Wikipedia:Australian Wikipedians' notice board/Archive 30

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Contents

100 Featured articles

It appears we now have 100 Featured articles! It doesn't appear that we have had an article promoted recently, so perhaps the 100th article was as a result of a tagging exercise. For curiosity's sake only, I would be fascintaed to know what the 100th article was if anyone could tell me. Cheers, Mattinbgn\talk 22:39, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

It was Peregrine falcon. SatyrBot did tag it, but it did not FA tag it. A human later changed it to FA. So there could be other FAs that SatyrBot tagged but did not label as FAC. We only have 85 FAs to the best of my knowledge. The others are lists....at the risk of sounding snobbish...FAC is the ultimate test, after all, there is no 1a at FLC, and a large proportion of FLs violate MOS and don't have properly formatted refs! Blnguyen (bananabucket) 01:30, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
SatyrBot tags many articles with WPA because they are in categories such as "birds of Australia" or "hit records in Australia" and these should normally be reversed. Peregrine falcons are found in many countries, but WPA is the only country project which claims it. I would take the tag off it, but I'm also concerned that this would have to be done again next time SatyrBot runs. I've already reversed SatyrBot twice on RAI International.--Grahame (talk) 06:46, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
{{nobots|deny=SatyrBot}} does the trick. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 06:50, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
I've taken the WPA tag off Peregrine falcon and denied SatyrBot pending a case being put that it should apply.--Grahame (talk) 07:00, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
I agree that FAs are more signifcant than FLs, but I think that the Australia articles table should include the number of lists, as other project tables do. Also if an article is rated as a list it is shown at the quality log as being removed, when all that has happened is that it has been classified as a list (implying some chance of becoming a FL, if not FA).--Grahame (talk) 07:10, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
I think the FLs should have their own cats. At the risk of degrading FLS, both of my FLs took about 6 or so hours to rattle off, although creating all the articles was teh main problem. Now that all Australian Test cricketers have their own article, we could easily inflate the records by creating all sorts of stats lists and pasting them in from Cricinfo. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 07:13, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Seems we're back down to 99 again, then? dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 07:28, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes 99, unless you include Blnguyen's Vietnamese articles (Nguyen Ngoc Tho was promoted today).--Grahame (talk) 07:36, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
Wikipedia:WikiProject Blnguyen. Daniel (talk) 08:37, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
Hah! Don't forget Wikipedia:WikiProject Blnguyen/Daniel's occasional FL stint taskforce. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 08:39, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
Emphasis on occasional. Daniel (talk) 08:48, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Back to 100 FA/FL again. Is this time genuine? -- Mattinbgn\talk 23:45, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

We'll need to wait for Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Australia articles by quality log to update. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 00:15, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
See below.--Grahame (talk) 02:12, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Proposed move

I have proposed Stump-tailed skink be moved to Shingleback skink - discussion at the talk page. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 20:50, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

100th featured article/list

Satyrbot added WPA to Battle of Greece and this is now showing as 100th FA/FL, but it again raises the question of whether Australia's involvement in the battle warants inclusion.--Grahame (talk) 02:05, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

I must admit that I did not know much about this particular part of the 39-45 war, but having read the article, I'd say that Australia's participation was deep enough that it's worth the article being a part of this project. The article actually goes into Australian contributions to the battle in some detail, as well, which is nice. Lankiveil (speak to me) 03:46, 13 April 2008 (UTC).
Australia's involvement in this campaign was significant: about 1/4th of the Australian Imperial Force fought there, the Commonwealth forces were under the command of an Australian headquarters and several Australian warships escorted convoys to and from Greece. Hundreds of Australians were killed and thousands captured during the campaign, which basically wrecked the 6th Division as a fighting force. The bungled campaign also led to a collapse in support for Robert Menzies which caused the eventual downfall of his first government. --Nick Dowling (talk) 04:10, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
Just to add another voice of support - I'd researched this battle a while back, as my Grandfather fought in the 6th Division both in this battle and then in Crete. As far as I can gather, it is considered highly significant from an Australian perspective - between this battle and Crete which followed, almost 40% of the Australian troops in the division were either killed or captured, which is why the 6th took most of the war to reform. - Bilby (talk) 04:32, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Nambour Chronicle back archives now available online

Just saw this in ALIA's Incite magazine...http://www.nambour-chronicle.com/

"[A few governments/shires/whatnot] have scanned from microfilm and made available, in digital format, the entire full text run of this newspaper from 1903 to 1955."

Enjoy, dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 07:28, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Wow, they've done that very well with a searchable keyword index. And the paper has surprisingly reasonable coverage of national news. I only wish that more papers did the same. —Moondyne click! 08:39, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
By the way, I have registered an account there (it's free), so if anyone needs access and doesn't want to (or if they disable registration one day) gimme a yell. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 08:41, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
Add some registrations to bugmenot. ;) Thanks for posting this. Looks awesome. --pfctdayelise (talk) 12:33, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Love Outside Andromeda

Anyone heard of this band? May want to step in with some refs to see if it qualifies for notability. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 23:13, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

They meet WP:MUSIC#5, for the record - 2 albums on a notable label. I've watchlisted and removed the notability tagging...might work on it one of these days. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 23:15, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
OK, removed the probably copyvio that was attracting two of the tags there and whipped up a quick bio of them, and two refs (both Triple J). Article doesn't look terrible now! (For the record, I haven't heard of them, no.) dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 23:29, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
I've heard of them. They are not bad :) --pfctdayelise (talk) 10:56, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Review requested

I just wrote up Port Macquarie-Hastings Council dismissal, 2008 - it was getting way too big for a section of Port Macquarie-Hastings Council so a new article seemed worth creating. If anyone wants to have a go at improving it, or thinks a better title is warranted, feel free. In addition, probably an idea for those interested in such things to watchlist it as it could be controversial. Orderinchaos 06:45, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Powerhouse Museum PD images

User:pfctdayelise brought this up on the m:Wikimedia Australia mailing list (and just a quick plug that the incorporation meeting is on in 6 days!), but since I don't see it here I figure it's worth a mention - the Powerhouse Museum is releasing a large number of images into the public domain. The Flickr collection is here, and they're also being brought onto Commons here. And from what I can see, over half of them are geotagged. Those of you working on articles with a historic bent (particularly Sydney-based ones) would find it worth taking a look through them. Confusing Manifestation(Say hi!) 23:54, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Biography issues - other opinions sought

