Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Clans of Scotland

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Contents

[edit] Original project: Tartans

I think its needed. Wikipedia should contain more information than any enecylopedia has ever had. The image is abit to large maybe scalling it down to 250px wide. - fonzy

I'm thinking for the standard size maybe 320 X 320 pixels at this same scale. This one could afford to be scaled down and still be okay, but some of the others have a whole lot of really tiny stripes, in both directions, and I'm afraid those details would get lost if I scaled them down much more, and some of them have a much larger "repeat" than this one, but I think using a square for them would work -- that is, using what is the full width of the book image for the height, too. A 320 square fits on my screen nicely, but I don't know what settings other people are using. -- isis 10:59 Oct 24, 2002 (UTC)

I'm sure that this will be popular but bear in mind that it will be a never-ending task. Remember that most tartans are the work of marketing people working for Scottish woollen mills. They started work after Sir Walter Scott invented the modern concept of tartan in the early 19th century and they're still at it. New tartans come out every month. -- Derek Ross 11:22 Oct 24, 2002 (UTC)

I'm not sure I understand your point -- are you saying that's a good thing or a bad thing? There are new plaids all the time, surely, but if we're talking about clans' tartans, there can't be a new one until there's a new clan, so they can't be proliferating all that fast, I think. (Or are you suggesting expanding the list of tartans to the non-clan ones, too?) But even if they are multiplying like rabbits: (1) that's the best reason I've heard yet for doing it here, because a book of the clan tartans can't be updated without printing a new edition, but the 'pedia can be up-to-date all the time; (2) that will give contributors new material (pun intended) forever, so it's like job security; and (3) just because somebody starts a new article or list doesn't make them responsible for keeping it current, so it's not going to be my problem, if problem it is. But now that you mention it, and I see you're in Scotland, while I'm a whole ocean away, and you already know more about the practical stuff about tartans than I do, I think you should volunteer to oversee this project to make sure it's done right. Would you? -- isis 12:48 Oct 24, 2002 (UTC)

Going by the Wikiproject title I thought that you meant tartans. I'm not really saying that that's a good thing or a bad thing. I'm just trying to say that it's an absolutely enormous task and I don't think that we could keep up. However if you really mean a Wikiproject on Clans and their tartans, then that's much more doable. However 99% of clans didn't have a specific tartan before the 19th century. Now it's got to the stage where each has several. I can choose to wear Ancient Dress Ross, Ancient Hunting Ross, Modern Dress Ross, Modern Hunting Ross and no doubt others which I'm not aware of. None of these existed more than two hundred years ago no matter how Ancient they claim to be. The big thing in mediaeval Scotland was Coats of Arms and Crests not tartans. The Lord Lyon's court is the oldest heraldic court in the world still in operation. Check out http://www.heraldry-scotland.co.uk/Lyoncourt.htm if you're interested.

Anyway, if we were to do articles on individual clans which mention the tartans that would be good but I think that we just need a general article on tartan itself. I'll happily comment on and discuss a Clan WikiProject with you. -- Derek Ross 18:33 Oct 24, 2002 (UTC)

There are at least mourning tartans, chiefs' tartans, and district tartans, in addition to those you mentioned. The book I have says "ancient" just means it's a lighter shade and that the clan tartans going back to the 1600s were simple two- or three-color checks but distinctive as to district.
If this project wants a source of tartan images, in a standard format, they can be obtained from my Tartan Generator site. Ok, I'm blowing my own trumpet here – but there's nothing in it for me, the use of the site is free. It has several databases of setts, not all of them still publicly available, as far as I know.
Something that can (and should) be standardised easily is whether to portray tartans diagonally or "straight". More difficult to standardise is size, as some have much greater pivot-to-pivot distances than others, e.g. Gow and Innes. Even selecting a large, say 240 pixels each way, square of each would be problematical: if done by clipping, some would be truncated in an obviously asymmetrical way, and if done by resizing an image with a whole number of repeats, there will be undesirable "beat" effects where the resizing factor interacts with the pattern. Maproom (talk) 13:30, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Project:Clans

