Wikipedia talk:WikiProject UK Roads

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REQUESTS FOR ROAD NUMBER SIGNS CAN BE ADDED HERE.

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[edit] Standardise route boxes for motorway articles

Hi and thanks for setting up this project. I note your open task and wanted to discuss it before it gets rolled out. The main format used (partly through my original set up expansions or amendments) and partly through what was there before is more like M2 motorway, A500 road which matches the road signs better. I had intended to go through and remove all colour to make them more accessible which seems to be a real requirement here. Regan123 18:39, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

I was the one who added most of them in the first place, but looking at them now, they're a real accessibility nightmare. M62 motorway's routebox, a neutral gray, looks better than M2 motorway's blue header. Will (We're flying the flag all over the world) 19:20, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
That's fine with me to change. I used italics and bold as opposed to colour where possible for emphasis. I would also prefer to have the road number at the end as this matches the signs better (this is not trying to be travel guide) but also being in the context of UK road signage. I have also amended my comments slightly above. --Regan123 20:38, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Seems like a good idea to me. One thing that confuses me, which I think should be clarified, is (for example M5_motorway J31 or M32 motorway J3) where there are, in effect, two exits at one junction. At present, we separate it with a black line, and make rowspan of the J3 tag 2. Should be so a similar thing with the new more accessible version? Ian¹³/t 16:29, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
I set them that way to distinguish between the non motorway and motorway stretches. If there is a better way to go, then I am happy to go with it. Regan123 19:39, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Coordinates

Please see Talk:M6 motorway#Coordinates for a discussion of the use of coordinates in motorway route tables. Andy Mabbett 21:04, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

  • And please see M62 motorway for use of coordinates in the route template; noting the final external link on the page (usng {{kml}}, to a service which passes the coordinates to Google maps, so that they can be plotted as "push-pins". Perhaps this project could make adding coordinates (using {{coord}} to other motorway route templates one if its activities? Andy Mabbett | Talk to Andy Mabbett 10:38, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] References / Short Article Clean-up

WP:SACU has a number of your motorway articles in its first few sets of articles (it's alphabetical, and A-roads come early). I've cobbled together references for those in my sets. If you have preferred way of adding references or maps to these short roadway articles (ideally, one no more difficult than Google Maps -- there are a lot of these to be done...) -- I'd love to know about them. Additionally, several folks in WP:SACU have suggested that some sort of reference template for roadway map links might be in order; I haven't the background for such an undertaking, but figure I'd mention it here in case someone here might be thinking similarly. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Courier (talk • contribs) 14:08, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Junction lists and IRC channel

Hello from across the pond! I thought I might want to bring up that the U.S. project put some discussion into it and came up with a standard for exit lists on our freeways. You might want to take a look at it and see if it's adaptable for British purposes. It's at WP:ELG.

Also, many Wikipedia road enthusiasts congregate in the #wikipedia-en-roads channel on the Freenode IRC network. The clientèle is mainly Americans, but there's a few Canadians too. We'd be happy to have anyone interested in roads to join in. Thanks! —Scott5114↗ 19:09, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] UK Roads/UK Transport WikiProject

Id like to suggest that a UK Roads WikiProject be set up as an expansion of the current motorways wikproject and similar to US roads WikiProject. This would help have a uniform articles through out the UK road systems and also a point for people to combine there efforts and consensus to more easily achieved. For the time being i would like to see what support there is for this before making an official proposal? Seddon69 22:32, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm okay with the the scope being expanded to A Roads, as the Motorway project already covers several roads. Will (talk) 22:41, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
My suggegstion would be to make WP:UKRD an umbrella project as WP:USRD started. Then expand from there. --Son 12:58, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

I would support an overall roads project. We've got some standardisation going, but only through a few users. Also, many of the articles are rehashed SABRE entries which is not necessarily encyclopaedic. Regan123 15:32, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Merging

We've got a few articles on former/planned motorways that could be merged. I would suggest that M16 motorway becomes part of the M25 motorway article, the M15 motorway becomes part of the A406 road and the M64 motorway goes into A50 road. They are short stubs, that are unlikely to grow and/or they contain a lot of duplicate information that is inherently linked.

I would also like to merge M63 motorway into M60 motorway and create a more comprehensive history. We risk duplication of effort at the moment. Regan123 15:34, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Importance scale

As I've just installed the parameter, we need an importance scale. I propose this:

  • Top - The most major routes in the country. Reserved only for the M1, A1, M25, M4, and M6.
  • High - other major routes. One digit numbers, with the exception of: M2, M20, M42, M62.
  • Mid - Ax(M) roads, two digit motorways and A-roads, major London roads such as Strand.
  • Low - service stations, local routes.

