Talk:Ulster Scots people

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[edit] Samuel Neilson

I have edited Samuel Neilson, a Scots-Irish contemporary of Thompson and a founding father of the United Irishmen, remarked just prior to the Act of Union, "I see a union is determined on between Great Britain and Ireland. I am glad of it." Neilson accepted the Act of Union without shedding his sense of Irishness. He, like many other members of the Society of United Irishmen, became Irish Unionists because they saw in the Union an end to the corrupt Ascendancy-based Dublin Government and a chance for their Catholic brothers to achieve Catholic Emancipation, which the Anglican Parliament in Dublin had resisted for decades

for the following reasons;

--- Neilson was a prisoner of the British from 1798-1802 when he was released. He emigrated to the US upon release and died there in 1803 so he can by no stretch of the imagination be said to have become an "Irish Unionist".

---What proof is there that many United Irishmen became Unionists, some perhaps but "many"? To survive an accomodation was made such as at the Treaty of Kilmainham but this could hardly be regarded as an embrace of Union with the British Crown. Don't forget Protestant rebels such as Robert Emment, Thomas Russell, James Hope, all United Irishmen, all republicans until the day they died like many of theit co-religionists.

Some of the information in this article needs to be moved to Scots-Irish Americans. -- Fingers-of-Pyrex 23:20, 2005 May 13 (UTC)


Aughavey 7 July 2005 16:12 (UTC) Well for starters the United Irishmen were largely founded by Presbyterians. Look at the demographic of Irish / Ulster Presbyterians today and they are nearly all Unionists. They rebelled in 1798 because the penal laws were very hard on Presbyterians banning them from preaching, holding official office, conducting marriages etc. Perhaps I should have said many Presbyterian United Irishmen became Unionists. Francis Joy founded the Belfast Newsletter in 1737, a relative of United Irishman Henry Joy McCracken. The Belfast Newsletter is now a staunchly Unionist newspaper. The United Irishmen had some difficulties because whilst it was founded on the principles of true Republicanism it eventually merged with the Catholic "Defenders" group whose oath swore to "quell the nation of heresy", ie Protestantism.

--Damnbutter 15:29, 31 January 2006 (UTC) I think that the real difficulties the United Irish had were to do with the brutal campaign of suppression directed against it's supporters of all faiths rather than any internal religous strain beteen the members, there is little or no proof of this despite what Government propoganda of the time would have people believe. There is no shortage of examples of Protestants who fought on as republicans post 1801. Can you give more than the one contested example of United Irish of any religion who became genuine loyalists?

I make the point as, you are using one unsubstantiated quote to argue that most Presbyterian republicans became loyalist because of union with the British crown-this makes no sense. There examples of some Presbyterian republican influences surviving until at least the early 20th century. Presbyterians were no longer excluded from the corridors of power following Act of union, as Catholics were and it was this deliberatly sectarian "divide and rule" policy which successfully reconciled Presbyterians to British rule - not any sudden mass conversion of identity from Irish to British - this came gradually.

[edit] Ulster-Scots same as Anglo-Irish?

I somehow to go the Ulster-Scots in Canada listings off of a link from a British Columbia politician (can't remember who - A.C. Elliott maybe - 4th Premier of British Columbia?). There are a number of distinguished gentlemen in the history of the province who are of what was called "Anglo-Irish"; one was Chartres Brew, who was the first Chief Constable of the Colony and the founder of the British Columbia Provincial Police; he was in the Royal Irish Constabulary prior to being assigned to BC; I gather that's not very likely a Catholic sort of Irish position; but it could be he was CoE rather than Presbyterian? I don't know at this point and will have to read up some before writing his biography for wikipedia. But when I do, does he qualify as Ulster-Scots or is there an Anglo-Irish designation that's different?Skookum1 05:20, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

These hyphenated definitions can be confusing, but I believe that they are not the same thing. It is my understanding that Anglo-Irish would be the (mainly protestant) community in The Pale, and in Ireland in general, who emigrated from England, from around the reign of Henry VIII of England (who made himself also King of Ireland) until Irish independence. Many descendants of these people would have subsequently become notable people in the colonies and US.
Compare with the term Anglo-Scot, which confusingly denotes a person of Scottish origin who has settled in England (should it not logically be something like Scoto-Anglo?). I do not know what a person originating in England and settled in Scotland would be: nowadays they are sometimes simply referred to as New Scots, but that includes all new Scots, not just ones from england, eg: Italian-Scots, Polish-Scots, Asian-Scots, Chinese-Scots; all are New Scots.
Ulster-Scots are (mainly protestant) people of Scottish origin who settled in the northern bit of Ireland over hundreds of years.
These hyphenations are often illogical.--Mais oui! 09:12, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
Well how come both the culture and "language" are well documented in the 18th and 19th centuries? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.135.254.39 (talk • contribs) .


