Talk:Three Kingdoms

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Why shouldn't there be a table of contents for this article? ωhkoh [Т] 13:16, Nov 21, 2004 (UTC)

The lead section should be slashed in half. I think it's safe to add it even now. --Jiang 19:26, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] population of China

Does anybody have any good (or any) sources for the population of china during the Three Kingdoms period? From the few sources I have, the population is reported to have decreased from around 56 million in the Eastern Han dynasty to around 16 million in the Western Jin dynasty. However this conflicts with the numbers listed in Population subsection of the Tripartite of China section (I don't think there's a big population increase from the Three Kingdoms to Western Jin).

I've just noticed this too. There's a huge discrepancy between the census figure of 56 million declining to 16 million as compared to the total population of the Three Kingdoms given as just 7 million! Especially considering the Han Dynasty article confirms that the Three Kingdoms encompassed the whole of China.
So it seems clear that either one set of figures or the other is very very wrong. I'm guessing the census figures are correct (the whole of China with a pop. of just 7 million???) but if someone could provide a full source for these figures - or indeed any other estimates on the page - it would be very useful, thanks. Until then, I think I am going to have to put citation tags on these figures. Gatoclass 12:25, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
I guess the numbers are for civilians, not officers and militants, and did not count the population in Tuntian system. Chen Qun's estimation in 233-236 states that the population of the whole Wei Kingdom was only comparable to the population of a province in the Western Han. Qiu Songzhi's annotation of Sanguo Zhi noted that at the time of the surrender of Shu (263), Shu had a total of 940,000 civilians, 120,000 militants and 40,000 officers. When Wu surrendered to Wei, Wu had 2,300,000 civilians, 230,000 militants, and 32,000 officers. Simao Biao's Sequel of the Book of Han probably only counted the civilians, and gave a population of 5,372,891 at 263 for Wei and Shu combined. Du You's Tongdian summarized these records and set the population at 7,672,881, which is obvious incomplete. Besides, pretty much like native Americans, minor nomadic tribes did not count, in the Hukou system, so did those immigrants worked under the Tuntian system. The Book of Jin records a population of 16,163,863 at 280, probably included those in the Tuntian system. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Skyfiler (talk • contribs) 16:04, August 27, 2007 (UTC)
prehap with the warring period, they would not allow for as detail a census as during the imperial Han period, for population whom were displaced to rural region were probably missing from the records. there is no point administrating when they got nothing left to tax anyway... :\ Akinkhoo (talk) 23:01, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Manpower figures

"In terms of manpower, the Wei was by far the largest, retaining more than 660,000 households and 4,400,000 people within its borders. Shu had a population of 1,940,000, and Wu 2,300,000. Thus, Wei had more than 58% of the population and around 40% of territory. With these resources, it is estimated that it could raise an army of 2,400,000 whilst Shu and Wu could manage 840,000 and 930,000. "

The figure used is questionable: 2,400,000 Soldiers from 4,400,000 people? 840,000 Soldiers from 1,940,000 people? 930,000 Soldiers from 2,300,000 people?

These are the correct figures from Sanguo Zhi. In times of war, usually the maximum population that can be drafted into the army is around 10%.

Wei, 660,000 Households, 4,400,000 People, possibly 440,000 soldiers can be drafted. When Shu surrendered, the record indicated 280,000 Households, 940,000 people, and 100,000 strong standing army. When Wu surrentdered some twenty years later, the record indicated 523,000 Households, 2,300,000 people, and a standing army of 230,000. --152.2.175.178 1:40, 7 April 2006

These are not my figures; these were figures that were previously given. You changed them without citing sources. Now that you've cited sources, go ahead and reinstate your changes if you so wish, and we'll let the community at large decide what to do with them. I'm no sociological historican. --Nlu (talk) 16:35, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

People need to realize that a decline in population is not always attributed to war. While it cannot be denied that alot of people were killed, to argue that the population decline was attributed strictly from incessant warfare is quite illogical. Depopulation could have also occured from inaccurate census taking or migrations. Alot of Chinese civilians could have migrated out of China.As for the census, considering that this was a time of constant warfare, the census takers were probably incompetent or a good portion of the population did a good job of avoiding registration for taxes. These are just plausible things to consider.

I must ask this question - Where there even a billion people in the world at this time? Sumerset {Sumerset|talk} 19:07, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Plagiarism

http://www.answers.com/topic/three-kingdoms

This article is almost completely copied-and-pasted from that site. They even borrowed the images.

No, it's the other way around. They got it from Wikipedia. Look at the bottom of their page. -- ran (talk) 00:31, Mar 24, 2005 (UTC)

Great. Now I feel stupid.

Don't... everyone misreads something now and then. And welcome to Wikipedia. ;) -- ran (talk) 23:30, Mar 24, 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Portraits from Koei games?"

I'm not too familiar with copyright and fair use rules, so could someone please clarify if I (or anyone else) could use an image of a character from the Koei historical figure the character portrays?

RealmKnight 00:51, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

Response.

as long as the person cites the page there is no problem. to cite a page can be easy but it can be hard in easy terms all you have to do is example:let's say where it says picture there's a picture and all you have to say is picture taken from and you write the website

picture picture taken from Koei.com

Cec018

is it possible to take screenshots from the koei game?(win 95 game) i'm not too sure how to take screenshots & potraits though.

danz80

err shouldn't koei character be in koei rtk(game) article? there are much more historical drawing of said character for this historical article. i am confused; obsolete topic? Akinkhoo (talk) 23:05, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Regarding 'The Way of Peace'

I thought it was 'The Essential Arts of Peace'? Or was that just something as portrayed by Luo Guanzhong?

i believe "the way of peace" is the translation for “太平道”, guess the Chinese for "The Essential Arts of Peace" is "太平要术"? if so, it was a book which Zhang Jiao claimed he obtain it from an immortal, said to be contained magical spells and things like. i forgot if it was fabricated by Luo ,or Zhang Jiao really boasted the book in history.

[edit] Start-end

The article says: "In a strict academic sense it refers to the period between the foundation of the Wei in 220 and the conquest of the Wu by the Jin Dynasty in 280."

Wouldn't the Three Kingdoms start in 222, when the third kingdom (Wu) was founded, and end when the first kingdom (Shu) ended, in 263? In 220-221 it was only two kingdoms, and after Shu's downfall it was only two kingdoms. Unless someone disagrees, I'm going to change it to 222-263. --Cao Wei 00:22, 9 April 2007 (UTC)