Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Indigenous peoples of Australia

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[edit] Proposed collaboration/sub-project

I note this 'project' is tagged as being under construction.

I'm not sure how Riana (talk) (who appears to have initiated this project) wishes others to contribute .. but I do wish to draw attention to discussion here recommending a project exactly like this!!

You'll see from the discussion that I have volunteered to start working on Aboriginal deities/ancestral beings/or mythical characters starting from North Queensland! You may also note that I have started upgrading the Australian Aboriginal mythology article, and have been very slowly working through North-East Queensland's geological and other topographical features documenting their original names and place within local indigenous cultural landscapes. I guess you can include me, and I'd like to sign up as a contributor to this proposed project?!

I'll watch!! Bruceanthro (talk) 14:16, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Hi Bruce, please feel free to contribute in any way you feel is fit. I haven't started mapping out exactly how to cover topics but I should have a plan by the middle of this week :) Thanks very much for your interest and keep watching ;) ~ Riana ⁂ 14:30, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Deities, gods, goddesses or not

There is plenty to think about at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2008 January 8#Category:Aboriginal goddesses. If some of the discussion there is correct, we should perhaps rename List of Australian Aboriginal deities. Do Aboriginal people have a concept of deities? --Bduke (talk) 22:53, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

:To tackle the question first: 'Do Aboriginal people have deities?':
i. A very quick search of Wikipedia for Australian Aboriginal religion reveals there is no such article (to date), and the closest are the references within Indigenous Australians and Indigenous Australian culture to Australian Aboriginal belief systems.
ii. Australian Aboriginal deities (or Gods + Goddesses for that matter] without Australian Aboriginal religion or religious beliefs .. simply can not exist in life, and, arguably, can not properly exist as deities (or Gods + Goddesses) on Wikipedia
iii. perhaps this Wikiproject could start working up the necessary articles on Australain Aboriginal religion and/or Australian Aboriginal belief systems .. and, in doing so, we might all see whether any verificable deities [plus Gods & Goddesses] are so 'revealed' (or reveal themselves!!)
iv. a search of the Encyclopaedia of Aboriginal Australia shows NO ENTRIES for either the word Deity, or the words God/Goddess .. and the word religion takes the reader to an article which states, amongst other things:

"At a time when anthropology preferred to categorise belief systems, Aboriginal religion was assigned to a category designated as 'totemism' ... Aborigial totemism .. has a truly religious aspect, linking the physical world and its inhabitants with a transcendental dimension of reality ..

..The totemic ancestors, as conceived by Aboriginal people, are beings of great power who once travelled over the earth performing wonderful deeds of creation, and who now lie quiescent in focal points of the landscape ... Totemic ancestors are often referred to in Aboriginal English as Dreamings .."

:To next tackle the suggestion List of Australian Aboriginal deities be renamed:
v. The List of Australian Aboriginal deities is a useful list of articles for this project to work through (even if poorly named), and the brief descriptions are useful (even if currently inappropriate) .. but, yes, it's present name badly misrepresents Australian Aboriginal peoples and Australian Aboriginal beliefs .. so it SHOULD be renamed!
vi. Perhaps we could initially rename and transform the current List of Australian Aboriginal deities into a kind of Wikiproject Indigenous Australian's assessment/work list, entitled something like "Australian Aboriginal mythological beings - unauthenticated articles without context" ... then seeing this Wikiproject have as one of it's goals "creating, expanding, authenticating, and contextualising articles identifying Australian Aboriginal mythological beings" (using Wikipedia verification principles, supported by a template infobox?).
vii. Once a preagreed 'threshold' level of coverage adequately identifying and describing some of the most notable mythological beings from a sampling (representative)across the Australian continent (>400 Aboriginal groups) is reached .. (eg, very crudely, say threshold sampling aminimum of 2 groups for each for east, north-east, north, north-west, west, south-west, south, south-east, and centre - totalling 18 groups) .. THEN we might start new category entitled something like Australian Aboriginal mythological beings (or better namee/s?), with either locations, key geographical features, or source language/s as sub-categories?!!
Hope this is thoughtful and useful?! Bruceanthro (talk) 16:37, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Thank you. Yes, Indigenous Australians definitely do not have the concept of a deity. In fact they would find it offensive. And non-European academics would find it intellectually offensive. The Dreaming treats of ancestral spirits, many of which might be honoured; others not. The spiritualities of the Indigenous nations are quite unlike any other religions. They require serious treatment, in their own context, as does any other article.--Gazzster (talk) 08:28, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Using Human Relations Area Files coding to structure this project?

