Talk:Che Guevara

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

↓    Skip to table of contents    ↓

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Che Guevara article.
Article policies
Archives: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17
Former featured article Che Guevara is a former featured article. Please see the links under Article milestones below for its original nomination page (for older articles, check the nomination archive) and why it was removed.
Main Page trophy This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on June 18, 2006.
This is a controversial topic that may be under dispute. Please read this page and discuss substantial changes here before making them.
Make sure to supply full citations when adding information and consider tagging or removing uncited/unciteable information.
Selected content star Che Guevara is part of the selected content on the Communism Portal, which means that it was selected as a high quality Communism-related article.
This article has been reviewed by the Version 1.0 Editorial Team.
Version 0.5
 This article has been selected for Version 0.5 and subsequent release versions of Wikipedia.
To-do list for Che Guevara: edit · history · watch · refresh

(When an item is complete, just delete it)

  • Reading over the article
  • Check whether there are any more facts that need references.
  • Check whether there are any words or phrases that a reader might not understand, that need wikilinks.
  • Read the Manual of Style and check the article for formatting details
  • Check whether all names in the article that can be wikilinked are wikilinked. (Author names in references section have been checked. ☺Coppertwig (talk) 02:26, 13 April 2008 (UTC).)
  • Cuba section
  • Use as ref for the Cuba section Piero Gleijeses' Conflicting Missions: Havana, Washington, and Africa, 1959-1976. (BuddingJournalist's suggestion. Coppertwig has ordered this book.)
  • Whole article
  • Remove any POV
  • References
  • Find ISBN numbers for all books.
  • Check whether some unreliable references are being used, and remove them
  • Check whether some references could be replaced with more reliable ones, such as replacing a news article with a reliable book
  • Fix broken links (See Talk:Che Guevara#Broken links).
  • Check different sources for account of last words, e.g. Mallin, Jay (1968) as cited in comment by Ling.Nut
  • Include Daniel James reference to Che admitting to "several thousand" (or was it 1500?) executions
  • Check verifiability of statement about staying in the Argentine consulate; does Cormier say he was in prison during this period?
  • Find an English-language source to replace Cormier re nickname.
  • Formatting of references (Coppertwig is working on this)

Contents

[edit] Archiving dormant and completed discussions

Cpmpleted Discussions from April 2 - May 23 2008 on this talk page have been moved to Archive 17   Redthoreau (talk) RT 03:45, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Sources

OK, one last note before I belatedly go to bed...

I've repeatedly expressed my surprise at the sources used here. I'd have thought the three main biographies were Anderson, Castañeda, and Taibo. I've been under the illusion that Taibo's is not translated, but have just realized I'm wrong about that. NB that these are all more or less center-to-left-leaning authors, but far to the right of (and in a fundamental sense unsympathetic to) Che. Anderson's basically a liberal (in the classical sense of the term). Castañeda's a former leftie who's spent the past decade or so moving rapidly to the right. Taibo II is probably the furthest left of the three, and indeed he co-wrote a book with Subcomandante Marcos.

I'd suggest that it would be good to add into the mix at least one source that is both scholarly and (basically) sympathetic. I remember seeing Jean Franco present a magnificent critique of all three of the above biographies, but I don't think it's ever been published. (I do have a draft copy myself.) Otherwise, there's Mike Gonzalez's Che Guevara and the Cuban revolution (2004). I haven't read this, but Gonzalez is both a member of the SWP and a sound scholar.

Meanwhile, Hugh Thomas's Cuba or the Pursuit of Freedom is also, as I understand it, a pretty basic source that should be used. Other writers on Cuba that are worth reading include Lou Perez, Toni Kapcia, and Román de la Campa, but I'm not sure off the top of my head whether they've written anything on Guevara. For the exile position, i.e. quite squarely anti-Castro but from a scholarly point of view, there'd be Roberto González Echevarría or Gustavo Pérez Firmat, but I'm likewise fairly sure they've written little if anything on Guevara.

