Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Medicine

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[edit] Naturopathic medicine

Hello, docs. Anyone familiar with naturopathic medicine? There are four accredited 4-year naturopathic medical schools with equivalent prerequisites and preclinical training to that of allopathic and osteopathic medical schools. Right now, naturopathic medicine is listed as a "complementary and alternative medicine," but when you follow the wikipedia definitions for those terms, you find that they define alternatives to "medicine", or "the science and art of maintaining and restoring human health through the study, diagnosis, and treatment of patients." NDs (Naturopathic Doctors) are licensed to study, diagnose, and treat patients in about 15 U.S. jurisdictions, so I propose that "naturopathic medicine" actually be under the "medicine" category, instead of "complementary and alternative medicine." I look forward to some lively conversation on the topic! Lamaybe (talk) 22:16, 20 May 2008 (UTC) Just to be clear, NDs are trained to use modern diagnostic tests, prescribe pharmaceuticals, do minor surgery, and also to safely use herbs, physical medicine, nutrition, and other non-pharmaceutical therapies. They are licensed to do all of those things in many states, and are legally considered "primary care providers" in most states where they are licensed. Lamaybe (talk) 22:23, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Hi Lamaybe, I see the majority of naturopathic therapies as having failed any scrutiny using the scientific method of investigation. Nk.sheridan   Talk 23:56, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Hi Nk.sheridan, NDs are trained and licensed to prescribe pharmaceuticals; in some states the identical formulary that MDs and DOs use (Washington and Arizona). Those therapies are based in the scientific method, right? NDs are trained and licensed to use botanical medicine (herbs) as well. To find therapeutic uses of herbs, you can just search the latin names of many herbs in pubmed, and find uses for herbs that have been confirmed using the scientific method. For example, silybum, urtica, vaccinium, withania. They are also trained and licensed to use nutritional therapies, and various forms of physical medicine, which have certainly been found to have therapeutic benefit in peer reviewed journals. If you are referring to homeopathy, I will admit that is a hot topic--many scientists feel that scientific scrutiny has shown it to be overall inefficacious, and there are others (including the authors of peer-reviewed meta-analyses) who feel the opposite. Certainly not a clear-cut failure of scrutiny, but a hotbed of controversy! I'd love to know any other thoughts you have on the matter, thanks! Lamaybe (talk) 02:58, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

In UK Naturopaths are not normally medically trained, and would advocate dietary & supplement therapy be taken by their customers rather than seeking conventional doctors and receiving conventional medications - as such very definitely seen as alternative rather than even complementary. So, from a non US-centric perspective, definitely should not come under the "medicine" category (that US has "quaint" multiple routes to being a doctor, as per osteopathy, does not alter more global perspective of practices being very different to US). David Ruben ^Talk 03:05, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree with NK and David that we cannot let the remarkable situation in the USA dominate the classification of naturopathic medicine. It is CAM by generally agreed standards. The fact that they do some mainstream stuff as well does not make it mainstream. JFW | T@lk 05:44, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

I will admit to U.S.-centrism here, but I think "complementary" is the operative term. Many naturopaths (at least those I've interacted with, which is an admittedly skewed sample) view "mainstream" medicine as indispensible in dealing with things like appendicitis, HIV/AIDS, operable cancer, and so forth, and view naturopathic remedies more in terms of a complementary modality aimed at maintaining optimal health rather than an alternative to proven medical treatments. I think "complementary" is appropriate, if not "alternative". MastCell ^Talk 19:54, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Right, thanks for the global perspective NK and David. After considering your comments, I think maybe the best thing to do is follow the model of the "osteopathy" and "osteopathic medicine" entries, which both refer to one another and cover both the global and US definitions of those terms. Just as DOs in the US practice medicine, and are trained in a CAM therapy as well, NDs in the US practice medicine and are trained in CAM therapies. However, there are non-medically trained osteopaths and naturopaths worldwide who are not licensed to diagnose and treat patients. In fact, editors on the talk page of the "naturopathic medicine" entry have recently been discussing splitting the article. Any insight from this camp? Thanks! Lamaybe (talk) 20:09, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Even if "naturopathic medicine" and "naturopathy" were two separate articles, I still do not think naturopathic medicine would belong in the medicine category for the reasons mentioned above. Yes, the CAM roots of naturopathic medicine are similar to osteopathic medicine, but naturopathic medicine is still considered non-conventional medicine. Currently, practitioners of naturopathic medicine do not have the same education (no internship/residence requirement) or practice rights as MDs and DOs. Once US state licensure is identical for ND and MD/DO nationwide (and there are no places where it is illegal), then naturopathic medicine would belong in the medicine category. Additionally, I would not add the ND schools to List of medical schools in the United States, even if the preclinical years are similar. Having an ND degree leads to a very different career than a MD or DO degree, and it would be misleading to group ND schools with MD/DO schools together in one list. --Scott Alter 21:44, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