I guess this is for Riana (talk) and any one else who may be thinking of participating in this project!!

Should this project aim for as comprehensive, complete coverage of the subject, for the indigenous peoples of Australia as a whole, and/or for each of the indigenous Australian groups across Australia as possible..

....then perhaps the dimensions for comparison and contrast of different cultures around the world .. with which Murdock's Ethnographic Atlas (1967) plus his Atlas of World Cultures (1981) illustrate; upon which the Human Relations Area Files and the Standard cross-cultural sample are founded .. may provide a useful, previously trialled, currently used 'schema' for this project to arrange it's activities?

Articles, tasks, requests and categories could, for instance (starting to work systematically through the code), aim to prioritise and cover a selection (ultimately all) of the following, for the whole of Australia, and each Australain Aborignal group (just to name a few:

  • Human Biology
  • Behaviour and Personality
  • Demography
  • History and Culture Change
  • Culture
  • Language
  • Communication
  • Records
  • Food Quest
  • Animal Husbandry
  • Agriculture
  • Food Processing
  • Food Consumption
  • Drink, Drugs
  • Leather, Textiles, and Fabrics
  • Clothing
  • Adornment
  • Exploitative Activities
  • Structures
  • Settlements
  • Energy and Power
  • Tools
  • Property
  • Exchange
  • Marketing
  • Finance
  • Labor
  • Travel and Transporation
  • Fine Arts
  • Recreation
  • Entertainment
  • Individuation and Mobility
  • Social Stratification
  • Interpersonal Relations
  • Marriage
  • Kinship
  • Kin Groups
  • Community
  • Territorial Organization
  • Politics
  • Law
  • Offenses and Sanctions
  • War
  • Social Problems
  • etc etc etc

Articles and categorisations expanding and elaborating the above will be comprehensive, complete, systematic .. and useful for doing comparisons with all those groups, peoples and cultures documented over many decades on Human Relations Area Files and the Standard cross-cultural sample..

What do you think .. way too ambitious and way of beam?!! Bruceanthro (talk) 15:47, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] WP Australia template

It would be useful if the {{WP Australia}} template had the ability to identify articles relevant to this WikiProject. I understand we would need to request this at Template talk:WP Australia. Probably easiest to use "Indigenous=yes". Comments? Paul foord (talk) 13:49, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm glad someone is having a look at this .. and yes please Paul foord (talk)request the "Indigenous=yes" option on Template talk:WP Australia .. unless anyone has any objection/better idea!? Bruceanthro (talk) 16:16, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Done at Template_talk:WP_Australia#Request_for_.27Indigenous.3Dyes.27_to_be_added_to_template Paul foord (talk) 14:54, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Completed, thank you User:Longhair Paul foord (talk) 14:37, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] one for GA

While reviewing the Aust B class articles 2004 Palm Island death in custody looks almost ready to go to GA, basically needs a copy edit and refs/el made consistent. Gnangarra 12:46, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Hi all, it would be fantastic if this project could put a little work into this article to bring it up to GA!!! I suggest discussion as to how to do so continue at Talk:2004 Palm Island death in custody#B class review. Cheers, WikiTownsvillian 13:04, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Some category difficulties

