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[edit] Proposal to not delete talk pages for all indef users

See also: Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive137#Talk pages for indef users and WT:CSD#Proposal for U4

Original proposal: In a nutshell, I think we should clarify the issue of when to delete or not delete talk pages for indef. blocked users. I think there are situations where we do and should delete them, such as for vandals or trolls who might use them as "trophy" pages (or some other situation where WP:DENY would be a fair argument), but there are times when the talk page should simply be blanked and with the history preserved. I'm not sure how many people agree on this thinking, but I'm hoping we can find a criteria for what to delete and what not to delete that will be acceptable and functional. Thoughts on how we could word this? -- Ned Scott 05:08, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Pages belonging to banned users, sock puppets and puppeteers, and long-term contributors should not be deleted. (I suggest redirecting these to their user page, where the appropriate block templates and explanation resides.)
For other indefinitely blocked users, I don't see any value in keeping the pages beyond a month or so. User pages serve to help collaboration between editors; blocked users are no longer editors. Besides serving no purpose, they can be harmful as explained by Wikipedia:Deny recognition. —{admin} Pathoschild 05:23:26, 07 April 2008 (UTC)
The way I've always done it, and the way I propose to continue doing it, is deleting those pages in CAT:TEMP after 30 days of inactivity on the page. Pages of sockpuppeteers and sockpuppets should be kept, and are regularly being removed from the category to avoid accidental deletion. Keeping pages of banned users also seems acceptable. For all other run-of-the-mill indefinately blocked users, there is no reason to keep the pages. If, by chance, the user comes back more than 30 days after being blocked, requests unblock, and is granted unblock, we can restore the page. So simple. - Rjd0060 (talk) 18:09, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
I fully agree with Pathoschild. Simply because some random troll came along and vandalized, was warned for it, and then was indefinitely blocked does not mean that they are entitled to eternal wiki-fame. If there is no further use for the user and talk pages, there is no reason to keep them around. --MZMcBride (talk) 18:43, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
The point being made (I think) is that more than just that type of page is being deleted. I am sure examples can be found of banned users, sock puppets and sock puppeteers and long-term contributors, where the talk pages have been deleted. That is what this proposal is trying to avoid, though the source of the problem seems to be either excessively broad use of the indefblocked template, or inadequate review at the end of the 30-day process. Ned, is this what you are saying, or am I misunderstanding your point? Carcharoth (talk) 21:58, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
If that is the issue then procedure needs to be clarified with the administrators that are deleting the pages that should not be deleted. All of this other stuff isn't going to help them understand what they are doing wrong. Please, if we have examples, lets talk to those admins. - Rjd0060 (talk) 22:43, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
There's no guidance on when not to delete except for sockpuppet pages, so those admins are likely most of the ones who clear out the temp user category.
(to Carcharoth) Yeah, that's pretty much my point. I'm fine with deleting pages for random vandals. I understand and agree with the idea that we shouldn't be giving anyone some kind of "eternal wiki-fame", as MZM put it. Although for most vandals they're not even used as that, and more than likely they only care if the messages are visible (Thus page blanking is normally just as effective) Regardless of that, even deleting those pages, they're not the ones I'm concerned about.
Talk pages we shouldn't be deleting include ones with a decent amount of history, lots of comments and discussions from other users, talk pages that are needed to properly understand why a block was made (as in, a somewhat complex issue that can't be fully summarized in a block message), or talk pages from users who are indef blocked, but aren't likely to use their talk page as a trophy page. There's a lot of users out there that, for some unfortunate reason, are unable to work with the community at large, and are no longer able to edit Wikipedia.
There's no organizational benefit to deleting these pages. We have a massive amount of IP talk pages and inactive user talk pages, and having them around doesn't really effect other areas of Wikipedia. All we pretty much have is that we don't want to give them a trophy page (which, again, isn't likely what most will even consider. The vandalism itself, which is almost always accessible in an article's history, is what most vandals care about, but still not my main point.)
Plus there's the accessibility for all editors, not just admins, the ability to review blocks and the events surrounding them, which has always been important.
tl;dr- we're all pretty much on the same page about the random vandal, it's other, more complex situations that are the issue here. -- Ned Scott 01:43, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
In conjunction with this and in particular due to my concern that some users who aren't even blocked are having their pages deleted due to improper tagging, I've raised the question at Template talk:Temporary userpage of whether we need that particular template. My concern though is that users may simply add the category if we don't address this part of the issue (BTW why isn't the category "CAT:Indef blocked users"? - this whole thing has so many avenues for misunderstanding the purpose). Educating admins is not a particularly good solution in my mind. There are many hundreds of admins and many scores of deletion categories. There are many admins who just check in somewhere when there is a backlog and start clearing it out, only realizing the standards have changed if someone screams about it or who really don't understand the criterion (e.g. A7). And the problem with Cats is you'll only notice deletions if you're there when it happens because once deleted they no longer show up in the cat, there's no "Cat: things that used to be in Cat X but have been deleted". If we're going to continue with this, we should get a bot to list them to Projectspace page, as with WP:Copyright problems, so we can see what others are doing.--Doug.(talk • contribs) 15:32, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
"it's other, more complex situations that are the issue here." --- Well, I personally don't think we have an issue. - Rjd0060 (talk) 17:19, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