In most states where NDs are licensed, they can practice as primary-care physicians after passing their clinical boards, without completing a residency. A residency is required before being licensed in Utah, and has been written into proposed (but not yet passed) licensing bills in states like New York. In some states (Arizona, Washington), NDs have the same practice rights as MDs and DOs. In other states, the practice rights are different, but in all states where naturopathic doctors are licensed, they are licensed to diagnose and treat patients. I think that is the key to why naturopathic physicians are practicing medicine; as wikipedia's "medicine" article leads: "Medicine is the science and art of maintaining and restoring human health through the study, diagnosis, and treatment of patients" which is clearly what NDs are trained and licensed to do. I think the ND schools could be included in the List of medical schools in the United States, if the lead of the article clearly distinguishes what the difference in the potential careers are. Or, the lead of that article could direct to a separate "List of naturopathic medical schools in the US" article. Lamaybe (talk) 21:04, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't see a huge problem with a separate or clearly separated list of recognized naturopathic schools, some of which probably also have their own articles by now. As far as what schools to list, [1] is a good place to start. Naturopathy is a different approach and isn't broadly recognized, but a licensed ND (at least in Oregon) still has substantial recognized medical training. The problem is that there are a lot of quacks and dubious correspondence schools. Adding a list will invite substandard schools (and/or diploma mills) and their students to add themselves in order to get some sort of legitimacy (or publicity) and the list would have to be watched.Somedumbyankee (talk) 00:20, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

I created an article; Naturopathic medical schools in North America, and linked to it from Medical schools in the United States. If anyone thinks it should be linked to from List of medical schools in the United States, please do so. I think that there might be a touch of controversy about linking from that entry, so I probably shouldn't be the one to do it. In writing the entry, I discovered that there already is an article entitled List of accredited naturopathic medical schools in North America. Lamaybe (talk) 07:51, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] OK, now I am confused....

OK, a while ago I noted we had delirium and organic brain syndrome, which I pondered on merging but after some discussion we kept separate. Now I find mental confusion and foggy brain...now I am confused....which shall we rationalise to what? Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 21:49, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

I've speedied "foggy brain". Whoever wrote it must have had grade II encephalopathy at least. JFW | T@lk 22:09, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

And its buddy brain fog is on AFD. Please vote, for sanity's sake. It's a hypochondriac's lunch out there! JFW | T@lk 22:12, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Good call. I suspect there may be some other articles out there too. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 22:55, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Let me know if anything needs speedying. Foggy brain met the criteria for being patent nonsense. There must be others that do not require AFD to be resected with a generous margin. JFW | T@lk 05:55, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

I'll keep you posted. I could speedy a few myself but I do generally err on the side of caution :) Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 06:09, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

I think the "mental confusion" article is the "real thing". That article needs some... work. The lead isn't awful, but a lot if it isn't very well written. That's the "confusion" linked in the Alzheimer's article, and confusion redirects there. Somedumbyankee (talk) 06:25, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Note chemobrain (aka Post-chemotherapy cognitive impairment), which I've worked on a bit and there definitely seems to be use of in MEDRS; I saw one reference which could/should have gone there. It's a real deal, don't know about the rest. WLU (talk) 18:32, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Peer review request

I have practically finished work on subarachnoid hemorrage. It offers a comprehensive perspective on an absolutely catastrophic condition, from diagnostic conundrums to quality of life in survivors. All statements are now sourced, and I have even tried to give a fair representation of the "clipping vs coiling" debate that continues to rage.