Yes, what I have in mind for this project (subject to what I hear from everybody else) is what I said on the subject page: A list of the clans on a page that discusses the concept and has links to all the separate clan articles. Each article would include the history of the clan, its mottoes and war cries and theme songs and crest badge and whatever else we know about it, plus images of however many of its tartans we have and a list of the surnames it comprises. Then there would be one page on tartan(s) -- for which there's already a link on the kilt page -- and then we could list and link the pages with the images of tartans to that one however we decided to (or not). If we wanted to expand to non-clan tartans, that page would give us the jumping-off place to separate pages titled with the names of the tartans themselves or to pages for the mills that designed them or whatever.
This project is part of my campaign to make every 'pedia article multi-media, so I'd love to be able to get sound clips of the various clans' fight songs and such. So let's keep the name for the project page (unless you want to change it, because I don't know how to do a page move yet, and I'm not sure when I delete one I'm doing it right) but with the understanding it's really a project on clans, and when we start setting up the pages, they'll say "clans" instead of "tartans". But I want to work on images, not text (and maybe not anything if enough other folks are willing to do it). And welcome aboard. -- isis 19:12 Oct 24, 2002 (UTC)

That sounds good to me, Isis. -- Derek Ross 22:09 Oct 24, 2002 (UTC)

Is scanning in Tartan photos from a book allowed by copyright? -- 137.111.13.32

Yes. -- isis 01:23 Oct 25, 2002 (UTC)

Could you try to make a mock artcile? - fonzy

Yes, having waited a decent length of time for input from the nay-sayers I know will crawl out of the woodwork as soon as we post it, I'll put something together, but I may not get it done until after the 4th, because I have an appellate brief due then that I haven't started yet. I thought I'd do Clan Ross for the prototype, since Derek probably knows the most about it and so can better tell if we're dealing with all foreseeable issues. -- isis 20:35 Oct 27, 2002 (UTC)
Not to be a nay-sayer or anything, but isn't the association of tartans with clans a fairly recent notion? (see http://www.fabrics.net/tartan.asp). Not that they aren't interesting in themselves, but it would be wrong to perpetrate the idea of a clan's 'ancient tartan' if in fact it dates from the 1800s... -- Someone else 21:27 Oct 27, 2002 (UTC)
"Ancient" doesn't mean "old" in this context, it means "faded" in the sense of a lighter shade -- it's a term of art. We all know the modern tartans don't go back very far, but all the other indicia of clan identity do, which is one of the reasons we're doing clans now, not tartans. Would you like to help, please? -- isis 21:33 Oct 27, 2002 (UTC)
If I see anything I can add, I certainly will, though the likelihood is I'll be of little use. I just beg you to make clear that 'ancient' means 'faded' each time you use it, because otherwise the non-cognoscenti (like me) will be misled, since it's not the usual meaning of the word. -- Someone else 21:39 Oct 27, 2002 (UTC)

[edit] Thumbnail images

About Images: If we follow a format similar to that of WikiProject Countries we will have a thumbnail picture (or slightly larger than that) and a larger version of the picture. The main article will have the smaller picture on the screen and then a link to a larger picture, such as a link to a "Fullsize Picture." This solves the problem of having too large pictures on the main article (for people with slow internet connections and so forth) but allows you to have a larger image that people can see the important details if they desire. Clearly JPEG images should be used to lower file sizes. -- Ram-Man

[edit] Requirements

This is my (poor?) attempt at summarizing some of the requirements for these articles:

  • General Requirements
    • A list of clans on a single page which introduces and discusses the concepts.
    • There would be one page on tartan(s) listing and linking the pages with the images of tartans to that one however we decided to (or not).
  • Specific Information
    • Clan History
    • Crest Badge
    • Coat of Arms
    • Tartans
      • Use pictures no larger than 320x320 pixels (smaller?) using the .jpg format.
    • Area of Scotland (with a map?)
    • Mottoes
    • War Cries
    • Pipe Music (Clan Songs)
    • List of surnames it comprises (what is the upper limit to the number of them for a single clan?)

The book I have lists about 600 surnames for about 125 clans, but some surnames appear in more than one clan. Rough estimate: Most clans will have about half a dozen, some have a dozen or more, so I think the upper limit would be around two dozen. For the maps, I was thinking of one standard outline map of Scotland (or maybe even just the Highlands) and coloring in the part(s) where that clan is. There's some work to be done on the crests, because the ones in the book are b&w line drawings with a heraldic description that doesn't always mention any colors; the text says they're used on stamped metal badges, so we need to decide whether to do them as line drawings, silver-gray, or multi-colored (when we know what the colors are).

