Talk:Twelve-tone technique

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Contents

[edit] Links

Retrograde is a redirect page to an article about astronomy. Invariance is a page that lists various mathematical and physical concepts. Where those links should go instead, if anywhere, is something that those who care about this page should think about. Michael Hardy 17:55, 24 Dec 2003 (UTC)

The retrograde page did, however, include a link to Musical terminology, which previously discussed retrograde. I just changed that link to Counterpoint, which discusses "Contrapuntal derivations" including retrograde. Invariance (which redirects to Invariant), also discusses invariance as it relates to twelve tone music. Hyacinth 18:22, 24 Dec 2003 (UTC)

[edit] Outline

My proposed outline for this article:

  1. Intro
  2. Antecedents (Scriabin & others using transposed pitch class sets such as the magic chord)
  3. Schoenberg's invention, rules, and suggestions; Hauer's system
  4. Description of basic techniques
    1. Integer notation of row
    2. Mod 12
    3. Matrices: An I-Matrix shows the prime form from left to right, retrograde from right to left, inverse from top to bottom, and retrograde-inverse from bottom to top, being named for the integer on the top or left rows.
  5. Historical summary of Schoenberg's and others uses including more advanced techniques
    1. Derivation
      1. trichord
      2. tetrachord
    2. Partitioning
    3. Combinatoriality
      1. Semi-combinatorial sets are sets whose hexachords are capable of forming an aggregate with one of its basic transformations transposed.
      2. All-combinatorial sets, Six basic hexachordally all-combinatorial sets
    4. Invariance
  6. Final

Hyacinth

[edit] music

a free leson website that you can learn more about this subject go to [1] thanks bye!

[edit] Disambiguity

We should create a page called "dodecaphonism" that redirects to this article. --Pat 02:30, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Only if we think readers are really going to look for this subject under that term. Hyacinth 01:30, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Additions to the outline

The combinatoriality section should also include first, second, third, and sixth order all-combinatorial hexachords. In addition to the definition of these orders, there applications to various theorems could be included. (For example, the pattern of M5-symmetrical and TnM5, TnM7 mappings in first order all-combinatorial hexachords.) In order to arrive at a complete explanation of basic combinatoriality, aspects such as complementation, Tn, TnI operations, and most of Rahn's common-tone theorem should be used as a primer. Inclusion of the combinatorial matrix would also be a good introduction to the topic. I would also include a section on the use of the set-complex to construct a 12-tone row. For this to be effectively achieved, perhaps a seperate article that covers the second part of Forte's "The Structure of Atonal Music" is needed. For a strong introduction to combinatoriality, the section would basically summarize chapter 5.6 of Rahn's "Basic Atonal Theory," as well as some of Perle's text and Babbitt's articles in "Perspectives of New Music." 65.9.15.143 04:28, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

See Combinatoriality. Hyacinth 01:32, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Removed

I removed the following:

  • "In modern music, noted electronic innovator, Tobi Love, used the technique applied to dance music and classical, allowing songs of either genre to switch back in genre comfortably."

I couldn't find mention of Love on AllMusicGuide. Hyacinth 10:38, 17 February 2006 (UTC) Hyacinth 10:38, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] A confusing topic

The twelve-tone technique is a confusing topic, but that doesn't mean the article needs to be confusing. I think that there's some language in the article that would make it impossible to decipher for someone who isn't educated in the subject, so I added the template at the top of this talk page. Smedley Hirkum 18:54, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Which language is confusing? Hyacinth 01:26, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The title of this article is a travesty

By my count it is closer to 11.66666...(etc) not quite twelve, given that A flat can only be written in less than three forms.

"Twelve-Tone System", as a musical term, is flawed and misleading. The compositional system invented by Schoenberg is correctly termed "Twelve-Note System", and this is the phrase that is most often used in Britain. "Twelve-Tone" is a direct translation of the German “zwölf Töne” or “zwölftönig”, and musical Germanisms such as this have been infecting English, especially American English, for over a hundred years, and should be purged from the language.

The terminology may be acceptable in German, but it is not in English. We are really dealing with "notes" here, and not "tones", and it should not be necessary to explain the difference to anyone with a modicum of musical knowledge.

I strogely urge that this article be re-titled.

