Talk:The Pied Piper of Hamelin
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[edit] Grimm
This story is not to be found in the Brothers Grimm Collection of Fairytales. Is it possible that it is under a name other than The Pied Piper of Hamelin? If so that title must be noted on this article.
Apex156 (talk) 11:48, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Children as a Metaphor
It mentions a theory that the children willingly abandoned their parents and town to form new towns on the Eastern Frontier. A theory not mentioned, but very similar, is that "children" is metaphorical for men and women (and some children) who were born and raised in Hamelin but left for the frontier. While it may have been a "willing" migration for some, it is also speculated that these people were part of a forced migration in order to 'Germanize' Eastern Europe, and the Pied Piper, in his elaborate garb, was metaphorical for a royal figure who ordered the migration. This theory is not addressed specifically as a forced migration of adults. The loss of native Hamelin residents via force, a painful happening, was then commemorated with the church window. I won't edit the article, but will put this out there for discussion.
24.149.202.97 (talk) 14:05, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Side Note
I have removed the ridiculous 'side note' about how some anime series came out before power rangers and therefore blah blah blah. This has absolutely nothing to do with this topic.
[edit] PIED??
Why pied? Wiktionary lists it as the past of "to pi" or "to pie" but I see no reason to choose either verb as the proper origin of this "pied". This info is required.
- Pied: 1. having patches of two or more colors, as various birds and other animals: a pied horse. 2. wearing pied clothing. [Origin: 1350–1400; ME; pie2 (with reference to the black and white plumage of the magpie)] Drutt 12:18, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
- Much thanks to Drutt for providing the etymology. But don't you think the word is obscure enough nowadays to warrant an explanation in the article? Keep in mind, people from all over the world are reading the English Wikipedia, not just native speakers. Still I'd bet the average American wouldn't be able to explain what pied means without consulting a dictionary. Plus I'd bet the word might even be too rare for most smaller dictionaries. --BjKa 07:22, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Serious revisions needed
Whoever last edited this article was apparently playing some joke, because it provides no sign of the origins of the story or even explains how it plays out!
[edit] new section on contemporary literature added
My first wiki-edit here, so hopefully I didn't munge anything up. I added a section for contemporary literature, and an item in that section. I also changed the heading capitalization for "The Tale in Film" to "The tale in film" - I'm not sure what the standard is, but that matched what I'd seen on several other pages. Maldrin 18:38, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
[edit] 66.66.175.93's comment on Terry Pratchett
I don't think The Amazing Maurice and his Educated Rodents is really a version of the Pied Piper story as such. It includes a character whose business is to go from town to town and to drive out the rats with a magic pipe, in an area where such professional pipers are not unheard of. In other words there is a clear reference, but that is as far as the similarity between the two plots goes. J Alexander D Atkins 19:05, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] ABBA - Hamelin
ABBA fans might have seen a connection between the Hamelin story and the band's famous "The Piper" song, judging by the lyrics:
"We're all following a strange melody We're all summoned by a tune We're following the piper And we dance beneath the moon We're following the piper and we dance beneath the moon for him and we dance beneath the moon sub luna saltamus." (chorus)
If this is true and there is a link between them, it should be posted on the main article of both the band and the story.
