5. Lists in this project - considering TV, islands and so on - should they have links to items with no articles?
  • Please take some time to make civil and considered responses to this issue as it is a project wide issue - and not just in one list. Thanks SatuSuro 11:47, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
I have a few things to add.
  1. 'Bare' lists, with no supporting info are of very little use. The situation is worse if most of the items are redlinks. The List of TV Stations in Indonesia is a case in point. No context, full of redlinks (would anybody read, yet alone write, an article about every single regional TV station?) and frankly not exactly a notable subject.
  2. If there are categories, do we need all these lists at all? Surely one or the other. If both exist, there is a danger of mismatches. See for example List of National Heroes of Indonesia and Category:National Heroes of Indonesia, which I haven't had the time to reconcile yet...
  3. Finally a minor point. All these lists look different. Some have tables, some are alphabetical, some are random. If lists do continue, and I am no longer convinced they are worth it, should there be some kind of standard.
  4. I haven't looked at all the lists because I'm not that sad and lonely. I'm waiting for somebody to create a "List of Indonesian Lists" :-) Davidelit (talk) 14:36, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
I am neither sad or lonely - but I am a category worker of whom most projects have very few editors either interested or willing to actually look after either - 'cross project standards' (yes david thats why this discussion is here in the first place) need to be created and maintained - specially where we have considerable numbers of low level english indonesian editors moving material from the indonesia wikipedia (where standards appear to be very different) into english wikipedia creating quality control nightmare as they flounder with their english and the level of reference and citation standards required here. SatuSuro 02:42, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Proposal

That the Indonesian Project create a set of guidelines for lists in the project -

  • (1) evaluated by criteria of adequate citations or references, listlength, use to project, use to direct to other exisiting wikipedia articles
  • (2) a sub page in the project is utlised for an discussion and evaluation of all lists in the project

SatuSuro 06:24, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

This proposal is reasonable. I think that the criteria of adequate citations should be more open than just requiring a Wikipedia article to be declared notable. Just because the general consensus may be that no one wants to write article about all of the notable schools/tv stations in Indonesia, it does not mean no one should or will. ML Saturn (talk) 06:54, 25 February 2008 (UTC)


This discussion also needs to nut out as to whether there are situations where notability in the wider wikipedia project is or can be the same in the Indonesia project or in effect the education sub project of the indonesian project - clear understandings of what
  • (a) might be notable in the general Indonesian project (viz size of population, diversity of population etc) and in effect the sub project of Indonesian education -
  • I would argue that - for example in the Universities - there may well be situation where notability exists in three diff spheres - ITB (Bandung) and UGM (Yogyakarta) are known about outside of Indonesia, while certain schools and universities in Jakarta are known about throughout Indonesia, while Undana in Kupang West Timor might have only eastern Indonesia notability - hence there are degrees of notability that need to be addressed by the project - in the proposed sub page - so that those willing to have a reasonable discussion have a single place for it.
  • (b) following on from the issue of suggesting levels of notability - the issue for lists - is not whether anyone might want to write an article about a particular entity - but whether the Indonesian Project can carry messy lists or not - lists will have to be resolved here or in the sub page - the school and television lists reflect badly on the project - there needs to be standardisation. For instance some broader subject projects in wikipedia insist that lists only carry mention of items that can be linked to - never grey or red links - and that articles extant are the only ones to be mentioned in the lists.
  • (c) I would strongly suggest all lists in in the Indonesia project carry 'to do' on their talk pages of red and grey links - and only have blue links on the actual list page - with no exceptions. To suggest otherwise would go against general wikipedia practice - the talk pages and to do lists are established practice.

SatuSuro 07:09, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree. A to do list containing red items would be appropriate. Despite the varying degrees of notability, items known only regionally within Indonesia are notable enough to be a part of Wikipedia. Although this may not be a common practice, I think that it should be explicitly stated on the article that missing items can be found on the "to do list." This is because the individuals qualified to write articles about the missing items may not be familiar with Wikipedia practice. -- ML Saturn (talk) 11:28, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
IN that case I do hope the two other project editors who had problems with the grey/red being included in the school list might come in at some point and agree - so that we can have an established procedure within this project - and any others wo might be watching - it would be good to move on to an accepted practice - and the to do list on the talk page will get around what I thought looked like the issue. Please correct me if i read it wrong! SatuSuro 11:32, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
I'm ready to proceed with List of schools in Indonesia when you are as long as Merbabu and Caniago who have been editing the article recently do not object. ML Saturn (talk) 16:08, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Only subjects that have articles should be on a list. Further, a subject should only have an article if it is both (a) notable and (b) this notability is supported by reliable secondary sources. Thus no schools should have articles because “it’s my school and it’s a cool school” and there should be no redlinks in the lists – if red links in a to-do or talk page help editors, that is fine – just not on the main page.--Merbabu (talk) 21:09, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Problem

I consider the issue of sorting by province/island and what is N versus not N - and trying to evaluate of what might be notable from the full range of schools in Indonesia has led me to following conclusion:-

Indonesian School list I have thought about it carefully - it is crazy - proyek gila - in Indonesian - I will try to ask all involved for it to be abandoned.

