Talk:Persepolis (comic)

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[edit] Graphic novel?

Can you really call Persepolis a graphic novel? I know that's what it's categorized as in bookstores, but it's really more of a graphic memoir. IMFromKathlene 05:16, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

No, it's not a graphic novel. I'm renaming it to reflect that. Snoutwood 00:55, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
Actually, graphic novel, as our article makes clear, is a term which doesn't denote fiction and as such this page shouldn't really have been moved on that basis. The work is typically referred to as a graphic novel. Hiding Talk 20:08, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
Hmm, I would disagree that the term "graphic novel" doesn't imply fiction, and I wouldn't say that our article (on which I didn't find a source for that claim, but I could have missed it) isn't a good source do corroborate that. Now, I don't have any material apart from my own personal, totally non-RS experience in comics to say that it should be "comic" instead, so I can't really base the move on anything other than that and personal preference. Thus, feel free to move it back if you strongly disagree, but I certainly wouldn't call it that myself. This is an issue that I've seen up a couple of times, and though I really should seriously investigate it I haven't had the time lately to dig into the subject. Snoutwood 00:24, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
Time magazine states "Graphic novel" is a vague moniker that gets applied to any extended form of comics, including non-fiction and short story collections. [1]. Paul Gravett states "The term novel can make people expect the sort of format, serious intent, and weighty heft of traditional literature, as if a graphic novel must be the visual equivalent of "an extended, fictional work". True, some individual graphic novels can run to hundreds of pages, while others stretch to thousands across multiple volumes - but many are much shorter, or consist of collections of short stories, and they can come in all shapes, square, oblong, from miniscule to gigantic. Even more importantly, a great many are definitely not fictional at all but belong in the categories of non-fiction - history, biography, reportage, documentary, or educational." Gravett, Paul (2005). Graphic Novels: Stories To Change Your Life, 1st ed., Aurum Press Limited. ISBN 1-84513-068-5.  page 8. Gravett makes usage of the term "graphic-novel biography" in "Hip Hip Herge!" The Independent on Sunday (London); Dec 10, 2006; Paul Gravett; p. 35, 'The Evening Standard describes Pyongyang [2] as graphic novel in its review, "TRAVEL" Evening Standard (London); Dec 12, 2006; SIOBHAN MURPHY; p. 28, The Times note the confusion thus: "Some genre names seem particularly troublesome. We here in Books have a particular fondness for what are sometimes called comic books, sometimes called graphic novels, and never, it seems to us, called anything really satisfactory. How can something be a graphic "novel" if it happens to be a memoir?" 'Isn't any really good book a thriller?' The Times (London); Dec 9, 2006; Erica Wagner; p. 2, Craig Raine writes "Marjane Satrapi's wonderful Persepolis, her account in graphic-novel form" in The Guardian, Nov 25, 2006; p. 6. I can go on, The Times notes the "Iranian storyteller discusses Persepolis, her autobiographical graphic novel" Nov 11, 2006; p. 9, The New York Times describes the work as "Marjane Satrapi's graphic novel" December 19, 2004, and the publisher of the work itself lists it in its graphic novel section[3].
I hope that is enough to convince you to amend the article, I would hope there are enough citations there describing the work as a graphic novel to allow the text to reflect that. I don't have a research background either, I assume that is what RS means. I'd also note the current form of the article is wrong, the work should be described as in the comics form rather than as a comic if we ignore the citations above and not describe it either as a graphic novel or published as a graphic novel. Appreciate your further thoughts on the issue. Hiding Talk 11:11, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
Nice research. Even so, I prefer the term "graphic memoir" for Persepolis. While the term "graphic novel" is more common and conveys much of the meaning that I would want it to when describing Persepolis, it does not go far enough.
Also, there is evidence that the term "graphic memoir" is more appropriate. In the June 18, 2006 New York Times Book Review[4]] of Alison Bechdel's Fun Home, Sean Wilsey uses the term "graphic memoir" in the first sentence and comments later on that "It's odd that this memoir, a work of meticulous personal reportage, is referred to as a 'graphic novel' in the accompanying letter from its publisher — though I was relieved to discover that I'm not the only one in need of a trip to the dictionary."[5]
Dkreisst 08:15, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
Good article, but applying the term to this work without a direct quote is original research. Hiding Talk 15:19, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
"A brilliant and unusual graphic memoir. . . . [Told] in a guileless voice . . . accompanied by a series of black-and-white drawings that dramatically illustrate how a repressive regime deforms ordinary lives." -–Vogue
It is just one quote, probably not enough to convince supporters of calling Persepolis a graphic novel, but a start. I need help finding the source.
Dkreisst 07:33, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
Sorry, my news archive doesn't include Vogue. I'm guessing that's from the Amazon site? And I'd state, I'm not bothered if we also refer to it as a graphic memoir, but the publication format the work takes is typically referred to as a "graphic novel". I think almost everyone is aware it is a bad term and doesn't suit works such as this, but it's the term used. Look at the term comics, a phrase initially used to describe comical strips, now used to apply to superhero stories. Maybe we can work some sort of compromise? Perhaps we can introduce the graphic memoir term later in the article in addition to the term graphic novel? Hiding Talk 21:34, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
I saw the quote in an ad in the New Yorker, it was referenced as from Vogue, but an internet search couldn't get me a Vogue book reviews. Right now I don't even have the issue number of the magazine.
I would definitetly agree to the compromise mentioned. Though I should mention that my issue is with the name "graphic novel" being used in general to describe memoirs. You (Hiding) seem to have a more thorough understanding of comic history than I do and your argument about the proper usage of novel vs. memoir, to me, still seems valid. Dkreisst 06:33, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
Well I guess if you want to shape the article how you want it, and we can take it from there, do you reckon that's the best way forwards? Hiding Talk 21:27, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Compromise

