Talk:Latin America

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[edit] European Population

Hey, I'm just adding this to point out that the percentages given in the European section aren't consistent with the table shown below. According to the table Uruguay is clearly the country with the highest White population, having 88% of Whites. Brazil is named as being the one with the highest White population but only 55% of them are White according to the table. Mexico is named as the third with the highest White population and according to the table only 9% of them are White! So yeah, what's wrong the table or the section? Can someone verify this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.0.134.49 (talk) 02:32, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

That sentence refers to absolute numbers - how many millions of people - as opposed to percentages. I tweaked it. SamEV (talk) 02:46, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

I think something is wrong with the figures for Venezuela. 41% white? Most sources I am aware of would list it between 20% and 21%. Can someone fix it and cite where they're getting the numbers from and if they are up to date? Rafajs77 (talk) 13:35, 7 April 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Geography

I think this page is lacking a geography section or at least a link to one. Also this discussion page is getting quite long. LostLucidity (talk) 18:04, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] City Order

Sorry to add to this long discussion page, but is there a rhyme or reason to they way the photos of Latin America's major urban centers are arranged? I ask because the order changes almost daily, almost as if people were just putting their own favorite cities on top (most changes happen without explanantion). I even tried to arrange them alphabetically and explained this is what I was doing and it was reversed just a few hours later. If not alphabetical, then maybe by population, or GDP, I don't know, but the changing around on personal whim is very unprofessional. Rafajs77 (talk) 03:52, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

I did tried to set a criteria unsuccessfully, as other editors did try too. I think is time to call an Administrator to ban these anonymous editors, this pic game is not only childish but it is wasting Wiki disk memory with unnecessary entries in the history log. Mariordo (talk) 02:42, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

We have to reorder the pictures according the most important economies or cities, (Sao Paulo, Mexico City, Buenos Aires, Santiago de Chile.)

--Fercho85 (talk) 03:02, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

What do other areas do? Or better yet, the MOS? -- Ricky81682 (talk) 04:58, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Northern America

I think somewhere in the article, specifically the introductory sentence, should mention that Latin America and Northern America are the two cultural/economic halves of America as a whole. M.nelson (talk) 00:11, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Protection

In the chance that they actually care to explain themselves, I've asked both of the last IP addresses about their editing habits.[1][2] If they continue, you can message me and I'll semi-protect the article so they can't play with it. They have to learn to explain their problems not just play games. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 05:00, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Mexico

I thinks 52% is an underestimate for Mestizos in Mexico, and 30% is an over estimate for AmerIndians. Full blooded AmerIndians only make up 12% of the Mexican population. Perhaps, if the time is not to change, someone can clarify the disrepencies? Being predominantly Indian doesn't mean you're not Mestizo. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.254.10.220 (talk) 16:16, 15 May 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Belize

Recently, there's been a user that is making changes to the article that puts Belize grouped in equal consideration as all the other countries that are traditionally considered Latin America. Rather than get involved in an edit war, I thought it'd be a good idea to discuss it here. Personally, I thought the way the article was before, as even the map indicates that it was considered different than the rest of the countries. In all my Latin American studies and through Spanish studies in college, Belize was never grouped together with the rest of Latin America (my sister-in-law's mom comes from there too and doesn't consider it as such). I realize that there are a lot of Spanish speakers there, but not only is the official language only English, but creole there is mainly English based. Also, Spain did claim the region, but they never actually had full dominance over the natives and couldn't successfully establish colonies; that's how the British were able to make a claim (even though there are even some border disputes today). I know that different sources may conflict, but I thought the previous version did a good job at explaining that it sometimes is, but made the distinction, which with all the recent edits, it doesn't. Kman543210 (talk) 00:17, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