  • This (or the discussions that led us here) is referred to several places as an RFC, but there doesn't actually appear to be an RFC, did Ned intend for this to be an RFC?--Doug.(talk • contribs) 17:35, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
  • I was holding off on tagging it with the RFC template until it seemed like a good spot to have the discussion (since my first try at WT:CSD was a bit of a miss). I'll add the tag now. -- Ned Scott 06:25, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Interesting proposal. I've generally taken quite a liberal stance towards deletion of blocked users' talk pages, and, by-and-large, delete the talk page of indefinitely blocked editors after a reasonable period, even if they were previously established. I do make exceptions for pages that are required for evidence (e.g., I recently decategorised a user talk page from CAT:TEMP, because the admission of that editor that s/he was a sock puppet was made on that page), and for editors who are well-established (4+ months?). Perhaps this is not the best stance to take, but to be honest, what good is there in having a blocked user keep their talk page? I do think, however, that in future, I'll stick closer to Pathos' principles; I may be a little to eager to delete the talk page of indef. users :) Anthøny 20:55, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
  • While users generally manage their own talk pages, it's been established that a user still doesn't completely own their own talk page. Often those talk pages are composed of several comments and discussions made by many different users, and deleting the talk pages often makes a big hole in that talk history. Very often we'll have users who are now indef blocked, but were once working well with other users, and had useful conversations. I can think of a few myself, such as User:Jack Merridew (though his block is sockpuppet related, so it would not be "eligible" for the temp page deletion category).
  • Having the talk pages also allows non-administrators the ability to review these past events, something that has been very important to the community. Admin tools are handed out based on certain aspects of trust, not authorization. I've been asked a few times by indef blocked users to help them out, bringing their situation to the attention of others for discussion, and most of those users have gotten unblocked as a result. The developers tell us to not rely on the ability to undelete pages, as they have the ability to purge the deleted database at any time, and without warning.
  • Going through and deleting these pages also wastes time, granted if someone wants to spend their time doing so, then they have every right to spend it that way. However, there's hardly any value in doing so. Most "trophy" talk pages are easily identifiable, and should be deleted, but a large number of blocked users aren't using their talk pages in any such way. If anything it's a little stupid to think that most people would use the talk page as a trophy page, as any troll or vandal is going to preform their "trophy actions" on other pages, where the history will be preserved. Blanking the talk pages removes them from search results, but still allows the contents to be viewed by experienced editors. It really doesn't make a lot of sense to push for deletion of all these pages.
  • The idea that we have to "clean out" talk pages is a false dilemma. We have tons of IP talk pages and abandoned account talk pages that would never quality for deletion in this way, probably far more than there are indef blocked user talk pages. The way Wikipedia works means that you don't have to deal with these pages if you don't want to. They don't "get in the way" by existing.
  • Then there's the problem with the consensus regarding this action in the first place. The discussions that set up the category and practice were very lacking in any real community input, and there never was any proposal to actually approve or reject, just an un-tagged (as in, policy/guideline/essay/etc) category page with some vague instructions. -- Ned Scott 01:49, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
  • And we need a policy why? You seem to be confusing Wikipedia with a bureaucracy. We don't come up with rules for the sake of having a rule. Very rarely, if ever, are policies created as a way to change how something is done. As it should be, since policies are the written form of generally accepted standards. If you want to bring CAT:TEMP to more light so more than a handful of admins and a bot work on it, by all means do so, but trying to create a policy to tell people "No, the old way was wrong, do things this way instead" is just not the way we do things. For a better explanation of why pointless policies that try to force new processes are almost always bad, ask Kim Bruning Mr.Z-man 02:27, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
  • I haven't proposed any new policy or wording to an existing one. So far I've only asked for discussion on the matter. The "old way" was never established, it never had community consensus. The majority of Wikipedians, even admins, don't know that this is normal practice. If I come in and say "don't do this" and have good reason, and others agree with those reasons, then I don't need a formal policy or anything, because I would have established what had consensus. There's nothing overly bureaucratic about that at all, and I'm pretty sure that it's how we normally do things here.
  • One more thing, I honestly don't understand why you feel the need to be so combative in your responses to me, Mr.Z. So far the discussions on this matter have been fairly calm and objective, and I would appreciate it if we could stay on that path. -- Ned Scott 04:55, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Although I had a very strong opinion about {{temporary userpage}} when this started, and a mild concern that the cat is misnamed as I mentioned above, I was basically neutral on the deletion of the talk pages of users who are indefinitely blocked. However, I think Ned has strong arguments. I've stated to at least one editor who asked that in appropriate cases I would delete userpages but not user talk pages based on the indef block alone, in large part due to the absence of clear policy - absent such a policy I see no good reason to delete talk pages and I haven't seen any good arguments for general deletion. The rare cases where the user talk page is itself problematic should be handled via MfD (or occasionally PROD) on a case by case basis. Deleting the talk page of every indef blocked user who is not known to be a sock is pointless as far as I can tell and as Ned notes, deprives non-admins from viewing the talk page history. --Doug.(talk • contribs) 03:59, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