I'd like to invite general comment on the inclusion or otherwise of some material in the Estelle Blackburn article which is questioned by Cygnis Insignis. The details can be seen in the talk page for the article. As I've pointed out on my talk page under the heading BLP this has the potential to affect other articles/references, the "Claremont" article in particular. I also post this to the WA Wikiproject discussion page. Retarius | Talk 06:25, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Okay, only one comment received, from Gnangarra, on the discussion page for the article. I concur with his proposed modification and, as five days is a fair whack of the goanna's tail, I call this meeting closed. Retarius | Talk 08:36, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

New GG

First female GG Quentin Bryce to succeed Jeffrey [1] --Matilda talk 05:26, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Normally I'd say that was a significant first, but it's kind of hard to get excited when we've had a female head of state for the last 56 years. ;-) Hesperian 05:30, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
Ah, the takeover of this country by glorious mother Queensland continues =). Lankiveil (speak to me) 06:02, 13 April 2008 (UTC).
They only need a Queensland Chief Justice of the High Court and Rudd will have the trifecta. JRG (talk) 13:01, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

WikiProject Banksia mentioned in scientific study

This study on the use of scientific citations in Wikipedia found WikiProject Banksia's use of scientific references to be so good that it skewed the results:

"The total scientific citation pattern in Wikipedia is quite comparable to the total citation pattern seen between journals, though there is some tendency for Wikipedia contributors to cite high-impact journals, such as Nature and Science, more than journals that receive a lot of citations, such as Journal of Biological Chemistry. “Astro”-journals are often cited — more than would be expected from statistics from Journal Citation Reports. The Astrophysical Journals was found to be the most cited “Astro”-journal. Many citations also go to Australian botany journals, seemingly because of the Banksia Wikiproject that has made well-referenced articles for this genus of plants with the beautiful flowers. A number of the articles for these plants has become so-called “featured” on Wikipedia: Coast Banksia, Brown's Banksia (this Banksia is listed as endangered), Heath-leaved Banksia and Banksia epica."

Thanks to Cas for finding this. Hesperian 23:40, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Its a credit to Cas and you for putting together such good articles. Gnangarra 07:10, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
Absolutely. Looking through the Category:FA-Class Australia articles at least 10% are Banksias and Fairy-wrens, all very well referenced and written. Well done. -- Mattinbgn\talk 07:35, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
Good work to all involved. :) Is also an inspiration to the rest of us that making the effort with academic sources is worth it. Orderinchaos 07:41, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
Now THAT is freaking cool. congratulations on causing an outlier ;) pfctdayelise (talk) 14:56, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
Hats off to Hesp. and Cas for the recognition. You guys set a standard that we all aspire to. —Moondyne click! 00:38, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Sydney Images

If anyone is interested, this album on Flickr is full of fantastic aerial imagery of Sydney and its inner harbour, taken in Feb of this year - they are all Creative Commons images too. There are some good shots of the Harbour islands (I've already uploaded one of Cockatoo Island), Barangaroo before all the buildings were demolished, Rhodes Peninsula, Cabarita and Breakfast Point, and a couple of other places. It would be great if someone with a bit of time could upload some of these to Commons and put them on some of the pages; they would make good additions to our photo collection. JRG (talk) 06:50, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Quality count

The quality count for FAs, GAs and FPs above used to automatically update, but seems to have stopped lately. It shows 91 rather than 97 FAs.--Grahame (talk) 01:49, 30 March 2008 (UTC) 98, SatyrBot having discovered Red-winged Fairy-wren (+1 FAC, 1 FLC).--Grahame (talk) 06:33, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

The bot responsible for that job only runs once per day. -- Longhair\talk 02:24, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
It hasn't been running properly for some time. I manually updated it not long ago but it hasn't been touched since. -- Mattinbgn\talk 03:20, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
That's correct. {{Australia opentask/Count}} hasn't been updated by the bot since 23:07, March 10, 2008. There's been no changes to the code within that template that would affect the bot visiting and I can't spot any obvious problems. I'll drop the bot owner a note to see what's up. -- Longhair\talk 01:56, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
A bug in the bot's code had caused it to stop functioning. Things should be running as per normal now. -- Longhair\talk 09:07, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
Thanks, great news. -- Mattinbgn\talk 09:43, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Caulfield Grammar School

Hello all. At present this article is an FAC candidate. There have been few comments from reviewers, and I would be grateful to anyone who can read through the article and suggest improvements. This is a former FA and is very close to the standard required, but with only one opposing vote thus far and no detail as to the problems in the article I need help to work the article up to the standard required. Thanks. Harro5 11:41, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Port Phillip Channel Deepening Project

Hi everyone, I have worked on this article (mainly by myself) for a while now and it's been progressing well, it seems to be developing some good shape and form. This is quite a major issue at the moment that has caused alot of controversy and if we worked hard on it, it could be built it up to something quite good. I have made contact with Blue Wedges and their professional photographer and hopefuly I will have some images up soon...

Any help with expanding the article/suggestions/comments would be much appreciated. Davido321 (talk) 14:46, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Australian Admin/User needed at ANI

See Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Suicide. Thanks. KnightLago (talk) 00:43, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

This has been resolved. Thanks. KnightLago (talk) 01:19, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Deakin University associate professor