Before I submit this for good article candidacy I would very much like anyone to see what I've overlooked or misrepresented, and offer advice on improvements. Images, too, are welcome. JFW | T@lk 12:22, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

I would also highly appreciate a quick review of Wilson's disease. This one is also ready for GAC otherwise. JFW | T@lk 10:58, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

SAH got promoted! Thanks to everyone who helped out. JFW | T@lk 09:50, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] AFD

When y'all done reviewing SAH and Wilson's, please have a look at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Scrambler therapy. JFW | T@lk 12:38, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] WP:Notability#Medical topics?

How I wish there was a page called that. I found this page, created by Mswalid, which is orphaned and virtually untouched except Mswalid and an anon account who is almost certainly the same person. There are two references, both to the same authors. So, is it notable? Should it be deleted? WP:N can't really apply to most medical topics since the popular press isn't going to write articles on most medical topics. As a rule of thumb for any symptom scales I'd probably use a validation study as a cut-off (but that's just me). Thoughts? Pubmed turns up a link to one of the references that uses, but does not validate the scale. WLU (talk) 16:59, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Drug treatment programs are pretty secretive by necessity, and that sounds like something they would use, so a lot of the information may not be out on the web. Is there any indication who Walid and Robinson are and if they are notable and/or reliable?Somedumbyankee (talk) 18:13, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Walid turns up 4 publications of fairly diverse topics, Robinson 27 (pubmed being of course unreliable for names since it doesn't distinguish Mark from Michael). Looks like Robinson does a lot of spine work, with a lot of gaps in publication (first is in 1972). From what I can guess it looks like a mixed bag of journals - some good, some minor. It might be reliable, but is it notable? I've no idea. Based on the two publications that exist, what can be said about it? Google scholar turns up only the one hit that's already in the page. A near complete lack of sources makes for a very limited article. WLU (talk) 18:29, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Failing some sort of stronger indication who the creators are, the history of the scale, or some other external source, I'd probably fold it into a list or an article on pain management. I don't recognize the journal, but I'm no expert (when I see OD I think EIA testing). My guess for notability is to use things like established medical dictionaries, WHO criteria, as well as the Lancet and JAMA and such as surrogates for the "popular press".Somedumbyankee (talk) 18:04, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Smooth tongue

Hello I hope I'm right here. In the german Wikipedia I've found an article with the lemma of smooth tongue it's an atrophy of the tongue in liver disease (e.g. liverchirrhosis or pernicious anemia). do you have any article for it, I didn't find anything, thanks and best regards--Cestoda (talk) 18:05, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Many of those physical signs have not been studied systematically and some are legendary but are never seen (or always missed). PMID 13548819 seems to have established it as a sign of chronic liver disease in the German literature. Pernicious anaemia, by the way, is not a liver disease. I think the main finding in smooth tongue is B12 deficiency. If we are to believe Full text at PMC: 2201441, the tongue was examined much more closely in 1924. JFW | T@lk 18:17, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Here we are: deficiencies of riboflavin, niacin, folic acid, B12, pyridoxine, or iron. Rarely chemotherapy drugs. "Specific diagnosis is often difficult" - Hoekelman, Robert A.; Bates, Barbara J.; Bickley, Lynn S (1995). A guide to physical examination and history taking. Philadelphia: Lippincott. ISBN 0-397-55053-7. . JFW | T@lk 18:29, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Watchful waiting

The above article has been moved to Medical Observation, without discussion, for the second time in two weeks. I am of the opinion that "medical observation" is waaay too broad a term to be considered synonymous with watchful waiting, not to mention far less established. Any thoughts before I revert the move—again? Fvasconcellos (t·c) 21:55, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

"Watchful waiting" doesn't necessarily imply medical, though all of the first page of google hits are on that term and cancer and I've never heard it any other context. Medical observation implies inpatient to me, whereas watchful waiting sounds more like the outpatient experience. Sounds like there very well could be two articles, or one article that includes both concepts. I don't see a burning need to have the main article be at either location.Somedumbyankee (talk) 22:11, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Historically, medical observation was a very broad concept. The modern concept is quite narrow and refers to close monitoring in an attempt to "capture" a fleeting sign or symptom. Neither of those concepts has much in common with watchful waiting. Re the historical concept, see Lectures on the Principles and Methods of Medical Observation and Research, published in 1857.[2] --Una Smith (talk) 02:49, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

I will copy this section to Talk:Watchful waiting. --Una Smith (talk) 02:49, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, Una (and Arcadian :). Fvasconcellos (t·c) 14:46, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Medicine Collaboration of the Fortnight: Physical therapy

	The current Medicine Collaboration of the Week is Physiotherapy.
	Last week's collaboration was Long-term effects of alcohol.