Objections? Will (talk) 21:00, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

In general for the roads I don't have a problem with that, but there will always be variations! And I thought I put the param in yesterday. Mustn't have got it right. Regan123 (talk) 21:07, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
Exactly, there will be variations, e.g. M2/M20. Should be a general guide, though. Will (talk) 21:24, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
OK. Been through the A1xxx roads and got the overwhelming majority. Couple I would like others to assess though, in light of comments elsewhere.Regan123 (talk) 15:17, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
Now completed the A5xx articles. Could someone else look at the remaining A1xx and A2xx ones as I've edited those a bit and am worried about a COI. Regan123 (talk) 00:44, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Although historically the number of digits in a road number was indicative of its importance, that isn't always true nowadays. Shouldn't the question of whether or not a road is a primary route be taken into consideration? (E.g. the A585 road is arguably more important that the A584 road on those grounds -- at the time of writing both are rated "low".) Once the importance scale has been agreed it should appear on the project page. --Dr Greg (talk) 13:18, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I've tried to adjust the rating as I go by reading the article to check importance. If I've got it wrong I apologise and feel free to change my assessment. The trouble is most articles claim to be a "major" road, without this being defined. We could put primary to mid and non primary to low if that is appropriate. Regan123 (talk) 18:48, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
Putting primary routes as "mid" (or higher when appropriate) seems a good idea, and that is an objective fact (determinable from maps) that doesn't depend on the subjective view of reviewers or editors. Do others agree with this? (A complication may be that, I think, some road numbers only acquire "primary" status along parts of the route. That's where a bit of subjective assessment may be required.) --Dr Greg (talk) 12:40, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] references

Hallo, Now that I've discovered this project, I'd like to link to a discussion I had recently with an admin about what constitutes appropriate referencing for roads - see User_talk:BrownHairedGirl#references_for_roads. At the time I couldn't find this project - not quite sure if it existed or not! Cheers, PamD (talk) 23:16, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Hi Pam. My feelings are the Motorway Archive is the first source to go to. CBRD and Pathetic Motorways are good when they are referencing official documents or have done the research. Their personal opinion sections aren't up to WP:V Regan123 (talk) 21:23, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Article tagging gone mad

Hello WP Roads, I have noticed that User:BetacommandBot has been adding the {{WPUKroads}} tag rather indiscriminately. For instance The List (magazine) and Edinburgh Castle are now listed as within the project, which I'm not sure is the case. It's because these (and other) articles are in Category:Royal Mile, which is a UK road. It may be worth investigating what other non-road articles are in street categories like this, meanwhile I will notify the Bot and start de-tagging Royal Mile articles. Thanks, Jonathan Oldenbuck (talk) 09:51, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Apologies. Should've really double-checked my lsit (I removed the Scottish Parliament, for example). Will (talk) 10:17, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] ELG vs. current templates

This is a straw poll regarding whether exit lists similar to that at WP:ELG or the current ones.

Will (talk) 17:30, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Support

  • Support oh dear, I'm a US road editor. ;) but I believe that we should use a standard style worldwide, with obvious adaptations to UK roads. --Rschen7754 (T C) 19:48, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Support - while I don't like it being made internationalised without consensus, I think it would cut down redundancy with junction boxes (i.e. very few junctions have vastly different destinations on each carriageway) Will (talk) 20:19, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Oppose

  • Oppose - I have plenty of problems with the US centic design of the lists. For the US Roads I think these work very well, but they are to my mind, far too busy, with too many images. The international coverage wasn't supported on the talk pages proceeding the MoS adoption and I see no real reason this should be made to be a "hoop" to jump through for GA or FA status. I think the A500 one can be improved on, but it is a better starting point. Most of the info in the ELG lists should be in the route prose (without it becoming an essay). Regan123 (talk) 17:47, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Comments

My concern with the ELG tables are:

  • Division by county - we've had edit wars galore over those on WP
  • A large amount of information not formatted for easy reading and covered in road icons
  • The tables don't cope with different directions shown on the road signs. The Highways Agency/Transport for Scotland etc defines the signage destinations and if we put other things on there, surely it becomes WP:OR
  • These large tables are not very good on smaller screens (eg. smaller laptops or older CRT monitors)