How about: "Persepolis is a French-language autobiography, written in graphic novel format, by Marjane Satrapi that..." It removes the lable of "graphic novel," but retains the term for reference. And, altogether, is a little bit awkward.Dkreisst 19:25, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

The current intro is fine. --Knulclunk 01:34, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
As stated above, my issue with the current intro is inclusion of the term "graphic novel." Please read the above discussion, if you have not already, and be specific about what you think is fine about the intro and list the reasons that relate to that decision. Dkreisst 06:27, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
I have read the above discussion and feel that Hiding's arguments and research is solid. The term graphic novel does not diminish the autobiographical nature of the Persepolis story. Graphic novel is a format, meaning "a long comic book story intended for adults". I see that Maus is appropriately referred to as a graphic novel as well. The term "graphic memoir" does not mean anything, unless we go through the convoluted definition Sean Wilsey uses to make the point in his article. --Knulclunk 16:54, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
Knulcluck, I agree that Hiding's research is solid I can't argue that the term graphic novel doesn't apply to nonfiction. I don't believe that it should however, as you have probably picked up. I guess that I should have brought this up at the Talk:graphic novel page. I hope both you and Hiding contribute to that conversation if I find time to bring it up. Dkreisst 01:52, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Author's preference

I just attended a personal appearance by Marjane Satrapi, and she stated a personal preference for "comic book" as the term for her work, as opposed to "graphic novel". She regards "graphic novel" as a term for comic books invented by marketing people for adults who are embarrassed to buy comic books. She also prefers "comic book" because she wants her work to be perceived as popular art, as opposed to stuffy Serious Literature.

She also stated that it's not strictly autobiographical. Although it's based heavily on her personal experiences, the details are not presented with strict accuracy. Sometimes the details differ because she just didn't remember the exact wording of conversations (which is fair in non-fiction, if disclosed), but sometimes she knowingly changed details for dramatic purposes.

For example, during the Iran-Iraq War, a neighbor she cared about was killed by a bombing. In the film (and I think the comic too), it happened when she was 13, but in real life it happened when she was 18. She changed the detail because a "five years later" transition would have disrupted the flow of the story. She implied that she made numerous similar changes, but that was the only one she cited.

So, rather than calling it "autobiographical", it would be more accurate to call it a work of "fictionalized autobiography", or maybe a "fictionalized memoir". She didn't state a preference on that point, but her discussion of the fictionalized aspect does suggest that she wants it clearly known that the story isn't strictly accurate on the details. —- Steve Schonberger (talk) 11:49, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Tricky thing is this is about what we can prove. If she said it at a personal appearance then she must have said it elsewhere and if so we can source it. Otherwise it could be tricky adding it. (Emperor (talk) 13:54, 15 April 2008 (UTC))

[edit] WikiProject Afhganistan?

Why? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Knulclunk (talk • contribs) 21:23, 4 February 2007 (UTC). I removed the Afghanistan Project. Feel free to replace it if I made an error. --Knulclunk 00:01, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Film

Looks like we might need Persepolis (film) as it is getting some heat already. It is due to screen at Cannes but the Iranian government are already launching protests. [6] (Emperor 20:17, 21 May 2007 (UTC))

As I had the resources to hand I though I might as well start it. (Emperor 00:16, 22 May 2007 (UTC))

I am adding an article by an Iranian émigré, Marjane Satrapi and her veiled Bridget Jones. Although it is in French, the article is important as it suggests — with considerable evidence — that Marjane Satrapi is not a real opponent to the régime in Tehran and, indeed, that the mullahs' opposition to the movie of her graphic novel/memoir was feigned.