[edit] Other version of the story
Here's what William Manchester has to say in his book A World Lit Only by Fire: "The Pied Piper of Hamelin... was a real man, but there was nothing enchanting about him. Quite the opposite; he was horrible, a psychopath and pederast who, on June 20, 1484, spirited away 130 children in the Saxon village of Hammel and used them in unspeakable ways. Accounts of the aftermath vary. According to some, his victims were never seen again; others told of dismembered little bodies found scattered in the forest underbrush or festooning the branches of trees." (p.66) Note that the date in this version is 200 years later than the one in this article. Obviously, this version of the story is biased, but I'm going to add some of it (with a reference).-Elizabennet 22:14, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
does this "historian" cite a source? 700 years later he comes on with a theory never mentioned before???--Tresckow 00:36, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
- Uh... you may have a point. Honestly, it never occurred to me to doubt Manchester (I'm going to attribute that gullibility to the fact that I read it in high school). I went to the Straight Dope and found this entry analyzing the section and its heritage. It sounds like Manchester kind of made up all the lurid details, but we know the Pied Piper was somehow involved in the disappearance of a group of children (apparently the rat reference was added in the 1500s!). -Elizabennet | talk 22:41, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
[edit] An earlier musical reference
FWIW - About 1931 the Ray Noble Orchestra, with singer Al Bowlly, recorded "The Pied Piper of Hamelin" at the Abbey Road Studio. A neat song; I found the 78 version when I was a kid in the '50's, and wore it out! Source: Vocalion recording #CDEA 6010, "The HMV Sessions 1930-1934 Volume 2" Jim Kleiser jdksailnospam@gmail.com
[edit] The Amazing Maurice
The Amazing Maurice and his Educated Rodents is mentioned twice in the article. Also, the mention of an engineered plague is a little confusing - people may think of the bubonic plague, rather than a plague of rats. Andjam 11:25, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] "Pay the piper"
The claim that the expression "Pay the piper" derives from the Pied Piper legend needs to be supported by a reference, or removed. Another English expression, "He who pays the piper calls the tune", does not appear to have anything to do with the Pied Piper, but rather with requesting a tune at a dancing party where a (bag) piper is playing. Similarly, the idiom "to pay the piper" may just mean to pay the bill once you have enjoyed the entertainment. - Also, the claim that "facing the music" has anything to do with the Pied Piper needs to be substantiated. Nasorenga 16:56, 6 February 2007 (UTC) For a skeptical point of view with respect to a connection between "pay the piper" and the Pied Piper legend, see this link. Nasorenga 18:10, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] facing the music
- Well, having just removed reference to the phrase "face the music" without reading this first, I'm pleased to see this comment.
- I don't believe there is any association between the phrases, other than there is a reference to something musical in both. I would agree that the phrase "pay the piper" comes from "he who pays the piper calls the tune". Any association with the "Pied Piper" probably postdates it, bbut it is easy to perceive that there might be an association, because of the problem of the piper having been unpaid.
- As for "face the music", it's got nothing to do with this topic and doesn't belong here. This is not the place for a general discussion of the occurrence of musical terms in English expressions.
- The other matter of concern was the total muddle of a sentence concerning the so-called "Pied piper" effect in pedophiles. The information was valid, but the sentence never mentioned that it was pedophiles who have the characteristic that was being described by the author, and left one to wonder if perhaps it was the author himself.
- --Amandajm 12:45, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
[edit] more on paying the piper
-
- The expression has two parts- He who pays the piper calls the tune.
- "Call the tune" has often been used without the first part. eg.Someone approaching a verbal confrontation might say "This time, I'm going to call the tune!" (lead the discussion along the track the party desires.) The phrase has taken off on its own, without the "He who pays the piper...". However, it is probably essential that the speaker feels (for whatever reason) entitled to "call the tune".
-
- Likewise, perhaps "paying the piper" has aquired an extra meaning, disassociated from the right to "call the tune", and has become associated with a somewhat more sinister notion- the unpleasant consequences of not paying the piper (ie. the Pied Piper).