Most of the clans have at least two tartans, although the book pictures only one for each of them. I don't want to futz around with thumbnails and larger pictures for the tartans -- I think it will be more efficient to use one size, the smallest that allows the thinnest stripes in the pattern to show clearly (probably 250x250 pixels) but show as many as we know and have images of. I don't yet have any pictures of anything except the tartans (and the drawings of the crests), but we should allow room for images of famous people and/or events in the clan's history. Most of the clans have "plant badges" (like heath, holly, myrtle, hazel -- for Clan Ross it's juniper), and I have some b&w line drawings in a Dover clip-art book or two of public-domain plants, but not nearly all of the ones needed for all the clans; I'd like to have space for the ones we do know and can find images of, but that's on my wish list, and if the consensus is it's too much trouble, I'm willing to do without images.

Will any of you be able to buy or borrow copies of the book I have (or any other that has the same info) so I don't have to provide the text for whoever's going to write it up for each article? For any of you who don't know it yet, ISBNs link automatically, so if you just click on them, they take you to on-line dealers to buy them from: ISBN 0-00-411117-6 is a small hardback, and ISBN 0-00-636416-0 is a "Fontana" (whatever that may be), but in different editions it may have different ISBNs; mine is the 1984 reprint. I'm hoping to do no more than scan stuff in, whether tartans, crests, and/or text for someone else to rewrite into the article.

Not all clans have all items, but the categories are:

  • name in English
  • name in Gaelic
  • origin of name
  • crest badge
  • motto
  • plant badge
  • war cry
  • pipe music
  • dress tartan
  • hunting tartan
  • clan history -- about three paragraphs for most, fitting on one page

I don't know anything about putting music clips in except that one can do bagpipes with midi. Where we would get the scores I have no idea, but then I haven't looked for any yet. So what else does anyone need to know from me at this stage? -- isis 03:29 Oct 28, 2002 (UTC)

I've posted a sample page at Wikipedia:WikiProject Clans of Scotland/Sample page/Clan Ross for us to start working out the format, and there's some info about it on its talk page. -- isis 13:55 Oct 28, 2002 (UTC)

[edit] Hello...?

is there any hope in getting this up and running again? - fonzy

Who else is actively adding content to this area - Nfras 00:02, Feb 28, 2005 (UTC)

No one at the moment. The main force behind the idea does not contribute to the Wikipedia any more. However it is reasonably complete when viewed as a template, so if you want to use it to format clan articles, feel free -- Derek Ross | Talk 06:48, Feb 28, 2005 (UTC)

OK, thanks Derek. I have been using the template and adding some clans. I am going to start by adding an entry for every clan of the Standing Council, starting with Agnew and working my way down. The major problem I have is getting hold of tartan pictures that are copyright free. If anyone can get a source it would be great. Nfras 05:24, Mar 2, 2005 (UTC)
I'll add some content, just the same as the usual Wiki articles?

[edit] Sample WikiProject

Template:SampleWikiProject

[edit] Macintosh

The Mac link point to the computer. Anyone more qualified want to make a proper Mac page or must I?

[edit] Clan Munro

Been playing with a page for Clan Munro at User:CatherineMunro/Clan Munro -- comments? I need to write the history section properly, with some more research, but am getting the basics down for now. Anyone? Anyone? Bueller....? Catherine | talk 05:37, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Looks fine to me, Catherine. But you might want to change the title that says "Septs of Clan Ross". -- Derek Ross | Talk 08:22, 2004 Oct 28 (UTC)

[edit] Structure

Instead of the verbose structure provided on the Clan Ross Sample Page which was recently added to the Clan Ramsay article, I've created a template for this type of data. See Template:Scottish Clan. Also see Clan Ramsay for how this template is used. Adraeus July 3, 2005 02:11 (UTC)

Looks nice. Of course we didn't have the option of templates when Isis came up with the Clan Ross layout, so the verbosity is more a result of keeping it simple enough for ordinary users to edit without them. Templates make this sort of thing much simpler. -- Derek Ross | Talk 3 July 2005 06:12 (UTC)

[edit] Current Status of Clans Project

What is the current status of this WikiProject? How many folks are still working on it, or interested in doing so? There is a Highland Games Wikicity, founded by myself last April. Should this project be tied in with the Highland Games Wikicity in some fashion? Or perhaps the main work should be done on the Wikicity with subsequent transfer of relevant material to Wikipedia?