NB, as should be obvious, I'm much more familiar with literary and cultural critics than with historians. And NB also that Cuba is not my particular area. (Which is probably a good thing.) --jbmurray (talk|contribs) 13:21, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Oh, and as I mentioned in an edit summary... I'm surprised there's no mention of Régis Debray for the Bolivian section. He has had volume two of his autobiography just published, if I remember right... I saw a review in the LRB. And he was probably the most significant of the European champions of Guevarism. -- jbmurray (talk|contribs) 14:00, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

JbMurray I agree with your contention that the 3 primary credible biographers are (1) Jon Lee Anderson, (2) Jorge G. Castaneda, and (3) Paco Ignacio Taibo. I have all 3 of their books ~ (1) Che Guevara: A Revolutionary Life (2) Companero: The Life and Death of Che Guevara, and (3) Guevara, Also Known as Che. For a complete list of books related directly to Che Guevara see This list. I have nearly all of these and would be more than happy to look up specific citations. What do you believe would be the best way to incorporate these 3 texts in unison with one another ?   Redthoreau (talk) RT 04:14, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

(outdent:) Regarding those three biographies (and I would probably throw in the Gonzalez, as well as any manifestly anti-Che source that is also reliable--none comes immediately to mind), I'd have thought the most important thing is to cross-check them when it comes to controversial or potentially controversial aspects of Che's life. I've dug up the Franco talk I mentioned and here, for what it's worth, is her brief account of the strengths and weaknesses of each of the major three:

Paco Taibo sticks closest to Che’s own words, citing copiously from his letters and writings and claiming that Che is “this story’s second narrator, the one who matters.” However since Che own words alone represent the voice of truth, the narrative breaks down whenever Che is without words.. Referring to his last hours, Taibo writes, “Now, for the first time the biographer will have to rely only on unfriendly witnesses, many of whom had axes to grind and a vested interests in distorting events and constructing a false account.” In this version, the biographer is unable to contemplate ambiguity,or contradiction and uses selected citation to monumentalize the past.

Anderson who had the advantage of having read Che’s private diaries, follows the well worn rules of U.S. journalism in which everything must pass through the sieve of personality. “What had compelled this son of an aristocratic Argentine family, a medical school graduate, to try and change the world?” . In his search for Che, the man, Anderson does not shun the superfluous ; on the contrary it is essential to his narrative - Che losing his temper and smacking his baby’s bottom, his favorite television programs, the name of his dog. He concludes that “along with his mistakes what is most remembered about Che is his personal example, embodying faith, willpower and sacrifice.“ The continuing significance of Guevara is that the revolutionary values of “self-sacrifice, honesty and dedication to a cause” “have transcended time and ideology to nurture and inspire new generations of fighters and dreamers.” Certain values while embodied in Che can be abstracted from their specificity to become a kind of gold standard for the individual.

Castañeda ‘s biography is a political biography that focuses on y the politics of cold war confrontation and while not shunning personal detail (did Tania sleep with Che?), he is above all interested in the political intricacies of Cuban-Soviet relations, and Cuban- U.S. relations and the exacerbation of the cold war that they implied. Che’s story is told as one of political disillusionment. That is perhaps why Castañeda polishes off the campaign in the Sierra Madre and Escambray in a mere twenty three pages, in contrast to Paco Taibo and Anderson both of whom devote nearly two hundred pages to the revolutionary campaign.

Hope this too-rapid comment is of some help. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 04:56, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] The History Channel's Documentary

Recently the History Channel released a 1 hr 30 min documentary entitled: "THE TRUE STORY OF CHE GUEVARA", where Jon Lee Anderson also narrates parts from his book. You can watch the full film --> Here -- and I would recommend that all editors watch it if they have the chance, as it helps give you a basic overview of his life and the accomplishments/controversy's surrounding it.   Redthoreau (talk) RT 03:57, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Che Guevara en Español

For those that speak Spanish ... the Che Guevara en Español article was a wealth of information that could possibly be incorporated in this article or other Che related articles.   Redthoreau (talk) RT 03:57, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Cuban flag?

I remember there being both a Cuban & Argentinean flag in Che's infobox. Why is it no longer there? He did have Cuban citizenship right? ʄ!•¿talk? 21:03, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

You are correct that both flags were included. I agreed that they should be since he held citizenship in both nations. However at the time I believe another editor disagreed and thus removed the Cuban one. Do any other editors have a view on this?   Redthoreau (talk) RT 05:06, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
I have a view on this and I don't think the Cuban flag should appear in the info box, just because someone has dual citizenship doesn't make them of that nationality, i have citizenship in multiple countries but I am still a New Zealander, so the last editor was correct in removing the flag as it does not really apply in this sense. Taifarious1 05:54, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
I think questions of nationality are pretty irrelevant as they mean different things to different people, the important thing was it alerted the reader to a country that he was affiliated with. I mean it's only two flags, not six or something. ʄ!•¿talk? 11:50, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
After thinking about it more, I retract my earlier statement, I think it would be best to add the Cuba Flag to the info box, the bulk of his revolutionary work took place there and he is also buried there, so I think its entirely suitable to have it in there. ;) Taifarious1 04:06, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