I am the user that made the edits. I am Belizean. The fact is that Belize is geographically and culturally Latin American. It borders Mexico and Guatemala and is a Central American country. Latin America does not mean Spanish America (Haiti and Brazil are both Latin American countries, as are the ABC islands, as is Puerto Rico, where English is also an official language), but even if it rritory and was not successful in establishing settlements; that's a big reason that Great Britain was able to establish colonies. Kriol in Belize is also English-based, not Spanish-based.
Most sources provided and that I have seen do not include Belize in Latin America, and we have to rely on sources, not anecdotes. You're right that due to immigration, Spanish and Latin American culture is influencing Belize more and more. Eventually, it may be considered part of Latin America, but I haven't seen the inclusion of Belize yet in all my Latin American and Spanish studies. Sometimes it is included, but I thought the article already did a good job explaining that before the edits. Kman543210 (talk) 00:44, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for continuing the discussion. The fact is that there are people in Belize, like your your sister-in-law's mother, that do not speak Spanish. Many of these people wear their English as a badge of honor. However, national statistics show that as a percentage of the population, these people form a very small group. There are other Latin American countries with non Spanish/Portuguese speaking populations, particularly indigenous groups. This does not mean that they are not Latin American. What I mention here about Belize is not anecdotal, it is fact. Look at the current census data from the country. Look at the demographics. Lets look at facts, not anecdotes. Geographically, Belize is in Latin America. This is not even debatable. Culturally it is as well. I do understand the confusion because of its British Colonial past, but two things (1) the demographics don't lie and (2) other Latin Americans have non-Spanish or Portuguese colonial pasts as well. I mentioned Haiti and the ABC islands in addition to Puerto Rico. It was mentioned that Spain did not have "full" control over Belizean territory. That's because Spain colonized it along with half of America. Spain didn't have "full" control over most of the territories and peoples it colonized, which is precisely what led to the independence, or loss to other imperial powers, of most of its American conquests. Unlike most of the English Caribbean, Belize is not just geographically Latin American, it is culturally Latin American. Most of its cities do not have English names, they have Spanish and Maya names. The main religion in Belize is catholicism, with protestant churches on the rise (as it is in other Latin American states). The biggest ethnic group is the Mestizo group, Belizeans of mixed Spanish and Amerindian descent. There is also a significant Maya and Garifuna population. Spanish is spoke more than any other language as a first language and most of the population is bilingual or trilingual. These are all facts. Facts that can easily be verified. According to census data from as far back as the 1980s when Belize became an independent country, even then, the majority of Belizeans spoke Spanish. The census estimated that in 1980 that some 62 percent of all Belizeans were bilingual or trilingual (see: http://lcweb2.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?frd/cstdy:@field(DOCID+bz0034)). This during a time when Belize just got its independence from the British. The official numbers of Spanish speakers has only increased over the past 25+ years of Belizean independence. Data from 1992 shows that Spanish was spoken more as a first language than any other language, including Kriol/Creole (http://www.ethnologue.com/show_country.asp?name=BZ). Today, data from the latest census, 2000, shows that Spanish is spoken more as a first language than any other language and that is prevalence as increased. Spanish, Kriol and Maya Ketchi are all spoken as first languages by more of the population than English. Here are the numbers: English 3.9% (official), Spanish 46%, Creole 32.9%, Mayan languages 8.9%, Garifuna 3.4% (2000 census). I don't think the article previous article did a "good job" at explaining any of this, which is why I made the edits. To the contrary, it mentioned Belize alongside the Falkland Islands, Guyana, Suriname and Trinidad and Tobago stating that "they are not culturally or linguistically Latin American". This is inaccurate, as Belize is not like those counties at all. None of those places have significant Spanish speaking populations let alone ones that are as great a Belize's, where they form the largest group. Non of those countries boast bilingualism and trilingualism as Belize does. My arguments are based on facts and not on what one person from a particular country is telling me. It was mentioned that there are Spanish Studies and Latin American Studies that do not mention Belize. It is something that I have noticed in my studies and work as well. However, the fact is that most classes and text wont' cover it, not because it is not Latin American, but because it is a tiny country of only 300,000 people. However, at the same time, I would find it extremely hard t believe that any serious academic of academic text of Latin American studies would argue that Belize is not in Latin America. If "most sources provided" don't include Belize as being part of Latin America, then I would really suggest looking for better sources. Check out Modern Latin America by Thomas E. Skidmore and Peter H. Smith . Their and others' understanding of Latin America includes Belize and nowhere do they make a point of not including Belize as part of Latin America or grouping it with the Falkland Islands, Guyana, Suriname and Trinidad and Tobago. I find it hard to believe that I am even having to make these arguments to people editing a Latin America page, but I don't mind doing it if it raises awareness. Amilito (talk) 12:40, 31 May 2008 (GMT)

Thanks again for sharing your knowledge of your country. The language statistics are definitely not in dispute, as I have seen the percentages; that's why I acknowledged that there is a majority Spanish-speaking population now (just not "vast"). I think maybe a better word choice would be that Belize has not always been "traditionally" included with the rest of Latin America. Don't get me wrong; I don't mean any disrespect to Belize and in all my studies on Latin America, Belize was mentioned because it's in the area. Also, there's no dispute that Latin America does not mean Hispanic America; all countries traditionally with Latin-based colonies and languages have been included (Spanish, French, Portuguese). I think the problem is that the sources that are used in this article do not back up that Belize is "always" included. Those bullet points were taken directly from a source, so if you change the definition, it no longer matches the source. If Belize is now always included in the definition of Latin America, then there needs to be new reliable sources used and maybe a small sentence explaining the change in Belize over the last century with an increase in the Spanish-speaking population. Another source not used in the article that I'm looking at right now (latinamericans.com) does not list Belize with the rest of the "traditional" Latin American countries, but it is mentioned under the "sometimes" paragraph. I know this might sound silly, but wikipedia is about verifiability, not truth. Although, if Belize is truly now a considered part of Latin America in all definitions, then there should be plenty of sources out there. Kman543210 (talk) 13:16, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks to you again as well. The discussion is good. Belize may have not been considered a "traditional" part of Latin America. This is understandable, as it only just recently became a country. It used to be called British Honduras and has only been an independent nation called Belize since 1981. Under the past circumstances, it is easy to see why the territory may have been overlooked in popular and academic discourses on Latin America, as it was a a British colony. Today, it is not longer a British Colonial outpost and is now an independent country. It should be, and is, looked at differently than it was in the past. Here are two very credible sources that include Belize as part of Latin America: (1) Latin America: A Concise Interpretive History by E. Bradford Burns and Julie A. Charlip; and (2) Modern Latin America by Thomas E. Skidmore and Peter H. Smith (This book cctually has a whole section on Belize). These are two very well researched books that have gone through many editions and the authors are universally regarded as experts at the top of their field, Latin American Studies. I think there is an over reliance on websites. I wouldn't really consider latinamericans.com as a credible academic resource. The fact is the the average person, anglophone and hispanic has not ever heard of Belize and knows very little about it. This is true even in the Caribbean. I often have to explain things like this. Thanks for helping me understand about wikipedia. This was my very first edit. Amilito (talk) 16:35, 31 May 2008 (GMT)