JFPerry 01:51, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

I'm definitely still interested, though I've just found the project.
Still interested but not having much time to contribute. I'd like to have an entry for every clan up by the end of next year if that's possible. (Nfras 05:08, 30 November 2005 (UTC))
I don't think that anyone is actively working on this project at the moment. However if someone wants to, just do it. You don't need to ask anyone. You can see the basic framework by looking at the project page. All you need to do is implement it! Cheers, Derek Ross | Talk 06:41, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Can I add myself as a participant in the project page and set about helping out, using the templates linked to above? I'm a real, live Scottish Highlander (who still lives there) and would very much like to help out with this worthwhile project as much as possible. Lianachan 17:54, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Please do. - Trevor MacInnis (Talk | Contribs) 18:13, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Consistency

It seems to me, especially when we have so many Clan articles, that we should strive for at least a bit of consistency. I've been using Template:Scottish Clan (created by User:Adraeus) viewable at Clan Fraser and Clan Ramsay that I think works well.. At least, the page looks a bit more tidy than some of the other Clan pages I've seen, which have large, bulky images and bunches of blank page space. The biggest issue is that entire sections are devoted to as little as one or two senctences, sometimes even only a few words' worth of information (Clan Ross is a good example of this). What do the rest of you think? Canaen 00:46, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] CFD - Category:Scoto-Norman Clans, keep or delete?

There's a CFD (Category for Deletion) procedure in process for Category:Scoto-Norman clans.

Somebody had posted a truly rubbish bit of text there (a rather strange ramble about Clan Fraser), on the Category page rather than an Article page; while failing to categorise a single article as relating to a Scoto-Norman clan. Which provoked a call for deletion. I've cleaned things up a bit: moved the text to an article Scoto-Norman clans (though it's still rubbish); and added "Category:Scoto-Norman Clans" to a few clan pages.

I don't know whether the category should be kept or not. I think it's really up to people following this project to decide. Is it a useful thing to have a category, gathing up all the clan articles with origins identified as Scoto-Norman? Is it a useful common link explaining any shared traits in the subsequent history or behaviour of some of the clans? Or (since most of the clan members had no Norman descent) is it an irrelevant non-useful over-specificism that should be deleted? Or delete at the present stage of the project, perhaps to be re-considered at some later date?

Up to you guys to decide. Make your views known on the CFD linked from Category:Scoto-Norman Clans, and/or also discuss here. CFD is likely to close in a week's time. -- Jheald 23:52, 12 February 2006 (UTC).

[edit] Status?

Hey, just checking in here. This WikiProject seems to have no communication; I've no idea if anyone's even working on other clan pages. So I invite you to list here what you're working on as far as this project goes. I also want to see how many people are still actively interested in this project still. Canaen 19:08, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

  • Canaen: I'm working on Clan Fraser pages, basically everything in [[Category:Clan Fraser]]. Canaen 19:08, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Nfras: I'm working on getting an entry for every recognised clan by the end of the year, working from 'A' down. If I can get 4 a month done I'll be happy. Just had an operation which has left me out of the picture for a couple of weeks but hopefully will get an entry added today. (Nfras 00:17, 21 April 2006 (UTC))
  • Lianachan: I have not touched any clan pages at all. External pressures are ensuring that my wiki editing remains just the odd tidy and flesh out. So - actively interested? You bet. Actively contributing to the project, I'm afraid not. Lianachan 22:57, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Ram-Man: I removed myself from the list. I can only claim to have some interest, but don't forsee having any time... perhaps ever. So I'll still perhaps look here from time to time. Ram-Man 17:02, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Kathryn NicDhàna: I have only just discovered this page. I'm not going to commit to any level of workload at this juncture, but will probably drop back in and add to pages when I have time and relevant information. I *might* commit to starting pages for my ancestral clanns, but we'll see how my schedule goes. --Kathryn NicDhàna 07:24, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
I think that that's the way we've all done it, Kathryn. This wikiproject has never been hugely active or community-minded. It's more of a template and a resource for people who want to do their own clan in a reasonably standard way. I suppose we could go through all the clan articles in WP ruthlessly standardising them to match our template but I don't think that any of us are particularly in favour of doing that, so it hasn't been done. -- Derek Ross | Talk 06:16, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Template:Clan stub

