Talk:Tenerife disaster

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 Tenerife disaster was a good article nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. Once these are addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.

Reviewed version: August 31, 2006
Other languages WikiProject Echo has identified Tenerife disaster as a foreign language featured article. You may be able to improve this article with information from the Dutch language Wikipedia.
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An event in this article is a March 27 selected anniversary (may be in HTML comment)

Is there really a need for "the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001 not taken into account." - Well, of coruse they're not taken into account, given they were not an accident?

  • Agreed. I have removed the comment. Lbbzman 12:29, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

--

What were the flight numbers of these planes? -- Zoe

This article sure reads like it was written for some other purpose than an encyclopedia. Ortolan88 sa

so the PanAm first pilot survived - what happened to him in the end? —Preceding unsigned comment added by PMA (talk • contribs) 09:47, 29 March 2003

I met him in a hotel lounge in Madrid, Spain in 1981. He had eyeglasses with lens like the bottom of pop bottels (a result of the accident of course). He said he saw the KLM plane approaching and was in shock - couldn't believe he had lived. For the rest of his life he is able to fly for free but will be effected for the rest of his life. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.49.99.96 (talk) 07:47, 31 December 2004

The top says this was the greatest plane disaster till Sept. 11, 2001; the bottom says this was the greatest plane disaster till 1996... which is it? -- Chinju It was certainly the greatest plane accident. To me it is still the greatest plane disaster as well (and I am Dutch).

I believe the 'The Tenerife tower watched helplessly...' paragraph from the original article is totally false, based on this [http://www.panamair.org/Accidents/sectenerife.htm Secretary of Aviation Report]. According to that, the tower continued handling other planes and waiting for a reply from the Pan Am, not knowing anything was wrong until they got reports of a fire on the field from other planes and u are quite right, Greg. (And welcome to the 'pedia.) It's on my "to-do" list - but that list is (at last count) 10,497 items long, and growing by the day. Why not hop in and do it yourself? What's the worst that can happen? Someone crosses out what you wrote and you feel silly? Don't worry about it! be bold in updating pages.) -- Tannin 12:15, 17 Sep 2003 (UTC)

There is something hazy about the following snip from the page

"Air traffic control gave the KLM plane an airways clearance, signifying that the way was clear for the aircraft once it was in the air, however, the KLM plane mistakenly thought they had heard the tower grant them permission for the take off itself.. "

ATC gave KLM clearance for what? To proceed to the takeoff /hold area? Does the word it apply to the Pan Am plane? If it does then we should say so to make it clear. Moriori 03:05, Dec 4, 2003 (UTC)

By airway clearance they are refering to an IFR Clearance. Which involves checking with all the different controllers monitoring the airspaces through which an aircraft will be passing to verify flying a particular course at this given altitude will allow sufficent seperation from other aircraft. This is usually received through clearance delivery. Prior to taking off the tower will issue a clearance to takeoff, which involves instructions to fly a heading to some fix. Usually ending with "as filed" so long as the IFR flight plan has not been amended. None of these clearances however are a clearance to take-off. Only a clearance to fly a particular route. The haziness and confusion that you get by reading the CVR transcripts is believed to be a causual factor that lead to the take-off roll and forced takeoff of the KLM aircraft, which inevitably led to the accident. The confusion is also due to the use of non-standard phraseology. i5xswipe —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.142.56.201 (talk)

It is the KLM plane, ATC told them that the route was clear, once they had been given permission to take off. (Barry m 03:53, 14 January 2006 (UTC))

Contents

[edit] Speculations

Under the 'Speculations' section - both of these statements about van Zanten cannot be true at the same time!

  1. Captain van Zanten's failure to confirm instructions from the tower. The flight was one of his first after spending six months training new pilots on a flight simulator. He may have suffered from 'training syndrome', having been in charge of everything at the simulator (including simulated ATC), and having been away from the real world of flying for extended periods.[1]
  2. The flight engineer's apparent hesitation to further challenge van Zanten, possibly because van Zanten was not only senior in rank, but also one of the most able and experienced pilots working for the airline.[1]

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.185.240.121 (talk) 16:48, 16 October 2007

Ah, think they can both be true... One can be highly experienced and well-regarded while still being out of touch. In addition, each suggestion is cited with a reliable source. Cheers, Ian Rose 23:02, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Needing Summary

Taken from article. Here's text of the Final radio & flight deck transmissions. This needs summary. KyuuA4 16:48, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Final radio & flight deck transmissions

These communications are taken from the cockpit voice recorders of both aircraft, as well as from the Tenerife control tower's tapes.

