Talk:Randall Flagg

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Good article Randall Flagg has been listed as one of the Language and literature good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can delist it, or ask for a reassessment.
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[edit] Stephen King Commentary on Randall Flag

King does a fair bit of commentary on Flagg's character, and what he was looking for when they cast the role for the TV miniseries on the Audio Commentary track for the DVD. Information on the appearance they were looking for, etc. Is it worth transcribing some of this to add to the film section here? Leafschik1967 20:03, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes. That's a great idea. I've never watched the DVD, but if there is information on Flagg (commentary or otherwise) then by all means add it to the article. As long as its properly sourced, this would be a great addition to the article.--CyberGhostface 22:09, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
Cool, I'll get on it later this week. Its a lot of stuff about how King pictured the character, etc. I'll get the quotes, and use the DVD as the source. Leafschik1967 14:35, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GA review pending

I have taken on Randall Flagg for review under the Good Article criteria, as nominated on the Good article candidates page by CyberGhostface. You'll be pleased to hear that the article meets none of the quick-fail criteria, so I will shortly be conducting an in-depth review and will post the results below.

Where an article is not an outright pass, but requires relatively minor additional work to be brought up to GA standard, I will normally place it on hold - meaning that editors have around a week to address any issues raised. As a precaution to prevent failure by default should this occur, if editors are likely to be unavailable over the next ten days or so, feel free to leave a message on my talk page so we can arrange a more convenient time for review. Apologies for the time it has taken to get to this article, but as usual the nominations page is backlogged ;) Regards, EyeSereneTALK 21:15, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GA review (fail)

I have now reviewed this article under the six Good article criteria, and have commented in detail on each criterion below:

1 Well written FAIL

1.1 Prose

Whilst this is generally good, flows well and is pleasant to read, there are one or two minor issues here:

  • The first paragraph of the lead is rather confusing; specifically "However, the name that he later associates himself with the most and uses for the majority of his appearances in The Dark Tower series is Walter o'Dim." Apart from being grammatically awkward, it appears to directly contradict the previous sentence, and it is not clear whether it refers to Randall Flagg or King himself.
    • Y Done Clarified who was Walter and added that the development occurred in later novels.--CyberGhostface 20:36, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
  • The article uses "button" in a few places; being a Brit it took me a while to realise this refers to what I would call a "badge" (see Button to understand my confusion ;) ). It may be worth linking this to wiktionary or an appropriate article to clarify the term?
  • From The Dark Tower: "Walter gives Callahan Black 13 in hopes of it killing Roland later in his journey." Who or what is '13'?
    • Y Done Did my best to explain Black 13.--CyberGhostface 20:33, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

1.2 Manual of Style

  • When using blockquotes (as in the lead and elsewhere), they should not be enclosed in quotation marks (see WP:MOSQUOTE; it's either one style or the other).
    • Y Done All the inappropiate quotation marks have been removed.--CyberGhostface (talk) 18:39, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
  • References should not be spaced from end-of-sentence punctuation - I found one like this and corrected it, but there may be more...
  • Also with references, we recommend that editors use the templates on WP:CITET to format them (amongst other things, it allows for bot processing to track down dead web-links etc). This mainly applies to the web cites in this article.
    • Y Done All references have been fixed with the proper templates.--CyberGhostface (talk) 18:41, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

2 Factual accuracy FAIL

This is the main area that needs attention, and the main reason for the GA fail. Although the article is fairly well sourced in places, GA requirements are pretty strict with regard to sourcing. As a rule of thumb, we like to see a minimum of one cite per paragraph (preferably at the end to cover the content of that paragraph), and additional cites where needed (for example, for quotations, controversial statements etc). At present the article has significant gaps in its sourcing:

  • Some sections (eg Names, appearance and role) are completely unsourced.
    • Y Done I added a smattering of sources to the sections that needed them.--CyberGhostface (talk) 19:35, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Most others are sparsely sourced, although most quotations are cited.
  • From Origns, the quotation "of the Parris Island variety" needs an explicit citation.
    • Y Done I just removed the quote. I don't know how notable it is to Flagg, and if someone wants to add it back then they can properly cite it.--CyberGhostface (talk) 18:38, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

3 Coverage PASS

Randall Flagg is covered in appropriate depth, and the article stays focused throughout.

