Talk:Juan Diego

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More information about this article... This article has been marked as needing immediate attention. The following comments have been left for this page: This page needs to mark references, especially with the doubts of Juan Diego's historical existence. (edit)

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I'm writing an expansion of this from reports in the press and the WWW. — Toby 16:28 Aug 1, 2002 (PDT)

I'm done writing, so feel free to edit again. Next stop: Our Lady of Guadalupe. — Toby 19:09 Aug 1, 2002 (PDT)

I'm going to list the sources for my August 1 expansion:

• The Los Angeles Times, August 1, 2002, pages 4 and 5.
• A Dallas Morning News article on the historicity of Juan Diego, translated and reprinted on the front page of the July 26 issue of La Prensa, a Spanish language newspaper local to the Inland Empire (California).
• The Catholic web site listed as an external link in the article (at least at time of writing), with a grain of salt.
• A few Google searches on items mentioned in these sources.

— Toby 01:05 Aug 2, 2002 (PDT)

What part of "Cuauhtlatoatzin" means "eagle"? There's a bird called "hoatzin", but it is totally unlike an eagle. -phma

"Cuauh" is the root of "Cuauhtli", eagle. "Tlatoa" means "to speak", and -tzin is a honorary suffix. --Mixcoatl 19:05, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)

That's what it says at http://www.sancta.org/juandiego.html . That site accepts claims so uncritically that I didn't want to come out and say that that's what the name means, which is why I phrased the sentence as I did. But if you know better than they do, then by all means fix the translation; and if you're sure of it, then by all means change the phrasing of the sentence so that it's clear that the translation is indeed correct. — Toby 21:27 Aug 1, 2002 (PDT)

Much of Mexico's indigenous population is converting to Protestantism - much of it is reverting to native religions, as well, feeling that they better represent their culture. -- Zoe

The LA Times article that was the source for my Protestantism comment didn't mention this (which I found personally disappointing), but if it's true, then by all means add it in. — Toby 01:05 Aug 2, 2002 (PDT)

My source was a television report by one of the LA news people in Mexico during the Pope's visit -- I think he was from Channel 2, but I'm not sure. -- Zoe

Are you putting it in the article? Or do you not trust Channel 2? (I have no opinion, I don't watch TV.) — Toby 06:43 Aug 3, 2002 (PDT)

I didn't want to add something on the basis of one half-listened-to news report. If we could find more documentation ... -- Zoe

[edit] Title

I don't think we should use his Nahuatl (i.e., his "pagan" name) as part of the title. He is much better-known simply as "Juan Diego", and changing one's name was a big part of conversion. As the symbolic "first convert", we should respect his self-chosen identity (assuming he existed, but that is a "whole 'nother" problem. Any objections?--Rockero 23:51, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Moved.--Rockero 08:31, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Balance and neutrality concerns

The present version of this article is almost completely credulous and lacking in balance. The events of Juan Diego's life, and even his very existence, have been the subject of numerous notable published works that give a much more sceptical account; unfortunately the article omits all mention of these. Other than a tokenistic reference to Schulenburg, reading this one would think that Juan Diego's existence and his supposed vision are universally taken for granted, but this is clearly not the case.

I removed a recent anon's addition that stated he was canonised "despite not having existed", on the basis that categorical assertions of unattributed opinion as fact are inappropriate. However, the anon does rather have a point, and most of the assertions already here are no better. There is an evident need for a far more rigorous and honest approach that documents, or at least mentions, the many points of contention. Hopefully will be able to make a start on it soon. --cjllw ʘ TALK 03:58, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

I have restored the disputed and unbalanced tags that were taken out- any cursory research conducted on the topic ought to reveal that a considerable body of academic and other works exists, seriously questioning the authenticity of the account given here, and (not least) Juan Diego's supposed existence. I have added in a few of the more notable and accessible references of this nature, and when I get an opportunity will try over the coming week(s) to work these into the article itself. The tags should remain until such time as the balance, factual and neutrality concerns are redressed.

In the meantime, if anyone doubts there are sufficient notable views that discount and dispute the details of the Juan Diego story as presently and uncritically relayed in the article, they can look up the supplied references for starters. Also, this article summarises and identifies a few of those concerns. See, for example, Cambridge Prof. D.A. Brading's quoted comment on JD's canonisation: "When the pope canonizes Juan Diego, he will have elevated to sainthood the hero of a religious work of fiction". Or Mexican theologian Jorge Erdely's "History isn't silent. There's a lot of information contrary to his existence". Quite a few more could readily be found, including not just a few from past and present Catholic hierarchy sources.--cjllw ʘ TALK 02:24, 14 November 2007 (UTC)