Talk:Suez Crisis

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There are serious questions to be raised as to the neutrality of this article viz a vis the British.

You're right. It does seem a tad unfavorable to the Brits.

Contents

[edit] Aftermath

After retiring from office Eisenhower came to see the Suez Crisis as perhaps his biggest foreign policy mistake. Not only did he feel that the United States weakened two crucial European Cold War allies but he created in Nasser a man capable of dominating the Arab world.

Really? I can't find a reference for this. thx1138 05:40, 20 February 2007 (UTC)


I agree, that doesn't sound true to me...

I can't find that either. I'm going to remove it as there's no reference for it. If one can be found, that person can feel free to replace it with a link. Fatla00 00:16, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Article Bias

de gaulle launched france's nuclear programme against Ussr and everybody else including the us (veto) and british who abandonned the israeli and french allies in the middle of the war. france gave nuclear technology to israel according to the sèvres protocol. later aftermath: in 2002 de gaulle followers chirac and de villepin opposed the us and uk in the invasion of irak... feels like déjà vu. Shame On You 19:41, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Some possible bias I see here is in this: "Three months after Egypt's nationalization of the canal company, a secret meeting took place at Sèvres, outside Paris. Britain and France enlisted Israeli support for an alliance against Egypt." Where is a source proving that Israel was enlisted rather than the one doing the enlisting? Since this seems to fall into the Israeli-Arab conflict category, it seems odd to say this without a source. This was not repeated in the Protocol of Sevres article, interestingly.--Shink X 01:13, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] ain't part of cold war?

why not? since khrushchev threatened to attack us with nuclear bombs. Shame On You 19:43, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] uk in its glory -even in its fall- as ever

operation musketeer/mousquetaire reads like the british were commanding or infiltrated among the french units. actually the british and french had two different targets and zones. i've watched a documentary telling the RAF raids missed their targets... while the french mirage IV didn't, maybe because the french were still in war since 1946 in indochina, following in algeria. the documentary told the us president put the pressure on Eden, threatening to devaluate the pound sterling, the public opinion was against war in england too. the french were already in war in algeria by that time, so it did minor change (the communists were against as ever) compared to the situation in uk. due to the us pressure, Eden had to withdraw his troops, but he didn't warned his allies france and israel! the french troops advance was blocked at some point by the british positions. this perfidious move from both the uk and us changed the look of the french on the cold war allies (see the help in indochina). hence the french atomic bomb, quit from NATO and fuck off for irak in 2002. i mean this article reads from the uk pov as ever. the documentary i've seen spoke as the French-English operation... Eden came the second day only at Sèvres, Israel and France had already have a discussion without the british. according to the documentary Eden was clearly against the invasion from the beginning even though his hatred for Nasser. the french were already in war so it was different. israel was close to france, france was close to britain, but there was a tension between britain and israel by that time. i mean maybe the british role is overrated and its sudden retreat (thanks to uncle sam) without warning underrated. it had strong backeffects however. the doc said it was because of suez that britain lose its colonial empire and submitted itself to the us until today. suez explains de gaulle's position against both the uk and us. doc said nuclear targets where everywhere on the map, it included the two of them. it was a major diplomatic crisis indeed. from the french pov it had a strong impact on the french commnding officers since the military operation was a succes but politicians wasted everything turning a military victory into a defeat. it happened before in indochina, the us felt the same in vietnam. and it happened after in algeria hence the generals upheaval (see the 1961 coup or putsch as you like). finally the french governement acted against the army in algeria toon hence the cease fire and retreat, and the OAS renegade organization. feels strange how the us don't use the experience of the french and finally experience the same failure. indochina became vietnam, and algeria is the same as irak. by 1958 the french had pacificated the revolution, but it lasted with terrorism, and finally civilian opposition and pressure see what's happenning in irak, it's all the same. it will end the same. [tv doc: L'affaire de Suez, le pacte secret - 2006 now available on emule] Shame On You 17:26, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

actually the british were commanding the operations. a french official "assisted" each british commander for each arm ground, aerial, airborne, etc. learn this in the archive news. wasn't in the doc. supreme commander was british General Keightley (he's dressed in white reviewing french paras in an archive video posted here), french comander was admiral Barjot. i guess the original invasion map was designed by israeli COS Moshe Dayan and french COS Challe, since the british delegation was of diplomats not strategists during Sèvres. so the british could had negociated execution role as a counterpart. this is only a supposition though. Shame On You 22:24, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] missing infos on nasser's violation of treaty of 1954!