Regan123 (talk) 14:41, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

    • If counties aren't defined well in the UK, we don't have to use that column.
    • What information is this? I'm assuming M1 motorway uses the other format; there seems to be a lot of duplication between the two columns, but also ambiguity over exactly what ramps exist (the ramp configurations are not always symmetrical; just because you can exit northbound doesn't mean you can enter southbound).
Which is why the A500 road version was used as the example. It's very clear where the slip roads are. M3 also clearly demonstrates it in a very logical manner.Regan123 23:57, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
It's not clear to me; which ramps are present at the Stoke Road Junction? And what's with the "no exit" in both directions just below it? --NE2 00:07, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
Quite clearly you can't exit the road at that junction. Regan123 (talk) 00:37, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
But in which direction can you enter at Stoke Road? And are you saying that the junction just below has no exit ramps at all? If so, what road is it at and which direction can you enter? --NE2 16:52, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
You can't exit at that junction. That's all that's needed. Simple, clean, no notes needed. Regan123 (talk) 19:54, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
That's not all that's needed - which way can you enter? --NE2 00:20, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
    • We're not saying that what's in the table is what's actually on the signs, so I don't think there's an issue with original research. If you can get to the destination by taking the exit, even if it's not the best way, there shouldn't be a problem with listing it.
Road signs are used to manage traffic flow in many cases by directing you in one direction or another. And where do you stop? The A5 ends in Holyhead but starts near London. Exactly how many destinations are you supposed to list.Regan123 23:57, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
Generally the ones that are on the signs; if the signs list different destinations on each direction, we can combine them. --NE2 00:07, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
Which misses the point, ignores the second issue and doesn't deal with limited egress and access points. Regan123 (talk) 00:37, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
If it's a partial interchange, that goes in the notes column: "Northbound exit and southbound entrance". --NE2 16:52, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
And road exit north goes in one direction and the opposite in another (which does happen). More explanatory notes, more clutter. And still not dealing with my original second issue. Regan123 (talk) 19:54, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
In this relatively rare case, you split it into two rows. --NE2 00:20, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
    • The one in M1 looks fairly large, especially with the redundancy between the two directions. The example on WP:ELG looks to be about the same length; the only thing really making it bigger is the county column (which I adressed above) and the icons, which don't seem necessary given that they're just colored text. Maybe the motorway symbol would be sufficient.
And it's about 2/3 of the width, much easier to read, is clearer and simpler. The A500, A55 are good examples. Regan123 23:57, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
It's only about 2/3 of the width because it's so much taller, due to a bunch of line breaks. --NE2 00:08, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
Which makes it perfect for alternative display sizes beyond 17" LCDs. Regan123 (talk) 00:37, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
On small monitors, the ELG format will line-break, but on larger monitors it will use the full width. --NE2 16:52, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
And still looks an utter mess. Regan123 (talk) 19:54, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
Your opinion, and not that of those who worked on ELG. --NE2 00:20, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
    • --NE2 01:37, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I was the one who initially added the UK example to WP:ELG, which is based on a section of M6. I didn't find it particularly difficult, other than when opposing directions have different destination cities. As for counties, I used this map of ceremonial counties. Feel free to ask me any questions about adaptation issues. —Scott5114↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 02:07, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the offer, but I'm not having a problem with finding them, I just don't see the point of them. Regan123 (talk) 00:37, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
Well, it provides another layer of context for the location of the exit/junction. In the US, there can be areas that aren't part of any town (or on the flip side, a city with such a large area it's in multiple counties, like Oklahoma City), and thus the county is the only point of reference you have. That said, looking at the ELG's UK example, I don't know where Croft is, but at least I've heard of Cheshire, which helps give me a starting point for further research, if I so desire.—Scott5114↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 03:40, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Peer review of London congestion charge

I have requested a peer review of London congestion charge. Any comments would be gratefully accepted as well as any advice on getting a map for the expanded zone. Regan123 (talk) 01:16, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] WikiProject Highways

Heya guys, we need to be more involved in WP:HWY. It is mostly USRD run and i think for any chance of agreeing a global consensus for anything that happens on highways, UK involvement is really needed. Also use of the #wikipedia-en-roads channel will help get things going on highways towards international consensus. Seddon69 (talk) 23:43, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Order of roads in infobox

