Talk:Tenerife disaster/Archive 1

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[edit] Canarian politics

Who were those Canary Islands separatists? The MPAIAC?

As far as I know the bombthreat came from the seperatist movement of ETA. BramvR

From poking around it was reported as Canarian separatists at the time. The acronym I found was "MIACA" but I could not determine what this stood for, or if it's the same as MPAIAC, or if there are translation difficulties. This may need to be resolved with a Nexis search. --Dhartung | Talk 10:37, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
I've checked some old info about the disaster. The bomb came from MPAIAC. AFAIK, ETA has never put a bomb at the Canary Islands (where I'm from)
Heimy 00:58, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

As I understand it, Air Traffic Control did give KLM permission to take off. Capt Van Zanten was an experienced pilot but had done most of his recent work in the simulator, so wasn't used to even asking permission and had begun his take-off run without it until reminded by another crew member. On being told 'you have permission to take off' he immediately put on full power and didn't listen to the rest of the message. Dbiv 14:25, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)

What exactly was the Pan Am plane doing? Was it taxiing after landing? The article didn't quite make it clear. Dukeofomnium 20:47, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Both aircraft where back-taxiing the active runway for takeoff, which in short means they were taxiing down the runway going in the opposite direction of the way you will takeoff using the same runway. This was to position the aircraft at the proper end of the runway to takeoff. They were back-taxiing because other aircraft where parked on the paralleling taxi-way. Back-taxiing however is not an uncommon practice. No aircraft should be taking off while another aircraft is on the runway. In this accident the KLM aircraft got to the end of the runway and turned around to takeoff and inevitably did so while the Pan American aircraft was still on the runway taxiing toward them. The Pan American aircraft was suppose to turn onto the paralleling taxiway before it did, but for unknown reasons they continued to back-taxi the runway toward the next exit to the taxi-way. I5xswipe —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.142.56.201 (talk)

I deleted the part saying the KLM misinterpreted the Tenerife towers instructions. I've clarified that part to imply what really happened - that an ATC clearance had been given, but for some reason the captain was convinced that this was also a takeoff clearance.

[edit] The PanAm pilot

In the AP newswire in 1977, Victor Grubbs, the pilot of the Pan Am jet at Tenerife, expected to return to flying. Does anyone know if he was able to? In 1981, he would have been 61, and thus a year past retirement age. I wonder if his eyesight was too damaged for him to have been able to fly again after the accident.

"Airplane manufacturers began installing equipment that helped planes see through fog." Sound fascinating! Can someone elaborate what equipment we are talking about?

[edit] Pan Am flight, take-off date?

The article says Pan Am flight 1736 took off On March 27 from LA. If the accident took place at around 5pm Spanish time on March 27, can that be true? 5pm Tenerife time is 4pm GMT. LA is GMT -8, so that means the crash occurred at 8am LA time on March 27. There is no way the plane could have reached Tenerife, and landed and refuelled, in this time. This page [1] says flight 1736 took off at 1.29am GMT, or 5.29pm LA time on March 26. This page [2] agrees, saying the flight departed LAX "late the previous afternoon]. Therefore I am changing this.

[edit] the aeroplanes

its probably just me but i wondered if anyone knew if both of the aeroplanes were boeing 747's, i cant seem to find out whether they are, it doesn't seem to be very clear, thanks anyway, ≈≈≈≈louise

Hi Louise,

Both planes were 747 Jumbo Jets. KLM flight 4805 was named Rhine River and PanAm flight 1736 went by the name of Clipper Victor.

Deborah

[edit] Fog equipment?

Airplane manufacturers began installing equipment that helped planes operate in fog.