I've created the following stub for use with Scottish clans and related articles. You can use it by putting {{Clan stub}} at the bottom of an article. Hopefully this will help facilitate not only the organizing of Scottish clans, but also the construction, as we'll be able to see which ones desire more attention than others. Granted, right now it seems more will be on the stub list than not. Image:Icons-flag-scotland.png Canæn Image:Icons-flag-scotland.png 19:58, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Template is now {{Scotland-clan-stub}} OzLawyer 21:13, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Lord Lovat

Hiya. If anyone reads this, and wants to help out the legacy of a Clan, please take a stroll over to Lord Lovat. There's a tiff developing over the numbering of the Lords Lovat. I'd like it if y'all would take a gander at the arguments, and give your opinions. Image:Icons-flag-scotland.png Canæn Image:Icons-flag-scotland.png 06:36, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia:WikiProject Scotland

Since the coming of WP Scotland, is there any precedent for putting WP Clans of Scotland under the scope of WP Scotland? Image:Icons-flag-scotland.png Canæn Image:Icons-flag-scotland.png 23:26, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Project directory

Hello. The WikiProject Council has recently updated the Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Directory. This new directory includes a variety of categories and subcategories which will, with luck, potentially draw new members to the projects who are interested in those specific subjects. Please review the directory and make any changes to the entries for your project that you see fit. There is also a directory of portals, at User:B2T2/Portal, listing all the existing portals. Feel free to add any of them to the portals or comments section of your entries in the directory. The three columns regarding assessment, peer review, and collaboration are included in the directory for both the use of the projects themselves and for that of others. Having such departments will allow a project to more quickly and easily identify its most important articles and its articles in greatest need of improvement. If you have not already done so, please consider whether your project would benefit from having departments which deal in these matters. It is my hope that all the changes to the directory can be finished by the first of next month. Please feel free to make any changes you see fit to the entries for your project before then. If you should have any questions regarding this matter, please do not hesitate to contact me. Thank you. B2T2 17:36, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Clan MacEwan

Currently deciding on best form of name to use. I think most of the societies officially use "Macewan" or "MacEwan", though at least two that I know of have used "Ewen". I think "Macewan" is the form I've seen used by most of the tartan manufacturers. I've started brainstorming at User:KathrynNicDhàna/Clan MacEwan, but may be slow to complete this. --Kathryn NicDhàna 03:42, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia Day Awards

Hello, all. It was initially my hope to try to have this done as part of Esperanza's proposal for an appreciation week to end on Wikipedia Day, January 15. However, several people have once again proposed the entirety of Esperanza for deletion, so that might not work. It was the intention of the Appreciation Week proposal to set aside a given time when the various individuals who have made significant, valuable contributions to the encyclopedia would be recognized and honored. I believe that, with some effort, this could still be done. My proposal is to, with luck, try to organize the various WikiProjects and other entities of wikipedia to take part in a larger celebrartion of its contributors to take place in January, probably beginning January 15, 2007. I have created yet another new subpage for myself (a weakness of mine, I'm afraid) at User talk:Badbilltucker/Appreciation Week where I would greatly appreciate any indications from the members of this project as to whether and how they might be willing and/or able to assist in recognizing the contributions of our editors. Thank you for your attention. Badbilltucker 21:14, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Derbhfine

Given Lyon Court's procedure for forming Scottish clans, involving calling a derbhfine to elect a Chief, I think it would be appropriate to begin a derbhfine article, if anyone is interested...maybe discussing other meanings of the word as well as its context in the "election" of a Chief? Isoxyl 21:11, 25 January 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Template for members to join this Project needed

I used the usual conventions of {{User WikiProject Clans_of_Scotland}} and {{User WP Clans_of_Scotland}}and nothing happened, so is this project up and running so people can join etc? petedavo 08:00, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Now working. Orderinchaos 11:25, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Redlinks

It seem a bit untidy to have templates under construction on the main page. Good luck with the project. Fred 10:47, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Template: Clan Infobox

Just browsing by and I wanted to contribute to this project as I am myself of Scottish descent. I see the creation of an infobox of high priority and I will work towards this goal using the one on the Clan_Fraser page as an example. Regards, JE.at.UWOU|T 18:40, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Do you mean like Template:Scottish Clan? Or something different? Isoxyl 20:47, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
That's the one I used all right. Image:Icons-flag-scotland.png Canæn Image:Icons-flag-scotland.png 06:01, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Clan Fraser