Keeping Category:Indigenous Australians for individuals works well, but there are a number of things that don't readily fit anywhere. the various massacres fit in Category:History of Indigenous Australians, some such as Northern Territory National Emergency Response, Aborigines in White Australia, Little Children are Sacred, Media portrayals of Indigenous Australians & Stolen generations maybe belong in different categories, ideas? Paul foord (talk) 12:55, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Not sure if you're thinking/looking for a catch all category for all of the above?! If so, for all indigneous Australian issues that apply across the whole of Australia, perhaps we could have Category:Pan-Australian Indigenous Issues, distinguishing these larger, across Australia issues from individuals, and/or more locally specific &/or otherwise locatable articles?! Bruceanthro (talk) 16:49, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
Such a Pan-australian indigenous issues category, could, of course have:
  • state based subcategories .. such as Northern Territory indigenous issues (for Northern Territitory intervention), Queensland indigenous issues etc .., plus
  • theme based subcategories covering issues such as 'media issues' (for articles on the way media covers Aboriginal peoples), 'fidicuiary issues' (for articles about Stolen generations, and Stolen wages etc) 'heritage issues' (for articles about protection/destruction of indigenous Australian heritage etc).
I think I'd find such an 'issues' scheme useful .. what do you think?! Bruceanthro (talk) 00:36, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Consistent nomenclature for articles on Indig. peoples?

Having just looked at Category:Indigenous peoples of Australia again ... I note:

  1. sometimes groups of Indigneous peoples are named without the term "people" (eg Wangan, Airiman, & Irukandji);
  2. sometimes they are named with the term "people" (eg Wangal people, Arrernte people, Kurrama people) and
  3. other times a range of other terms are used including, for example, Martu (Indigenous Australian) & Jukun people (Australia), & Beeliar (tribe)

Might I suggest this Indigneous peoples of Australia project aim for, encourage and promote a single, consistent nomenclature?! Perhaps all Indigenous peoples of Australia could, as far as practicable, be labelled "people", identifying them as 'peoples'?!! Bruceanthro (talk) 17:37, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Consistency sounds like a worthwhile objective. FWIW, this list http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_indigenous_peoples has links* to an occasional group of Indigenous people worldwide who have the "people" tags, eg Somali people or Surma people but it appears this is to differentiate them from other uses of those words- Somali and Surma both being disambiguation pages. Not sure if we'll have the same issues here but, if so, at least renaming "(tribe)" etc with "people" sounds logical.
*(The list itself has only the group name, but the links include the "people" bit) WotherspoonSmith (talk) 18:26, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
Yep!! Just now looked at List of Indigenous Australian group names, and my very first sample from that list ie Guugu Yimithirr .. takes me/us to a disambiguation page for Guugu Yimithirr people and Guugu Yimithirr language.
It would seem that a 'people' nomenclature that favours identifying named indigenous Australian groups of people as 'people' - not only lets the reader know, immediately, that each such article is about a people .. it also disambiguates!!
I'm not sure if we could/should put together and send a single large list of indigenous Australia group names currently unidentified as 'peoples' to WP:RM .. then make the move/s renaming as 'people/s'?! Bruceanthro (talk) 00:18, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
My preference would be to keep it simple - I expect most searchers would be looking for an article on the "nn people", so leave off "people" unless required for disambiguation, add language to the language article (linked from the group article). One nn search gets to the people article and one click from there the language article and if they want to get to the language directly then nn language. Is there a people info box? There is one for languages that I have seen. The Guugu Yimithirr disambiguation is a case of a good idea misapplied.
May have already been discussed at Wikipedia:WikiProject Ethnic groups & Wikipedia:WikiProject Languages Paul foord (talk) 00:57, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
I don't think the people should take precedence over the language. In some cases the language is more famous than its speakers are. Dyirbal for example currently redirects to Dyirbal language; we don't even have an article on the people.
The infobox for peoples is Template:Infobox Ethnic group. --Ptcamn (talk) 04:50, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Paul foord appears to give good advice suggesting we favour the simplest nomenclature that also best matches users' likely search habits/terms.