The article should be specific: What equipment exactly? Tempshill 22:46, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

I do not know so i delete it. {{Marminnetje 13:06, 8 November 2005 (UTC)}}

The talk page isn't that long. If you go up a few you'll see someone has clarified it's infrared tech. It would be helpful if you could read the talk page perhaps? I agree, it should be included in the article but since it's in the talk page, no reason someone couldn't add it rather then asking again or deleting it... Nil Einne 18:35, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

The article also doesn't even mention the fog to begin with (a very significant factor in the accident, I recall), yet it's depicted in the image.Daniel Case 04:39, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

The article mentiones low clouds, which is actually fog.. for what I have read these low clouds, coming from the sea, can appear in no time at all on the airport. {{Marminnetje 20:03, 15 November 2005 (UTC)}} EDIT: 'During taxiing, low clouds had appeared, limiting the visual range to 1000 feet (approx. 300 meters).' I think the visual range is the most important factor here. {Marminnetje 20:11, 15 November 2005 (UTC)}

[edit] Standard/non-standard phrases

The causes of the incident claim one of them was the use of non-standard phrases. Later it is said standard phrases were developed and enforced as a result of this incident. If there was no such thing as standard phrases before this incident, this need to be clarified... Nil Einne 18:37, 5 December 2005 (UTC)


afaik, there were indeed standard phrases before the accident; in this case they were not strictly followed.. [quote: it is said standard phrases were developed and enforced as a result of this incident] I can't find that passage that in the article.{Marminnetje 03:30, 7 December 2005 (UTC)}

[edit] Broken Link

http://www.benjamins.com/jbp/series/LPLP/27-3/art/0002a.pdf results in a 404 error - does anyone know where the transcript might be found online? Bridesmill 16:17, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sensational additions

I've noticed that here are some contributors to the article, who seem to have the sole purpose of adding sensational content and/or links. I'd like to ask all Wiki editors to watch the page carefully, and remove the spam as needed, without hesitation. Thank you. (anynomous editor) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Marminnetje (talk • contribs) 18:48, 24 April 2006

Why sign anonymous when you're logged in? i added Template:Unsigned to your message. --80.63.213.182 14:54, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
because I Choose to. See it? Choise. We live (still) in a free world, dude Marminnetje 16:37, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] CVR recordings

Hello. On 1001crash.com's Tenerife crash page 5 and page 6, it is stated that the pilots said respectively "the son of a bitch is coming" and "oh shit". Is that correct? On this page it is not written. --80.63.213.182 14:45, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

I know the first expletive is true. Notice that in most CVR's expletive remarks are shown with [expletive], see expletive. Rightly so i.m.o. Marninnetje.

[edit] KLM Survivors

Is it true that all passengers of the KLM died? I just watched that documentary, Crash of the Century and it said that one of the passengers was left behind in the terminal. If this is true, then it means that there was one survivor. 203.215.116.181 00:56, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

A person not aboard the plane when it crashed is generally not considered as a survivor. Asa01 09:36, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] discovery doc

To me, not significant to the article. There are lots of documentaries made about the disaster. 'crash of the century' says it all. :D Marminnetje 19:45, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Failed GA

This article failed the GA noms due to lack of references. Might I also suggest using footnotes to cite your sources as well as transwiking the "Final radio transmissions" sections to Wikisource? If you have any questions feel free to contact me. Tarret 20:15, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Essentially all weve got is the CVR and the Accident reports. Finding Trusty, accurate references for the article will be most difficult. There are not a lot books written on this. And as time goes by finding trusty sources will be even more difficult. But, anyone who is dedicated to make footnotes, etc. , please proceed.

I'm pretty convinced the article is 70-80%correct. How can we protect the article from adding worthless content if no one is watching it?Marminnetje 16:56, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Airport location

In my opinion it is erroneous to state that Reina Sofia Airport aka Tenerife Sur was built because of the supposedly poor location of Los Rodeos aka Tenerife Norte. This may have been one of the factors, but surely just as important or more important was that when Los Rodeos was built only the northern part of the island where it is located was heavily populated. The South is infertile dry scrub and desert where the tourist resorts have only sprung up in recent decades. The Santa Cruz de Tenerife - La Laguna urban area next to Los Rodeos is still by far the largest conurbation on the island and when I saw it last weel Los Rodeos was still busy. Booshank 18:09, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Here are some points to consider!!!!!