Did anyone read Wikipedia breeds 'unwitting trust' says IT professor and think "Research first, then conclusions"? Andjam (talk) 02:18, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Keep in mind that it is Sharman speaking - she mostly researches in KM (or at least that's where our interests tend to coincide), and thus what she's saying is from that perspective. In KM the aim is to collate knowledge, with a distinction being drawn between knowledge and information. From her perspective, Wikipedia is, at best, information, as knowledge has certain requirements (and I'd need to check with her as to how she sees this, but my guess is that she uses the justified true belief model) which Wikipedia doesn't enforce. She's focusing mostly on the truth criterion in the article, but also touched on justification. That being said, most of her claims are standard practice - no-one I know accepts Wikipedia for citations, (including Wikipedia), but the "acceptable" list is very, very small anyway, so the vast majority of sources are precluded. But I do find the "niche" versions of Wikipedia funny - by definition, they have to suffer from the same problems Wikipedia suffers from, or they need to apply a very different model. So I'm not sure that their appearance is relevant to her concerns. And I did think "research first, then conclusions" too. :) - Bilby (talk) 02:45, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
I think she lost credibility when the article said "she said, adding there are certain political views, particularly conservative, that are not tolerated on Wikipedia". That's right, POVs are not permitted on Wikipedia! Also, should we do anything about Sharman Lichtenstein? Lankiveil (speak to me) 09:13, 18 April 2008 (UTC).
Actually, I'm seriously surprised that she has an article - I wouldn't have thought an associate professor met the notability guidelines for academics unless they've done something special on the way. On the other hand, she is now in Computer World - does that provide notability? :) If so, maybe someone should update the article and kill the prod.
She lost me with "If someone asked me if I would dedicate a day a week to Wikipedia I would expect to be paid." There are issues with experts and Wikipedia, but that some experts wish to be paid isn't the same as all experts wish to be paid, and it is counter to my experience here. :) She should have a look at KM, which is (unfortunately, perhaps) buried in experts. On the other hand, my dealings with her have all been very good, so maybe the article takes her views out of context. - Bilby (talk) 09:22, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
Agreed with both of you. The ideas fit together in a way - the idea that one must necessarily be paid for sharing one's time and research is consistent with the conservative mindset which tends to want to control or repress everything or push it through a filter. That being said, her comment:
My students say Wikipedia is a good place to get a general understanding of a topic," she said. "They get a good understanding of a topic and get more specific information elsewhere. There is a need for easy-to-use information that is correct and has been produced by a rigorous process."
is exactly the advice I would give students. A citation of Wikipedia works for high school essays but the level of critical inquiry required at university requires sourcing well beyond it. It's funny, I was reading about that professor whose class turned out 1 FA and 7 GAs on Latin American literature (it's on a back issue of Signpost and well worth reading) and he seemed to believe that any article on Wikipedia at that level probably wouldn't need to be cited as it would be referenced so extensively you could go back to the sources the Wiki writer used and cited. It's interesting to note the lack of success of other services such as Citizendium which try to address the expert knowledge issue. Orderinchaos 09:32, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
I give my students the same advice. :) Indeed, I was writing a paper recently on the Turing test, (or at least the test figured prominately in the paper), and used Wikipedia to get an idea of where to start the research. Then I went back when the work on that area was done and started writing what I'd been reading back into the article. A neat circle. Given that Sharman seems to approve of using Wikipedia to start research, I'm surprised that the article as a whole was so negative. - Bilby (talk) 09:38, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
Orderinchaos's reference seems to be to refer to Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2008-04-14/2000th FA ("If a Wikipedia article is a good one, then you won't need to quote it, as it will have links to all the relevant sources."), which is all of 5 days old.--Grahame (talk) 02:34, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for that. For my part, writing while sleep-deprived is never a good idea. Orderinchaos 02:42, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
Which meaning of the word "conservative" did you intend, Orderinchaos? Andjam (talk) 13:10, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
Economic right wing, I suppose. It's an attitude I've heard offline before (well, one of two attitudes - the first one being that one shouldn't do something for others unless one is paid for it, the other being that it drives down the market rate for writers and is some kind of risk to the free market). Some social conservatives would also object to an encyclopaedia anyone can edit because of a fundamental mistrust of human nature and a belief that evil will rule when what they perceive as anarchy is allowed to flourish. Orderinchaos 14:12, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
Oh to make such statements publicly. Within the context of the comment one can only presume compensation was made for the comment, and therefore its not necessarily independent. Can reliability then also be called into question? Gnangarra 16:19, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
Chris Anderson of the Long Tail reckons you don't make money from comments like this. Instead, you monetize the attention through grants, speaking fees and book royalties and the like. Andjam (talk) 08:39, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
Supressing and censoring content is not consistent with free markets. Free markets mean being able to sell DVDs of Loose Change. (Thankfully, free markets also mean books like "Counterknowledge") Banning Loose Change or banning collaborative encyclopedias would be a form of protectionism. Andjam (talk) 08:49, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
I was thinking more of the Microsoft (and similar companies') response to open source, and claims it will kill off initiative elsewhere as commercial vendors will see no financial opportunity in innovation. I do agree with you, though. Orderinchaos 12:14, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Australian Collaboration of the fortnight

1983 America's Cup was ACOTF from 7 April 2008 to 20 April 2008

  • Only two contributors made only 2 edits
  • The article increased from 3264 bytes to 4197 bytes
  • See how it changed

Perhaps I failed by changing it late, and not notifying the nominators and voters.

Anyway, this time round is Australia-New Zealand relations. Let's see if we can do better. Please help if you can. --Scott Davis Talk 13:00, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Australia's "continental shelf"

With the recent news about "Australia's continental shelf being expanded" [2], it has got me thinking. You don't negotiate with the UN for this, you negotiate with the gods of plate tectonics for this :P I would have thought the correct term was "Australia's legal maritime claim" or "Australia's territorial waters" are being expanded. GA uses the term "extended marine jurisdiction". Does anyone have any other suggestions as to which term is technically correct and consistent within Wikipedia? -- Chuq (talk) 07:27, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

  • I think it is a good point to differentiate the geology from the international legal aspects, marine jurisdiction sounds fine to me and so does maritime claim or territorial waters--Matilda talk 07:39, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
  • The jurisdiction is actually expanded to cover the under-sea land of the continental shelf - it doesn't include the water above it (outside of the standard 200nm EEZ). I would go with the GA descriptor, and avoid referring to it as a "maritime" claim or "waters". PalawanOz (talk) 07:54, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
The proper term is "continental shelf" (which in this context has a legal meaning distinct from its geological meaning). See our article on UNCLOS and the relevant part of UNCLOS. --bainer (talk) 11:22, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Re:Standard Emergency Warning Signal Technical problem

I was not able to link to this website because it includes square brackets http://www.bom.gov.au/inside/services_policy/disaster_mitigation/projects/sews-30s[1].wav Sample of siren sound. What can be done about this? Kathleen.wright5 02:28, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks it worked. Kathleen.wright5 03:55, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
You should be able to use an escape code. Let's try ... [3]. Ta-da! Confusing Manifestation(Say hi!) 03:21, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