Unlike Paul however, I do not think the use of a single, or pair of Aboriginal words on their own, without a descriptor, is necessarily simple.

I'll use a familiar example to illustrate my point: if we wished to create, write and edit an article on Australian people, the simplest ('recommended?') title for the article would be Australian .. however, dropping the descriptor "people" actually causes the title to loose it's sense.. we find ourselves asking "Australian .. what?", and who would search for an article on Australian people by typing in the word Australian.

It is not simpler, in fact, to use the word "Australian" and drop the descriptor 'people' .. For those familiar with the term 'Australian' .. such a naming practice does not make things easier or simpler .. but, rather, makes things more ambigious!!

Just so with the Aboriginal/indigenous words used to label groups of indigneous Australian people .. Dropping the descriptor "people" does not make things easier or simpler ..it's just more ambigious!

I trialled with the Aboriginal word Arrente. I pressed "go" and discovered the creators of this article did, in fact, find the word/term ambigious .. as it can refer to a people, a langauge and/or an area!! I pressed "search" .. and, yes, now all the Arrente articles are displayed in front of me, listing Arrernte language, Arrernte people, Arrernte (area), &, in addition Arrernte Council. The most ambigious, least useful title in the search list was Arrente - which only leads to a disambiguation page anyway!

In absence of some clear and precise understanding and knowledge of the meaning/s and sense of the Aboriginal words often used to label Aboriginal groups .. it may in fact be the use of descriptors like "people", "langauge", "area", "community" etc others make things simpler and easier for users/searchers?!! It is on these grounds that I'd continue to recommend renaming articles that have indigenous Australian titles, and are in fact about indigenous Australian groups -- attaching the descriptor "people" to those titles?!! Bruceanthro (talk) 14:35, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

However 3 pages for each people and their language needs to be avoided. (BTW the Arrernte series of articles are not in good shape with a number of micro-stubs, with a mix of ppl & lang foci - the language and the main Arrernte Council articles are the best). Paul foord (talk) 08:47, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
Re Arrernte, I just expanded it to illustrate my point only to have someone revert it as unsourced (along with deleting parts of other articles on my watchlist). Someone else has tagged it to merge to Arrernte people. :-) Paul foord (talk) 10:43, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
The smart way to do it would have been to have Arrernte people moved to Arrernte and then expand that. --Ptcamn (talk) 10:52, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
Sorry, I was in a hurray. Probably time for a break. Paul foord (talk) 11:29, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
OK ...I see the value of keeping single Aboriginal words (such as Arrernte) .. in the form of a expanded disambiguation article giving a general narrative and pics etc guiding users/readers through all the related uses/dimensions of the word Arrernte!!
As an aside, I note it is just as well (for our nomenclature purposes) that people working on the Arrernte language/s decided to change the spelling from Aranda .. as the currently proposed 'simple' nomenclature could have collapsed under the weight of that disambiguation page!.
Seeing the value of a disambiguation article .. I decided to run a commensurability test, checking to see if disparate "Arrernte" articles do smoothly, neatly and consistently merge into a single article!
Unfortunately, on closer inspection the current sample Arrernte page (still under construction) collapses on the complex amiguity of the word Arrernte!
Re: people and language - the Arrente people (ie people who identify as, and are socially recognised as Arrente) ARE NOT the same as the group of people who may speak Arrente language (ie a French linguist who speaks Arrernte - a Arrernte speaker - is NOT Arrernte; also an Arrernte person who does not speak Arrente (language).. is still Arrente (people))
Re: people and area - the Arrente people ARE NOT the same group of people as those who live or lived in the Central Australian area around Alice springs .. (ie a possible majority of people now living in the area are not Arrente people; also a possible majority of Arrente people do not live in the area, but are still Arrente)
I briefly tried using the term 'ancestors' to mediate ie I tried brief rewrite amending intro to say Arrente people are those people whose 'ancestors' lived in the Central Australia area and spoke Arrente langauges ... but it is still a bit clumsy and comes unstuck, loosing it's sense a little.
In conclusion .. perhaps each Aboriginal word/label for an Aboriginal group should NOT be moved or merged into an same named article with 'people' as a descriptor (eg Arrente people) .. but instead kept as an overview, disambiguation article ... linking to seperate articles that do use descriptors such as people', 'language', 'area' etc ... such that we the exisitng Arrernte people & Arrernte language would be retained (and upgraded)?!! Bruceanthro (talk) 17:11, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Article ratings