Hello everyone, as some of you may have noticed, I've basically written the Clan Fraser article all by me lonesome (that's actually true; I would avoid claiming it if I could), and I would love some input as to how I (or others!) could improve the article. I wonder if I should go about this by requesting a Peer Review? I'm completely knew at actually attempting to gain status (sush as GA or FA) for articles, and I'd love whatever input I can get from y'all knowledgeable and generous fellow Scots. Image:Icons-flag-scotland.png Canæn Image:Icons-flag-scotland.png 06:01, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

I added a fair bit to the Clan Fraser page about the Jacobite risings including the Battle of Glenshiel in 1719 and the events in Inverness in 1715. 195.137.109.177 14:14, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
Wonderful! Image:Icons-flag-scotland.png Canæn Image:Icons-flag-scotland.png 06:14, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Clan Douglas

There's an argument brewing over at Clan Douglas over whether the article should be named Clan Douglas or House of Douglas. Opinions are sought from the community. Nfras 23:45, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Added my bit.petedavo 03:45, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

copied from Talk:Clan Douglas

[edit] Momento

If petedavo had cared to read the above, regarding the OED definition of "house" here, or that of dynasty here,then perhaps he would not be so confused. The history of the House of Douglas is a mirror of that of the Kingdom of Scotland, it does not require a regnal seat to qualify for the accolade of a "regnal" style. If one were to read Froissart, there is ample testament to the Noble and Puissant Princes that have been so styled from the 14th century, of both Douglas and Angus lines. In the later Middle Ages and Early Modern period members were the Power brokers of Scotland. The history of the chiefs of this house, and their cadets is enormously notable within medieval and early modern Scots history, and while the aspirations of the contemporary N. American organisations such as the CDSNA are maybe to be encouraged, they do not have a monopoly on real fact. The House of Douglas is not and was not a 'Clan', they were not Gaels, they may be referred to informally as a 'clan', a parallel differentiation can be made between the Proper and common nouns, 'Conservative' and 'conservative'. This from the 9th living heir male in direct line from William I, Lord of Douglas . Brendandh 18:42, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Furthermore, if one were to read any published and accredited experts on the subject, Michael Brown (historian), Herbert Maxwell, Gordon Donaldson, James Balfour Paul, G. W. S. Barrow to name a few, there is no mention of Clan Douglas. This is purely an invention of the diaspora during the late 19th/20th centuries, as can be attested by the amount of non-UK sites using the erroneous term. If a 'Clan Douglas' (as with others such as 'Clan Home', 'Clan Bruce', 'Clan Kerr', 'Clan Scott' etc.), article is to be correct, it should reflect the history of that diaspora since going hence from these shores, and not impose reverse Cultural imperialism on the non Gaelic families of Scotland. Brendandh 20:20, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] July 2007 - Update

Is it possible to have a bit of a roll call on who's still contributing to the Project and maybe a list of work that needs to be done and things we can improve on? There's been great work on getting an entry for all recognised clans and many armigerous clans have been added and given entries (I haven't been very active but it was one of my goals to get an entry on every recognised clan by the end of last year). Apart from the continual improvement on those is there anything that needs a major reworking or work starting on? Nfras 02:57, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

  1. I've been working on the Clan Fraser article, trying to get it to FA. I requested copyediting from two editors recently. One decided the article was just fine, the other started editing, then stopped for several weeks, while insisting he was not done with it. Any assistance would be appreciated in pushing this article to FA. Image:Icons-flag-scotland.png Canæn Image:Icons-flag-scotland.png 05:56, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
Are there any other clan pages close to being Good article candidates or Featured article candidates?--Celtus 09:38, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
I originally started the Clan MacThomas article, but stopped work on it when I took an extended wikibreak this past year. I see some others have since added to/subtracted from it (some for the better, some for the worse). Any help would be appreciated, especially in the area of getting promoted to GA status.--William Thweatt Talk | Contribs 21:09, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Ambition?