  • Note: Although not directly affecting this discussion, the TFD of {{temporary userpage}} has closed as delete.--Doug.(talk • contribs) 17:10, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

A possible idea to try out is to not tag pages for CAT:TEMP by default when using the normal tags. It could still be an option, but would require some input/evaluation form the tagging admin. Obvious problem pages could still be dealt with without "needless bureaucracy". -- Ned Scott 06:52, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

This idea has been discussed recently, but didn't find wide appeal. The category applies to the vast majority of correctly tagged pages. It's better to explicitly set historical pages as historical, preferably with a brief explanation of why they're historical (see an example rationale). —{admin} Pathoschild 07:27:52, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Deleting talk pages like this doesn't have wide appeal either. -- Ned Scott 02:09, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
I've seen pretty wide appeal for the practice. In this discussion alone, 5 (71%) of those who expressed a preference are in favour (out of 7). Even one of those who preferred not to delete agreed that "If their talk page doesn't provide any useful information there is no point to restoring it". —{admin} Pathoschild 04:10:53, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
What has wide appeal is removing trophy pages. Others don't seem to care, and consider it some kind of house keeping, which is a really weak rationale. So, no, there is nothing that could even be considered a consensus for this practice. Most other admins simply assumed it was discussed first, and don't even know how the practice came about. However, there are some very good arguments for reducing bureaucracy for when we do need to delete indef blocked user pages, and what I've proposed here is far more than reasonable. -- Ned Scott 05:43, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