NCurse _work 20:05, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Two articles needing attention

A new stub that would love some TLC - Penetrating atherosclerotic ulcer - and an expanded and equivocal page on a new-ish topic, that could use an expert - Acute aortic syndrome. First WP:MED contributor to expand gets a barnasterisk (the next level below the minor barnstar)! They're also both orphans, and I'm not sure about where to link. WLU (talk) 01:02, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure whether acute aortic syndrome shouldn't be merged with aortic dissection. Because that's basically what it is. JFW | T@lk 05:31, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Respectfully, I disagree. "Acute aortic dissection" refers to a group of diseases that have some similarities in symptoms. Only one of the relevant diseases is aortic dissection. I have added a reference to the AAS article and clarified the lead. Axl (talk) 16:47, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

It is an attempt to push acute coronary syndrome into the aorta. JFW | T@lk 16:59, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

To "push ACS into the aorta"? Er, I don't understand. Axl (talk) 17:05, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Since there's a variety of articles on pubmed (admittedly they seem to be middling-low quality), I'm inclined to leave it separate. A reference discussing the two being the same would go a long way towards convincing me at least, can't speak for others. I've not looked into references that are critical of it as a separate entity, and any critical articles would be good integration even if it stays separate. WLU (talk) 22:32, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Linking WikiProject Medicine to Wikisurgery

I am an editor of Wikisurgery - a free wiki with a focus on operative detail.

The detail takes the form of operative scripts.

A script consists of an unlimited number of very small operative steps, each backed up by an unlimited amount of expert information.

A script may contain 10 times or more the information in an operative textbook or in a "How I do it" article. http://www.wikisurgery.com/index.php?title=Aortic-aneurysm-graft-Operationscript

The scripts may form an experience equivalent for the trainee.

For the trained surgeon, they should provoke discussion, argument and ultimately, progress in operative technique.

Surgeons can produce their own variants of the scripts to suit their exact preferences.

Derivatives of the Wikisurgery scripts include operative training programs for basic surgical skills and basic laparoscopy. http://www.wikisurgery.com/index.php?title=Scalpel_07_How_to_use_a_scalpel

http://www.wikisurgery.com/index.php?title=Basic_laparoscopy:_Cholecystectomy_07.08.00_On-patient_equipment_preparation_and_checks

There is also detailed customisable information for patients undergoing the operations described in Wikisurgery scripts. http://www.wikisurgery.com/index.php?title=Aortic-aneurysm-graft-PatientInformation

I think that your users would benefit from this new, very detailed, but loosely formatted and ever changing information.

One problem is how to connect with the precise, referenced style of WikiProject Medicine.

Rather than constraining Wikisurgery information into the WikiProject Medicine format, I suggest that simple links between the two

systems would be beneficial to both.

The content of Wikisurgery is to be peer reviewed and articles (over 1000 at present) are to be "Approved" as in Citizendium.

http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/DNA.

Wikisurgery and its sister publication, the International Journal of Surgery, have editorial boards of very high surgical standing.

Would WikiProject Medicine consider treating Wikisurgery as a reliable source of information suitable for linking?

Michael Harpur Edwards (talk) 10:36, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for engaging in a general discussion over these links, vs just inserting into multiple articles. Generally Wikipedia is not a directory nor collections of external links, and we certainly do not give instruction to readers or specifically advise looking off site as per this edit. However a few external links are used in such templates as {{Infobox Disease}} & {{Infobox Symptom}}, but there is no infobox (yet) used on articles to do with operations or procedures. Perhaps other project members might like to comment on that too.

You state "is to be peer reviewed", does that mean that they are not yet peer reviewed, if so then that IMHO is problematic:

• A wiki would generally count as either original research, or if of an encylopaedic nature (such as Wikipedia itself) then a tertiary source (see Wikipedia:No original research#Primary, secondary, and tertiary sources)
• Without clear peer review, then also need to consider Wikipedia:Verifiability#Self-published sources (online and paper) with its caveats of what helps make a particular case a reliable source.