This has been raised at Template talk:UK road routebox: Should the roads listed be in geographical order, or senority (i.e. motorways above primary routes, standard A-Roads, B-Roads etc)??? My reply was: Erm. I change my mind on this often. Seniority looks neater, but geographical is more accurate. Really I don't think there is a defined position. I'll raise this at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject UK Roads. What do people think? Do we need to define it? Regan123 (talk) 19:46, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

I think that having a huge infobox is unnecessary by having up to 30 different road numbers in the infobox, and that using an exit/junction list is a lot tidier. Seddon69 (talk) 13:14, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Decommissioned Guideline

This are plans for a guideline to be drawn up over the usage of the term Decommissioned at WP:Highways here. There is to be as much input into this as possible. Its has taken a long time for this to get this far. It is important that this is done with the consensus of ALL roads projects.Seddon69 (talk) 02:20, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Gray's Inn Road

Seeing as I'm here... As everyone at WP:LONDON and WP:LT has already flung up their hands in disgust and backed slowly away, anyone here want to take on the Augean stable of original research, trivia and insane over-attention to detail that is Gray's Inn Road? (Currently longer than Hertfordshire and Oxfordshire combined!) — iridescent 18:42, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Shouldn't it go to AfD? There is no assertion of notability... Regan123 (talk) 22:30, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
After the firestorm of protest when I last AfD'd London streets - all of which were considerably less notable than this - I'm extremely reluctant to AfD this myself as it will look like a bad-faith nom. — iridescent 00:17, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Road Lists

Hi, i've now completed the A road lists for Zones 1, 2, 3 & 5. 4 is nearly there. I then plan on tackling 6. 7, 8 & 9 are missing loads of entries and if anyone feels like expanding them I will tackle the road signs. I've not got the B roads on my radar at all yet. Cheers, Regan123 (talk) 14:53, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

OK 4 & 6 are now complete, leaving just 7, 8 & 9 which are at least smaller. For the B roads I have found this link which has a list of all A and B roads in 2005 in excel format. Regan123 (talk) 15:25, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
All zones are now complete for the A roads. Also all roads now have a road sign image.Regan123 (talk) 19:24, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Great Britain road numbering scheme

I have opened a discussion at Talk:Great Britain road numbering scheme about refocusing the article now that we have Roads in the United Kingdom. Suggestions, comments, references (in particular) would be very welcome... Regan123 (talk) 19:17, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Active Traffic Management

Would someone mind having a look over this as I have rewritten it today. I originally assessed it as a start but it might be improved to a B I hope. I do want to get this to GA as well. Regan123 (talk) 17:24, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] London congestion charge

I have nominated London congestion charge for featured article status. Comments are welcome at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/London congestion charge. Regan123 (talk) 22:34, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Congestion charging generally

Copied from User talk:Regan123

It seems that congestion charge schemes are to be implemented across the whole of the UK, according to the BBC. Maybe do you think a general article on congestion charge schemes in the UK should be created. Cities identified so far (implemented or not) include: London, Durham, Derby, Edinburgh, Manchester, Belfast and probably many others. See here Simply south (talk) 22:46, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Hi. We already have Motoring taxation in the United Kingdom which we could redirect Congestion charging in the United Kingdom to. That article has a few too many stub sections at the moment, but work is keeping me away from WP, annoyingly. I will look at the Belfast and Derby schemes soon and see if we can create other articles. There is also an overview at Road pricing as well. Regan123 (talk) 22:50, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
It doesn't seem like all things mentioned are to do with congestion charging. Motoring taxation seems to be about the many different types of schemes, of which congestion charging is just one, others including road tax and tolls. I do not think motoring taxation should redirect. Simply south (talk) 23:04, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
No. I was talking about the other way round - congestion charging redirects to Motoring Taxation. At the moment I'm not sure we have enough for a separate cohesive article just on congestion charging. However I was also planning on doing an article on road pricing proposals from the government. Maybe the two could be combined into one article with a summary in Motoring Taxation. Regan123 (talk) 23:07, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
I've had a further search on google and just simply congestion charging is being talked about being introduced into most major cities by the various authorities, so not just the cities i've mentioned. Examples of other cities where it is, or most likely, to be implemented are Liverpool and Newcastle although others seem to be backing down e.g. Bradford. Simply south (talk) 23:15, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
OK. I'll try and pull something together but it won't be for a few weeks yet. Alongside work i've got the FAC to work on! Regan123 (talk) 23:20, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
And make that it seems many cities generally and some towns. I think most are still proposals only. And i won't hurry you either. I've got a huge assignment to do myself. Btw, do you think we should move this discussion to one of the many projects and then some? Simply south (talk) 23:25, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