The Anglo-Irish were an eighteenth and nineteenth century phenomenon. The community in the Pale was entirely different being as it was from the original Norman invasion of Ireland. The nearest this latter community got to an "Anglo" definition was from the 1580s, when it began to describe itself as the Old English community. I hope this clarifies things somewhat. 193.1.172.138 23:58, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Skookum1:"he was in the Royal Irish Constabulary prior to being assigned to BC; I gather that's not very likely a Catholic sort of Irish position;"

On the contrary, the Royal Irish Constabulary had, I believe, a substantial number of Roman Catholics in it. I remember looking at the records in the Public Records Office of Northern Ireland for the RIC police station in Carrickfergus circa early 1900s, and noting that seemingly a majority of RIC members there were marked as being Catholic.. in a town which has a huge Protestant majority.

[edit] Ulster Scots

A lot of people seem to think that Ulster Scots is a made up culture to make up for unionists lack of history. Is this true?


I think that these people that you speak of, who think that we Ulster Scots don't really exist are ignorant and verging on bigotry. I'm sure that when people say that my culture doesn't exist they are pushing some Irish Nationalist agenda.

- Batratcathat

Well a lot of people see Ulster-Scots culture being overly emphasized by the unionist community, in recent years, in an attempt to create an alternative nationality to being Irish. That's the perception anyways.

-- Dumme kopf

Some mention should be made of the revivalist nature of the Ulster Scots movement. The fact that the movement has only existed for around ten-15 years does lead credence to nationalist claims of the language being made up.

  • The Ulster-Scots language/dialect (call it what you will) is certainly not an artificial creation. It is used daily by both communities in Ulster. However since the 1980's increasing numbers of Unionists/Loyalists have attempted to promote the dialect perhaps to stress Ulster's separateness from the rest of Ireland. Prior to this in the 20th Century written Ulster-Scots had almost dissappeared or existed only in humourous guides to "Norn Iron"(Northern Ireland) dialect.
  • There is a rich Ulster-Scots literature dating back to the 18th and 19th Centuries that includes poetry and novels. However, there is a significant break for most of the 20th Century. (doopa nov 2007)
  • Regarding culture the marching bands are a feature of Ulster life and both communities have (often rival) bands. Many Orange tunes played by the Protestant/Unionist/Loyalist bands are derived from old Scots tunes, as well as Irish tunes.
  • The Lambeg drum is an instrument unique to Ulster. It is now played almost exclusively by the Protestant community and so would have a genuine claim to being an example of Ulster-Scots culture, and a very loud one at that!
  • The tradition of drawing political/cultural murals on the gable walls of Belfast houses was also started by the Protestant community in the early 20th Century, nowadays however the Protestant murals are mostly concerned with para-militaries.
  • Association Football is also a very important part of Ulster-Scots culture. Early forms of football were first introduced to Ireland in the Hamilton/Montgomery Scots settlement of Ulster in 1606. Most Ulster Protestants support the Scottish team Glasgow Rangers while Ulster Catholics support Glasgow Celtic.(Stephen, May 2007)

[edit] A Nation?

Might it be more apt and helpful to describe groups like the Copts and the Ulster-Scots as national, ethnic, sub-cultural, communal or sectarian groups within their respective societies? Which is more precise and neutral? //Big Adamsky 19:52, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Culture? Language?

Ulster Scots is not a true culture or language. It was invented by politicians during anglo-irish agreements. Ulster-Scots is a dialect, or ignorance of the English language in it's pure form. This should not be encouraged in schools as children need to be literate! Many of the N.Ireland population are marginalised by its use.

  • This makes me angry at the ignorance and intollerance of the nationalist movement in Ireland who want to see everything visably British or Scottish removed and Ireland somehow become a homogenous nation of gaelic speaking celts. Ulster Scots as a language decends from Scots which was used as the official language of Scotland before the act of union with England so to say Scots is not a language is factually incorrect and to have such hatrid of a culture which may or may not be perceived as Protestant is akin to racism.