Cbrodersen 12:34, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. I have seen the term "twelve-tone" used extensively throughout english writing. I have encountered "twelve-note", but only as a rarity. Perhaps this is a matter or regional dialect, but I think you'll find the majority of English speakers use "twelve-tone" (offhand, it wins by a landslide in a googlefight). Also, if you want to look at the music of Schoenberg, the 12-thing groups are only sometimes twelve notes in length, they often stretch on as he repeats small cycles of pitches within the row, but they always have the twelve pitches. I'm not sure where you're going with "infection" of "Germanisms", but whatever their means of introduction into the English lanaugage, the article should reflect the terms people actually use, not one person's personal ethics about what belongs in the English language. I've added a small note at the top about the use of this alternative name for the technique. - Rainwarrior 19:54, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

I completely agree that the music is called 12-note music, and in most of the literature I have read on the matter, that is what it is called - but then, I live in England.

The accuracy of describing the atomic units as notes is as irrefutable as the use of the word "tone" is confusing to anyone, let alone those to whom this subject matter is new.

Encyclopaedias are not here to recycle urban myths, show the results of straw-man polls (like that "Google-fight" - do as many as 300,000 internet users really know or even care about this enough to vote?) or prolong misconceptions held by common usage. Encyclopaedias are here to educate by using facts in their articles and make the subject matter as transparent as possible, not maintain a degree of opacity so that only those who already understand it can grasp the subject.

The "12 pitches" used in a note row are just notes - the pitch is yet to be determined, and there is no indication of their tonal colouration.

Tones are realised and fully coloured sounds - notes are written indications of what the tones will be. Each performer will produce a different tone.

Tones are also steps in musical scales. The twelve-note scale contains 12 semitones - the greatest number of steps in a scale using whole tones is 6.

In German, the word Ton depends on its context - a luxury that is not afforded by the English language.

Note is therefore the term to use in English to avoid confusion between the notation itself, as used in composition, the step in the scale and the finally produced sound.

I hope this finally clarifies the matter - but realise there are those stuck with the abstract notion that "tone" somehow means the same as "note".

User: Certif1ed@yahoo.co.uk / Certif1ed 21:22, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

I personally think twelve-tone is a more accurate term, but this argument aside (Wikipedia needs to reflect actual usage, not the descriptive accuracy of a term), if this is really just a regional dialect issue, I would reccomend you read Wikipedia:Manual of Style#National varieties of English before you make more edits to change the dialect of pages involving twelve-"stuff". - Rainwarrior 22:03, 6 January 2007 (UTC)


Did you read the post above? twelve tone is not accurate at all for the reasons given. It is also not true that an encyclopaedia should reflect actual usage - maybe comment on the inaccuracy of it, but not perpetuate fallacies. This has nothing to do with dialect, and everything to do with facts. MarkCertif1ed 23:04, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
After a couple curse words I still can't believe someone even brought this issue up. Twelve-tone music... in french: Musique à douze tons. All linked with dodécaphonism, Schoneberg, etc... etc... etc... sad... I am gravely disappointed. --CyclePat 22:21, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
French also clarifies the usage through context. The English language has two words "tone" and "note", which have different meanings. Why would anyone be gravely disappointed about this? It's only a reference in an encyclopaedia that few outside of musical studies would ever read. And currently, it's obviously wrong. MarkCertif1ed 23:04, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
Yes, I did read it. I don't agree with it. Did you read mine from earlier? Anyhow, please sign your posts. Just type ~~~~ (it's in the top left corner of your keyboard) at the end of your post and it will automatically be tagged for you. - Rainwarrior 22:38, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't understand why you don't agree, because you don't clarify your position - you just say it's what you think.

You seem to be saying that consensus, or what you think, wins over facts.

I imagine Darwin experienced the same thing :o)