What do people think about congestion charging? There are talks on many congestion charges in towns and cities across the UK. Thoughts and opinions? Simply south (talk) 23:57, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] M62 motorway will most likely be on the main page on 4th February

Just a heads up - I've requested that the article M62 motorway be on the main page on Monday (as the chances of London congestion charge getting there two weeks later are slim because it's been on once), and there are currently 3 supports and 0 opposes. Thanks. Will (talk) 18:00, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, 28th. The request for the 4th narrowly missed. Will (talk) 11:56, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Highways on Commons

WT:HWY#Highways at Commons 哦，是吗？(O-person) 03:59, 05 March 2008 (GMT)

[edit] UK road terminology?

Hello. I've just created List of road-related terminology. Could I get a few UK editors to look over it and add some UK road terminology and/or mark terms that aren't used outside the U.S.? Road enthusiast slang or other informal terms are OK for the purposes of this list. Thanks in advance! —Scott5114↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 19:24, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] B-class drive, Importance Scale and to do list

Hi all,

Continuing the discussion about Importance Scale. I have been assessing articles as such:

  • Top - The major motorways in the country e.g M1, A1 & A1(M), M25, M4, M6 etc. i.e those that link major cities or go through many counties. Also this should include large motorway bridges such as the Severn Bridge and Humber Bridge etc.
  • High - Other Motorways that do not fall in the Top class for example M50, M23, M69 etc. as they are either shorter in length or carry less traffic than the Top Class. It would also include major A roads that are largely dual carriageways and again go through many counties such as A55, A34, A30 etc.
  • Mid - Minor spur motorways that have very few junctions such as the M271, M275, A48(M) plus A roads again that are likely to be dual-carriageway but are local roads (probably ring-roads).
  • Low - Service stations, A roads (green and white signs including Trunk roads) that are single carriageway roads. I would also include proposed motorways that were never built.

The list is very close to the list that Will produced (above) but I have added a little more description. It is subjective I know.

Next I go onto "B-class drive" from the main page. I believe we should try to get every Top Importance article to Good Article status, as a minimum. For all High importance we should aim for B Class as a minimum, but for Mid and Low importance articles we have to accept that they are probably never going to reach B Class and in some instances not even Start Class, therefore Stub Class is acceptable as a minimum class. Agree / disagree ? Seth Whales (talk) 01:01, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Over-lengthy route descriptions

Hi folks, I've been adding {{essay-entry}} to any UK road article which has a prose-format route description. I've started an Editor assistance discussion about one particular article, where an editor who feels like he "owns" the article has twice removed that tag with little consideration for Wikipedia policy or this Project's B-class article guidance. I would welcome your thoughts and actions on this matter.  — MapsMan [ talk | cont ] — 08:33, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Primary Destinations

I've noticed a lot of people have added towns to the List of primary destinations on the United Kingdom road network where they are in fact not so, and likewise to the road articles' routeboxes. As far as I know, the only official guidance to which destinations are primary is in the form of Local Transport Note 1/94 published by the then Department of Transport. Highway Authorities do frequently ignore this guidance, either wilfully or unwittingly, but our place as an Encyclopedia is to record fact backed up by official sources. I would appreciate this project's editors' assistance in checking articles that erroneously give Primary Destinations that are not the case. However, if anyone is aware of any other official instrument specifying Primary Destinations either nationally or regionally, then please let me know. I have a PDF copy of LTN 1/94, should any editor wish to have it available; although I try to keep on top of List of primary destinations on the United Kingdom road network to ensure the destinations listed are included in LTN 1/94.  — MapsMan [ talk | cont ] — 08:37, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Wikibook Project: Open-version highway code

As a sub-project of mine and as another hobby I would like to ask if any others who have passed their CBT, Direct Access and Driving licenses would like to contribute towards a pinpoint-accurate-referenced version of the highway code, and perhaps if popular enough open replacements for driving test related books for other countries. Of course, I will be e-mailing the DSA and others to see if anyone there would be willing to review the book for legal accuracy before it is considered a "complete" project. For anyone that is interested, please leave comments below rather than on my talk page. J O R D A N [talk ] 02:49, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] A149 road

Following a request at editor assistance, this article could probably use a once-over from this project. Its style seems to be out of step with the style used on other road articles. Thanks. Pastordavid (talk) 15:31, 21 May 2008 (UTC)