according to french news, nasser was supposed to not nationalize the canal built by the french until 1968 as agreed by a treaty involving egypt and britain too. LES ACTUALITES FRANCAISES, AF - 01/08/1956 the archive news video shows a meeting at downing street between Lloyd (foreign affairs secretary), Murphy (an american politician) and Pineau (foreign affairs minister). comment says in 1954 by signing the evacuation of the canal by the british, the regime of the canal was garantee until 1968. so what nasser did was a violation of the egyptian-british treaty of 1954. Shame On You 01:31, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] lacks infos

lacks infos on

  • landing training in algeria,
  • Operation Amilcar and
  • objectives change and hesitation between french and british about just getting back the suez canal or overthrowing Nasser hence Operation Musketeer Revised (opération mousquetaire révisée).
  • also the French paras were dropped over the south of Port Said not only Port Fouad. the article only mentions the british.
  • the beaches where the french landed were mined but the egyptian had left when they saw the invaders so the remote controlled claymore did not made casualties.

Shame On You 02:13, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] videos

damn i have too much archive videos now. i will move some in the operation musketer article and others in the operation amilcar.

is it me or it looks like a colonial expedition? :)

they thought it would be ok and nobody would notice them... LOL Shame On You 03:28, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

additionnal material (from the french ministry of defense archives), comments and scipted notes are useful for the article.

[edit] timeline notes

the french landed in port fouad on november 6th, invasion was called "egypt expedition" (expédition d'Egypte), 2eRPC airborne unit embarked Nord-2501 on november 5, 10eDP (10ème Division Parachutiste) embarked ships from Algiers on october 22 1956. source: defense archives www.ecpad.fr, keyword "suez" Shame On You 16:32, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

The Suez canal was not opened in 2009. Someone needs to find the correct year. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.102.106.105 (talk) 23:44, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] free world gentlemen invaders...

it should be noted in the article isn'it? french news said egypt civilians were warned about dangerous zones to evacuate long before the dropping operations - hence some egyptian troops had run away. also before the agnlo-french retreat and the end of of the egypt expedition, the french gave food (army supply) to the civilians. pic dec.19 1956 + detailed note (report #947) Shame On You 17:00, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] operation telescope 4 nov + operation musketeer 5-6 nov details

1st: 1st wave of airborne enters in action, 2nd Anglo-british fleet (named "Task Force") delivers marine infantry through landing craft, while LVT Alligator bring LST (Landing ship tank) on the Port Fouad beach.

departure from cyprus nov.4: 2eRPC briefing/operation telescope launch full report with live pics & comments in french ops report #887

operation musketeer nov.5: port said south full report with live pics & comments in french ops report #886

2eRPC had to meet the british panzer unit at port said (brit tank models were "Centurion").

operation musketeer nov.6: port fouad full report with live pics & comments in french ops report #868

Shame On You 17:20, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] units from algiers & french government's goal

oct.22: departure of Gen. Massu's 10e DP from algiers - full report w/pics + report #663 Shame On You 17:29, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] end of Anglo-French ops

british's unilateral cease fire on 6th november, completion of anglo-french forces withdrew on december 22nd 1956. report #947 (nice introduction to the crisis' background) Shame On You 23:17, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

french withdrewal, dec.1-30 1956: pt.1+ report #946

french withdrewal dec.22 1956 full report w/pics+report #1012 Shame On You 00:55, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] A point of clarification

I feel the following point needs clarification, for me at least. The British stake in the canal was purchased from the Egyptians as the article says, but it says nothing of the British stake in the canal after nationalisation. What I am trying to understand is, were the British out of pocket (without the canal as an asset or money as payment) after the nationalisation or were they reimbursed financially? Did the nationalisation then amount to stealing? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.158.19.9 (talk) 22:24, 30 April 2007 (UTC).

actually the suez canal which is a french work -the british were against from it's very beginning!- due to sir Ferdinand de Lesseps (see the great German documentary "Durchbruch Bei Suez"!), was exploited not only by the brits but also by the french leaving only 3% to the egyptian. recently i've watched a bbc documentary ("The Other Side Of Suez") about the suez crisis, the british focused on, sir Eden and just forgot to speak a word about the french... an excellent doc is "Affaire de Suez, le pacte secret". all of which were broadcasted on TV and are now available on emule. Shame On You 18:59, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
Wow. This I never imagined there was this much intricacy to the economics behind the Suez Canal. But I cannot help but wonder if this really belongs in the Suez Crisis article, or in the Suez Canal article... Screen stalker 23:01, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Disputed

[edit] Key figure completely excluded

How come that one of the key figures, UN Secretary-General Dag Hammarskjöld, is not mentioned one single time in the article? - Historian —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 213.132.125.46 (talk) 17:17, 9 May 2007 (UTC).