4 Neutrality PASS

The article is sufficiently neutral in its approach to the subject.

5 Stability PASS

The article history shows no signs of current major editing or recent edit-warring.

6 Images FAIL

  • The image FlaggMovieSheridan.jpg lacks a fair-use rationale, and the fair use rationales on the other images do not state which article they are used in (one FUR per article). For more information on this, see WP:FURG - the template there ({{Non-free use rationale}}) is worth using.
    • Y Done Added complete rationales to all the images.--CyberGhostface (talk) 18:41, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

As a result of the above concerns I do not believe this article can achieve Good Article status in the short term, and have reluctantly failed this assessment. If you believe that I have applied the criteria inappropriately, or have any other concerns about the conduct of this review, you can list Randall Flagg on the Good article review page for discussion by other GA reviewers. Alternatively you may wish to address the issues raised above and then renominate the article on the Good article candidates page. Please also feel free to contact me if you have any questions. Regards, EyeSereneTALK 19:14, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Alright, thanks for your review. I'll see if I can address your concerns and then I'll renominate it.--CyberGhostface 19:34, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Edit conflict?

I'm not sure what happened just then - I've replaced many of the templates at the top of the article with the ArticleHistory template to tidy things up a bit, but I think our edits may have run into each other :P Apologies for that! EyeSereneTALK 19:48, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Don't worry, I'll add it back when I fix up some of the other problems in the article.--CyberGhostface 19:50, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Of the Parris Island variety"

I removed this quote. I don't doubt its authenticity, but its unsourced and (IMO) not exactly that relevant to the section. If someone wants to add it back, then please properly source it. Thanks.--CyberGhostface (talk) 18:36, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GA on hold

Pretty thorough job here! The only things I see missing are some citations for the 4th and 7th paragraphs of the Dark Tower section. I'll pass it once those are fixed. Wrad (talk) 18:11, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks! I'll see if I can fix it. One question though; is there any way the mention of Dennis and Thomas in the second Dark Tower book be reintegrated somewhere else in the article?--CyberGhostface (talk) 20:16, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
If you can make it work, by all means do it. I'm pretty sure it is mentioned somewhere else though. I forget where. Wrad (talk) 20:20, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
I did my best to cite the sections. Is there anything else you think that should be changed?--CyberGhostface (talk) 21:12, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
Looks good. It is now a GA! Wrad (talk) 01:48, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Notes, references

A set of related sections, footnotes in one and bibliography in another, is a handy way of solving the repeat reference problem. I've created a short bibliographic section to show what I mean. Citation 1 can now be simplified to Furth, Robin (2006), p. 266. Adding items in alphabetical order to the bibliography, "King, Stephen (1991). The Stand: Complete and Uncut. Signet. ISBN 978-0451169532" could come next, and that big pile of notes related to this one book could then be simplified. This is just a suggestion, and you can easily revert my changes. Other ways exist to solve the problem, but I think this one would work. Finetooth (talk) 03:23, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

That makes sense. What about URLs though? For example, two seperate news postings by the same author came out in the same year.--CyberGhostface (talk) 13:40, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
On second thought, if its all right with you, I'd like to just replace the extra SK references with Harvard citations being that the only time references are repeated is with his books.--CyberGhostface (talk) 15:39, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
Sure, I'm fine with that. I noticed that some of the references were already in Harvard format. I think internal consistency is more important than choice of notation system, and the choice of system should be up to the main author(s), methinks. That's you. Finetooth (talk) 19:56, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Copyeditor's thoughts