BTW, in the top left corner of my keyboard is the Esc key. (fixed!) MarkCertif1ed 23:02, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Here is my observations and inferences (with proper sources) (feel free to use it in the main article). As per A History of Western Music, a music history book by Palisca which is highly regarded by recent music scholars in University, "Twelve-tone music" is the proper terminology to describe this type of serial music. (Palisca, Fifth Ed., 860) An interesting point of history describes that Schoenberg formulated a "method of composing with twelve tones which are related only with one another" by 1923. As per Palisca, this "twelve-tone" music or "dodecaphonic technique" may be sumarized as follows:
"...the basis of each compostion is a row or series consisting of twelve tones or pitch classes of the octave arranged in an order the composer chooses."(Palisca 736)
We (The composers) are using all twelve "pitches" of the series before going on to the next. Notice that during Palisca's definition he/she is very careful not to say "twelve-note." Now earlier, I also mentioned that Schoenberg formulated this treaty by 1923 (several years after he took a break in composing).(Palisca 736) If you take a look at the etymology of tone and in particular atonal, you will notice that the term atonal is first attested in 1922. [2] Given the close relationship not only in date but in musical époque(History of the twentieth century) I would support the term "twelve-tone music" or "twelve-tone technic." Atonal music and serialism where created during this time and go hand in hand with the twelve-tone music. Furthermore, I would also support the idea that "twelve-tone" is a lot more "popular" than twelve-note (which may have been used to describe the technic itself).(as I believe Rainwarrior indicated). Essentially you have the tonal period (1899 - 1907),atonal period(1908 - 1921) and docecaphonic period(1912 - 1951). (Ulrich, Michels.Guide Illustré de la musique, 1990, p.525). All theses periodes themes deal with tone and not necessarilly notes (which would be secondary material). --CyclePat 00:44, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
Well, other than the usage, I don't agree that "note" is more appropriate than "tone" because the most fundamental part of the technique is that all twelve tones (in this case, meaning pitch-class) are in continual and regulated use. In some serial music, there is one note per pitch-class per use of a row, but this usage is in the minority. Schoenberg rarely uses up the whole row in just twelve notes. Berg almost never. Webern does quite often (it fits his concise style of writing). It's also a minority in postwar dodecaphony as well. The thing common to them all is not by any means twelve notes. It is twelve pitches. But for further exercise, imagine writing for a whole orchestra but being limited to twelve notes per row. Every beat would be the same 12-tone chord. Study a few dodecaphonic scores and you'll see what I'm talking about.
As for context resolving the meaning, we do that in English too. I don't know why you think context belongs only to French or German or whatever. Tone can mean many things. I can mean timbre, it can mean pitch, it can mean note, it can mean sound. If we wanted to be as unambiguous as possible the correct term would probably be "twelve-pitch-class", but this term, while probably more accurate, doesn't do any better job helping the uninitiated understand what it means (and of course, no one calls it that). Similarly, substituting "note" for "tone" clears up the ambiguity, yes, but as I've said, "note" doesn't describe what the composers are actually doing with the technique. - Rainwarrior 01:32, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
As for "concensus over facts", well, this is about language. In language the concensus is the fact. A word has a meaning only because a bunch of people think it means the same thing. Maybe you want a clearer definition for it, but we are no making the term here, we are describing it; explaining it. The only thing important here about the name is that we use the names people use and understand. If people are unclear about what the name means, they read the article. That's what they came here for, actually. They already knew the name. - Rainwarrior 01:39, 7 January 2007 (UTC)


I never cease to be amazed at the passion created over this matter of musical terminology, a passion perhaps exceeded only over the terms "bar" and "measure". It is true that the preferred British usage is "twelve note". However, many British publications employ "twelve tone" rather than "twelve note". Just pulling a few books off of my shelf, I find this is the case with M. J. Grant's Serial Music, Serial Aesthetics (Cambridge University Press, 2001), Robin Maconie's The Works of Karlheinz Stockhausen, 2nd ed. (Oxford University Press, 1990), and Patricia Hall and Friedemann Sallis, A Handbook to Twentieth-Century Musical Sketches (Cambridge University Press, 2004). American usage, on the other hand, universally uses "twelve-tone" and, as Richard Toop notes in his translation of Stockhausen’s Texte vol 2 (in press):

The familiar term "twelve-tone" is American (tone = note), and dates from Schönberg's teaching in Los Angeles.

FWIW, the OED offers some pertinent definitions:

"Note" 7. a. A single tone of definite pitch, as produced by a musical instrument, the human voice, etc. Cf. TONE n. 2a.

8. A written character or sign expressing the duration and (usually) pitch of a musical sound. Sometimes in pl.: (gen.) musical notation; music in notated form.