Any articles to be written do not need to be linked to a list - written articles are far more important than lists and can be kept in a category.

Please see- Wikipedia:Categories vs lists - thanks SatuSuro 14:55, 1 March 2008 (UTC) And if not sure after that - try Wikipedia:WikiProject Laundromat - cheers SatuSuro 09:45, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Categories

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2008_February_23#People_by_city_in_Indonesia_categories

This discussion is being 'keep' voted with little or no response to concerns from the Indonesia project members

  • the Indonesia project appears to be lumped with a collection of categories that the project does not want - simply because of the precedent that the USA and british projects have far too large lumps that they either cannot or dont want to do anything about - in other words the editors passing comment are assuming that the Indonesia project might have to put up with an unweildy collection simply because they have never grappled with the issue in their particular projects - even thought they can see project management issues that no one has confronted - so perhaps the Indonesia project is being told - 'we havent fixed our problems - so you cannot fix yours' - is one way to read the responses

SatuSuro 02:42, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Categories #2

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2008_February_26#Category:Indonesian_Catholics

This discussion like the above is likely to be 'lost' unless project members actually go have a look and comment SatuSuro 00:14, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

REFERENCES/CITATIONS

Too many articles are being created from Wikipedia Indonesia - without the sign of single reference to the source of information - please help the project by alerting editors to the standards by which this project wishes to keep for new or developing articles. SatuSuro 10:58, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree. Any such unreferenced content that is added I delete on sight. Brutal yes, but it is important to maintain standards. Quality is far more important than quantity. PS, WP ID is not a reliable source. --Merbabu (talk) 11:28, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Featured picture candidate

I have nominated an Indonesia-related image as featured picture candidate. It is a painting of the arrest of the Javanese Prince Diponegoro by the Dutch General Hendrik de Kock in 1830. If you want support or oppose the nomination, please see Wikipedia:Featured picture candidates/Submission of the Prince to the General. Thank you for your help. – Ilse@ 23:29, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Palembangese & Lampungese

I've nominated these articles for deletion at Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Palembangese & Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Lampungese. (Caniago (talk) 14:27, 6 March 2008 (UTC))

These deletion debates need further respondents to help clarify consensus. Please contribute if you are able to offer an opinion on the matter. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 14:33, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Senang Hati Foundation

Senang Hati Foundation could use some help; it is currently at AfD. Cheers, Jack Merridew 10:54, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia:ID

I've restored a shortcut; [3]. Someone needs to sort this out with the original hijacker. Cheers, Jack Merridew 10:57, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Geography of West Sumatra

I have missed among the highest mountains the mentioning of the Volcano KERINJI, height approx. 3700 m nr. Mura Labu, south of Padang, which is the highest Mountain of Sumatra and therefor should be mentioned. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.95.101.99 (talk) 21:57, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Mount Kerinci is located in Jambi, not West Sumatra. (Caniago (talk) 00:00, 15 March 2008 (UTC))

List of Indonesian musicians

following message left in talk at List of Indonesian musicians -( I see no point in leaving such a large list of red links): -

In accordance with policies on other Indonesia project lists - a large number of the red link names need to be greyed or removed - there is no easy or simple way to ascertain whether the musicians actually exist - are notable - in english languange materials.

If you are not a native speaker of english -

  • Adding to this list may be bahaya - sebab kalau name dengan merah-link - orang dari luar belum tahu untuk memeriksa kalau nama - hoax or not.

Please note this is English Wikipedia - we need proof that these musicians actually exist - any help would be appreciated - thanks SatuSuro 04:44, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

My view of "list of" is that lists should only contain items that have wikipedia articles. And, items should only have wikipedia articles if they are notable. --Merbabu (talk) 08:06, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

New articles...