SMH Archives

If anyone has access to back editions (or online archives), I have found a SMH article from 1986 that (I think) I would like to use as a source in the Colin McCool article. My problem is that it costs $15 for a day-pass to the archives and I have no idea if the article actually contains the material I am looking for. Any help in accessing the article would be appreciated. Cheers, Mattinbgn\talk 03:55, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

I have access through NewsBank, so it might be there (they have SMH articles, but I'm not sure how far back, or how good the coverage is). Do you have a title? - Bilby (talk) 05:39, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
"One of Bradman's invincibles dies" dated Sunday, 6 April 1986. I have JRG on the case as well. Thanks very much for your help. -- Mattinbgn\talk 05:55, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
Sorry, it looks like NewsBank only has SMH back to 1999. If it is of any use, I've got 220 hits on his name in NewsBank, with some nice articles mixed in. - Bilby (talk) 06:02, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
Oh well, thanks for having a go. My email is activated if it is possible to email a list through. Specifically, I am looking for details on his military service and family details (parents, brothers & sisters, wife, children, etc.) education. My thought process was that they would be in an obit. and he died 5 April 1986. Thanks, Mattinbgn\talk 06:28, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
Here is a little information I have found:
Colin Leslie McCool married Dorothy Evelyn Yabsley in Sydney in 1943.[4]
Dorothy Evelyn McCool, late of Umina, died 28 September 2005 [5]--Melburnian (talk) 07:25, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
The Factiva database I have goes back to 1 September 1986, so just a little early. Recurring dreams (talk) 06:53, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
Thank you all very much. -- Mattinbgn\talk 12:29, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
Some libraries will also have it on microfilm, such as the National Library or your state library. It still takes about half an hour to find the reel, and then find the correct page on it though! Graeme Bartlett (talk) 12:13, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
As it turned out I was in Melbourne yesterday and visited the SLV. The staff there were very friendly and helped my find the article in microfilm and print a copy. It didn't quite have what I was after but it was still useful regardless. Thanks to everyone for the advice. Cheers, Mattinbgn\talk 04:02, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Shrimp farm

Somebody has added WPA and nine other country projects to this FA. I don't see the logic of this.--Grahame (talk) 03:07, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Neither do I. I think the bot's partying at the expense of us mere humans. :) Orderinchaos 09:05, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
Bah logic or not - Now thats adding cats with a vengeance ! - imho (as a cat tagger sometimes loose) all country tags should be removed due to the nature of the subject - it could keep going beyond that. Thats taking cats to the highest idiocy SatuSuro 09:07, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
Removed them - that was very silly. Just some random searching showed also Krill with an odd WP country tag - perhaps Krill is only Krill in Japan ? - Peripitus (Talk) 10:09, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Very dangerous territory there - best check all the whale articles for the same country name? your turn there :| SatuSuro 10:17, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Heads up

At Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Australia#Concern_over_Aussie_newspaper_articles, a discussion's started re the banner images we have for Australian newspaper articles, three of which are about the Cronulla riots. Orderinchaos 09:05, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Bulletin

Speaking of newspapers, is The Sydney Bulletin a different rag to The Bulletin? I've never actually heard of the former (not that that means much), and there's a clue that they may be referring to the same thing (Phil May, Norman Lindsay). Googling mainly refers to WP mirrors. Moondyne 16:12, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

This link certainly implies that they are the same. A search on David Low found a reference that says he was at the Sydney Bulletin from 1911-1919[6] and another that speaks of his involvement with The Bulletin during the same period.[7] The La Trobe reference also mentions the "Syndey published Bulletin" [sic]. --AussieLegend (talk) 17:38, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
The article on Phil May states he was attached to The Sydney Bulletin, or The Bulletin as it was better known - the initial creation of the article on the Sydney Bulletin referred exclusively to May. I have created a redirect.--Matilda talk 02:06, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
A search of the NLA catalogue also seemed to confirm they were the same thing--Matilda talk 02:18, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for that. Moondyne 01:19, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Category: Australians of British descent

This category has recently been created. I'm not experienced in such things but am concerned that it may not be a useful or notable distinction. ("Yeah her great-great grand-mother was from Britian.") In addition Category:Australian expatriates in Mauritius and Category:People of British descent have been created. Is this normal? Any suggestions? At this rate the bulk of all articles will consist of a mile of Categories with a little info perched above. SmithBlue (talk) 02:57, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

This is a bit of a silly one - thanks for highlighting it. Australian expatriates in Mauritius, provided they are notable for that, may be a useful one however. Orderinchaos 04:09, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
My dark vision is that every feature of an article will become a category. John Howard; Categories: Solocitor ,Syd Uni grad, MP, Treasurer, PM, PM lost seat, AustBrit Desc, pol, cricket fans, born year, parents married year, parents birth years, grandparents birth years, 4th child, former resident Earlwood, father in WWI, grandfather WWI, orphans, hearing impairment, speech impairment, etc etc etc. His info box alone contains 13 possible categories (to my count). At a guess I think we'll do 250+ categories easy if we try! Just making up this short list I begin to get a feeling of why catagorizing is so popular! Any chance of pointing me to some-where that will re-assure me (or offer treatment)? SmithBlue (talk) 04:52, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
I know this opinion will likely be unpopular, but why would an article appearing in a large number of categories be undesirable (provided of course that all of the inclusions are based upon reliable sources and the other usual criteria for including information)? Lankiveil (speak to me) 07:18, 3 May 2008 (UTC).
Provided the criteria are satisfied I don't see that it is undesirable but there has to be a reason for inclusion and a limit somewhere. For example, my mother is a sixth generation Australian but she is of British descent so theoretically she'd qualify for inclusion in the category if she had an article on Wikipedia. But should she be included? If you say yes then you have to place a practical limit on how far back you go because if you don't then every Australian bio should be included in Category:Australians of African descent. --AussieLegend (talk) 08:49, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
I was speaking generally, not particularly on the case of "Descent" categories. If we can reliably place one person or article into 200 categories, then why not? As far as the "descent" categories go, plainly there needs to be some reliable sources to confirm that actual descent exists (on the CfD page I ventured that either self-identification or citizenship would be good criteria to apply to stop things getting too ridiculous). That way, if I were notable, you could keep me out of "Russian Australians" and "Aboriginal Australians", even though I have both of those ethnic groups in my distant ancestral history. Lankiveil (speak to me) 09:04, 3 May 2008 (UTC).
Category:Deceased Australian expatriates in Majorca? Confusing Manifestation(Say hi!) 05:03, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
Stop it! You think you are being funny but just 40 minutes ago I was a normal content editor but already now I can't go for more than 1 minute without creating a new category. And it feels so good! Soon you'll be hooked to and then we can categorize all of Project Australia! (Humour) SmithBlue (talk) 05:10, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
Megan Gale, despite being born in Australia is in Category:British Australians just because one of her parents is originally British. I note she's not in Category:Polynesian Australians though. Nor is she in Category:British/Polynesian Australians or Category:Polynesian/British Australians. It really is ridiculous. I wonder when we'll see Category:Australians with bums. --AussieLegend (talk) 05:24, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