I have done a quick first run for the Project and generally trust my judgment, I just had a glance at the bot reports, and there are some over-under ratings for both class & importance, not a lot though IMO. Where there is substantial disagreement on a rerating then some discussion may be needed. Feel free to adjust. Still more to do! Paul foord (talk) 01:48, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Templates moved to tab

The template links may need to be updated, but there are enough templates to justify the move. Sorry about the colour changes Paul foord (talk) 08:29, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Template:Infobox Australian Place

Is there anything particular that would enhance Template:Infobox Australian Place for use in this Project? We would need to discuss with that project. Paul foord (talk) 12:40, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

All this work happening around this project is great Paul! Perhaps, if we are to use Template:Infobox Australian Place .. perhaps it might be possible (?) to see new fields included .. ones such as Site: (Yes/No); Indigenous name (for places); Tindale Name or AIATSIS names: (for regions)??
Bruceanthro (talk) 17:46, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Indigenous peoples of mainland Australia

An old discussion, but ... There has been an substantial earlier discussion about having an 'Aboriginal Australians' article to stand alongside Torres Strait Islanders and Tasmanian Aborigines, under the Indigenous Australians article. Strong arguments were made against an 'Aboriginal Australians' article. Some general article on the 'Indigenous peoples of mainland Australia' (or some such title) would be useful. Paul foord (talk) 11:54, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Having not been party to the earlier discussion .. I must say that it does appear most odd, and it is most idiosyncratic, that a clearly identifiable class of Australian people:
  1. identified within the Australian constitution as Aborigines
  2. counted by the Australian Bureau of Statistics within the Australian census as Aborigines
  3. identified and defined within Australian court law, (including the High Court of Australia) as Aborigines
  4. identified and defined within numerous statutes and regulations as Aborigines
.. are not able (can not find support?) for a Wikipedia article specifically about them identifying them as a legally defined class of people that in fact exist as Australian Aborigines within Australian law?

Perhaps I/we can start up an article on Australian Aborigines that distinguishes itself from the more general Indigenous Australians article .. by instead focusing on the the origins, changing nature of laws over a century, defining (and creating?) Australian Aboriginal people as a definite, existing class of people ?!! Bruceanthro (talk) 13:06, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Two new articles

Just created Torres Strait Islands Regional Council and Northern Peninsula Area Regional Council, about two new entities replacing a heap of DOGIT areas in Far North Queensland. My understanding of the issue is quite technical and not really cultural (as the current content probably shows :)), but there is scope within both of those to document the community councils they replaced and how they came about, and make them into interesting articles. I thought this project was probably the best place to flag them for the sort of attention they need. cheers Orderinchaos 01:42, 31 March 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Djabugay people

Still in the process of expanding this article .. but noted the currently recommended ethnic people's template did not seem well suited to the purpose .. so have adjusted the generic infobox to create a potentially more suritable/useful Indigenous Australian people's infobox?!!

Please feel welcome to test run this infobox on other xxxx Aboriginal peoples articles .. then, perhaps, someone out there might be able to advise/ assist make something like this an Indigenous Australian people infobox to be used/recommended for all such articles?? Bruceanthro (talk) 05:17, 15 May 2008 (UTC)