(outdent) Noted and seeing no objection I will add it back.   Redthoreau (talk) RT 05:00, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Grammar Question

This is really getting the best of me. In the third paragraph of the introduction, it currently reads:

 As a result of his death, romantic visage, invocation to armed class struggle, and desire to create the consciousness of a "new man" driven by "moral" rather than "material" incentives [2], he

Is it one "his", a colon after his, or something else? It just doesn't seem right to me.

Thanks in advance for all the help!

Jmole (talk) 04:33, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Wow, thats really uncanny, as I was reading through the article, that exact line stumped me as well, im currently trawling for grammar and spelling issues and adding refs under cite tags, but I was trying to figure this one out, but I haven't been able to, ill have a look into it, but i think its easier to look into it in context so im reading through the ref given to understand it more, if i figure it out ill let you know. Taifarious1 05:01, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
The stated source is in reference to the last 2 parts of the sentence not the full thing (which is still ok as you don't want a plethora of sources in the lead). Jmole, is your question whether the grammar is correct?   Redthoreau (talk) RT 05:12, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Yah, it's a grammar question. It just doesn't flow. Jmole (talk) 13:33, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
I did some minor adjusting ... let me know what you think.   Redthoreau (talk) RT 15:22, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
I think that is much easier to understand, certainly for me anyway, I have fixed a few minor grammar mistakes in the article myself that seemed quite esoteric so to the average viewer I think the change will make much clearer. Taifarious1 00:47, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
Good work, guys! Jmole (talk) 22:08, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

There is a typo here- a common one that can be really irritating: See 4th paragraph "... Alberto Korda photograph of him entitled Guerrillero Heroico (shown), was declared "the most famous photograph in the world."[4] You meant to us the word "titled". The word entitled actually refers to when one has a right to something... an entitlement. Somehow this word has been absorbed into the American lexicon to appear synonymous with the word "titled". Surely the words titled/entitled cannot mean the same thing.

en·ti·tle

Function: transitive verb 1 : to give a title to : designate link. "entitled" is the correct term.   Redthoreau (talk) RT 02:48, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Che's Date of Birth

Che Guevara was born on the 14th of June, not May as the article suggests. This fact is found throughout printed texts on Che Guevara and Cuba. As for online sources, en.wikiquote.org indicates that Guevara's birth certificate says he was born on June 14. The correct date is also given within Wikipedia in the 2007 Schools section at http://schools-wikipedia.org/wp/c/Che_Guevara.htm. I hope that the glaring error from this entry can be corrected and remain correct. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.241.193.195 (talk) 15:45, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

You are incorrect. Biographer Jon Lee Anderson discovered (in the late 90's) that he was in fact born on May 14 a month earlier - and his Mother had the birth certificate falsified so as to make it appear that her and her husband, Che's father were married before consummating. This was because Che's mother was 3 months pregnant when she married and thus they moved his birth up one month, and told family members he was born 2 months premature.   Redthoreau (talk) RT 02:34, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
Bravo Redthoreau! That is some fine investigation, mainly by Jon Lee Anderson, but your explanation was superb. Taifarious1 04:42, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
Is "superb" the appropriate word here? Might not "absurd" be more applicable given the fact that Jon Lee Anderson could not possibly have
"interviewed Che's mother (in the late 90's) and found out that he was in fact born on May 14 a month earlier - and she had the birth certificate falsified so as to make it appear that her and her husband, Che's father were married before consummating. This was because Che's mother was 3 months pregnant when she married and thus they moved his birth up one month, and told family members he was born 2 months premature.'" ?
The reason that Jon Lee Anderson could not possibly have conducted such an interview with Che's mother, Celia de la Serna, in the late 1990's is a simple one: She died on 18 May 1965!!  (And, just for the record, Jon Lee Anderson never conducted any interview with her at any other time either, nor does he pretend to have done so.) -- Polaris999 (talk) 20:53, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