"Tone"

2. a. Mus. and Acoustics. A sound of definite pitch and character produced by regular vibration of a sounding body; a musical note.

from which it may be seen that the words are often used interchangeably, in British as well as American practice.--Jerome Kohl 02:33, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

What is gravely saddening is that there are people in this world who consider themselves knowledgable about music, and yet cannot understand that there is a difference between "note" and "tone" - the words are not interchangeable.
Notes are unrealised sounds.
Tones are realised ones.
We say "He cannot sing a note" - that means he cannot realise the notes in the piece.
We say "She has a great tone" - that means she can realise the notes in the piece.
We say "His muscles have great tone" - we can see and experience "tone".
We say "She took notes" - but the notes are probably only meaningful to her until they have been realised.
A pitch is a note that has its approximate frequency defined - the note C is not a pitch until you define the octave it resides in.
When you write a note row, you are more concerned about the order of the notes than the pitches of those notes.
There is no need to cite sources - especially from Wikipedia - if you don't understand that there is a difference between note and tone, you cannot fundamentally understand music.
To use the terms interchangeably is unnecessary obfuscation.
MarkCertif1ed 21:10, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
When a technical distinction between "note" and "tone" is to be made, you are of course correct (though the illustration with "He cannot sing a note" is not well-chosen, since this might mean that he has a terrible cold and is therefore unable to produce a tone, despite his complete competence under healthy conditions). In ordinary language, however, I refer to the OED definitions quoted above, and this still has no real bearing on whether the American/British "twelve tone" should be replaced by the insular British "twelve note". I find it extremely ironic in the context of a plea to split (unnecessarily, in my view, since failing to make this distinction obfuscates nothing at all in the context of Schoenberg's technique) a technical hair, that immediately below this discussion appears the marker: "Category:Wikipedia articles that are too technical".--Jerome Kohl 22:25, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Almost two months after this heated exchange, I have taken the cautious step of adding the alternative British term (in the form found in the New Grove), alongside "dodecaphony".--Jerome Kohl 20:34, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

It was actually removed very recently, apparently. - Rainwarrior 04:09, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Erm, what? From the New Grove, or from the Wikipedia article? I just checked New Grove today, and it was still "Twelve-note composition". Your link to the history of Wikipedia doesn't seem to show removal of a reference to this British variant term. Sorry if I am being thick.--Jerome Kohl 06:53, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Ah! Wait! I see! (I guess I really am thick!) I recall seeing that edit a few days ago, which considerably improved the tone of the initial paragraph, but I didn't notice the removal of "twelve-note technique" from the parenthetical addendum. However, the term as used in New Grove is "twelve-note composition", and the previous version did not specify this is a specifically British usage.--Jerome Kohl 16:29, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
I wasn't being very useful anyway, but I meant the article. The link I mentioned shows someone removing the bolded "twelve-note technique" from the lead. Anyhow, the edit you made was good, my comment didn't really mean anything. - 16:29, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Twelve tone, or twelve note, what matters most is that so-called music sounds like shit. As such, it doesn't deserve all this fuss. The subject matter of this article is a travesty, not its title. :) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.139.122.66 (talk) 23:03, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
Please see Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines. This page is for discussing the improvement of the article. If you want to vent go somewhere else. Hyacinth (talk) 01:02, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Computer program generating R, I, RI