Did this guy say anything about being a Nationalist? No he didn't. Secondly he does have somewhat of a point. Ullans is not a language. At it's most it is a dialect of the Scottish way of speaking English, transplanted into Ireland and combined with the Irish way of speaking English and a little bit of Irish thrown in. At it's most it is a different dialect. Language, I think not.

-- Dumme kopf

  • Quote from above- "a dialect or ignorance of the English language in it's pure form.". Are you some sort of language rascist or just an oul gaunch? I am perfectly happy with Ulster-Scots being classified as a dialect but it is NOT an artificial creation and it is spoken daily by both communities in Ulster. Do you not feel that our distinctive local words and expressions should be preserved, or should we all speak like the Queen? (Stephen, May 2007)

I'm siding with the view that Ulster-Scots simply doesn't exist. The creation of Ulster-Scots in the past 30 years was a recognizing of the lack of identity for a large part of Northern Ireland as other then that as English/ Scottish settlers living in Ireland, and the attempt at forging a separate identity from the Irish culture/ identity (something to do with potatoes and priests I understand?!?!.) There is a strong argument that all these Ulster-Scots articles should be moved to some fictional section on wikipedia. Itsmjlynch 11:49, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "the semi-official flag for Northern Ireland"

Paragraph one notes "Ulster-Scots generally eschew being labeled "Celtic" but often identify themselves with England instead, and this is reflected in the design of the semi-official flag for Northern Ireland, which is based on the Cross of Saint George. " - can somebody provide a link to this "semi-official flag for Northern Ireland" ?

The phrasing used in the text seems rather vague and useless, can somebody clarify this section? I am assuming it's disguising some sensitive politics?(MarkG)

  • I think that this needs to be changed in favour of more explanation, or being dropped. Lowland Scots are of the same non-Celtic linguistic heritage as Northumbrians, another group listed as providing heritage to Ulster-Scots. Enzedbrit 20:50, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Someone order a flag! There is a different flag for the 9-county province of Ulster but that is rarely recognised by Ulster-Scots.Afn 17:26, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

I suppose your talking about the Flag of Ulster. --Boothy443 | trácht ar 04:29, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
no idea! I have no idea what a "semi-official flag" is... I am guessing there is an "official flag", many "unofficial flags" and the original author of Paragraph 1 knows of a "semi-official flag" as well :-) (MarkG)
Enzedbrit: Many Lowlanders, like from Galloway, spoke Gaelic at this time.
  • The (since 1972) unofficial flag of Northern Ireland is the Ulster Banner. It could be described as semi-official as it is still used to represent sports teams from the six-counties.(Stephen, May 2007)

[edit] american presidents part belongs on Scots-Irish Americans page

how do you cut and paste on wikipedia? Mayumashu 03:01, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

actually, i see its already there. will edit it out of this page then Mayumashu 03:03, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

I think some mention of it belongs in this article. If there is no information about this here, I will re-add something about it. --Mal 16:49, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What, exactly, is the point of the flags?

What is the point of the flags?
  • It is mentioned in the article that thousands of Scots fled Scotland during a famine in the 1690's. Can someone please provide more information on this. It is the first time I have heard about this and it seams if it is true it has been somewhat airbrushed from my knowledge of the History of Ireland.
Re the famine, the Scottish borders were hit by a terrible famine in th 1690s, I'm not sure ofthe causes, buti t was certainly a big killer and caused the biggest single migration of Scots to Ulster, bigger in fact than the organised plantations. It was only after this influx that Presbyterians became the majority in Ulster. The interesting thing is that a lot of Scots saw Ulster as temporary staging post and many ofthem continued on to America in the early 18th century. I believe this phenomenon is now called "chain migration". I'll post some sources if you're interested.

Jdorney 10:46, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Non-Catholic?

I notice that this article now contains a lot of references to, and highlights specifically the relgious make-up of this group of peoples. Specifically it suggests that the Ulster-Scots are "non-Catholic". This could be considered incorrect, as many of them were actually catholic from a particular definition of the word (ie: 'universal'; 'Christian'): "Non-Roman Catholic" would be more correct/precise.

However, many Ulster-Scots were indeed Roman Catholic, though they were small in number comparitively speaking.