I probably need to re-prod ANI and some template talk pages. Lately the RFC template doesn't seem to be pulling in a lot of people (noticed this in a few RfCs). -- Ned Scott 04:59, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Either that, or everyone is leaving (ahem!). Need to get some sleep. :-) Carcharoth (talk) 00:03, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
Ha, no kidding. It's hard to complete for attention with these kinds of "boring" issues :) -- Ned Scott 05:43, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Prodding

I haven't been very focused on this proposal, but I still believe it's a very good idea, and that we need to stop deleting user pages simply because they are for banned users. I'll try to start another RfC to get some more involvement, as this talk page turned out to be one of the more neglected venues around. -- Ned Scott 06:58, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Please don't tag spammers' talk pages as temporary

We use the information on a spammer's talk page to track a spammer across multiple IPs and sock accounts. This includes live links to the spam domains as well as specialized templates such as {{LinkSummary}}, {{IPSummary}} and {{UserSummary}}. Such information is vital for keeping track of spam and prioritizing which spammers to concentrate on. The hard-core spammers -- those that go through multiple warnings and then get blocked -- will almost always come back with a new IP or user name and with more domains to spam. If we don't know that they've spammed us over and over again with different accounts, we won't prioritize them for things like increased monitoring, bot-tracking and domain blacklisting. We'll just think we've got some noob that doesn't know our rules, give him a {{uw-spam1}} and move on. The fact that MediaWiki search doesn't see deleted talk pages doesn't help matters, either.

Code such as {{{category|[[Category:Temporary Wikipedian userpages|{{PAGENAME}}]]}}} embedded in our block templates places the associated talk pages into the temporary user page category, setting them up to be deleted a few weeks later. As someone very involved with tracking and removing spam, I ask that spammer talk pages not be tagged as temporary and I strongly recommend not using code like this in our spam-related templates.

As for the idea that since admins can always see deleted versions of these pages so other editors don't need to: I think everyone should have access to spammer talk pages. This isn't some ideological issue about admins vs. other editors -- it's simply a practical matter. The majority of the people that help with spam warning and removal are not admins. Overall our 1000+ active admins are just a small part of perhaps 10,000 active, regular editors working hard to keep our 2 million articles reliable and useful in the face of over 100 edits/minute. A year ago, we were were averaging >8000 links added per day and I'm sure it's gone up since then.
--A. B. (talk • contribs) 14:35, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

P.S. Please report chronic spammers at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Spam and someone will follow up for more investigating. Also we can always use more help there -- tracking this stuff down is interesting work for folks with an investigatory or researchy bent. --A. B. (talk • contribs) 14:35, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Thanks. I wondered how it got added to {{uw-spamublock}}, and it clearly does not belong there. I'm going to remove it. --MCB (talk) 19:44, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Default "stub" and "template generator"

It may be a good idea to create a default stub and a bot to insert it on all users. This esentially would cause a script that is currently running every time a user accesses an uncreated userpage to be replaced with a script that would run once for each user. While it sounds like the same thing, it would make a much friendlier environment for the users, as you could put up a basic template there that would be editable.

Additionally, a template engine for generating userpages without fuss would also be nice. I'm not quite up to stuff on the Wiki layout yet, so I would not be the best person to create one, but having one could give new users a good tutorial of more advanced Wiki features. I know I could use one and I've been a periodic commenter for years. --RuediiX (talk) 10:59, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Screen shot

I have a screen shot of User:Example's page. Could it be used on the page? WikiZorro 15:25, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Here It is
Here It is

[edit] My userpage

I've reported User:Tiptoety following the locking of my userpage. [1] and [2] Lugnuts (talk) 19:23, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] UI Spoofing again