1./ Why does the captain of the KLM flight refuel (55 tons) just prior to leaving after waiting for 4 hours on the tarmac? 2./ Why did the same captain clearly decide to take off without the towers permission? 3./ If the KLM jet never took on 55 tons of fuel would this disaster just be another near miss?

And what if there was no bomb threat? Things would go like planned. There was , most likely , a great stress on the KLM crew. Speculation is that the refuelling was done to save time. If nothing happened, it would be all fine and no one would mention it. It's no factor. So much factors that were against them. Duty time, weather, deviation, small airport, maybe some personal factors also. In this case this went just wrong. People generally like to blame just one side. Or a few persons. it's just not possible. Take a look at the other side: If the Pan Am crew had paid more attention as to what exit they took, and not joking in the cockpit, nothing would have happened. Marminnetje 14:19, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

The bomb threat is part of the reason why the planes were there in the first place but it in no way accounts for what happened on that runway. If KLM had refuelled earlier in the day it would have clearly beaten the fog that was rolling down the valley toward the airport (30 mins to refuel) which greatly reduced the visability for all. Yes the KLM flight was due back in europe to avoid a change of crew and putting up all the passengers in a hotel for the night. The capatin of KLM was worried that if they waited too long they would exceed duty time under a newly introduced KLM company policy. As far as the comment based on the Pan Am crew joikng around is nonsense. Pan Am as a company were responsible for paving the way for many of the crucial safety procedures and technologys that revolutionised the avaition industry. They invented the rest followed. At the end of the day you dont merge into traffic on a freeway in thick fog with your foot flat to the floor or do you?

[edit] Recent additions

' After the explosion of the terrorist bomb, the threat was contained and the authorities reopened the airport. ' this is confusing. Maybe could be changed to ' After the detonation of the terrorist bomb by the authorities, the threat was contained and the airport reopened. '(However, no sources provided). Secondly the addition of the Pan Am plane was a senior citizen charter - i remember this is correct. Is there are source for this. Marminnetje 18:44, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mistake

As I know there was at least 1 survivor from KLM flight ( beacuase he/she don't borded on )

See the "KLM survivors" section for why this isn't a mistake. Clipper471 22:27, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] KLM fuel edit

I can fully understand the fact that KLM fuelled more than needed at the airport.

It seems a fully logical, and sane, decision by the captain. I think the captain was not paranormal as to any accident, he was not aiming to cause any harm. He was doing the best he could for his company and his passengers.

Therefore -- I propose to delete it from the speculation section as to this date.(see my tag) Reason: it has nothing to do with the accident. If you obnject please state it here, otherwise it will be deleted , soon, and Permanent Marminnetje 19:40, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

The overfueling caused many events to happen.
1. When the KLM was refueling, the Pan Am 747 could not move out of the way, causing longer delays.
2. It's heavy weight meant that the pilot needed more runway length to successfully takeoff.
3. This extra amount of fuel created a large firey explosion.
Although this was not a direct factor of the accident, this contributed to the events that led up to the accident. Yes, the KLM pilot wanted save time by completing this flight before reaching his maximum flying time, but I don't understand how refueling early would save time. The plane does need to stop at Gran Canaria and deplane/enplane passengers + clean/service, right? Starcity ai 16:33, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Neutrality?

This article seems to point that it was the fault of the KLM plane. Where it says- KLM plane overfueled, KLM plane tried to take off w/o clearence from ATC, KLM plane used non-standard communications terms.