If nobody has any objections, I will copyedit this article to reflect that fact. --Mal 16:47, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

I fail to see the logic in saying that "some" ulster-scots were "roman" catholic. Most if not all were militantly protestant, holding all allegiance to the Church of Scotland (Prespteriyan) or The Church of England (Anglican). The American Scots-Irish are an example of this, and VERY suspicious of "Green" or Catholic Irish. They have been fighting on the border over this for centuries in Ireland over the "Orange" Ulsters and the southern "Green" catholic Irish. So yeah I would say I have an objection, Ulster scots were sent to work the plantation, militantly protestant, so much so that they went from Ulster after suffering religious persecution from the Catholic Irish to the United States (then the colonies). If you have any questions about the American Ulster Scots I suggest you read the book "Born Fighting" it should give you a better perspective on actual Ulster-Scots/American Scots Irish history and culture. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.66.16.116 (talk) 06:47, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

They suffered more persecution from the British penal laws than catholic Irish you clown. The fact that you use that historically inaccurate piece of crap "Born Fighting" as a reference tells us all we need to know about you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Misawaloveme (talk • contribs) 02:55, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

"Although population movement to and from the north-east of Ireland and the west of Scotland had been on-going since pre-historic times, a concentrated migration of Scots to Ulster occurred mainly during the 17th and 18th centuries. Prior to that the major Scottish immigration in the northern part of Ireland was composed of Gallowglass mercenary clans from the Scottish Highlands. The most notable of these were the MacDonnells, origimally, from the clan Donnell of Ireland and who managed to establish themselves in the north of what is now county Antrim over the course of the 16th century."

Read the Gallowglass were predominatly Catholic if not all of them were catholic and intermarriage was common with the Scots and the native Irish, Scottish surnames are common within the Catholic community as with Irish surnames in the Protestant community. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.213.30.155 (talk) 22:58, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Intermarriage

Shouldn't there be a section or at least somewhat of a discussion on the cultural intermingling and ethnic intermarriage that went on between the Scottish, Irish and English populations in Ulster?

And shouldn't there be at least some discussion of the degree of intermingling of the two populations both prior to and after the plantations. The argument for ethnicity surely rests upon the claim that the plantations created a separate and distinct population within ulster.

  • This should be discussed. The Plantations DID NOT immediately create a separate segregated Scots community in Ulster. The settlers and the natives lived alongside and in close proximity to eachother. This makes the colonisation of Ulster unique and goes someway to explaining why "the troubles" between the two communities lasted so long as the communities became segregated.
  • There was a lot of inter-breeding between Irish, Scots and English after the plantations which explains why people from the Catholic/nationalist/Irish tradition sometimes have settler surnames and people from the Prot./Unionist/British sometimes have Irish Gaelic surnames. The fact that there is no difference in accent or dialect between the two Ulster communities (but a difference between Ulster and the rest of Ireland) also shows that they have been living in close proximity and inter-mingling for many years.
  • I would say there is no longer any separate Ulster-Scots ethnic group, but there is certainly an Ulster-Scots dialect and culture which both communities in Ulster have a rightful claim to. Are Scousers and Geordies separate ethnic groups- I don't think so!(Stephen, May 2007)

[edit] External Links

It seems that someone decieded to quote ScotchIrish.net, a site that is rampant with historical and grammatical errors.

[edit] Culture

I've made a start on a separate culture heading - hopefully a place to put stuff about music and writing distinct to Ulster Scots. Though its difficult to see how some of this will be separate to Protestant/Loyalist culture but we'll see how it goes. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Doopa (talk • contribs) 18:47, 16 May 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Scotch-Irish Redirect

Isn't the term "Scotch-Irish" used to refer to all intermixes between Scot and Irish ethnic groups, not only those of Ulster or those in the American federation?--Whytecypress 22:07, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "related groups" info removed from infobox

For dedicated editors of this page: The "Related Groups" info was removed from all {{Infobox Ethnic group}} infoboxes. Comments may be left on the Ethnic groups talk page. Ling.Nut 23:25, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Intermingling and Intermarriage in Ulster

This is absolute rubbish. As a respectable academic, I can say that most of us agree that intermarriage between the Irish Catholics and the Protestant Community (Planters and Native Irish converts to Protestantism) just didn't happen. Whoever wrote that piece of rubbish he or she calls an informative piece should be ashamed. It sounds like bloody Irish Republican propaganda.

No pleased.

[edit] Lack of History

Respected academic? Give me a break.

That section cited several respected historians and authors. Merely because you disagree with it has no affect on it. It will remain.

[edit] Sign your postings

It is hard to take anything written here seriously if the posts are not at least "signed" with Wiki user-names for at least *some* accountability. Shoreranger 14:00, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Music

There's a contradiction between these two lines that I cannot figure out so don't want to change: "Protestant Scottish traditional music is usually informal and close-knit. The most obvious example of this type of cultural event is the marching bands. Here a formal and organised structure is more obvious."