I'm not going to re-hash the "freedom to shout Fire in a crowded theatre" argument. Rather than deleting the "offending" message, a better way to defuse this might be for an outside editor to change its background, colour or font. Personally I think that the "it's my userspace" argument becomes rather weak if the user insists that their message must be easily confusable with a legitimate system message. Say what you like, just not in a box that looks official. SHEFFIELDSTEELTALK 19:24, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't particularly like it but I don't see a big problem with it. It doesn't cause irreversible damage--if anything wastes a few seconds. But, let's just make it clear if it's okay or not so we don't get really silly drama over it. gren グレン 19:44, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
This seems like a pretty appropriate response:
“ [five edit conflicts and seven cigarettes later]This is an mind-numbingly stupid discussion. Everybody remembers my old userpage, and nobody gave a fuck about it until I ran for arbcom. Of course, it was summer, I was busting my ass for this site, editing around the clock, and most people (myself included) felt like I was doing something useful, so nobody cared. These days I find it more interesting to stare at the ceiling or out the window. Editing this site has clearly lost all of its recreational value for me. I don't think I'm alone in my sentiment. And it gets worse, every time some a critical mass of limp-dicked busybodies assembles to write their life-saving new rules, not because there is any real problem to be addressed, oh no, but because they have a biological need something for something easier to enforce. You're already in their crosshairs, they've just been fabricating a good enough reason to fire. To anybody reading this, if you feel like I'm describing you, please unplug your computer, box it up and take it back to Wal-Mart. You'll thank yourself for it and I will too. ”

—Freakofnurture, 05:25, Feb. 14, 2007 (UTC)
Seems pretty apt in this case, too --Dragon695 (talk) 22:42, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Do they serve a purpose other than to humiliate someone or make them feel like an idiot? It's not like a practical joke that you play in person and can see the reaction so what purpose does it serve? LegoTech·(t)·(c) 05:09, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

How can you be humiliated when no one in the world knows you clicked on it and a simple click of the back button brings you back?--Cube lurker (talk) 10:43, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Personal navbox

Are users allowed to have personal navboxes on their userpages or is it inappropriate? T.Neo (talk contribs review me ) 10:04, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

That's fine, just name the navbox in the userspace as well. For example, {{User talk:Ned Scott/archive}}. -- Ned Scott 07:00, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] A couple of articles-: Sir William the Templar and the Black Madonna at New Norcia

The previously uploaded short article was about Sir William Ferrers, the 5th Earl of Derby, Lord Tutbury. I was priviledged in 2004 in correctly identifying his effigy which is located in the small Gate Church of Our Lady of Merevale in Staffordshire. The effigy has been incorrectly assigned to a descendent and does not mention the fact that Sir William was a Crusading Knight Templar who actually died while supporting King Richard Lion Heart's military operations leading to the siege of Acre in Palestine in ca. 1195. The effigy is remarkably similar to the one of his coeval Templar-companion, Sir Geoffrey de Mandeville, located at the Temple Court in London. For those who wish to look at photographs and to read more about this amazing discovery, please go to http://wwwgensferreria.blogspot.com or contact me by e-mail on gensferreria@bigpond.com

To-day I wish to relate another interesting discovery I made in 2007 when visiting the Benedectine Abbey/Monastery located at 120 KM from Perth, Western Australia, called New Norcia. Since discovering the effigy of Sir William in Staffordshire, I seem to have become very receptive to Templar's voices and knowledge. At New Norcia which has been founded by spanish benedectine monks in the nineteenth century, i.e., Father Ildefonso Salvado, who was actually elevated to the dignity of a Bishop, one can witness the presence of several art works of a not-diminutive size, dedicated to the tradition of the Black Madonna. There are in fact striking presences of symbols which relate the art works at New Norcia to more primitive works in France and at Montserrat north of Barcelona, on the Costa Brava. Again I am going to upload a series of photos of these art works in the above mentioned blog. Please contact me by e-mail if interested. --Ferrerix (talk) 05:06, 12 June 2008 (UTC) signed-: Ferrerix

[edit] Question

To put personal pictures (which is allowed) seems to be some kind of personal blog (which is not allowed) to me. Bennylin (talk) 06:36, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

It's a fine line. A few pictures of an editor is normally okay. It's nice to see who's behind the name, and gives you a little more info about who they are. This helps the sense of community, lifts moral, as well as reminding us that there are real people behind these names. Stuff like that. It's just a matter of how much they do it, and if they're doing any actual work at the same time. -- Ned Scott 23:19, 13 June 2008 (UTC)