--Amandajm 13:09, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Stained Glass Window
Does anyone know more about that illustration used, reported to be a copy of the stained glass window? Text in the article, plus the very distictive art style, indicate it's not so much a copy as a 16th or 17th century 'reconstruction' of some sort, based on descriptions of the original window. --76.18.93.72 21:56, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
[edit] The "Verstegan" date
of July 22 1376 is not an error but a deliberate falsification of the legend in 1605 in order to make it apply to a totally different event. This was the death of Simon Langham, Archbishop of Canterbury AND Cardinal of Avignon.He "drove the secular clergy from their college of Canterbury Hall, Oxford, and filled their places with monks". "Pied" refers to his bicoloured dress, scarlet and purple, of these two warring appointments. It perhaps also signifies 'tainted' or 'spotted'. His death marked the end of the facetiously named 'Babylonian Captivity', or 70 year exile of the Papacy to France, after which his 'children', the 13 cardinals, danced back across the bridge from the Papal Palace (famous for its choral music) to Rome, 'toutes en rouge'. ("How many miles to Babylon? Threescore and Ten").The bridge was too narrow for dancing in a circle. The legend is further anglicised by 'Verstegan' in his specious and spurious version, by trying to confuse the original Hamelin with Hamelin Plantagenet,aka Hamblyn;he was the son of the first latin king of Jerusalem and married Isabella de Warrenne,from whom descends Richard "Copped Hat" Fitzalan, 3rd Earl of Arundel. Hence the peaked hat of the Piper, and the Kopped Hills.Journalist Richard Rowlands was a recusant Catholic with a secret press at Smithfield, with the later pseudo 'Verstegan'. Simon Langham incurred the displeasure of Edward III by accepting from Pope Urban V the appointment of Cardinal of Avignon without having obtained Royal permission.In retaliation, Edward took the extraordinary step of pronouncing the see of Canterbury void, and seizing the revenues; i.e. he declined to pay him for ridding the town of 'protestant rats'. It is hardly credible that a learned antiquary could have accidentally got the date so completely wrong; besides which, there is no record of any other important event occurring on that date.Colcestrian 02:51, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Expo67 Montreal - Bob Gimby1967 - Ca-na-da Song.jpg
Image:Expo67 Montreal - Bob Gimby1967 - Ca-na-da Song.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
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BetacommandBot (talk) 21:45, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Political Connotations
What is the relevance of this section? It seems more like an editorial than a part of an encyclopedia entry. This should either be further elaborated on to connect it more to the Pied Piper or removed altogether. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Puddum (talk • contribs) 21:47, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Mekeo (Papua-New Guinea) version
The following story was told by my elderly mother-in-law over fifty years ago - she had no English, and I believe it is a genuine old folk-tale with no link with the "European" version. It has many references to "custom" - including obsolete ones, like eating game rather than domesticated pork at a feast. I have left out some references, out of respect for the "owner" of the story.
Cassowary was an ugly sorcerer. The people of his village were in awe of his magic powers, but not afraid to use them to cure their sick children or make their gardens grow. Eventually however they grew jealous of his success in hunting and fishing, and drove him away into the forest. He plotted a terrible revenge. First he played on his magic panpipes, gathering all the animals of the forest into a hidden valley. Then he magically changed his appearance, so that he could pretend to be a messenger from the chief of another tribe. In his disguise he re-entered his old village, and invited the people to a great wedding feast in another village. As part of their preparations they went hunting - in order to capture animals to take to the feast for meat. Their hunting was completely unsuccessful, until, just three days before they had to leave for the feast, the hidden valley Cassowary had driven the animals to was discovered, and all the strong young men and women went there to gather meat for the feast - leaving their children with the old people. Cassowary returned to the village again - this time in his own shape, but playing once again on his magic panpipes. All the old people were paralysed, so that they could not move or cry out, but the children all ran from their houses to listen to Cassowary's magic piping. When they were all gathered he told them to gather their dancing finery and paint their faces for dancing. For himself, he put on an old blacked grass skirt and an old gourd head dress with no feathers in it. He told the children they would rehearse a new dance for the feast - then he started beating his magic drum - so that all the children were bewitched, and followed him (dancing) into the forest, and were never seen again.
But Cassowary became a great flightless bird, followed to this day through the forest by a train of his own children.
OK it's not the same story - but there are lots of spooky parallels! The moral (don't upset a piper if you have children you love) is obviously the same. I hesitate to put it into the article itself, for several reasons - but just in case somebody enjoys it.
--Soundofmusicals (talk) 21:45, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Pied vs. Pie-eyed
These words are similar sounding but do not mean the same thing. The article points out that the expression "pie-eyed" has sometimes been used to parody "pied" piper. It's just a typical comedic play on words, and instead of standing alone, it deserves an explanation for the benefit of a reader who might not get it. "Pie-eyed" means drunk or intoxicated. That doesn't mean the pied piper was drunk, either. It's just a joke used in cartoons and so on. Comedies of that era are full of plays on words. Nearly every WB title and every Stooges title, for example, is a play on words of some kind. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 03:11, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