Hello team,

I've just joined the project. The main project page is a little bleak, and I'm struggling to see any project aims, examples of successes or any guidelines. Simillarly, the talk page hasn't been touched for a few months - are we still active? Any plans for the short-to-mid term for the project? -- Jza84 · (talk) 12:03, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

OK, just woke up. I'd been padding out clan Davidson after I had added a famous American General to the name page.
Other than that, I can't see much collaboration going on, so I don't know if anyone wants to make up those fancy templates for this project that show requested articles, to expand articles, to do list, etcetera. It might be an avenue worth exploring. Canaen is watching this page, so I'm sure you'll prique his interest with your enthusiasm.Petedavo talk contributions 21:13, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
Hi, i've basically just been picking and poking at a few articles.--Celtus (talk) 07:53, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
OK, I've made a few changes to the main page, as well as created our own patchwork tartan logo (if people don't like it I can try something else?). I think this will help make the project more attractive to potential participants as well as make our image more proffessional. I've created a Template:WikiProject Clans of Scotland project banner so we can start bagging and tagging what's in our project's remit. I could do with a hand setting up the assessment system, and we might want a bot to run through some of the categories and add this banner automatically.
I don't want to take over (in the slightest), and I don't have much idea where people would like to take the project and what it's main priorities are so the more input here the better! Hope this is well recieved! -- Jza84 · (talk) 14:07, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
It's a start, and a good one at that, thanks. Petedavo talk contributions 15:29, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
OK, I've taught myself how to set up the assessment system and got it up and running for us! I've also made a request for a bot to run through Category:Scottish clans and tag all of the article talk pages with our project banner ([1]). Still lots to do here, but hopefully this helps! -- Jza84 · (talk) 15:21, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
Good job! The mainpage looks a lot better now, and the logo is bright and eye catching. I guess i'll have to do some reading on wiki projects and assessing articles.--Celtus (talk) 06:01, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
I just don't want to see the project become inactive or obsolete. That would be a real shame for such an interesting topic.... Hopefully the project banner will stimulate some new interest and users for us, if nothing else!.... We have around 450 articles within our remit according to the project banner bot. However, 390 of them, in Category:Unassessed Clans of Scotland articles, don't seem to be being picked up by the assessment bot. The category/assessment system is my first and I've probably done something wrong somewhere. Anybody familliar with this and able to fix this? I can't work it out. -- Jza84 · (talk) 13:19, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Related WikiProject: Anthroponymy

By the nature of the scope of Wikipedia:WikiProject Anthroponymy, there is overlap between WP Anthroponymy and WP Clans of Scotland, as the origin of Scottish surnames or given names sometimes rests with Clan history. We have noted WP Clans of Scotland as a related WikiProject on our main page and I am wondering if you would be interested in doing the same on your main page.

  • This was broached to WP Anthroponymy several days ago (23 Jan); see talk page section.
  • An example of a "co-branded" article: MacColl

Thank you for considering this proposal. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 11:53, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Makes sense to me, i think both projects naturally mesh together.--Celtus (talk) 05:52, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] DYK? candidate

This actually is an example of co-branding discussed directly above. I edited Taylor and Taylor (surname) on 2/2/2008 on behalf of the Anthroponymy project, and came across Taylor (name) (now Taylor sept), an article about a Clan Cameron sept and its namebearer, (2/3/2008 DYK? selfnom Donald Cameron ('Taillear Dubh na Tuaighe'). I put the Scottish Clans project template on Donald's Talk page and might add the Anthroponymy project template. Any comments here and/or on the DYK? candidate page would be appreciated. Also, as I'm not a subject-matter expert, your improvement of Donald's page or the Taylor sept page are also welcome. Thanks. Rosiestep (talk) 22:49, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Nice job Rosie!--Celtus (talk) 09:36, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
Yes, nice job. I do think that Taylor sept would make a good DYK, with the DYK statement perhaps drawn from the opening line of the article: "Taylor is a sept ("branch") of Clan Cameron, a Scottish clan. Present day members of the Taylor sept hold the Scottish surname Taylor." --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 11:42, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks:) Both articles were interesting research. As for Taylor sept as a DYK? candidate, in it's current form, it fails to meet DKY? criteria for articles created >5 days ago: "5-fold expansion within 5 days". I'm going to look for 19th century, 20th century, and present-day info on the sept next time I'm at the library; maybe there will be enough additional material to qualify Taylor sept on another day. Cheers Rosiestep (talk) 16:42, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

FYI update: Donald Cameron ('Taillear Dubh na Tuaighe') of Taylor sept Clan Cameron appeared on DYK? 2/7/2008. Rosiestep (talk) 21:02, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Clan Chiefs suggestion