I'm moving on to a general LoCE copyedit, as requested, now that the citation question is settled. I see two vague things so far that I'd better ask about. In the lead, you write that "Flagg has appeared in a number of King's novels under different names..." It would be better to say exactly how many novels if you know the number or can figure it out. "A number" is a vague phrase that could mean any number. The second vague thing is found in "... pamphlets for the Ku Klux Klan, the Black Panthers, the Weather Underground and other such groups." It would be better to leave out "other such groups" or to explain what you mean by "other such groups". What do these three groups have in common? Finetooth (talk) 00:02, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Here's another thing to think about. In the subsection called The Stand, you say that Flagg "... attracts many drawn to law and order and fascist culture around him..." How are "law and order" and "fascist culture" similar? Is "law and order" really what attracts them, or is it something else? Finetooth (talk) 00:43, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
Well, this article has all the definite Flagg appearences. By different names I think its referring to the different aliases like Walter, Marten, etc. Maybe it could say "Flagg has been known to go under different names" or something similar? As for "law and order", I'm not sure myself but The Stand's article states "Flagg appears to various survivors in their dreams, attracting those who are drawn to logic, rationality, technology, law and order, and a strong dictatorial leader (all the things that evil represents, in King's vision)". I haven't read the book in a while, but I think that's the gist.--CyberGhostface (talk) 02:10, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
Alright, I attempted to fix up the 'R.F.' bit.--CyberGhostface (talk) 02:16, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
Things are looking better, methinks. I've read just enough King to be familiar with the gist of the article, although it also helped not to have read all of the books cited. It led me to link things like "ka-tet" because I had no idea what the term meant. I've gone as far as I can with my copyediting, and I'm going to sign off on the LoCE tag. I'll be around, though, if you have questions. It has been a long time since I read The Stand, but Flagg, the old meanie, stays with me. Best of luck with your pursuit of FA. Finetooth (talk) 05:03, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
Thanks a lot for your help. Its really appreciated.--CyberGhostface (talk) 13:08, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] diambiguation

The three links fate, plague and radical need a disambig (or get deleted). Randomblue (talk) 16:56, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Names

Can I just ask where Flagg was refered to in an acient name? The article says Nyarlathotep, but it's unclear whether he actually went by this name, or it's just an example of a mythical one. If so, should there be a dablink in the Nyarlathotep article? Cheers ArdClose (talk) 18:58, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

In was referenced briefly in The Stand, I think, but it was never a major alias that he used. He's also called Ahaz, Old Creeping Judas, R'yelah, Seti and some other names.--CyberGhostface (talk) 19:31, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Cleanup

Ok, first thing I did was remove any instance where the article presented an interpretation as fact, and tried to support it with facts from the novel. This is original research. Whenever you draw conclusions on your own, no matter how obvious, it is original research. Unless it's something to do with mathematics, which there is no subjectivity to (or something similar that is pure objective facts) then it is original research. You cannot objectively say any character is Flagg just because they are described in a similar manner. Unless they specifically say he is Flagg then it doesn't count. Now, if someone outside of Wikipedia (in this case Furth) publishes something connecting the dots then that is perfectly fine. There was OR riddled within sections, usually not the entire section itself, so they've been removed. If you think I've removed something in haste, just let me know and we can figure out what I misinterpreted the OR.

Another issue was with redundancy. The "Names" and "Backstory" information is something best covered in his appearances section (most of which it is covered in that section). I took what was just fact reporting (i.e. In novel X, Flagg says Blah Blah Blah) and incorporated it into the appropriate sections and then nixed the rest of it as it was pretty much covered already. I removed the controversy around Flagg's death and placed it in an "Impact" section. My intention is for this section to be expanded upon with information about his impact in the real world. Now, this could be worked in somewhere else, but it felt better away from the general appearances. I left the reveiws of Sheridan in that section because they focus more on the actor and less on the character, so it seemed appropriate.

As was probably obvious when I started, I've trimmed (dramatically) the appearances section. This section should not chronicle his every movement within a book, it should give a general overview of his actions in those novels. I saw in the previous FAC that a big issue was with the high level of in-universe information, and I think I've curbed most of that criticism. I also removed the subheadings, as some of those novel appearances were a bit too small to warrant a whole subsection to themselves. Another thing, I've replaced duplicate sources with "ref name". What I noticed was that the same source would be used, but instead of counting twice (or more) it was being counted once each time. As a result, 58 sources have now been consolidated into 35 sources (though some were removed when I removed some unnecessary information that was more pertinent to the books than it was to the character).

