User talk:Bduke

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[edit] WikiProject Yorkshire Newsletter - May 2008

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[edit] WikiProject Universities Newsletter: Issue VIII (April 2008)

The April 2008 issue of the WikiProject Universities newsletter has been published. You may read the newsletter, change the format in which future issues will be delivered to you, or unsubscribe from this notification by following the link. Thank you for your continued support of WikiProject Universities! —Delivered on 21:28, 2 May 2008 (UTC) by MiszaBot (talk)

[edit] Judy Moran

Hi Bduke. I must admit I am a little surprised by your decision at this AfD. Reading your rationale, I'm not sure if you are deleting based on the subject's lack of notability or based on the current state of the article, admittedly poor. If it is because the article is lacking in context, then this is a content issue not a deletion issue. Given that the article contained links to multiple reliable sources independent of the source and each other, I'm not sure how you could come to a decision that the subject does not meet WP:N.

Regardless of my comments at the AfD, I have no strong feelings about the article, which is why, as well as being busy elsewhere, I did not rush to improve it to save it from deletion. Therefore, I have no intention of rescuing it or taking the issue to DRV. It's just that I am genuinely surprised by the decision to delete. Cheers, Mattinbgn\talk 12:09, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes, there are sources, but they say that she had two husbands and two sons who were gangsters and were killed. That is all that was in the article when it was created and was all that was in the article when I deleted it. There does not appear to be any encyclopedic material on Judy Moran herself. If someone wants to take it to DRV or recreate it with real content then fine, but nobody has added real content to it yet and I do not see any. --Bduke (talk) 21:41, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the explanation. -- Mattinbgn\talk 22:43, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
I'm actually considering taking it to DRV, but like the above busy with real life situations. Just surprised at what you did? See WP:CONSENSUS as it was pretty plain the community was saying keep. Sure the article needed expanding. I found heaps on her television appearances etc. The article needed work but no reason to delete. I think this one should go to DRV as I see that as a pretty poor admin decision. Is there a chance you may restore the article to save us all the hassle of the process. I'm sure this would be a WP:SNOW at DRV.--Sting au Buzz Me... 22:36, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
Well, there were people saying it should be kept, but I still do not see what the content is that could be added. Nothing new has been added in 9 months. It was nominated for deletion by a longstanding admin who I respect. His reasons for deletion were in no way countered in the discussion. If someone can say what encyclopedic content should be added, I would certainly reconsider. What notable information could be added from her TV appearances? --Bduke (talk) 22:50, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
I disagree. The nominating admins reasons were clearly countered. She is a part of the whole crime family scenario as was made apparent from the TV interviews with her and the other mother. As a part of the crime family she is clearly notable i.e. "worthy of notice" notability is distinct from fame, importance or popularity per WP:N. Why delete this anyhow? What's an article on Judy Moran going to hurt in the grand wikipedia scheme of things? Is it encyclopedic? Well for wikipedia it is as if someone does a search for Judy Moran, what are they going to find? I believe in the concept of free information and wikipedia gives that to me. I'm more of an inclusionist than a deletionist. I'm thinking (and I tend to speak my mind a bit too much) that you might be being a tad stubborn on this? I guess at sixty eight you are pretty set in your ways? I've just turned fifty and starting to get a bit more like that myself. So I'm probably stubbornly trying to get my point across too? I still think it was a bad call to delete after an AfD that was a clear keep whether you respect the nominator or not. It was true that nothing much had been added to the article during the AfD but that could be due to people seeing all the "keeps" and thinking well I don't need to go to the trouble now do I? I'll tell you what. How about we make a deal? You restore the article as a keep and I'll get to work on it as I find time and try to improve it. If you (or anyone) thinks it not worthy it can always be Afd again?--Sting au Buzz Me... 23:46, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
Come on, I do not think either of us are being stubborn and age does not come into it. I'm more of an inclusionist than a deletionist too. I am too busy for a while now, but will consider this later. --Bduke (talk) 00:01, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