David Ruben ^Talk 14:09, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

I just had a look around your Wikisurgery website. I'm not a surgeon, but I see that it could become very useful for trainee surgeons, and potentially even senior surgeons. At the moment, the quality is rather variable, with some pages containing long blocks of text. This makes difficult reading. Similarly, the referencing is variable. At present, I do not consider the site to be sufficiently reliable for Wikipedia's standards. I wish your contributors good luck with your endeavour. Axl (talk) 15:58, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Had a look at the Aortic-aneurysm-graft-Operationscript link that you suggested above - huge amount of detail and clearly shows potential for Wikisurgery as a tool for surgeons. That level of detail though is not appropriate to link to for a general readership from Wikipedia (in similar vein to Wikipedia not having links for a particular car to its online garage maintenance manual). The Aortic-aneurysm-graft-PatientInformation.pdf link though seems better, although information is very specific as an info sheet for one hospital

• eg the how to complain gives details for that one hospital
• clinical information also seems very specific - is time in ITU, maintenance on epidural analgesia, stay in hospital etc fairly uniform between hospitals or is there considerable variation that the hospital-specific infosheet might mislead patients due to be operated at other hospitals ?

Final query, you mentioned script generated material, but the wikisurgey links I've seen all have empty wikipages with links to fixed PDF format documents - could you clarify this :-)

I applaud the wikisurgery concept and the willingness for specialists to offer their expertise in a freely accessible wiki format with logical hierarchical & comprehensive layout... I'm just not sure of appropriateness to cross link (certainly not for surgeon's material, and as for patient infosheets... see Wikipedia:General disclaimer "Not professional advice -- If you need specific advice (for example, medical, legal, financial, or risk management) please seek a professional who is licensed or knowledgeable in that area." and the wording of theWikipedia:Medical disclaimer) - lets see what others think. David Ruben ^Talk 21:30, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't see why we couldn't link to Wikisurgery from articles on surgical procedures if the article on Wikisurgery is of good quality. I would treat this on a case-by-case basis. The questions is also: how could Wikipedia benefit from a collaboration with Wikisurgery, apart from just links? --Steven Fruitsmaak (Reply) 22:58, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

MHE asks, Would WikiProject Medicine consider treating Wikisurgery as a reliable source of information suitable for linking?

"Reliable source" is used here as a term of the art, and I thinnk that the question here is actually just about external links, not about using it as a reference in an article. Generally, I could imagine a link to some Wikisurgery pages in articles about techniques, but not probably not so much in articles about diseases and conditions. So "How to hold a scalpel" might be an interesting external link with encyclopedic value in Scalpel, but I probably wouldn't link "How to remove a gallbladder" to Cholecystectomy, because I don't think it will have encyclopedic value (e.g., of interest to non-professionals and non-patients).

Other editors might make other choices, however, and I don't think we want to make a general rule at this time.

What you might do: Please don't add links to the articles yourself, because you technically have a WP:COI problem. Please pick a couple of your best articles (the ones with the most "encyclopedic" information), and propose them, one by one, on the talk pages for relevant articles. If any regular editor agrees with you, then s/he will add it to the article for you. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:18, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Childhood obesity

I've just merged a redundant article into childhood obesity. It contained some unreferenced medical claims. The studies cited in the existing text may also confuse correlation and causation. It would be very helpful if someone familiar with the state of scientific consensus on these issue reviewed the article for accuracy. Thanks, Beland (talk) 22:29, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Mmmm, spammy

But there's still value, so I'm throwing this before the court of medical opinion. Special:Contributions/LearnAnatomy, latest round is adding a link to a website. There's value, perhaps as an EL, but is it enough? Hm... Advise, guide, delete, block, I'm throwing this in the lap of whoever's in the lounge. WLU (talk) 22:57, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

The images seem copyrighted and are watermarked, I would be inclined to delete them and revert for spamming. Don't believe the 3D effect adds enough to deserve external link, because it lacks a general educational context. Wouldn't directly block, just engage in discussion -it's probably well intended. --Steven Fruitsmaak (Reply) 23:05, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Proposal : clinical journal club

Hi all,

one of the things I find interesting about editing Wikipedia is that you can learn about new developments in medicine and write an article about them at the same time. I'd like others to share in this experience, and I'd like to set up a kind of journal club for this.