This is insane - too broad to be useful. Nominate for deletion I say. Peter Ballard (talk) 05:28, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

I note this new category (ie Australian's of British descent) is a category wholly consistent with the outcome and precend set in the recent discussion here
I myself would like to please, please point out that each and every notable Australian articled on Wikipedia will have 2 parents, 4 grandparents, 16 great grandparents, and 32 great grandparents .. thus, each and every person holds within thier biological selves the potential to be descended from people from 32 or more different nations .. and so categorised into up to 32 or more different 'descent based' categories .... making each and every one of the xxx(nation)-Australian plus Australian of yyyy descent based categories "nonsense" categories.
Not sure how to go about it .. but believe/agree all the Australian by nation/ethnic original categories need to be revisited/ thought about again .. and, if kept, may need to be subsistuted with Australians identifying as of xxxx ethnic origin?!! Otherwise .. as the song goes "I am, you are, we are all Australians"!! Bruceanthro (talk) 05:36, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Deletion nomination here: Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2008 April 29 Peter Ballard (talk) 06:04, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

and .. the other nation/descent based nonsense categories .. does this nominated get waited out first .. then see from there?!! Bruceanthro (talk) 06:16, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Act of Settlement 1701

Tagged an included in WP:AUST as a B-class article, while it ascribes who is the successor to the Queen it has no content specifically related to Australia. Is this a case of unnecessary tagging? Gnangarra 04:56, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Absolutely. Only those articles that WP:AUST are prepared to maintain should be tagged as such. This is an Act of the English Parliament that makes no reference to Australia at all. On the same principle, any Act of the English and United Kingdom parliaments before the Statute of Westminster 1931 that still applies to Australia could be tagged for WP:AUST. -- Mattinbgn\talk 06:18, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
It does affect the succession rules for our head of state (as far as I'm aware, there is no specifically Australian law to deal with this), but it's peripheral enough that I don't think there's any need for it to be a part of WP:AUST. Lankiveil (speak to me) 07:09, 3 May 2008 (UTC).

Image request...

Would anyone be able to help me out with an image for Taxiride? I haven't seen them live...has anyone? dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 01:46, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

on Flikr there are some like this Gnangarra 03:26, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
All rights reserved. :( dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 04:42, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Central Coast

Can someone with a knowledge of the social and demographic characteristics of this region please contact me? I'm trying to make sense of some political maps I've made which, well, aren't making sense as I don't know the area. Thanks. :) Orderinchaos 19:24, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Corey Delaney at DRV

Ooops...originally forgot to list this here. Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2008 May 7. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 08:13, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

He may now be notable for other things apart from his party antics. Apparently (so I've been told, I don't know for sure otherwise) he's released a cover of the Beastie Boys hit, (You Gotta) Fight for Your Right (To Party!) and also appeared on this year's Big Brother. -- Longhair\talk 08:22, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
Yep, sources for both of things are listed at the DRV. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 08:34, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Talking of web 2.0 social networking, is there any way for a bot to remind someone they're planning to go to a meetup?

Also, is he going to help us with our next wikimania bid? Andjam (talk) 09:54, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

1) Probably...WP:BOTREQ is your friend.
2) I hope so. ;)
dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 10:16, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Women for Survival

Does anyone have any additional sources on this rather bizarre protest/encampment in front of Parliament House through October 1986? I have an academic journal which describes the event in at times comic detail, but would prefer to have multiple sources from which to write the article. Orderinchaos 08:36, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

I doubt anyone on here would have much - your best bit would be to hit the papers. The Canberra Times would probably be a good start. Rebecca (talk) 09:34, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
Indeed even the NLA has one scrap book :( SatuSuro 09:43, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
I found a few SMH articles on Factiva but not quite enough to give background (most of them are at the level of salacious gossip). The Battye allegedly has the CT on microform so I'll look there when next I get in in a bit over a week. Orderinchaos 10:28, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Another roadside attraction?

A new nomination at Cfd Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2008_May_8 - Visitor attractions - interesting - 500 + category items - affects all state projects - worth a squiz - cheers SatuSuro 07:30, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Another again - the exciting changes again: - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2008_May_13#Renames_of_categories_for_National_Parks.2C_Protected_Areas.2C_related_categories_world-wide Just in anybody hasnt noticed all Australian protected areas are now up for the dramatic change of the word in to of - somebody wants to do a global, sigh SatuSuro 00:20, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

And yet another stroke of good luck http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2008_May_13#Category:Anti-submarine_missiles_of_Australia SatuSuro 06:49, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Talk:Chilean Australian

A few more eyes on this great debate might un-deadlock it. It is a 1-1 stalemate at the moment. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 02:07, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm having trouble understanding exactly what the issue is. --AussieLegend (talk) 05:53, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

The Brink - Tasmanian Eyes Needed

I came across these pages while on NPP:

There is no indication that they are particularly notable, and from my involvement with community radio here in Brisbane, I'm not sure that hosts of such programmes are automatically notable. Can any Tasmanians either verify for me that this programme and its hosts are more notable than community radio programmes normally are, or tell me that they've never heard of them? Lankiveil (speak to me) 11:37, 17 May 2008 (UTC).