(outdent) I meant to write that Jon Lee Anderson through conducting interviews found out such a fact (that Che's mother admitted to falsifying his birth certificate). The fact is still correct that he was born on May 14 ... not June 14 ... although yes I miswrote that JLA spoke to his Mother to find this out. Polaris do you dispute that he was born on May 14 or that JLA found this out (see pg 5 of his book if curious) ? Either way nice to see you out of hibernation ... even though you only did so to insult me. :o)   Redthoreau (talk) RT 22:03, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Are you sure you mean page 5? What edition of the book are you using? My edition, ISBN 0802116000, has no such statement by Anderson on that page. Could you check the page number? –Mattisse (Talk) 22:14, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
If you have the printed edition (which you must have) it would be page 3 while it seems that the online version link has it on page 5. My apologies for not noting the discrepancy.   Redthoreau (talk) RT 22:21, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
Just out of curiosity, how do you know it is true? Jon Anderson indicates in his rather novelistic opening to his biography of Guevara that this is true, but because someone he interviewed said that, does that make it true? It may be "family lore", for example. Or the astrologer mentioned likes to tell the story, his moment of glory. Is there other evidence? (Not that this is that important one way or the other.) –Mattisse (Talk) 23:27, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
I don't "know" for sure that it is true as I wasn’t there (this applies to almost everything I read in a book) ... all I can do is weigh the evidence and credibility of the author (Jon Lee Anderson) and the fact that he spent 5 years researching Guevara all across the globe (Cuba, Argentina, Russia, Bolivia, Congo, U.S.) --- was given rare access to Che's wife & family, Che's personal diaries, and sealed Cuban documents --- spent several months living amongst Che's family in Argentina --- and thus compiled an 800 page book with 50 pages of footnotes and accompanying sources. It is because of this, that I estimate and trust that Jon Lee Anderson (an investigative journalist by trade) would want to make certain that he was 100 % sure of such a fact - that he clearly states in the opening pages of his biography. In addition, I believe that JLA would most likely have had to of received several corroborating sources in placing his credibility on the line by making this ‘historical correction’, which in some ways could even be viewed as being "offensive" to Che's family.   Redthoreau (talk) RT 00:03, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
It is really not in the same category as a statement that has multiple, reliable, unbiased sources, it it? Then you could know with more confidence. As User:Jbmurray says somewhere, Anderson is one of those biographers who wants to interject the psychodynamics of his subject into the history (Jbmurray didn't use those exact words), but what is the point of that "fact" supposed to be? What is the conclusion the reader is supposed to draw? –Mattisse (Talk) 00:28, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
Since JLA's book was published in 1997, I would imagine that any corroborating sources would have had to of been published after that date - and I am not sure how I would decipher whether those sources were "echoing" JLA's account, or their own. If this is actually a fact that you or other editors question the validity of ... I would be more than willing to seek out further supporting evidence. Are you stating that you personally dispute his findings or have you found evidence/motive to call it into question? Also are you aware of anyone from Che's family, other biographers, or the Che Guevara Institute disputing this claim ?   Redthoreau (talk) RT 00:36, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
I think it plays into the personalization through depicting incidents that then may leave the reader with a conclusion that User:Jbmurray was describing in Anderson that Jbmurray does not like. And it is the "echoing" process that you describe above that enables and proliferates pseudo facts. There is his birth certificate that gives a date. The birth certificated is substantiated. Do you have any reliable, unbiased, third-party evidence that substantiates Anderson's claim that could have been derived from "family lore" or an interview with the astrologer feeding into his role in the myth of the story? (Do we know where Anderson got that, other than conjure?) –Mattisse (Talk) 00:50, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

(outdent) According to JLA the 'substantiated' birth certificate was "falsified" by a "doctor friend" to "avoid scandal." JLA also states that the family moved away to Misiones during the pregnancy and didn't allow family to see Che until he was already a month old. With regards to comments made by User:Jbmurray I don't believe it is clear that Jbmurray questions the validity of JLA, although yes he may have critiqued his style of delivery. If JbMurray (a poster's whose intellect I highly respect) does question this birth date, then I would of course cede to his judgment on the matter (however I am unaware that he actually does) and would be uncomfortable speaking for him. Moreover, am I to impugn from your comments that you question the use of May 14 as his date of birth?   Redthoreau (talk) RT 01:26, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