In this UN text [1] the Secretary-General is mentioned over 100 times!

This article: "The United Nations Peacekeeping Force was Lester Pearson's creation and he is considered the father of the modern concept "peacekeeping"."

Contradiction in UNEF: "in large measure as a result of efforts by secretary general Dag Hammarskjöld and a proposal from Canadian minister of external affairs Lester Pearson."

United Nations [2]: "This historic development was made possible mainly through the vision, resourcefulness and determination of Secretary-General Dag Hammarskjöld and Mr. Lester Pearson, who was at the time Secretary for External Affairs of Canada."

This article is not accurate.

- Historian 213.132.125.46 17:35, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Historian, as far as I am concerned, you are welcome to add information about him to the article. The more comprehensive the article is, the better. Only be sure that the information is accurate and well-sourced (which, based off of what I've seen that you have posted so far, doesn't seem like it will be a problem for you).
Oh, and don't forgot to log on. Screen stalker 22:58, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
Since (a) this is not truly an objection to the factual accuracy of the article, but rather to how comprehensive it is, and (b) there has been no comment on this subject in a week, I am going to go ahead and remove the contention tag. If there are strong objections, please feel free to reinstate it and discuss them. Screen stalker 19:56, 21 May 2007 (UTC)


The portion of the article stating the British Helo-born assault was the worlds first is incorrect. The U.S. Marines conducted a helo-borne assault in the Korean war. Using H34 Helicopters to move an infantry battalion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.178.51.173 (talk) 15:29, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] What happened after..?

I'm rather curious how Egypt used the canal after the war. It says they opened it up in 1957, but to whom? Did they keep the embargo on Israel, how about the rest of Europe?

[edit] Egyptian casualties

650 KIAs are casualties only in fighting with British/French troops. This figure comes from The Suez Crisis of 1956 article, which deals only with British operations. On Sinai front Egyptians had about 1000 additional KIAs (can't provide link right now). 195.248.189.182 20:22, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Section on events leading to the crisis

I have placed a POV template on this section.

Some of the problems:

  • States that the "closing of the canal" was one of the events that "contributed most" to the crisis, and then devotes considerable space to discussing this issue. But that interpretation is not at all supported by the literature I have read on the subject.
  • Fails to mention Nasser was legally entitled to nationalize the canal and that he agreed to fully compensate shareholders.
  • The next section deals with "Arab economic and military pressure on Israel" which in fact had little effect on the Israeli economy. Indeed this alleged major reason for the crisis doesn't even warrant a mention in most accounts. Yet here it gets a substantial section to itself which has been promoted to near the top of the list of reasons for the war.
  • Mentions the attacks by the Egyptian fedayeen but fails to mention the punitive operations carried out by Israel in the same time frame.
  • "Egyptian arms deal" section fails to mention that following Nasser's arms deal with the USSR, Israel concluded a similar arms deal with France, thus restoring the balance of power.
  • The main reason for the attack on Egypt - fear of Nasser's growing power and influence - gets no more than a couple of lines in the middle of the section. Redundant due to recent additions, see update below.
  • "Anglo-Franco-American diplomacy" section implies that Nasser refused to compromise, and that negotiations were over. IIRC neither statement is correct.
  • "Protocol of Sevres" section says Britain and France "enlisted Israel's support" for the war, implying the war was primarily their brainchild. But Israel was a prime agitator for the war. Ben Gurion wanted an even bigger war, against all the surrounding Arab states. So the account given here is misleading to say the least. Gatoclass 04:25, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Update: A lot of new information concerning Anglo-Egyptian relations has been added in recent days. The information is presented almost entirely from a British point of view, and I believe the amount of detail on this single aspect of the conflict violates WP:UNDUE. So the article still needs a lot of work to conform with NPOV. Gatoclass (talk) 05:04, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Don't understand this:

"...Egyptian liberty to close the canal implied Israel's right to traverse the Suez Canal..." surely the word should be contravened?

IceDragon64 (talk) 21:20, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] End of hostilities question

"The operation to take the canal was highly successful from a military point of view"

As I understand it, british troops didn't make it further then about 20 miles down the length of the canal (see, e.g., http://www.historynet.com/wars_conflicts/20_21_century/3037501.html?page=3&c=y, and others - some sources seem to say no more then 10 miles). I don't see how that can be called "highly successful" in any way. Israel's operation in the Sinai to destroy the Egyption army there might be called successful, but that's about it.

Is there something I'm missing? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.69.212.74 (talk) 02:12, 29 February 2008 (UTC)