Both articles are recreations of previously deleted material, I have redirected to Edge Radio and salted the pages Gnangarra 12:07, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

A nifty trick

The Twelve Apostles

As you probably know, Flickr's advanced search allows you to search for Creative Commons-licensed images that may be modified and may be used commercially. Such images are compatible with our mission, and can be uploaded to Wikipedia or Commons. I've often searched for images of specific things; I'm sure you've done the same. But just now I ran a search using only the word "Australia", and got 88,000 results. Then, instead of sorting the results by "most relevant", which I would normally do, I sorted it by "most interesting". The result? - A mixed bag of absolutely stunning photos. Some are too - what's the word? - pretentious - to be useful here, but many are both encyclopedic and beautiful. I just thought I'd share this trick, in case others want to try it out. Hesperian 13:31, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

This link takes you to Australia-images that are free for our purposes (derivatives and commercial uses are allowed). dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 01:10, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Melbourne Taxi blockade, 2008

I intend to initiate an article entitled 'Melbourne Taxi Blockade, 2008'. Has any one else a better tilte ? Thanks. Lentisco (talk) 02:28, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Per MOS it would have to be lower-case t for taxi. I have no opinion on its creation, although taxi blockades do happen from time to time in different locations and I'm not absolutely sure it would meet notability. Orderinchaos 02:31, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
Personally, I don't think the blockade warrants its own article. Ideally, Taxicabs of Australia would have a Victoria subsection, with a background to the service in Victoria, covering administration, vehicles, safety issues, incidents and industrial action, the latter incorporating a paragraph on this particular demonstration. This would place the blockade and the issues raised within the context of the industry as a whole. Melburnian (talk) 04:38, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Hmm...I haven't heard of it. Not sure how much that means, but I get the feeling it'd probably be a better candidate for Wikinews. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 04:41, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

It was last week (Thursday or Friday?) when the taxi drivers blockaded one of Melbourne's busiest intersections (Swanston and Flinders) right through the peak morning period, causing all manner of disruption. It was in response to the murder of a taxi driver and was generally protesting against perceived racism by police officers in handling reports from the South Asian community of this kind. Orderinchaos 04:59, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
I think we'll really have to wait a while to see if it turns into a historically notable protest. There was plenty of secondary coverage of it at the time, which means that it would probably survive AfD, but I'd still be more comfortable waiting a month or so and see if it's still being discussed. If it is, then it's good enough for an article, in my opinion. Lankiveil (speak to me) 04:04, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
It may be significant in a larger context. There was a recent taxidriver strike in Canberra, protesting about similar issues of security. Cabbies are often foreign-born and suffer significant racial abuse, extending frequently to fare evasion and occasionally to violence. I attended the Canberra meeting where there was some passionate discussion. --Pete (talk) 02:10, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
Maybe it merits a general page related to taxi activism in Australia? (No idea how one would word the title) Orderinchaos 02:59, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Albury vs Wodonga

Albury, New South Wales and Wodonga, Victoria both B class present an opportunity for Victoria vs New South Wales editor collaboration challenge which state can get their article to GA first. Gnangarra 12:56, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Of course if anachronistic colonial-era borders weren't in the way, Albury-Wodonga would be FA-class already! -- Mattinbgn\talk 13:06, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
State Borders are not anachronistic. They serve a useful purpose and you should know that. Our states should be smaller, yes, but there's no reason to completely reinvent the wheel on them. JRG (talk) 03:12, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
This is not the forum, but I disagree that State Governments perform any useful task that could not be done better at a national or local level. I am aware that constitutionally we are stuck with them for the foreseeable future, but this is not something to be welcomed. -- Mattinbgn\talk 04:18, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Naming convention

The naming convention for Australian towns (Town, State) should be changed to only (Town). For example Stanthorpe is only one place in Australia. But it is named Stanthorpe, Queensland. Only those towns which have similar names in other countries should follow the format (Town, State). Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 01:38, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree. But unfortunately this has been discussed to death numerous times, and many many people have come out in support of the current convention. Hesperian 01:41, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
See the previous discussion on this at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Australian_places. -- Longhair\talk 01:41, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
More specifically for policy at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_%28places%29#Australia SatuSuro 01:54, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
Everyone got there before me - but yeah, what they said. :) In my view having a standard form is a better approach. Orderinchaos 02:56, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
Yep - you're about 3 years too late to argue that. Sorry. JRG (talk) 03:10, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
It's never too late to change a bad convention... if only people would see it as such. Hesperian 11:24, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
Well - this place (oz project) or theirs? (WP Oz places project) SatuSuro 11:32, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
No, that's not my point. The conversation has been had. People are happy with the current convention. There's no point having the same discussion for a fourth time. All I'm saying is that the convention stays because people want it to, not because it is too late to do anything about it. Hesperian 11:35, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
Another explanation is that people don't care enough about it to go and make the changes. Wongm (talk) 11:39, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
Agreed with Hesperian that conventions can be changed if they fail to serve their purpose, although I disagree this is such a case (Chuq rather eloquently put my argument below). Orderinchaos 17:27, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
Or that it has all the point of the preposition preference argument here as listed further up this page - Peripitus (Talk) 11:47, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes, Stanthorpe is at Stanthorpe, Queensland. The good thing is, we know exactly where the article will be. The problem before is that we had to look at "Stanthorpe", "Stanthorpe, Queensland", "Stanthorpe (Queensland)", "Stanthorpe, Australia" and "Stanthorpe (Australia)", at an absolutely minimum, before being sure the article didn't already exist. For suburbs, you could add the forms "Richmond, Melbourne" and "Richmond (Melbourne)" to the list. This had to be done for every single city, town, suburb, or locality in Australia. The current rule is easy - Brisbane, Sydney, Canberra, Melbourne, Hobart and Adelaide are at those names; every other locality article is at <locality>, <state>. The alternate names can be (and often are) created as redirects. -- Chuq (talk) 12:23, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

  • I think Chuq has summed it up beautifully. The important counterargument concerning Stanthorpe is that if it is the only place in the world (or article topic with this name) it can be created as a redirect to the disambigated page. So we don't lose there. We do lose with the alternate as we don't know whether it has to be disambiguated or not. Sometimes too you can think there is only one such place but in fact there are others and that can lead to confusion - for example Mitta Mitta caused me some grief one time - I couldn't believe there could be another place called that and it is close to the border so I thought I was dealing with the right one :-( --Matilda talk 07:07, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

localhero.biz

In a number of different Australian articles the website localhero.biz is being used as a reference for various statements. The site itself seems somewhat dubious, appearing to an aggregation of various other sources. I believe because of this it fails the Wikipedia:Reliable sources test, and is best not used as a reference. An example of the mirroring - this and this. Any thoughts? Wongm (talk) 05:52, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