I removed images awhile ago because without critical commentary, the images were failing WP:FU. I've given though about removing the Sheridan image, but there is discussion on King wanting a specific face for the TV adaptation, so it may be good to keep it. There isn't talk about the "demon" look of Flagg in the section so the Fangoria image needs to go. Though, I like it and I'm hoping that maybe we can find some information on it, or on the look of Flagg (maybe for the concept and creation section) that would allow us to simply move the image to a new location and not lose it entirely.

I also moved some information that was in the appearances section to a new section, "Characterization". This section is for information that pertains to Flagg's look, persona, etc (i.e. How he is characterized in the novels).

You'll notice citation needed tags around the article (mostly the upper half). These are areas that either need the book source (I have the books, so I can take care of these later) or need a secondary source to confirm the interpration. I didn't remove it outright because I thought it could be relevant and would be good to have if we had a source to support it.

I've stopped at the "In film" section, and I will continue when I get the time. If there are any questions or comments please let me know. I'm not here to destroy the article, I'm here to help it get through the FAC process.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 21:09, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

The only thing I would like to do is find a place for Walter's image, being as that is Flagg's second biggest persona and in the DT series is the one where he's most known by. Maybe I can try expanding a section on how he is described in the book for it?
School ends this week for me so if it doesn't get to it I'll try to fixing some of the citations. In some cases, though, I'm not sure if its needed. For example, the line stating "In original version of The Stand, what happens to Flagg is unknown" doesn't have a direct source because the chapter with Flagg waking up is not there.
I would also like to find a place for the scene in DT5 where he looks hurt, as its one of the few scenes where Flagg is given a moment of humanity. Maybe not the direct quote as it was before, but a brief mention.
As for finding information about Flagg's demon form in the movie, I'll look around for some behind the scenes info.
Anyway, thanks. Your help is greatly appreciated here.--CyberGhostface (talk) 13:31, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
Can't disagree with your general aim of cutting out the fat, but I think there needs to be some mention of Flagg's fate (i.e. his death) in the "In Novels" section. Being as this section basically comprises a biography of the character, it would seem very odd to me to not mention his death, especially as it does still mention the (vague) details of his birth. The Impact section is useful in itself, discussing audience reaction to the death, but without mention of it in the quasi-bio section, the reader gets a "huh? Did I miss the line where he died?" moment when they get to Impact Chaoticfluffy (talk) 14:00, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
Actually, the last paragraph states "The character believes that the only way to enter the tower is with the red-marked foot of Roland's son, Mordred Deschain, seeing this as an opportunity to become the God of all. Flagg attempts to befriend Mordred, pledging allegiance to him, but Mordred telepathically sense Flagg's true motives and kills him."--CyberGhostface (talk) 16:17, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
Oops! Well, scratch that then...and I read the page and the diff multiple times, too! *sighs at self* Chaoticfluffy (talk) 17:26, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
If information can be found about Walter's "image" in the book, then great. The problem that the page was running into at the FACs was that the images were basically pure eye candy. Anyway, on to this latest (and final) trim. I've moved the literary criticism to "Characteristics" as that information was generally all about how he is characterized in the books. Some really good info too. I trimmed the huge quotations and replaced them with simplified paraphrases. I'd like to go back and in pull some quotes that were kind of cool to read, but for succinctness purpose they had to be trimmed, and use them for some quote boxes. Quote boxes are a great way to dress up an article without having to worry about the WP:FU-police getting on your nerves. I also cleaned up the source templates. I don't think I "cut" anything, just trimmed it, but if you saw somethign I did "cut" then ask me about it and I'll explain my reasoning. Chances are it was cut for similar reasons as the other stuff.
Improvement: I left a paragraph beginning in the "Characterization" section for Flagg's physical appearance. I remember some things about his appearance in the novels, and on this page (though I think they may have been misplaced by accident). This is a nice place to include basic facts about how he has been represented physically in the different books. If we can find critics discussing why the change, then that would be even better. We'll have to beef up the "Impact" section, maybe find some popular culture references or something. I'll try and help out with the searching. Again, let me know if you have questions about my edits.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 17:18, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Connection between The Dark Tower and The Eyes of the Dragon