Also, is the distinction beween venues for "Irish" and "Scotch-Irish" trad really that genuine? --sony-youthpléigh 07:52, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

This section as it stands seems to be both Original Research and wrong. I think it should be removed or rewritten including sources. Cooke (talk) 10:35, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Flag

Is Ulster Nation really the best flag to use? It's a flag design proposed by the small handfull of Ulster nationalists for an independent Northern Ireland and dates from the 1980s.

Wouldn't the Flag of Ulster: Flag of Ulster be a more appropriate flag for this article and others such as Scots-Irish American and individual articles detailing ancestry (e.g. Racial demographics of the United States#Majority group, Mississippi#Racial makeup and ancestry, North Carolina#Ancestry)? Timrollpickering 19:52, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

You can't just make up flags like this. What makes you think these articles need to have a flag anyway? --John 21:32, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
I agree flags get overused on Wikipedia but it may be more complicated to unflag those articles and numerous others to get the flags out. But Wikipedia:Don't overuse flags does specifically say:
http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/images/symbols/flags.htm those created by one political group or another in Northern Ireland]) must never be used more generally or broadly in Wikipedia.
What is the Flag of the Ulster Nation if not a specific creation, and one that's less than twenty years old, of one political group (the Ulster Independence Movement) and not a flag generally used for people of Ulster-Scots descent? And confusingly it's a flag for six county Ulster not nine county Ulster. Timrollpickering 22:39, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
That flag has nothing to do with Ulster-Scots, it was a flag used by a small extremist group wanting an Independent Northern Ireland, I don't think the group is even still active. I am going to remove it from the article.--padraig 09:21, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
I've gone through other articles listing Ulster-Scots/Scots-Irish Americans with tables and changed the flag to the Flag of Ulster as the best default. From what I can see the Ulster Nation flag now only appears on articles in the context of six county Ulster nationalism/independence. Timrollpickering 11:59, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Merge with Scots-Irish

I am proposing that this article be merged with Scots-Irish as they both deal with the same group of people, but under different names and from slightly different perspectives. However, I'd like to test the water first before putting any tamplates up. To keep discussion all in one place - but not meaning to propose which name to keep as the article title - I'd suggest it be discussed on Talk:Scots-Irish. --sony-youthpléigh 20:53, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

I myself would be more inclined to keep these seperate. They are, of course, clearly closely related folk, but the term does imply a certain distinction in the published realm. -- Jza84 · (talk) 13:03, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, I think of the Scotch-Irish as the descendents of Ulster Scots people who have emigrated to the USA. Therefore I'd vote to keep them separate. Cooke (talk) 10:37, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
The two are not an identical ethnic group. Both Ireland and North America were primary areas of resettlement for "inconvenient" people removed from the land by force. In America one has to consider immigrants of mixed Irish and Catholic Irish origin. Add mixed Scottish-Amerinds such as William Weatherford and the Afro-Celtic influence until the picture becomes even more complex. In middle America boundaries blurred and overlapped so that religious heritage became less relevant than ethnicity. By no means did all "Scotch-Irish" dwell in Ireland prior to arrival in America, nor were all the Irish who settled America of the Ulster Irish group. My 2 cents.Trilobitealive (talk) 21:51, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Infobox image

Hello page,

I'm looking at producing an image for the infobox akin to that in Scottish people, English people and French people amongst others, for which we need 6 - 8 notable Ulster-Scots to be nominated.

I'm thinking of James Nesbitt, Ian Paisley and James Craig, 1st Viscount Craigavon, but can anybody else suggest any others? Does any body object to these?... If people are going to suggest other names, can they please be mindful that there needs to be a free-to-use image of them already to work with. -- Jza84 · (talk) 13:32, 15 December 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Intermarriage

Both sides of my family are described as "Scotch-Irish" in some lines and it seems the single predominant ethnic group in my ancestry. There is an ongoing Y chromosome DNA study of my father's family name. I took part in this and the genetic markers matched family tradition and written documents: Scottish, English, and Irish. So someone at some point picked up native Irish genes. --Calypsoparakeet (talk) 01:09, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

All this talk of Ulster-Scots and Scots-Irish make my head spin.I was born and bred in Scotland with two Irish grandparents,If I decided to emigrate to the USA I certainly would not refer myself as Irish-Scots.Those "Ulster-scots" who emigrated to the US are surely just Irish,no matter their genes!--Jack forbes (talk) 21:44, 25 February 2008 (UTC)