Talk:Succession crisis

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1 Other types of councils
2 Capitalization
3 Move to Succession crisis (Latter Day Saintism)?
4 TCOJC Section
5 Membership numbers?
6 RLDS/CoC change
7 Unsupported text

[edit] Other types of councils

Finally, in 1844, Smith created the Council of Fifty to be the "living constitution" of the "Kingdom," which, in turn, sustained Smith as "Prophet, Priest and King." This council consisted of both Church members and non-Mormons who were prominent in the Nauvoo area. Smith also created the Anointed Quorum, an inner group of strong and trusted Church members (both male and female) who recieved Temple endowments and "the fulness of the priesthood" from Smith. Others who were given priesthood keys include those who served in the First Presidency, the Quorum of Three Witnesses, and the Associate President of the Church, Hyrum Smith.

I think this sentence is a little confusing here because the Council of Fifty and the Annointed Quorum are not part of the succession. However I did not just remove it because I think it helps the reader understand the confusion that existed. Example (talk · contribs) 04:42, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Just a quick note, I'll try to expand later - both of these groups were crucial in support of Brigham Young during the crisis. They consisted of Smith's most inner circle and en masse supported various individuals. These groups held keys (of the Spiritual and Physical kingdoms) which became the argumental factor in succession - who held keys.

One item I should have included was the presidency of the Church in Zion (Whitmer, et al.) they were all excommunicated, but were given keys independent of Stakes of Zion of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. -Visorstuff 14:57, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Capitalization

Is the "Succession Crisis" really a proper name? I'm not sure why it's capitalized. Cool Hand Luke 08:15, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Also, I think the article should be titled Succession crisis (Mormonism), in accordance with the naming conventions. If there's not objections after a while, I'll change it. COGDEN 20:17, Jan 28, 2005 (UTC)

I changed my mind. I think a better name would be Latter Day Saint succession crisis. Any comments?

I like Succession crisis (Mormonism) best. To me this is a Mormonism issue, not a Latter Day Saint issue. It also takes into account the cultural aspects. -Visorstuff 23:33, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I vote for Succession crisis (Mormonism). I think that's more in keeping with the standard that is being developed on Latter Day Saint related articles here. Sorry I named it wrong to begin with! --John Hamer 21:03, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Move to Succession crisis (Latter Day Saintism)?

Though the historical term "Mormonism" does apply to this time period, the first sentence says "Latter Day Saint" - a term used more often nowadays to include groups outside the modern "Mormon" (LDS) church. So, so call this the succession crisis of "Mormonism" implies that the modern "Mormon" position on the succession crisis is correct, which would violate NPOV. --Nerd42 23:39, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

The existing procedure regarding this nomenclature at WP:LDS has been to include the entirety of Joseph Smith restorationism under the term Mormonism. This is a lot bigger than just this page -- try the talk page at WP:LDS. cooki e caper (talk / contribs) 23:46, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Why have the Latter Day Saints in there at all. Should Succession crisis redirect here, since there is no article with that name currently? Bytebear 01:46, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Would 1844 Succession Crisis work?Jcg5029 22:15, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

I like the idea of moving to Succession crisis. I think I'll do it. We can always move it back if there happens to be some other succession crisis article. As to Latter Day Saintism, that has been proposed before, but nobody calls it that in the literature. I've thought about the possibility of (Latter Day Saint movement), but that's getting to be a pretty long parenthetical. Since we can't coin terms for article naming, somebody needs to publish an article advocating a better term, but I don't know what that would be. The best term in my opinion, Restoration movement, often used by the Community of Christ, is already taken by the Disciples of Christ, and would be ambiguous. COGDEN 00:56, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Me gustaJcg5029 21:39, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] TCOJC Section

Sections on the historical line of succession for the LDS Church and the claims of Strang up until the organization of CoC (reorganized). Would a small section below these two on succession through The Church of Jesus Christ be appropriate. I feel it would expand the page and give a broader perspective of the movement. Jcg5029 13:10, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Membership numbers?

The Temple Lot-ers article specifies 5K members, and 12K members of the Elijah-messagers. This Succession crisis article specifies 12K Temple Lot-ers and an unknown number of EMers. Anyone able to reconcile those numbers? Thx. TheEditrix2 17:10, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] RLDS/CoC change

The Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints went through some changes to become the Community of Christ. Apparently there were groups that didn't agree with those changes so they left the CoC to form new "Restoration Branches," yet there is no mention of any of this in this article. Would it be appropriate to mention it? -- Macduff (talk) 21:05, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Hello Macduff, I think this article is about the history immediately after Joseph Smith's death. The schisim within the Community of Christ is most appropriately covered in that article and in the Restoration Branches article itself. BTW, weren't the Restoration Branches attempting to recover the RLDS name? What is the status of that now? --Storm Rider ^(talk) 21:18, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Hi Storm Rider - yes, I agree that the Restoration Branches are technically outside the purvue of this article. I only suggest it because I was initially confused when I was trying to learn just what the Restoration Branches were and there was no mention of it here. This article does mention the name change from RLDS to CoC - perhaps just adding a few words to that same sentence to the effect that there were some spin-offs at the same time, with a wikilink to the Restoration Branches article. As far as the current status of the Restoration Branches' possible efforts to gain legal control of the RLDS name, I have no idea. -- Macduff (talk) 07:27, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

I have two things that I think should be done. They can be done separately, but I think that they should both be done.