Fair enough. I hope you restore it. Just to go of on a different tangent. Are you aware that red text box at the bottom of your talk page covers up the replies? Makes it very hard to read the reply unless you go into edit mode.--Sting au Buzz Me... 00:39, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
I've just been bold and restored the article per the section of Wikipedia:Deletion policy which states that "If a page was obviously deleted "out of process" (per this policy), then an admin may choose to undelete it immediately. In such a case, the admin who deleted the page should be informed. However, such undeletions without gaining consensus may be viewed as disruptive, so they should be undertaken with care.". There was a consensus to keep the article at the AfD and I don't think that this deletion was in line with any of the deletion guidelines, as there were no BLP concerns raised. The article was bad and needs a lot of work, but the consensus to keep and existance of reliable sources means that it shouldn't have been deleted. I should add that I voted 'keep' in the AfD, so I perhaps shouldn't have been the admin to overturn this... --Nick Dowling (talk) 10:09, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
Well, fair enough, but are you going to ensure that something notable is added to the article, because as far as I can see there is not anything to add. Nothing substantive has been added since the article was created. That is since July 2007, not just while the debate was going on. As you say, the current article is not satisfactory. If it is just a content issue, then add content, but nobody is telling me what content should be added. You say there are reliable sources, but what content is going to be added from those sources? I just do not see there is anything in the sources. This is a problem with WP:N. Yes, she has been noticed, but do these "sources" give us anything to add to the article. So far, this whole process, nomination for AfD, discussion at AfD, my closure, and your recreation, has not done a damn thing to alter anything about the article. There certainly is not a consensus that the article is satisfactory, even as a small stub. I am happy to wash my hands of it all, but I have to say that I think you should have taken it to DRV rather than being bold. --Bduke (talk) 10:43, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
I'm happy for you to start another AFD or a open a DRV, but lack of content or poor content isn't a reason to delete articles on subjects which have been found to be notable during AfD discussions, and further formal discussions of this seem certain to lead to a keep per WP:SNOW. The challenge is for the editors who voted keep to expand the article. There's nothing wrong per-se with stubs on notable topics and a 9 month old article isn't that old these days. This article needs to be tagged for expansion and brought to the attention of the relevant Wikiprojects. Nick Dowling (talk) 10:53, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
I hadn't thought of the Moran family article either, and I agree that there's a very strong case for the Judy Moran article to be merged into it and then split out later if it gets expanded. regards, Nick Dowling (talk) 03:30, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
Yes DRV would have been better. Because you (Bduke) as far as I can see have still not admitted you did the wrong thing closing the AfD as a delete. You probably can't see that you have done the wrong thing? If so then we do have a problem. Because I no longer trust you to use the tools you have been granted as an admin. Sorry, but that's just how I feel about it. I thought you might have restored the article (as you hinted) but you never got around to it? Just your whole attitude in this matter seems strange to me. Certainly not how I believe an admin should have acted.--Sting au Buzz Me... 11:55, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
Sting au, please AGF. I said I was busy with other stuff and by the time I had time to think about it all, Nick had restored the article. As I thought about I realized that the content was essentially the same as the Moran family so I suggested a merge. If you think there is good material to add to the article, please do so, but currently it is all about her husbands/partners and sons. Whether it is merged or not, good material, if it exists, can be added. If enough is added it could be forked off, if it does get merged. I would like see opinion from a wider group of editors. --Bduke (talk) 12:32, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
I don't think that one bad call, which seems to have been motivated by an intention to enforce WP:BIO rather than any personal agenda, justifies starting the process to remove admin privilages. It's worth noting that admins can over-rule the outcomes of AfD discussions if they believe that keeping the article is a clear breach of policy, though this isn't recomended. Incidently Sting au, if you're concerned about Bduke's actions I don't think that a DRV would have been the appropriate forum to discuss them as these discussions are meant to be focused on whether to restore the article or not - it was my judgement that there was no way that a DRV wouldn't end with the article being restored, so going down this path would be a waste of time. Nick Dowling (talk) 00:46, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] TSA articles