JbMurray objects to the use of personal tidbits in a biography in an attempt to define character by this method. Anderson opens the biography as if he were writing a novel with this uncited biographical tidbit. The point of citations is to remove the necessity of having to take an author's word that his information is correct by allowing readers to evaluation the source for themselves. By opening the biography with this, Anderson gives this tidbit undue emphasis. What is the relevance of this information to the biography? Does it convey information that cannot be conveyed in any other way, e.g. by a cited source? (And please do not change the wording of posts here.) –Mattisse (Talk) 14:01, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
I find it impossible to participate in this discussion, or any other in which RedThoreau is involved on this Talk Page, because he habitually changes the entries he has previously made on this discussion page whenever it suits his interest. Isn't there a wikipedia policy against this? If so, WHY is it never enforced on this particular Talk Page?
Here is the latest example. After I had pointed out he was in incorrect when he asserted that Jon Lee Anderson had interviewed Che's mother, he then went back and edited his previous entry on the Talk Page, i.e. the one about which I had commented (and which he had made in response to User: 70.241.193.195), in an indexterous attempt to conceal the gravity of his error. You can observe what he did here: Diffs -- Polaris999 (talk) 03:37, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
Polaris. I do not agree with your accusation of "habitually" altering my 'own words'. In this single instance, after you pointed out my instance of misspeaking, I simply corrected my error seeing that you had already quoted me in italics (which I did not edit). I thus figured that it would be obvious to any observer that you quoted me in italics and that I then went and slightly edited out the 3-4 words of mine that were in error. All of this is part of the record (as you display by pointing to the diff). To call my error one of "gravity", I find not only puzzling but disingenuous. The overall premise of my answer was in fact correct - That Jon Lee Anderson reported he was born on May 14 in the late 90's after interviews etc. The only mistake was my typo attributing this to a discussion with his mother - which I obviously know is false as I have read 20 + books on Che Guevara and am well aware of when his Mother died. Furthermore, I am unaware of any official policy governing one’s own words on talk pages (but if in fact there is one you can show me, I apologize for violating it, and will be glad to follow it in the future). I am unsure of why you have picked this opportunity to come out of hibernation, when in fact I have implored your valuable commitment to the article for several weeks (if not months). Anyone who does any investigation in our past correspondence will find that I have always been nothing but respectful, courteous, and overly complimentary of you and your editing capability. I even several times offered to edit while essentially “under your command” and following all of your suggestions. ----- I will continue to be respectful of you - as I value you as an editor, appreciate your past work on the Che article, and consider you a fair person --- regardless of how many times you insult me or impugn my integrity/capability/good faith. I have no interest in confrontation with you and hope that you will find it in yourself to place aside what I deem to be unprovoked hostility towards me.   Redthoreau (talk) RT 05:40, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
Per your request, I am posting here a verbatim excerpt from Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines, specifically the section labelled "Own Comments" :

"It is best to avoid changing your own comments. Other users may have already quoted you with a diff (see above) or have otherwise responded to your statement. Therefore, use "Show preview" and think about how your amended statement may look to others before you save it.

"Altering a comment after it has been replied to robs the reply of its original context. It can also be confusing. Before you change, consider taking one of the following steps:

  • Contact the person(s) who replied (through their talk page) and ask if it is okay to delete or change your text.
  • use strike-through or a place-holder to show the comment has been altered.
    • Strike-through is typed <s>like this</s> and ends up like this.
    • A placeholder is a phrase such as "[Thoughtless and stupid comment removed by the author.]". This will ensure that your fellow editors' irritated responses still make sense. In turn, they may then wish to replace their reply with something like, "[Irritated response to deleted comment removed. Apology accepted.]"
    • Please do not apply strike-through to other editors' comments without permission."

Source: Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines
-- Polaris999 (talk) 06:06, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
Polaris, I appreciate you pointing that out and will in the future do my best to abide by their "suggestion" (I believe I am correct in interpreting that as being the “generally accepted standard” with allowed “exceptions”, and not official declarative policy) --- but nonetheless I understand the inherent implicit rationale of such a standard and if I could redo my actions, I would have inserted a [correction template]. My apologies for not abiding by this 'courtesy' and I hope that in the future you will assume good faith with regards to my actions ... as I always have with yours.   Redthoreau (talk) RT 06:20, 13 June 2008 (UTC)