Is this neutral? Smith230 16:57, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Neutrality apart, this disaster is the child of gross miscalculations and errors of judgment by all the three concered (the Rodeos tower, Captain Grubbs and Captain van Zanten). It would be unfair to attribute the responsibility singularly to one party.Anil 01:53, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

  • In a way, there is much more study of the behaviour of the KLM captain than the behaviour of the Pan Am crew and/or the tower. Him being preoccupied by: Company regulations. Weather. He overfueled. He spent too much time on the simulator. He didn't listen to his co-pilot. He was an authority figure. I think the article is definately biased. I'd even suggest placing a tag on it. Maybe the speculations section is not a smart idea anymore. Heck, I created it! Marminnetje 20:39, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
The article is written correctly. It was the KLM captain that took off believing the Pan Am jet was somewhere else. The disaster is ultimately his fault. If he didn't take off the disaster would have been avoided. Fighting for Justice 20:43, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

As it was the KLM plane was the one to move on the runway, it is pretty easy to point the finger at Captain van Zanten. Poor guy! Anil 02:58, 14 January 2007 (UTC)


As it was the KLM plane was the one to move on the runway, it is pretty easy to point the finger at Captain van Zanten. Poor guy1 Anil 02:57, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't consider it pointing fingers at him, but you gotta call things for what they are. He made the mistake in assuming the Pan Am jet was not on the runway. He didn't listen to his co-pilot. He took off without permission and it caused the accident. Fighting for Justice 03:55, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

How do we react to the episode of Pan Am missing the third exist? To their lewd conversation in the cockpit? To the Spaniards in the tower who went ahead with opeating live planes on the runway amid a disasterous fog 61.1.250.72 07:25, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Simple there was dense fog and the Captain of the Pan Am jet missed it. It's a forgivable mistake. It didn't kill anyone. All the more reason to be cautious if you ask me. Captain Van Zanten proceeded to take off when he didn't have permission. He made the fatal mistake. You can't pussy foot around it, because of a lewd conversation. That's not what killed a bunch of people. Fighting for Justice 07:46, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
The speculations section is definately not neutral: it only takes in account the faults of the KLM crew and not the others.Marminnetje 10:40, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Regardless of questions of neutrality, the speculations section needs to be sourced, like any other - more so because it's controversial - otherwise it may as well be considered original research. I'll add some citations where I can find them, others might like to do the same. Cheers, Ian Rose 11:03, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Roger. I answer to your contentions in the affirmative, Ian. A good advice for anyone who is interested in actually digging out what really has happened on that fatal day Anil 18:17, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Some of you need to read this then Undue Weight. Wikipedia is suppose to be neutral, but it doesn't mean you have to include opposing viewpoints on a equal level to the prevailing viewpoint. Majority of the investigators blamed it on the KLM crew. Fighting for Justice 03:01, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
Quite correct. If the article mentioned nothing but the KLM crew's errors, then there would be a problem with its neutrality. That's not the case - see Probable Cause. As for the speculations, they're mostly cited now, reflecting the thoughts of a number of commentators. Cheers, Ian Rose 04:30, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
OK. The only thing that should be stressed is that there was a mistake from everyone concerend (may be in varying degrees, but a mistake in aviation environment, however small and minute it may seem, is so unforgiving, you should remember!). Not just only with Capt van Zanten.Anil 13:00, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

According to this article [3] there are witnesses who claim that there was a soccer game on in the tower. They had not come forward because of fear of the authorities, just a few years after the death of Franco.

[edit] KLM Advert with Captain Van Zanten's picture

Found the picture here [4]. I think it might add to the article. What do you guys think? The heading is quite freaky indeed... "KLM. From the people who made punctuality possible." Aratoda 05:54, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

I think the article has now too much pics. Too much pictures don't add but distract from the text. The crew picture that was added doesn't add anything at all but takes up space. The KLM ad might be ok in it's current small window. However, these new pics have no valid tags so they might be deleted amnyway. Marminnetje 16:07, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Agree the crew pic is too much and suggest we delete it. We may as well have a pic of the Pan-Am crew as well if we keep it and that'd be way over the top. However I think the KLM ad is useful (if a tad dark) and have just done a bit of rearranging in that section to place it better. Re. tags, I'd say the ad would be a safer bet to retain than the crew pic anyway. Cheers, Ian Rose 21:04, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] CVR transcript

