Talk:C. S. Lewis

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[edit] Criticism

I removed the criticism section from the article. I have no POV one way or the other on Lewis, it just seemed that the criticism section was thrown in to "balance" the article. It started by claiming that his Narnia works had been widely criticized but provided no citation to prove this. It then list a few very specific complaints on Lewis from some minor literary individuals. I have no problem, of course, with some one restoring the section if they can show that the criticism had a major impact on his work or its legacy in the public eye, because from what I gathered from the section it did neither. The section should also be properly sourced. I removed it rather than just make this post because I think it best to err on the side of caution. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 129.252.49.152 (talk) 05:15, 26 February 2007 (UTC).

The section was more extensive and contained specific referenced criticisms, but this was moved to the Chronicles of Narnia article (which is why readers are directed there for further information). I've replaced the section, and added a reference. I think more than one reference would be untidy looking, but they are available in the Narnia article if anyone disagrees. Martin 00:01, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

I liked the rewrite of the criticism page much better than the original. I removed a little of the rewrite, specifficaly the part that referred to criticism of his Christian apologetics. I removed it simply because the figures quoted are extremely minor figures whose whole career is based around criticism of that sort. If anyone can come up with a better known writer or religious figure for a criticism, that would be great. I will be looking myself. `129.252.205.245 01:48, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

I fail to see the logic of this. Beversluis is a serious philosopher and his criticisms are well argued. Joshi is more of a popular writer but he is at least as serious on the topic as Lewis, and if someones "whole career is based around criticism of that sort" then perhaps they actually know what they are on about. In any case, the link to the Trilemma page leads to a more detailed examination of the issues. Rbreen 14:47, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

New gripe: the section that starts with, "However, Lewis himself combats against this..." [which seems like poor grammar] and ends with, "...a system which must be heeded." seems to be original opinions of someone trying to criticize the criticism in situ. (Phrases like "fails to realize," "nonetheless," and "of course" mark it as such.) I propose that it be removed. 98.194.89.153 (talk) 03:10, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Betjeman

The bad feeling between CS Lewis and the then undergraduate John Betjeman is well known, and I was interested to see Lewis's dislike of English flippancy mentioned in the article, because this was a characteristic he found most irritating in Betjeman. Betjeman responded in kind, referring in one of his poems to "St CS Lewis's church" and in another as follows:

"Objectively our Common Room/ Is like a small Athenian state -/ Except for Lewis: he's all right,/ But do you think he's quite first rate?"

It should be borne in mind that the author of the above stanza failed to get a degree, whereas Lewis got a double first. Millbanks 22:44, 3 August 2007 (UTC)Millbanks 08:19, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

It should be borne in mind that "a double first doesn't mean anything to Americans.Heqwm 04:17, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

No, and it probably doesn't mean much to Russians, Chinese or Canadians. Do we have to explain such things? For example, if I were writing an article on soccer and referred to an "own goal", would I need to explain that? Anyhow, writing about an Oxford academic, surely it is reasonable to expect some knowledge. In fact I queried Dan Snow's "double first", and for further enlightenment, please see the discussion there. Millbanks 23:03, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

I’ve just chanced on this. Lewis got a double first. Betjaman didn’t get a degree. Who’s the better writer? Have you read any of Lewis’s poetry? If you haven’t don’t bother. Apparently Lewis once threatened Betjaman with a broad sword he kept in his rooms. Now that’s an interesting image. Dave59 (talk) 00:05, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Lewis's poetry is spectacular. It's precisely because it was good (and not made of the nonsensical tripe that got noticed in Lewis's day--and today, come to think of it) that it didn't go very far. Pity. Anyway, who reads Betjeman anymore? To the Betjmemobile, Robin! Holy Crappy Verse, Betjeman!

And Lewis never owned a broadsword.

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Joy Gresham.jpg

Image:Joy Gresham.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 23:35, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Conversion - the road to Damascus or to Whipsnade ?

The article mentions Lewis's conversion following a trip to the zoo.

It's a locally believed 'myth' here in Leighton Buzzard, Bedfordshire where I live that he had a 'Damascus" style conversion during a motorbike ride from Oxford to the Whipsnade zoo, which lies between Leighton Buzzard and Dunstable - (it's more or less on Dunstable Downs). Is there any truth in this story ? Can it be verified, and does Tolkien have any involvement in it ?

18:47, 22 March 2008 (UTC)


Lewis himself mentions it in his biography, Surprised by Joy. He went for a ride with his brother, Warnie, and when he left, he says, he did not believe that Christ was the Son of God, and when he arrived, he did. Nothing quite like a Damascus road, smacked-on-your-face-blind, whither-persecutest-thou-me experience, really. Lewis had slowly come to be a theist by this point and he essentially tipped over the edge to Christianity. Tolkien's involvement comes most famously in a long chat he and Lewis (and Hugo Dyson, I believe) had one night at Oxford about myth and Christianity. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.163.0.43 (talk) 14:13, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Criticism is a bit one-sided

I'm not a C.S. Lewis expert, but I'd be surprised if there were no rebuttals by notable people to the criticisms listed. (and before anyone throws the {{Template:Sofixit}} at me, I wouldn't be the best person to fill this out)--CyberGhostface (talk) 14:43, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

In general it's not a good idea for criticism sections to include rebuttals. Because if you do, someone will insist on putting rebuttals to the rebuttals, and then rebuttals to the rebuttals to the rebuttals, and then the whole section becomes a debate. Some articles have really suffered from this syndrome. Yes it seems one-sided but as it's done consistently it's not as bad as the alternatives. DJ Clayworth (talk) 15:17, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
However now I think about it there is one paragraph I'm not sure about. Is Dan Barker really attacking Lewis, or is he attacking Christianity in general? If the latter, or if he is merely using Lewis as an example of the things he objects to, then he probably doesn't merit a mention here. If he singles out Lewis as being in some way worse then the other Christians he obviously disagrees with then he should stay. DJ Clayworth (talk) 15:22, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
A read a summary and it seems that Barker is just disagreeing with Lewis' views. That isn't really notable - any atheist will disagree with him. DJ Clayworth (talk) 15:30, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
I agree. I'll remove that part. As for the rest of the section, is there anyway (since its pretty short) it could be integrated into the main body or make it a "reception/response" section?--CyberGhostface (talk) 16:43, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
I also removed the part saying "So and so criticized Lewis in so and so" because there's nothing about what they were criticizing in the first place, just that criticism existed.--CyberGhostface (talk) 16:47, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
Since the remaining criticism was (surprise surprise) Pullman's I added it into the legacy his opinion. Should it be noted that he himself has admitted that his series is an anti-Christian parallel to Narnia?--CyberGhostface (talk) 02:55, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
I think that's discussed in significantly more detail in the Narnia article. DJ Clayworth (talk) 13:46, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Professorate not "honorary"

His position as professor at Cambridge shouldn't be listed as honorary, since it was not. It was a real academic position. dllu (talk) 10:51, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Absolutely right, and I've removed it. DJ Clayworth (talk) 13:37, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Birth Name

I added Lewis birthname to the page as it was not exisiting. —Preceding unsigned comment added by PeterDoss (talk • contribs) 07:10, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Apostrophes

Please don't edit war. The talk page is the right place to discuss edits, even about apostrophes.

My two cents here is that an apostrophe is placed after the s only when the non-posessive word already ends in an s (Dickens' stories, the masses' beliefs). Since children doesn't end in an s there is no problem with children's. DJ Clayworth (talk) 13:26, 5 June 2008 (UTC)