1705:22.0
PAN AM CAPTAIN That's two. [Captain Grubbs is identifying the second turn-off from the runway as the Pan Am continues to back-taxi]
1705:36.7
[KLM first officer completes pre-flight checklist. KLM 4805 is now at the end of the runway, in position for departure.]
1705:41.5
KLM FIRST OFFICER Wait a minute, we don't have an ATC clearance. [This statement is apparently a response to an advancing of the throttles in the KLM.]
KLM CAPTAIN Nee, dat weet ik, vraag maar. [No, I know that, ask for it.]
1705:44.8
KLM (RADIO) Uh, the KLM ... four eight zero five is now ready for take-off ... uh and we're waiting for our ATC clearance.
1705:53.4 - 1706:08.9
TENERIFE TOWER eight seven * zero five uh you are cleared to the Papa Beacon climb to and maintain flight level nine zero right turn after take-off proceed with heading zero four zero until intercepting the three two five radial from Las Palmas VOR.
1706:07.4
KLM CAPTAIN Yes.
1706:09.6 - 1706:17.8
KLM (RADIO) Ah roger, sir, we're cleared to the Papa Beacon flight level nine zero, right turn out zero four zero until intercepting the three two five and we're now (at take-off / uh..taking off).
1706:11.1
[KLM brakes released.]
1706:12.2
KLM CAPTAIN We gaan ... check thrust. [We're going ... check thrust].
1706:14.0
[Engine acceleration audible in KLM cockpit]
1706:18.19
TENERIFE TOWER OK.
1706:19.3
PAN AM (RADIO) No .. eh.[This message was not heard by the KLM crew due to a radio heterodyne.]
1706:20.08
TENERIFE TOWER Stand by for take-off, I will call you. [This message was not heard by the KLM crew due to a radio heterodyne.]
1706:20.3
PAN AM (RADIO) And we're still taxiing down the runway, the clipper one seven three six. [This message was not heard by the KLM crew due to a radio heterodyne.]
1706:19.39 - 1706:23.19
TENERIFE TOWER Roger alpha one seven three six report when runway clear.
1706:29.6
PAN AM (RADIO) OK, we'll report when we're clear.
1706:31.7
TENERIFE TOWER Thank you
1706:xx.x
PAN AM CAPTAIN Let's get the hell out of here.
1706:xx.x
PAN AM FIRST OFFICER Yeah, he's anxious, isn't he.
1706:xx.x
PAN AM FLT ENGR Yeah, after he held us for half an hour. Now he's in a rush.
1706:32.43
KLM FLT ENGR Is hij er niet af dan? [Is he not clear then?]
1706:34.1
KLM CAPTAIN Wat zeg je? [What do you say?]
1706:34.15
KLM UNKNOWN Yup.
1706:34.7
KLM FLT ENGR Is hij er niet af, die Pan American? [Is he not clear, that Pan American?]
1706:35.7
KLM CAPTAIN Jawel. [Oh yes. - emphatic]
1706:40.0
[Pan Am captain sees landing lights of KLM Boeing at approx. 700 m]
PAN AM CAPTAIN There he is ... look at him. Goddamn that son of a bitch is coming!
PAN AM FIRST OFFICER Get off! Get off! Get off!
1706:43.4
KLM FIRST OFFICER Vee-one.
1706:44.0
[PH-BUF (KLM 4805) started rotation.]
1706:47.4
KLM CAPTAIN [Exclamation/expletive]
1706:50
N736PA (Pan Am 1736) records sound of collision.

[edit] Worst Air Disaster

I saw that Discovery Channel or the History Channel dubbed this the Worst Air Disaster in Aviation History? Or something to that extent? I'm pretty sure it wasn't due to September 11th but it may have been the Worst Air Collision in Aviation History. Something like that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.174.17.208 (talk) 21:11, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

It's still considered the worst 'air disaster' given that that term is generally employed for describing aviation accidents. September 11 was not an accident. Cheers, Ian Rose 01:46, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Two 747s begin journeys uneventfully

this title sounds very unencyclopedic to me. Should be reversed asap. Remember- Neutral and objective articles. Not- like an adventure is going to happen. Therefore, I suggest placing a tag 'not in encyclopedic style' if this is not corrected. Marminnetje 18:03, 7 November 2007 (UTC) edit: to explain myself better: the article should not be written like it's a story. Now it is. What about 'terrorist bomb thead', why was this reversed. Marminnetje 18:04, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Absolutely. Actually, I'd already removed some of the story-like elements/headings after they were added in recently but apparently they made their way back in. Have now had another go at getting a more encyclopedic tone to the article. Cheers, Ian Rose 21:28, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, this article has a tendency to be adventurous and sensational from the beginning. I'll watch it now and then/ It's all those re-runs of NatGeo so-called documentaries i guess ^^ Marminnetje 19:22, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
"So called" documentaries? ALL documentaries are "so called" documentaries. Asa01 (talk) 19:00, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Last Stopover

Would Los Rodeos be considered the last stopover for the Pan Am and for the KLM? They technically "stopped over" there and were continuing to Las Palmas. --Vreddy92 (talk) 22:47, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] One survivor of KLM plane

How come the article mentions that all 234 passengers and 14 crew members died (see Collision section) but it also mentions that 1 person of the KLM plane survived ('Robina van Lanschot', last sentence in Collision section). The television program I saw yesterday also mentioned that there was 1 survivor of the KLM plane. - Simeon87 (talk) 11:38, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

I think the article is worded accurately. It says that van Lanschot "avoided the disaster" by not reboarding the plane, not that she "survived" the crash. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 11:50, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
Ok, that makes sense - Simeon87 (talk) 12:08, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Some remarks

1) In the intro, there's some information given about the Los Rodeos airport, i'd suggest moving it to miscellaneous .2) Where is the picture of the actual collision? It was a good picture and it was Certainly Fair use. And there was a few months ago, a new picture that was even better and I see it was removed again. Most pictures are Fair use if they are dedicated to the page, and have a low resolution, and have a good description. So, Why was it removed.Marminnetje (talk) 11:15, 27 April 2008 (UTC)