There are some things in the CVR transcript that I have a problem with. For example, I understand the need to keep it consistent with the original accident reports, but the sentence "Is he not clear that Pan American?" is incorrect in terms of punctuation (it should be "Is he not clear, that Pan American?", especially when the original Dutch is written with a comma). Should this be corrected? Tony Myers 20:11, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

No, I think you are nitpicking. Besides, this is English Wikipedia, not Dutch. Fighting for Justice 06:38, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
That intra-cockpit communication was in DUTCH. It should be presented verbatim from (one of) the actual accident report(s), punctuation included. This confusion is another reason why the transcript needs a reference(s). The transcript should not be anglicized; if it was, it would read "Is the Pan Am not clear?" Lipsticked Pig 07:50, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] rewrite rename

i think after 30 years the page could be rewritten taking in account the comments above and renamed TENERIFE AIRPORT DISASTER, as there is no ref in the title is aircraft or airport..

I agree 'Tenerife disaster' is an awkward name. Unfortunately in the 30 ys since the crash it's become known like this and most people will immediately know what it's about. But.. if enough people want to change it to your proposal then, why not. It's a free encyclopedia so I suggest to state all your opinions below this text. Marminnetje 12:19, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Salon Article

The Ask the pilot article in Salon.com "A look back at the catastrophic chain of events that caused history's deadliest plane crash 30 years ago." By Patrick Smith had a couple of interesting points, one is that Jacob van Zanten,... "is the airline's top 747 instructor pilot and a KLM celebrity. Passengers may recognize him .... Later, when KLM executives first get word of the crash, they will attempt to contact van Zanten in hopes of sending him to Tenerife to aid the investigation team."

The other point is "They are tired, annoyed and anxious to get going. The irritability in the pilots' voices, van Zanten's in particular, has been duly noted by the control tower and other pilots." KAM 15:22, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] CGI Image of Collision

There are a couple of complaints for that screenshot. I've uploaded one from Crash of the Century [5]. You can use that one if you like. Stoikiometry 21:17, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Final radio transmissions" section

I'm tagging this section; someone needs to do an hour or so on it. There is the bold statement "This section of the radio transmission is taken exactly from the original CVR transcript." at the top, which is not true. This section of the radio traffic is taken directly from http://aviation-safety.net/investigation/cvr/transcripts/cvr_kl4805.php

And that transcript is wrong. If the transcript is to be a big part of the article (which I think it should be), it needs to be referenced and accurate. http://www.project-tenerife.com/engels/rapporten.htm has the Dutch, Spanish and ALPA reports which have the official CVR transcripts. I looked at 2 lines of the ASN transcript that is up there now, and both had mistakes in them. There is some pretty intense stuff at the end of the Pan Am CVR that is worth adding to the transcript as well. Lipsticked Pig 08:58, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

One issues with most of the transcripts is that they seem to copy the Pan Am 1736's chatter almost verbatim, but do not include much of the conversation from the KLM 4805 cockpit. For example, most websites with copies of the CVRs don't include the statement from 4805's first officer, telling the captain to check the throttles, as takeoff permission has not yet been given (see http://www.airmanshiponline.com/fall99/articoli/05a99-tenerife.htm, for example, along with Spanish incident report noted above). I'm adding some of it. Sacxpert 20:34, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
I think this line: "Is hij er niet af..." is suppossed to be "Is hij er niet of..." (according to the Spanish official report CVR transcript); obviously a speaker of Dutch would be helpful. Lipsticked Pig 19:00, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
"Is hij er niet af..." is actually the correct Dutch phrase even though it says 'of' in the official Spanish CVR transcript. There are a few more mistranslations in the official transcript. Wolbo 21:49, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

I had put a "dubious" tag on this section, but thanks to Sacxpert and others I've removed it. Lipsticked Pig 02:17, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Collision Diagram