Does R, I, RI = Retrograde, Inversion, Retro-Inversion? --CyclePat 03:52, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes, though I think this section of the article should be removed. There is at least one external link to a row-form generator (if that's what the user needs), but even without that the kind of calculation these things do is more or less trivial even by hand (with a little practice a person can easily hand-calculate an entire twelve-tone matrix in about five minutes). This isn't even a computer related topic, and scheme isn't really one of the more widely used programming languages. Who is going to find this useful? - Rainwarrior 06:45, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
Usefullness is in the eye of the beholder. I personally find that the computer matrix generator that I used online was an excellent education tool to learn about 12-tone music. Furthermore, generally historians are pre-occupied with every detail. At wikipedia however, many wikipedian fail to realize the historical significance. Take for example Electric bicycle laws. In october the laws changed and someone decided... "hey! that information is no longer... usefull... or accurate." In fact, the information that this editor removed (and I placed back with a little reformating for historical purposes) was accurate (for that time). Information that is well sourced, and that meets our requirements of wiki rules, should rarely be removed. "usefulness" is a not a wikirule for exclusion. I do not believe we should exclude information because based on our short citedness of "usefullness". (Our "future" generations depend on it...) Back to the law example, we sourced the information but it changed. Though the source might no longer be valide it was at the time and History has a record of this somewhere. I object to the removal. I recomend a re-write. Finally, many tragedies in histories are often linked to the removal or anialition or control of certain information. Take for example the CF-105 Arrow. Unfortunatelly it is difficult to find scematics of this airplane because the program was entirelly scraped (with a conspiracy twist). Let us not kill "the matrix" computer generator. --CyclePat 19:21, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
So, already having two external links to ready-to-go matrix generators, you think we should keep the computer code written in an obscure language that does this as well? Do you think we should have code in other languages too? - Rainwarrior 22:57, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
Yes to the first question! And yes to the second! If we have code in other languages (such as Java, or C++ or musical "notes", or numbers, or scribbles etc...) and it is part of the core subject, obviously, it should be in the article. The programming language Java etc... or whatever programming language is used I believe would be external to the subject, however, 12-tone should point to it. If we are placing code in other languages (music is another language!) then we should try to reference it to a main article. For matrix software I would suggest that if we actually manage to get to the point of discussing the program language, it should be split from this article and place within its own. (Perhaps the article being Matrix Software Generator (Music).) For the code, in reference to the matrix, it should be directly referenced because it is inherently part of the representation of (just like a musical note (which is according to Wikipedia a symbol drawing)) the musical form 12-tone. --CyclePat 00:10, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
I still think it's trivial information, but if it stays I do like the idea of putting these things into a different article. Here's a java matrix generator that's basically about the same functionality as the scheme program. It took about fifteen minutes to write. - Rainwarrior 04:00, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
 // The "TwelveToneMatrix" class.
 public class TwelveToneMatrix
 {
     // row data
     static int row[] = { 8, 7, 5, 10, 4, 11, 3, 2, 1, 0, 6, 9 };
   
     public static void zeroRow()
     {
       // transpose the row to start at C
       for(int i=0;i<12;++i)
       {
         row[i] = (row[i] + 12 - row[0] ) % 12;
       }
     } // zeroRow  method
   
     public static int rowOp( boolean inverted, int transpose, int index )
     {
       // returns an element of the row after inversion and transposition
       if( inverted )
         return (( 12 - row[index] ) + transpose) % 12;
       else
         return (( 12 + row[index] ) + transpose) % 12;
     } // rowOp method


     public static void main (String[] args)
     {
       zeroRow();
     
       for(int i=0;i<12;++i)
       {
         for(int j=0;j<12;++j)
         {
           // print element j of the row transposed to element i of the inverted row
           int x = rowOp( false, rowOp( true, 0, i ), j );
           System.out.print( x );
           if( x < 10 ) System.out.print(" "); // more space for small numbers
           if( j != 11) System.out.print(" "); // space between numbers
         }
         System.out.println("");
       }
     
     } // main method
 } // TwelveToneMatrix class
Okay! I've though about it... that code is related to the subject but it's so far out that it doesn't need to be in our article. (We have enough as it is with people probably trying to understand the concept of the matrix that we don't need to bombard them with how to make a program for it. I would place it in it's own article... as perhaps the afformentioned suggestion. Code should leave the article and be placed in a seperate article. --CyclePat 05:26, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
I definitely agree with that. For now, how about we just keep it safe here on the talk page? The following material was added by SteloKim (talk · contribs) in this edit. - Rainwarrior 06:14, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Computer program generating R, I, RI

You can get R, I, RI easily using computer programming.

A Scheme program:

 (define (retro l) (reverse l))
 (define (inverse l) (map (lambda (x) (remainder (- 12 x) 12)) l))
 
 (define prime-row1 '(8 7 5 10 4 11 3 2 1 0 6 9))
 
 (display prime-row1) (newline)
 (display (retro prime-row1)) (newline)
 (display (inverse prime-row1)) (newline)
 (display (retro (inverse prime-row1))) (newline)

Output:

 (8 7 5 10 4 11 3 2 1 0 6 9)
 (9 6 0 1 2 3 11 4 10 5 7 8)
 (4 5 7 2 8 1 9 10 11 0 6 3)
 (3 6 0 11 10 9 1 8 2 7 5 4)
What does this have to do with the article? Hyacinth (talk) 01:06, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
I didn't think it had much at all to do with the article. That's why I moved it here for discussion. - Rainwarrior (talk) 05:47, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Tone

How is the tone of this article not formal? Hyacinth 19:57, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

It's not not formal. The tag was added by Joeyramoney in this edit, with no accompanying explanation. I've removed it. - Nunh-huh 20:05, 4 May 2007 (UTC)