Re Talk:The Scout Association#Renaming the County/Area articles. I would like to close this out. I believe the plan was to rename the articles to "xxx Scout County (The Scout Association)". Let me know where we are going here. --—— Gadget850 (Ed) talk - 21:24, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Hi Ed, I have already started this with the only article so far on the new regions in Scotland - South West Scotland Region (The Scout Association). I was hoping to get these done first, but I am having problems finding enough time and nobody in the UK is assisting with anything really. I suggest we go ahead with "xxx Scout County (The Scout Association)" for England and "xxx Scout Area (The Scout Association)" for Wales. I'm inclined to leave the ones for Scotland as they will be replaced by the Region articles. Northern Ireland is different again. Take a look at User talk:BrownHairedGirl/Archive/Archive 013#Scouting in Northern Ireland. All the articles have been flagged for notability. I am inclined to agree with the idea of a single article for Northern Ireland but only on the Scout Association part of it, and merging all the area articles there. Scouts Ireland in NI can have another article. What do you think of that? If you agree, where do we seek consensus or do we just do it? --Bduke (talk) 23:17, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
England and Wales are done. --—— Gadget850 (Ed) talk - 15:21, 28 May 2008 (UTC)


Thank you for your reply. As I have said, and you seem to agree, pages that simply list TSA Groups end up as nothing other than advertising pages. This is, of course, against Wikipedia policy and would result in their deletion.

"The problem with widening the UK Scout Association Counties is that these counties and areas are not equivalent to any other county definition in their boundaries, at least in many cases. Doing what you suggest would force SA boundaries on the traditional scout associations."

This shows the problem of using TSA internal counties on an open encyclopedia. It would not be a problem were accepted regional boundaries to be employed. These are valid outside of TSA, and where a regional county is served by two or more TSA counties, they could be listed - along with those divisions of Independent Scout Associations that also serve the regional county.

I have, outside of the Scout Project, recreated a Scouting in Norfolk encyclopedia page which lists all Scouting in the regional county. It contains web links to the regional districts, where they have web pages, so that those interested in Groups can obtain extra information. I plan to add additional information relating to Scout activity in the County of Norfolk as I find evidence for it on the internet (as per Wikipedia policy against first-hand research). Once I have this, I then plan add additional reference material about specific Groups, such as 1st Dereham who were the first Group to open in Norfolk. This would seem to be a valid way to progress county pages if it is decided to retain them.

I am slowly trying to add material to the independent Group pages, but this will take time, especially as all information needs to be properly sourced via web links. I'm avoiding the ScoutWiki at the moment, as I seem to be being kept a bit busy here! :) -- DiverScout (talk) 17:46, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

I think the place to discuss this is on the Scout Project talk page (note I have not looked there yet this morning - this is my first edit). There Ed is trying to get a consensus on all this that is not specific to one or two countries. I have some sympathy for your view but more for Australia than the UK as everything is organised by States and Territories in Australia. I think some SA Counties in UK cut across administrative counties as those boundaries of course have changed several times in the last few decades, so I do not think your option is viable. Norfolk is one of the few with an exact correspondence between the aministrative County and the SA Scout County (and the traditional County also). The real problem is that there are too many SA Counties. If England followed Scotland and had a fewer number of regions all would be better. I am sure we can make the 11 Scottish Regions into good articles but 31 Areas would not work and has not worked, although only one on the Orkneys has been deleted. Ed has got some good arguments for the changes we have just made, particularly about treating the different Scout organisations fairly in a NPOV manner. --Bduke (talk) 23:42, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] WikiProject Yorkshire - June 2008 Newsletter

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→ This newsletter/release was delivered by ENewsBot · 11:35, 4 June 2008 (UTC)