The collision diagram has a red star indicating the location of the collision as being half way between taxiways C-3 and C-4 while the diagrams in the references have the location of the collision as being approximately at C-4. Could the original author please correct this or do we need to draw a new diagram?Excimer3.141597 08:55, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Your recent edits: Hey Excimer, another editor removed some of your recent edits with the comment "many good updates previously but removed a number of bits of uncited editorialising/speculation" which I think I agree with. Especially the "good edits" part, however as much as I agree with many of the actual statements/analysis you put in they need to be cited otherwise its just your (and my) opinion or original research. Still, good work that improved the article, many thanks! Lipsticked Pig 02:05, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Hi LP, thanks for the heads up, yes I realize that the references need to be added. I initially focused on studying the references and sifting through the various errors in the content of the article. Also the references at the bottom of the article are listed as links and apparently not in the proper Reference format. The parts that were removed were somewhat editorialized but were based on my reading of the accident reports and the interpretation that they convey...not my interpretation. Nevertheless I'll look back over it and look forward to discussing how the viewpoints can be expressed. PS: I considered adding a section to the article title "unanswered questions". The first one that comes to mind is: Why were the aircraft not instructed to use taxiway C-4? Ive seen this discussed on a message board with no answers to be offered. Excimer3.141597 04:52, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Hi guys. Yes, I'm the "other editor" who removed what I saw as speculation, while praising other purely fact-based additions. Excimer, I don't doubt that the speculations can be cited but I'd question including them in the Chain of Events section in any case. I think it's preferable to concentrate on the events leading to the crash in a largely black-and-whie factual manner and save the speculations for later. There is after all a Speculations section where we go into this, and where we could add still more detail (cited of course). For that reason also I question the need for an Unanswered Questions section, although I'd reserve judgement on that till I saw what you had in mind as content. Keep up the good work. Cheers, Ian Rose 08:12, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Hi Ian, I completely agree with the approach of first presenting the cold hard facts of the accident and then going into more detail about the interpretations and speculations later. However, as regards to the radio communications this would amount to only presenting the CVR (or composite CVR as it exists in the article) which by itself is difficult to interpret for a first time reader. This section in my opinion needs as much clarification as possible so long as it can be done by introducing interpretations from the references which are undisputed and transparent. Further interpretation of the communications and the presentation of the various viewpoints (which may or may not agree) in respect to these interpretations should be done as you said later in the article. Regarding the Unanswered questions, if for no other reason it might stimulate readers to investigate further with a resulting contribution to the article. Someone out there might have a clue for example as to why C-4 was not used or why an international airport didnt have taxiway signs (i wouldve guessed these were mandatory but Los Rodeos had a very simple system of taxiways). Another question is what were the winds like that day and was it possible for the airplanes to directly takeoff on runway 12 without having to jump through all the taxiing hoops. I was unable to find surface wind data in the official weather reports. However, this may be better discussed here on the talk pages. Thanks for the kudos.Excimer3.141597 06:13, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Hi guys, the Radio Transmissions section has gotten long...it is the amalgamation of 2 CVR transcripts and the ATC communications (as it should be). Considering the space it occupies now, if it could be formatted as 3 columns (alot like you see in many CVR transcripts in accident reports) with separate columns for the Pan Am, KLM, and ATC comms that would be great. Don't know if that is possible (?) however.
My personal preference is to present it without commentary; Excimer, I think I totally understand your desire to put "undisputed and transparent" clarifications in there, but if they could be placed in the section before the actual transcript so that the reader has then the ability to then read the transcript and understand what is going on I'd prefer that. However you guys are the ones working on the article so I defer to your judgement.
One thing to be wary of is too much original analysis (WP:OR); the questions you are raising are obviously good ones (what do you do for a living Excimer?), but I think "unaswered questions" such as "what were the winds like that day and was it possible for the airplanes to directly takeoff on runway 12 without having to jump through all the taxiing hoops?" has to be introduced through some referenced source/quote, otherwise we are in danger of not being an encyclopedic article, but rather a magazine article. Again, good work everyone. Lipsticked Pig 07:28, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
Excimer, I think you nailed it with "this may be better discussed here on the talk pages". IMO Chain of Events is decent as is, and not completely devoid of (uncontroversial) elucidation. The Taxiing & Weather Conditions and Communication Misunderstandings subsections do offer illumination of the transcript that follows. As I say, no reason more can't be added to Speculation - 'Unanswered questions' can go there as long as a reliable source has posed them, as Lipsticked Pig suggests, and as is the case with the bullet points there at the moment (I added a few of those citations myself, so I'm prepared to put my money where my mouth is...!)
Lipsticked Pig, your idea of the three parallel columns for Radio Transmissions has possibilities and may have been done in other articles, just not sure where...
One question for the panel (Excimer, you might be best placed to answer with your recent research): Does the current CVR transcript in the article precisely follow one particular source? We claim that "These communications are taken from the cockpit voice recorders of both aircraft, as well as from the Tenerife control tower's tapes" but we don't name the actual source(s) that we've employed - this comment can be applied to a number of the air crash articles. Because many sources differ somewhat, we really ought to agree on one prime, cite it and stick to it, except if there are other versions/interpretations from other reliable sources, in which case we can use footnotes to highlight differences. WDYT? Cheers, Ian Rose 15:28, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
As Wolbo pointed out there are errors in the "official" transcripts and when I compared them (Spanish, ALPA and Dutch) there were differences in interpretations of exactly what was said (not surprising or unusual for CVRs). Lipsticked Pig 16:22, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
Ah, my apologies for not looking further up to see that this had been touched on before. However, the recommendation that we cite our sources for the transcript still stands, as you yourself suggested above. When I get time I'll have a closer look at the versions you've noted. I might point out straight away, however, that the page http://www.airmanshiponline.com/fall99/articoli/05a99-tenerife.htm mentioned earlier is a direct copy of the Tenerife article in MacArthur Job's Air Disaster Volume 1, even down to Matthew Tesch's illustrations, and I daresay it's not been used with permission - I have my own copy which I've cited in a few places already. Cheers, Ian Rose 17:08, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