The idea is that anyone can suggest Wikipedia articles on current 'hot topics', or subjects you believe that some of your colleagues might find interesting or may not have heard of yet. The article should be of a reasonably good standard and length and it should be well referenced, so that others could also retrieve any relevant articles.

Participants in this journal club would get regular suggestions of topics they might be interested in. We might also have a discussion about this topic, although this might end up in comments which might be more useful in a designated WikiProject subpage. It might become our regular virtual teaching moment.

To prove the topic is hot, there would have to be some references from recent articles (although the definition of 'recent' might vary according to the subject; it could be a concept that only emerged during the last 10 years, and is still gaining momentum slowly). These references could also be used to improve the article. I imagine it to be something more dynamic than could supplement the current Collaboration. Of course, it's also a way to attract others to your articles and get them to copy-edit.

Some of these ideas might be integrated with Wikiversity's School of Medicine, although I fear that this might deter some of you from participating. As an example of journal club articles which are possibly relevant to many doctors but haven't received much attention from others yet, I would suggest two articles I recently worked on: healthcare-associated pneumonia and cystatin C. I could imagine that other articles such as Dipeptidyl peptidase-4 inhibitors or coronary artery calcium might also be developed into useful learning activities for many of us.

Thoughts?

--Steven Fruitsmaak (Reply) 23:48, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

I think this is a great idea. I would volunteer to handle various physical medicine articles; that is my area of specialization. It would great if we could get a multidisciplinary approach as well, incorporating the best evidence of each so all POV are covered and add overall depth and breath to the material. Thoughts? CorticoSpinal (talk) 05:09, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Hello. I'm not a member here and am not medically trained, but self-taught in the area of Circadian rhythms because of my own disorder. Sleep medicine seems to be a stepchild, with all too many doctors unable to diagnose (or even guess, in order to be able to suggest an appropriate specialist) beyond depression, apnea and narcolepsy. There have been tremendous advances the last years, but I don't know if the subject is "hot" enough for you, or perhaps it's too wide a field?

Anyway, for my own use in trying to work on related articles, I've created a Sandbox page which just might be of interest to others wanting to coordinate some of the material on Wikipedia. (And competent people are welcome to fix any misunderstandings I may have introduced into pertinent articles!) --Hordaland (talk) 03:08, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Hi Steven, I'm unclear on the nature of the beast. How is this different from MCOTW (for group work) and posting current projects or interesting links here? WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:10, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Posting interesting links per se is not promoted here (unless for GA review and such). It differs from MCOTW in that the accent is not on editing but on learning and maybe editing in the process. The idea is to use Wikipedia as a vehicle for keeping up to date with new evolutions and hot topics in medicine. --Steven Fruitsmaak (Reply) 16:34, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] TBI

Is there a radiation oncologist or other interested party in the house? For some reason, I've decided to work on total body irradiation, an unloved and neglected stub, and could use some more expert input. MastCell ^Talk 20:11, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

We used to have Brim (talk · contribs) - but he's been doing the textbook on Wikibooks and I haven't seem him around for ages. JFW | T@lk 21:44, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

I forgot, there's User:Djma12 - I left a note on his talk page. I was also thinking we should have articles on radiation pneumonitis and fractionation (radiotherapy) - I've put them on my to-do list. MastCell ^Talk 17:33, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] ANI

WP:ANI#Da Costa's, just under the 3rr threshold may interest some editors here. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:02, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Y Done user blocked again for edit warring and warned re incivility to other editors. David Ruben ^Talk 00:30, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] List of open tasks

Does anyone here ever look at our official "list of open tasks" and try to address them? I've been wondering for some time whether we should replace it with a suggestion to post a note on this talk page instead. What do you think? WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:42, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

I look at it sometimes, and I have even tried adding a few pet tasks to the list, but I have not found it very useful. To use the list requires I visit the article's talk page to see what exactly is needed, which is an extra step and often does not reveal what exactly is needed. I prefer to read and often respond to the thoughtful, to-the-point appeals for help posted here on this talk page. --Una Smith (talk) 04:29, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] TOC