The site appears to be scraping content from other sites (possibly without permission) and surrounding them with ads, news, weather etc. Doesn't appear to be a reliable source at all. Here's a list of Wikipedia articles linking to the site to assist with the cleanup. -- Longhair\talk 06:06, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for that link - I wasn't sure how to work out which pages linked to it - only 68 to fix, I'm starting at the top. ;-)
If the link resurfaces after your removals, you may want to consider adding the site to m:Spam blacklist. -- Longhair\talk 06:29, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
A lot of the linked sites seem to be copied from Monash University's Australian Places, which is no longer on-line, but can be accessed from web.archive.org here. Melburnian (talk) 06:34, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
I think many of the link additions are just good faith ones by various authors, rather than spamming by the site owner. I was just going to mention that many of them seem to be from the defunct 'gazetteer' website before Melburnian beat me to it - it is very frustrating that that site got taken down. Wongm (talk) 06:43, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
the site shouldnt be added to the spam blacklist unless the site is intentionally placing the links. Maybe we need someway to identify sites that while the content may accurate the site itself isnt considered a relaible source. Gnangarra 02:13, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

High Importance article

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Convictism_in_Australia#Inappropriate_title_2 Convictism has had recent comments about its title - it would seem it needs a broader discussion location - so brought it here SatuSuro 08:24, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

I've added a reference to the SOED. I can't believe that anybody would question the existence of the word Convictism, clearly we are becoming very ignorant of our own history.--Grahame (talk) 11:16, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
Yeah, I'm not seeing any issues with that title... dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 11:20, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
It looks like there is still conversation at the article talk page as well - so if anyone wishes to support a view either way the article seems to the place to be SatuSuro 11:33, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
Questioning the existence of the word has nothing to do with ignorance of history. I'm well versed on our history but I'd never heard of the word until today. There are some words that are more obscure than girt and convictism is obviously one of them. I'm originally an electronics technician by trade and it doesn't surprise me at all that there are electronic technicians who have no idea what a twystron is. Not everybody is familiar with every word. --AussieLegend (talk) 11:59, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
In historical dialogue it's a fairly common term. But I can understand concerns along this line, it also sounds a bit awkward. I don't know what I'd support, though. Orderinchaos 12:51, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
The situation is resolved by moving to Convicts in Australia. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 02:51, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
Not - see the talk page SatuSuro 03:11, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Tania Zaetta

This has hit the news today. Can we keep a close eye on this article with zero tolerance for WP:BLP breaches. -- Mattinbgn\talk 02:06, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Now semi-protected. -- Mattinbgn\talk 02:23, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Proposed new wikiproject on Australian demographics

Hi - I am proposing a new wikiproject on Australian demographics. A draft project page is at User:Matilda/draft wikiproject‎. The gap I see is particularly in relation to articles on different ethnic groups in Australia. We don't have any consistency with these articles. There is some excellent data available from the ABS but it does need to be used carefully and with some qualifications. This use and qualifications should be consistent across different articles. Recently there has been exhaustive discussion concerning ancestry of Chilean Australians and potential understatement in the census data becuase those of Chilean ancestry might declare as Spanish instead (up to 1/3). Another issue also coming up at Chilean Australians and has also come up in discussing African Australians is the classification of individuals with biographies into these ethnic groups. The discussion at Chilean Australians concerns Chris Watson; for African Australians it was Marcia and Deni Hines and Billy Blue (as well as others). The same issues exist across the other articles too - sometimes violating WP:BLP. I am sure there are other issues to do with demographics that the project could pick up. However I thought I would float it here first - see if there was any interest other than from myself and Kransky, or if there was strong resistance to yet another wikiproject. Regards --Matilda talk 07:00, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

After participating in the Chilean Australian discussion I think this is a good brilliant idea. --AussieLegend (talk) 07:14, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
  • note - as well as making this a subproject of the Austrlaian wikiproject I would propose that it also be linked to Wikipedia:WikiProject Ethnic groups - I just haven't had a chance to incorporate that in the draft yet --Matilda talk 07:26, 21 May 2008 (UTC)


I would be interested in seeing the proposed scope of this project??
I for one am a little concerned to see some greater care, caution, standards and monitoring of the way ethnic and/or descent based labels (such as African Australian, Chinese Australian or even English Australian) are being assigned and attributed to individuals, and segments of Australia's populations (imagine a different time, and a different era assigning the label Jewish German) .. and I guess a demographics project of the kind you are suggesting might be an appropriate vehicle for this?
Should you proceed with the proposed project .. I for one would also like to suggest a proposed new project task (already!), to either expand the current Australian Aborigines article, or create a new one looking specifically at the way the Commonwealth census and statitics (demographics?) constitutional powers have been applied to Aboriginal Australians. While ABS figures might be good on other ethnicities (?), it would seem the ABS does not collect data, and may not know how many Australian Aborigines there are in Australia, and/or how those populations are distributed?!! (If I'm mistaken, I'd be glad to be corrected?) Bruceanthro (talk) 11:48, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
The ABS does collect data on Indigeneous people - it's one of the main questions on the Census form, and there are two social surveys targeted specifically at the Indigeneous population (NATSISS and NATSIHS if I've got the acronyms right). In fact, there are several publications on Indigeneous topics. It doesn't look like there are demographics for individual clans, but we do have a reasonably good idea of the general population distribution. Confusing Manifestation(Say hi!) 23:17, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
Thanks Confusing Manifestation .. Australian Aborigines was recently tagged as requiring an Ethnic Group InfoBox .. seeking details of the size of the population of Australian Aborigines plus centres of populations (plus sizes) of Australian Aborigines. Knowing of the large Torres Strait Islander populations in North Queensland .. I found the ABS combines the Aboriginal Australian and Torres Strait Islander populations together, and the census data may not collect/distinguish between the two? It seemed no data specifically on numbers of people identifying as Aboriginal Australian is collected?? (I will, of course, look further).
Regarding the demographics of Australian Aboriginal language groups etc .. I believe their may be some materials being generated around native title determination applications, and NNTT registerations, which might be an good starting point for doing some such demographics .. for anyone willing and with the time?! Bruceanthro (talk) 00:39, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Hi the scope of the project is outlined at User:Matilda/draft_wikiproject#Scope: all matters specifically relating to Demographics of Australia, including: articles relating to any subjects raised about Ethnic groups in Australasia and articles listed, or to be listed in the Ethnic groups in Australia navigation guide here. I see the project as complementing WikiProject Indigenous peoples of Australia which would deal with the expansion of the Australian Aborigines article. I do indeed see within scope for the project as some greater care, caution, standards and monitoring of the way ethnic and/or descent based labels (such as African Australian, Chinese Australian or even English Australian) are being assigned and attributed to individuals, and segments of Australia's populations --Matilda talk 23:41, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
I carried this advice forward into User:Matilda/draft_wikiproject#Open_tasks for your consideration?
The issue is a hell of a lot more complicated than that if you consider the historical aspects of how people have been counted from before federation and after - whether there is adequate academic or other info out there - the whole issue of the eligibilty to be counted - the status of people regardless of ethnicity - and all the old nineteenth century colonial hangups about being male property owner etc -- I havent delved into it - and I have no idea of the current status within academic disciplines about the issue - but if the demographic project gets up - a major issue will be the unfolding and ongoing issue of who gets to not get counted, or the lack of adequate checking - regardless of the capacity of the federal bureaucracy capacity or not - anyone au fait with federal parliaments funny games with the aec act over the last 4 or 5 federal elections would realise that there is a significant number of australians who fall between the gaps even now - so the issue with ethnic groups and their 'invisibility' is indeed a serious issue - history wars or no SatuSuro 11:59, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
In reply to bruceanthro (getting a little confused with the threading), the Census does generate counts for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander - if you go to http://censusdata.abs.gov.au and look up "Indigenous Status by Sex" for a region, it should give you a table with four categories - not Indigenous, Aboriginal, TSI, and both Aboriginal and TSI. You should be able to get that for individual areas, don't know an easy way to get population distribution in one step (there is a map for proportion of Aboriginal people by state, but nothing at a finer detail). The Census Dictionary has some good info in its definition of "Indigenous Status" - open the PDF and search for INGP. Confusing Manifestation(Say hi!) 03:26, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
Many thanks Confusing Manifestation! Going there now!! Cheers Bruceanthro (talk) 11:55, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Questia