LP, I agree that columns might work better for presenting the "composite" CVR. A matrix in tabular format could convey all the information better. Also, differences in the various CVR transcriptions could be conveyed by color coding the entries (when there are multiple entries for a particular cell in the table). I also agree that there should be absolutely no annotation for this composite CVR (unless it is part of the official CVR and included in the transcription). Ian, I think that the existing approach of presenting a "composite" of the verifiable CVRs is the best, with the references to each of the CVRs of course being cited. Excimer3.141597 02:46, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Matrix in tabular format seems ideal. I too though color-coding would be a great idea, but I think that is not wikistyle unfortunately (is that the case?). Lipsticked Pig 04:14, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Not sure on the colour-coding myself, but as for a composite view in tabular format and citation for those used, I think we're in agreement... Cheers, Ian Rose 08:16, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

According to the style guide its use is discouraged for conveying information unless specific colors are used. Also after additional thought it occurred to me that while the matrix would much better convey the info, in order to preserve the linear flow of the conversation it would still take as much space (if not more). If you still think its an improvement let me know if either of you wants to knock it out else Ill do it.Excimer3.141597 03:30, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Go for it! I'm way too busy working on Wikipedia:WikiProject Pornography Lipsticked Pig 07:12, 1 June 2007 (UTC)


[edit] the word "UH"

below the article of "final Transmissions" (or something like that), the word "uh" was used a couple of times. in the other articles, i see no "uh" in there. did someone vandalized this page? XU-engineer 15:00, 19 June 2007 (UTC)


[edit] the word "still"

"The accident still has the highest number of fatalities ... in aviation history"

better be changed into:

"The accident has the highest number of fatalities ... in aviation history"

- because "still" asks for more disasters in the future. Alexander0807 03:31, 12 August 2007 (UTC)