Please let us have the TOC closer to the top of the page. Put the assessments infobox lower down? Also, is it possible to put the caption on the "mess" next to it rather than below it? The TOC is the navigational aid I use most often and at this time I have to scroll down 2 or 3 window lengths to read the bottom of it. --Una Smith (talk) 04:33, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Of course; I've had a go, just be bold. --Steven Fruitsmaak (Reply) 08:11, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Need help finding cites for Blood Donation

I have cites for most of the text, but I need some help with the following:

1. Link between risk of hypovolemic shock and cardiac problems (is it cardiogenic shock that's the problem?)
2. Rates of arterial sticks and nerve damage from phlebotomy phoul-ups.

Any comments or review are helpful, trying to get this article in shape by the WHOliday and I'm leaving for a business trip on Monday.Somedumbyankee (talk) 00:06, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

I did some of this work for blood transfusion back in 2007, though it should probably be merged. Actually, it looks like someone removed it from the article - bastards! :) Anyhow, take a look at this historical version: [3]. Relevant refs are PMID 11778059, PMID 16202053, PMID 12702180. Hope that helps, and apologies if you've already seen and used these refs. MastCell ^Talk 20:19, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] myocardial infarction: signs and symptoms

I want to make sure the article is as accurate as possible. Please see my comments on Talk:heart attack. 69.140.152.55 (talk) 04:44, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Looking for Translation from German Wikipedia page on REFLEXES

this is an amazing page = it even has tibialis posterior reflex!

Can someone please translate this in to english???

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eigenreflex

Thank you!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.151.226.68 (talk) 02:37, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Suggstion for the Tables that go under the picture of the muscle - showing innervation, blood supply, etc

I would suggest also adding Nerve Root.

This would be useful for say the foot drop in the Physical exam of walking on heels.

And it would tie it in to anatomy. You could look at a muscle, say: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tibialis_anterior and look at the nerve roots involved in the nerve supplying that muscle...

That way you could learn about nerve root injuries.

Thoughts? 207.151.226.68 (talk) 02:55, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] The LGBTProject and its relation to HIVAIDS

A debate is going here which could use input from editors from outside our project. If any editors can voice an opinion there, please do so. Thankyou. The Bookkeeper (of the Occult) 12:19, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Cite journal now has PubMed Central parameter

{{cite journal}} now has a pmc parameter to link to PubMed Central's repository of free full-text versions of articles.

See discussion at Template talk:Cite journal#Pubmed Central, I'm still in favour of linking a paper's title using the pmc where no url is yet specified - but after doi linking dispute (and doi is not always to full article but often just an abstract like pmid) also apparently a view of not linking huge amount to single website, which I can sort of understand.

Hence:

{{cite journal |author=Viollet B, Andreelli F, Jørgensen SB, ''et al'' |title=The AMP-activated protein kinase alpha2 catalytic subunit controls whole-body insulin sensitivity |journal=J. Clin. Invest. |volume=111 |issue=1 |pages=91–8 |year=2003 |month=January |pmid=12511592 |pmc=151837 |doi=10.1172/JCI16567 |url=http://www.jci.org/articles/view/16567 }}

→ Viollet B, Andreelli F, Jørgensen SB, et al (January 2003). "The AMP-activated protein kinase alpha2 catalytic subunit controls whole-body insulin sensitivity". J. Clin. Invest. 111 (1): 91–8. doi:10.1172/JCI16567. PMID 12511592. PMC:151837. 

Been suggested that the pmid format is odd as would better in keeping shown perhaps as PMID:12511592 rather than PMID 12511592 -what do others think ? David Ruben ^Talk 21:58, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

P.S. I have asked User:Diberri whether his great template filler tool can complete this new parameter too... David Ruben ^Talk 22:00, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

I think a link to PMID would be quite nice. Shouldn't there be a space between the colon and the accession number, though? Fvasconcellos (t·c) 22:30, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

There is a gap in the underlining with the ":" for doi & pmc currently, I don't mind whether we add a space or not (my preference is not) just that need a consensus of some form to move away from PMID 1234 type display :-) David Ruben ^Talk 00:53, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for sorting this out, David. Now we need a bot (the DOI bot, perhaps) to change all instances of {{PMC}}. JFW | T@lk 08:48, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Can PubMed Central be mined in the same way that PMID can be to get all the xml information to fill in a full {{cite journal}} template ? Do we need ask Diberri whether to provide a new PubMed Central option, as well as the PubMed PMID, for filling out the cite journal template ?

