Talk:William Orr

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[edit] Added references

I have added references as requested. I have removed one section:

He was compelled to go on the run to avoid imprisonment during the brutal “dragooning” of Ulster in 1797, a concerted attempt by the authorities to smash the United Irish movement. However, he was captured on 15 September 1797 when he slipped home to pay a visit to his dying father.

As I was unable to reference it! I will try though. I have only left one unreferenced line in. --Domer48 22:48, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your sterling work on this article, Domer48. I've put back the judicial murder part because that is entirely justified by the context and the histories of this poor man. W. Frank talk ✉  23:00, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Under Wiki guidlines it has to be "killing," as far as I know, I could be wrong though. I would under the conditions he was placed in, think he was courageous, knowing what he had to face. --Domer48 23:18, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

No. If the sources say it was considered "judicial murder" at the time then that's that we say in the article. It's only if there are alternative significant sources that advance a contrary position that we need to quibble or be mealy mouthed. WP can not adjudicate "truth" - only provide an article written from a balanced neutral point of view.

That doesn't mean we have to prevaricate about unanimous sources - and, in this case they must be unanimous 'cos we only reference one (huge grin).

Wonderful speech isn't it? W. Frank talk ✉  23:57, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "judicial murder" or "judicial killing"

Almost by definition, all executions are "judicial killings" (otherwise they'd be lynchings or contract killings whatever). The point we need to make here is that, without the false and mendacious trappings of a kangaroo court with hand picked judge and jury, he would have been acquitted. I think many of our readers are adult enough to understand that it was not the judge that murdered him but a politically rigged judicial system. Murder is to kill someone with unlawful intent or extreme negligence (such as deliberately not feeding an infant). We're not dealing with a Diplock court here and the feeling at the time was that he was "judicially murdered" W. Frank talk ✉  10:22, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

I knew I'd read something on this, [1]. --Domer48 12:21, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Interesting and pertinent discussion. For a second opinion, you might care to ask User:Kittybrewster. I would say we would be pretty safe to restore "judicial murder" (solely in the context of this particular article) if he concurred and then we might also feel pretty safe that our article had passed the NPOV test. He's also a very senior Wikipedian W. Frank talk ✉  14:24, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

It's also true that Orr and his political friends wanted to set up their own "politically-rigged" system. Though not guilty as charged, as a United Irishman he would not have hesitated in judicially killing the likes of Yelverton and Camden. Pot and kettle??Red Hurley 10:48, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

So what your saying is, they hung a man who they knew to be innocent. Who given have a chance, with his comrades, would have established an Irish Republic. This Republic would have been rigged in such a way, that religious animosity, fostered by an alien government, would have been removed. And that the common name Irishman, would have replaced religious denominations of Catholic, Protestant and Dissenter. This discussion page is to devise ways of improving the article, not a chat room. If you have something to add, then add it. And use references. --Domer48 15:19, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 16:08, 10 November 2007 (UTC)