I just started Dwifungsi, and User:Davidelit a more substantial article at Petition of 50. Please review. regards --Merbabu (talk) 10:08, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Indonesian time zones

Hi I tried to create a map showing the Indonenesian time zones in different colours, but it really didn't turn out that well. Would definitely appreciate help here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Crix#Time_Zones_of_Indonesia —Preceding unsigned comment added by Crix (talk • contribs) 17:35, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Infobox Provinces of Indonesia

Hi all. Something has gone wrong with this infobox. The writing of the province name is too big and is left-justified. Could somebody find the time to fix it? See Jakarta and East Java for examples. Davidelit (talk) 05:08, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Issues with contents of articles

Have attracted the interest of an editor who has taken issue with the assertions within the articles - and so far the discussion has occurred on user talk pages - as we are a quite delayed and scattered group of editors at the best of times - I figure if anyone who has the left the door open/kept the noticeboard link - they might want to offer their opinion on the issue - kalau orang dengan sedikit bhs inggeris - orang dari luar mahu memeriksa yang hati hati dengan assertions dalam artikel artikel tentang zaman Sukarno ke Suharto - dan mau lebih banyak citations sebabnya kurang disana. SatuSuro 09:17, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

The main authors of these articles have moved on. One of the articles' drawbacks has been the lack of citations, but most have a long list of sources - just not in-line cited. They certainly need work. While it's great attention has been given, and problems raised, it's a shame it could not have been done with a bit more,um, generosity of spirit (to put it gently).
OK, I will drag myself away from the colonial stuff for now. --Merbabu (talk) 09:44, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Renville Agreement - major expansion

User:Davidelit has done a major expansion of this article. Very nice work indeed. I've bumped the rating from "stub", past "start", and made it "B" class in accordance with the Indonesia project assessment criteria. here Any objections? Any comments to Talk:Renville Agreement please. --Merbabu (talk) 02:22, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Indonesian cities

Hi. I've reorganized the cities, towns and villages in Indonesia by province given the way Indonesia is geographically this makes much more sense as is in coordination with my work on all the other countries. Also the stub categories have already been organized this way some time ago. IN the coming weeks I aim to add about 200 place articles to each new province categories as potentially each province often has several thousand settlements. Given that there are 70,000 odd places in Indonesia, the new organization will prepare for future gorwth and increase coverage on the various different parts of Indonesia by province. In the main category now the main cities in the country can be accessed at the List of Indonesian cities ♦Blofeld of SPECTRE♦ $1,000,000? 13:19, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Hmmmm - some notification before the event would have been nice. Longstanding and knowledgeable project contributors have their own views on this. This was however, clearly a lot of effort on your behalf, and certainly there was a need for some sort of cleanup. Some comments on the work:
  • Level of detail - I feel it's too much for the number of articles. We are left with many category tiers but only a handful of articles in each. Your comments above and the under categorised tag allude to this. While i agree that potentially these categories could indeed be filled with many new articles, I think that wikipedia categories should grow with the encyclopedia - not just cater for theoretical but yet to be realised potential sizes.
  • What's the benefit of the "under populated" tag? It just looks ugly, and we can't really conjure up other towns to go in there. I doubt it's going to encourage others to create them - further, if you intend to create them (which would be great news), do you actually need the tag? Is it thus not just for your benefit?
  • Categories should not have images in them IMO. I'm also not sure about the commons link, but that's not as bad as the image.
Any, just some thoughts. --Merbabu (talk) 03:27, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
There is some very sneaky bot that is doing commons links whether we like it or not in most projects.
Categories in this project are not harmed by maps
Under populated tag made at the same time as creating a category is a bit much - appearance is one thing a spare 100 extra editors to cope with editing anther
Intention of the editor who created it all is that stubs are created for identifiable places (good luck to him) - lets wait and see
The ultimate product will be that each province will end up with few extra thousand stubs with virtually nothing to support them apart from the fact that they exist
Lets see what happens. SatuSuro 11:04, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
Hmm - OK, so I might go ahead and remove the tags. But leave the map - for now. --Merbabu (talk) 11:14, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Bambang Marsono

Who is he? Is he notable? I was about to prod for deletion, but will ask here first. --Merbabu (talk) 04:08, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Not notable I'd say. No Indonesian I have asked has heard of him. And the sentence "leading English course; Oxford Course Indonesia" is not only POV, it's laughable. Absurd that this article exists when there are none for Cik Di Tiro, Kapitan Pattimura (who's on the money here!), Sisingamangaradja XII or Soepomo. So there. Davidelit (talk) 13:04, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for that. (although, you seem to be mistaken about the good captain - note the author). --Merbabu (talk) 13:28, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
My mistake. It was a redlink on List of National Heroes of Indonesia - now fixed. Davidelit (talk) 13:46, 3 May 2008 (UTC)