Does anyone have subcription access? Blnguyen (bananabucket) 03:09, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

  • At 176 pages, I can't do it in full, I'm afraid. I can grab a reference for you or send along some specific pages/sections if that would help.- Bilby (talk) 03:33, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Is that because of a book restriction or because of the time consuming nature? The first two chapters were what I was looking for mainly for Gia Long and Minh Mang. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 03:36, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
  • A bit of each. :) At any rate, I should be able to help. I'll do my best tomorrow - I'm stuck in a boring meeting for a bit, so this will give me something to do. - Bilby (talk) 14:40, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Major bot run - heads up

OK, so I finally crossed my fingers, closed my eyes, and loaded all of Category:Australian music into AWB. Giggabot is now going on a field trip, armed with the Kingbotk Plugin, tagging everything (articles, categories, templates, and all) that wasn't tagged for the project.

If you see anything incorrectly tagged, please revert the bot, and remove the Australian music category (or subcategory) from the article/category/template/whatever. And then tell me about it.

Cheers, dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 04:40, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

All done! Logs are at User:Giggabot/AusMus; apart from 12 May, they're all in a format that can be copied into raw watchlist (here) if you like. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 02:39, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Commentary

Some guy's laid into us at the comments section here (look for "thelonenut"). An extract of his comments:

(referring to Indiana Jones) As far as influencing people with incorrect and exagerrated facts about archeology, paleontology, etc - it's only a movie, I think the existence of a site such as WIKIPEDIA is far more dangerous and insidious, as it contains blatant fallacies and opinions masquerading as facts - I personally know dozens of people, both adults and adolescents, who due to vast gaps in their knowledge and education, have the view that simply because it appears in print on the Internet, it must be true - if I was King of The World, my first act would be to ban Wikipedia - it is bunkum for the most part, and I am fearful of the state of people's mind who rely on this site for "information"

A science teacher responded to this comment, broadly defending Wikipedia, while saying it's useful more for providing an overview than as a research tool (a view I generally concur with) and that in his opinion some articles particularly in the sciences are of good quality. He noted a couple of his Year 11 and 12 students had fixed errors on Wikipedia they'd found while researching at the library.

Thoughts? Orderinchaos 07:21, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Not sure what you're after .. but, in terms of insidious influence .. I was actually pleased to read in Queensland Parliamentary debates (Hansard) couple of weeks back .. politician referring to and 'drawing on that great fountain of knowledge, Wikipedia' to give details on the size etc of the Great Barrier Reef! So, perhaps, some of the the editors of that article at least may be having more of an impact than they think .. not only 'planting' readily avaialble knowledge into students and newer 'internet' generations .. but also into some of this states and nation's decision makers?!! Should be able to track down the exact Hansard ref if anyone's interested!!! Bruceanthro (talk) 12:43, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
I quite liked "wiki-friend's" comments:
I'm more fearful of people that make broad comments without any facts, thelonenut cite your sources for Wikipedia being bunkum, where are the blatant fallacies and opinions masquerading as facts....
--AussieLegend (talk) 14:29, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
I'd guess he's been banned for pushing his OR or agenda, so he just puts down the whole concept. The best response is that if there is an inaccuracy with wiki, you can tag it, correct it or even delete it. If a book, journal, The Age, ABC or Channel 9 make an error, however, you MIGHT get a correction or apology a few days later but that original published version will still exist for future hard copy researchers (online versions might be corrected, but not always) The-Pope (talk) 15:49, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Foreign relations of Australia

Several articles are lacking on this topic. I do not have much knowledge on this topic, so I can't create the articles. Especially which are very important Australia-Germany relations, Australia-India relations, Australia-Pakistan relations and Australia-Venezuela relations. Is anyone interested in creating these articles? Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 13:49, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Draft Guidelines for Lists of companies by country - Feedback Requested

Within WikiProject Companies I am trying to establish guidelines for all Lists of companies by country, the implementation of which would hopefully ensure a minimum quality standard and level of consistency across all of these related but currently disparate articles. The ultimate goal is the improvement of these articles to Featured List status. As a WikiProject that currently has one of these lists within your scope, I would really appreciate your feedback! You can find the draft guidelines here. Thanks for your help as we look to build consensus and improve Wikipedia! - Richc80 (talk) 18:49, 25 May 2008 (UTC)