Hi there, I like reading and writing about Scottish clan history. Just a suggestion but when you read a published book about a clan the history is normally put into chapters under the name of the clan chief of that time. It might be a good idea to add a list of clan chiefs in a table from which articles relating to the history can be written. Some articles already have them including: Clan MacLeod, Clan MacLean, Clan Munro, Clan Ross and Clan Cameron. QuintusPetillius (talk) 18:31, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Clan Grierson

This clan needs an article, looks like was deleted in December.--Celtus (talk) 09:33, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Done, though very stubbish.--Celtus (talk) 08:57, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Clan, Sept or family?

What is the difference? - Kittybrewster ☎ 10:13, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

The words 'clan' and 'family' are both used to mean the same thing. Septs are supposed to be families that relied upon a particular chief and his clan, or were absorbed into a particular clan but retained some sort of identity - like their own surname (so septs are supposed to consider the chief of another name as their chief). You can read what the Lyon Court website says about clans [2].--Celtus (talk) 07:32, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
The link is not working. Presumably it would say that clan is highland and family is lowland. - Kittybrewster ☎ 16:45, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
No it doesn't say that. It just mentions how families and clans are considered the same thing, and that Scottish clans are noble communities. This is what Sir Crispin Agnew, 11th Baronet has to say about lowland clans - [3]. "There is now a belief that clans are Highland and families are Lowland but this is really a development of the Victorian era. In an Act of Parliament of 1597 we have the description of the "Chiftanis and chieffis of all clannis...duelland in the hielands or bordouris" thus using the word clan to describe both Highland and Lowland families." The Standing Council of Scottish Chiefs website [4] lists all recognised clans as clans.--Celtus (talk) 08:30, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Sinclair userbox

This user is of the Clan Sinclair, a Scoto-Norman clan.
"Revela Domino opera tua."









Nice, i think i once saw another clan userbox - but i can't find it at Wikipedia:Userboxes/Life now.--Celtus (talk) 08:40, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
EDIT, Thanks Celtus! Just added the Latin motto. :) it means Commit thy work to God...and im not even christian lol, but i love latin obviously so i stuck it in. ΤΕΡΡΑΣΙΔΙΩΣ(Ταλκ) 16:21, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
I've a couple of clan userboxes on my page, but they're self made (out of frustration!). --Jza84 |  Talk  16:27, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia:Conflict of interest

Just to let the community be aware of the possible Wikipedia:Conflict of interest in my edits of Clan Brodie. I do not think that my edits constitute a Wikipedia:Conflict of interest, but i think my interest should at the very least be notified to the community. see Talk:Clan Brodie for a summary of the conflict.Czar Brodie (talk) 15:56, 8 June 2008 (UTC). p.s. please advise.

Hi Czar Brodie. I think it shows good faith to state your interest in the article. Though, i think by definition there is a conflict of interest if a clan chief heavily edits his/her clan article. How could someone be any closer to the subject of a clan article than a chief, and who else has a higher stake in a clan than a chief? That said i think you have strengthened the article with your additions. And i can understand how any Brodie would want to edit, add to, and work to fix a dubious Clan Brodie article. This quote is from Wikipedia:Conflict_of_interest#What_is_a_conflict_of_interest.3F: "If you do write an article on an area in which you are personally involved, be sure to write in a neutral tone and cite reliable, third-party published sources, and beware of unintentional bias". Welcome to the project.--Celtus (talk) 03:47, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
I agree with Celtus. There is improvement that can be made to the article but looking back at the history I think your edits have been wholly positive. There is certainly a conflict of interest here but you are being open about it. There has been at least one case of another senior clan member editing a clan site without declaring a conflict of interest. Given that you have made everyone aware of your COI I don't see a problem with continued editing of the article following the guidelines Celtus has quoted. (Nfras (talk) 12:34, 10 June 2008 (UTC))
Probably a case of WP:IAR here. Certainly I also admire the clarity and communication, which ensures good faith from my perspective. --Jza84 |  Talk  12:37, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
Thanking you all for your reviewing my case. Thanking you all for reading the article. I note your conclusions. Never the less I will take great care in my editing. If a future problem does arise, I'll post the matter on these pages.Czar Brodie (talk) 16:32, 11 June 2008 (UTC)