Finally, I for one have used PMC up until now as an extra within ref tags, hence "<ref>{{cite journal | ..... }} - {{PMC|123456}}</ref>" - could a bot find and edit these or is this a manual job ? David Ruben ^Talk 23:44, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Diberri has kindly upgraded his tool to use pmc article numbers to generate full cite journal markups too (see example) :-) David Ruben ^Talk 22:55, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Template:Chest trauma?

Can anyone comment on this template I was thinking of making? I'd like to add it as a navbox to chest trauma articles, but I kind of don't know what I'm doing. Can anyone see anything on there that does not belong or anything not on there that does? Any ideas for the name of the last group? Anyone want to comment on the advisability of such a template to begin with? delldot on a public computer talk 02:51, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Oh well, it's created now, any input still of course welcome. delldot talk 06:50, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Infobox Eye

The many pages on eye anatomy lack a common infobox. Would someone here make one, please? I'd like one that uses an image like Image:Eye scheme mulitlingual.svg, which has numbers instead of names; the names can be wikilinked in a list below the image. This accomodates easy language localization: one image, many name lists. --Una Smith (talk) 15:09, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Tadaaaah: make way for the king of the infoboxes, King Arcadian the First. JFW | T@lk 19:15, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

{{Middle ear map}} makes excellent use of imagemap functionality (which is criminally underused IMHO). Perhaps something similar could be whipped up, with numbers linking to the articles on corresponding structures? Fvasconcellos (t·c) 19:41, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Golly, you're right! Perhaps we could entice the creator of that beautiful template (Selket) to perform the same feat for ocular anatomy. It is, after all, in the eye of the beholder. JFW | T@lk 22:20, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, that's the ticket. Imagemap probably would be even better ... although the eye image I have in mind has 15 labels. Anyway, images with text in them are not the way to go; too non-portable. --Una Smith (talk) 02:26, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Collaboration Dashboard

Is your Collaboration Dashboard automated by a bot or do you do it manually. I would like to do the same thing at WP:CHICAGO--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 16:40, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

It's updated by us. I mean we edit it manually. Let me know if you have problems while creating the same template for your project. NCurse _work 18:16, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Synaptogenomics

Anyone heard of this Up for deletion. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 21:52, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Article list on this page

The grid on the top-right shows top, high, and mid importance Neurology articles, not Medicine articles. Not sure how to fix it. Somedumbyankee (talk) 02:56, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

It looks like someone miscategorized the neurology importance categories into Category:Medicine articles by importance, and the WP 1.0 bot picked up the wrong importance categories. I fixed the neurology categories, and the table should correct itself the next time the WP 1.0 bot comes across the category (probably in a few days). --Scott Alter 04:00, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Fresh eyes

I have been working hard on Heterochromia, Tapetum lucidum, and Red-eye effect, and also cataloging related images on Commons and tweaking the content of many links. At this point it would help to have some fresh eyes look over the articles. Heterochromia may need to be broken up (and part of it merged with Odd-eyed cat); several unrelated phenomena are described. --Una Smith (talk) 05:02, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Perianal Hematoma's treatment

Dear docs, I was sitting in a hard/uncomfortable chair for 5 hours straight and after I reached home, I felt a pain around my anus. After checking in the mirror, I saw a blueish round sac with just near my anus. When I touch it, it hurts (not that much) and it seems that it contains a solid thing (clot?) I've checked the sites and googled and reached to the Perianal Hematoma page. The photo is same as my case. What should I do? wait a couple of days? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.207.215.194 (talk) 15:58, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

We cannot offer medical advice. Please see the medical disclaimer. Contact your General Practitioner. -Optigan13 (talk) 17:29, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Sprained ankle

I believe the article Sprained ankle needs attention from an expert - see the tags I've left. --Dbutler1986 (talk) 22:51, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] ganglioside

i added WPMED template to ganglioside since ganglioside degredation is the mechanism involved in Tay-Sachs disease —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.151.232.3 (talk) 23:55, 8 June 2008 (UTC)