It is stated in The Drawing of the Three that at some point in his early life, Roland met two young men named Thomas and Dennis who were hunting for a demon called Flagg, making it the first use of the name Flagg in the series. Strangely enough, Roland doesn't make any connection between Randall and Walter o'Dim. Is this something that must be cited? MwNNrules (talk) 10:44, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Well it wouldn't be an "appearance", only a mentioning. I'm not sure how to include it, but it would certainly need to be cited at least by the book.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 11:03, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
He doesn't make any connection because DotT still corresponds with the continuity of the original Gunslinger, in which Roland is not aware that Marten = Walter. Still, even then, he didn't know about the Flagg persona.--CyberGhostface (talk) 16:18, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
All fair enough. I just thought that it may be worth mentioning the persona of Flagg's first appearance. My idea was to have the Flagg reference in the paragraph about The Eyes of the Dragon, as a testament to Thomas' and Dennis' success. But it doesn't really matter, I guess. MwNNrules (talk) 18:42, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
I thought it was already there. Was it removed? If its not, you could reference that they were mentioned in DotT. But I suppose anything else (like speculation on why its there or etceteras) might be original research.--CyberGhostface (talk) 20:11, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
As far as I know, it was never mentioned in the article. I wanted to add it at the end to reinforce what is stated: that Thomas and Dennis found Flagg and tried to defeat him. And yeah, since there's so much cross-referencing in King's work, I wanted to check here so that it was not deleted as Original Research. MwNNrules (talk) 21:15, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
It was probably removed during the cleanup, because I remember adding it a while ago. Anyway, you can probably say something along the lines of "There is a reference to Dennis and Thomas pursuing Flagg in Drawing of the Three, but nothing further is elaborated beyond that".--CyberGhostface (talk) 21:37, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

If I knew exactly where to look, I'd try to get it cited, but I don't. However, I'd be happy to help with anything in my limits. I'll try gathering up the pertinent information for citing it before it is dubbed Original Research. MwNNrules (talk) 01:09, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm not seeing the importance of mentioning it, because the previous sentence basically says the same thing, that Thomas and Dennis find Flagg but the outcome is not revealed. We basically have two sentences saying the same thing back to back.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 01:12, 7 May 2008 (UTC)


To the topic post for this section: the reason Roland doesn't make the connection is because he didn't know that Flagg was an alternate persona of either Walter or Marten (who were still considered seperate characters at this point). Marten mentions when you meet him in the "throne room" of the Topeka castle that he calls himself Flagg now, which would indicate that Roland didn't know. Remember, Flagg "looks like other people," he probably looked like someone else at the time Roland first saw him.

As an aside, it is mentioned in DotT that Flagg turned someone into something else by looking at him. I believe it was a dog; I feel this should be added somewhere in the article. Ours18 (talk) 03:08, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for your input Ours18. I don't remember him turning a guy into a dog, but I'm not doubting you. Anyways at Bignole's behalf I will delete my contribution. In retrospect he's right. MwNNrules (talk) 18:36, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Connection with The Library Policeman

While I recognize that the reference to the Dark Man in the novella doesn't directly reference Flagg, other speculative appearances are included in the article, despite there being no definitive confirmation that they refer to Flagg. What level of citation would be proper in order to support a mention of the reference, without making the claim that it definitely refers to Flagg? --96.243.12.146 (talk) 21:10, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

The *only* non-confirmed Flagg appearence in the article is Hearts in Atlantis, and we have a source from a legit published work that makes the speculation.--CyberGhostface (talk) 21:18, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
A citation from the same source would be sufficient, then? If I recall correctly, they did mention the use of the "dark man" in TLP. It's been some time since I read TCSKU, though, so I'll have to go back and see if I can find it. --96.243.12.146 (talk) 21:21, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
As long as you just use the information from the cited material itself, and not just listing all the comparisions from the stories that you found. It probably wouldn't deserve an entire paragraph.--CyberGhostface (talk) 22:06, 10 June 2008 (UTC)