In the See also section, there should be a link to this and other later splits.
The main branches of the Latter Day Saint movement needs to be fixed:
1. The title is in two different fonts.
2. For the Community of Christ branch, it should show the original name and the new name should show when it was renamed.
3. Also on CoC branch, the schisms that later developed should be shown.

With these two changes, the introductory paragraph can then reference these two sections with wording like, "This article covers the schisms which developed around the death of Joseph Smith, Jr. For others and their relationship in this movement, see <diagram> and the See also section." This is rough wording, but you get the idea. — Val42 (talk) 05:25, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Unsupported text

Per WP:Verifiability, the following text has been removed from the main page because it has been tagged as having no sources for over three months. Feel free to add text that is supported by inline citations. --Eustress (talk) 14:52, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Unless I am mistaken, aren't there fact tags from February 2007, June 2007 and October 2007 in this article? Wee bit longer than three months for some of them, especially when I have seen pro-mormon editors pull sections of articles when a fact tag has been up only a few weeks. Duke53 | ^Talk 05:59, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

This has been fixed, by someone besides either one of us. Unless I am mistaken, if any were missed, they could be fixed or deleted by anyone, even you. — Val42 (talk) 04:53, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Background section

Joseph Smith Jr. organized the Church of Christ on April 6, 1830. Between that time and his death in 1844, both the church and Smith's role within it expanded. Even prior to the formal establishment of the church, Smith held the title of "Prophet, Seer, and Revelator," a title unanimously supported by the other founding members of the church.

Because the church was "organized" rather than legally "incorporated," its property needed to be held in trust by a trustee; ^{[citation needed]} Smith became the church's Trustee-in-Trust.

Initially, the highest leadership position in the church was that of "elder," and church elders were sometimes called "apostles."^{[citation needed]} Smith's initial title in the church was "First Elder," while his friend and associate, Oliver Cowdery, was given the title "Second Elder." In March of 1832, Smith created a quorum of three presidents known as the First Presidency. Smith became President of the First Presidency, a title which became associated with the office of "President of the Church"; Sidney Rigdon and Jesse Gause became Smith's counselors in the First Presidency.

On December 18, 1833, Smith created the office of "Patriarch over the Church" and ordained his father, Joseph, Sr., to fill the role. The "Presiding Patriarch," as the office came to be called, often presided over church meetings and was sometimes sustained at church conferences ahead of all other church officers. ^{[citation needed]}

On February 17, 1834, Smith created a High Council in Kirtland, Ohio. This body consisted of twelve men, headed by the First Presidency. The Kirtland High Council took on the role of chief judicial and legislative body of the local church and handled such things as excommunication trials and approval of all church spending.

Several months later on July 3, 1834, the High Council of Zion was organized in Far West, Jackson County, Missouri [1]. This High Council in Zion is also known as the Presiding High Council, for it was designated to preside over the council established in Kirtland, as well as all future High Councils at the various Stakes of Zion (LDS D&C 107:37 [2]). Cases tried in the standing High Councils of outlying stakes were regularly appealed to the High Council of Zion, it being the penultimate court standing only second to the First Presidency. The Presiding High Council also provided clearance for ordinations in the standing High Councils at the Stakes of Zion.

On February 14, 1835, nearly one year after the Kirtland High Council was organized, the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, "or special witnesses of the name of Christ in all the world" was formed as a "Traveling Presiding High Council" (LDS D&C 107:23-33 [3]; RLDS Church History 1.18, pg. 503 [4]). This council consisted of twelve men, called and ordained by the Three Witnesses of the Book of Mormon to the office of Apostle, and appointed to oversee the missionary work of the church--meaning that their presiding role was outside of the Stakes of Zion. Thomas B. Marsh was set apart as their president. In practice, while both this group and the High Council in Zion were Presiding High Councils, their jurisdictions were divided with one as “standing” ministers over the Stakes of Zion, and the other “traveling” outside of the Stakes. Initially, the Quorum of the Twelve was subordinate to the High Council of Zion; for example, in 1838, when vacancies arose in the quorum, it was the Standing Presiding High Council at Far West that filled the vacancies.

When the High Council in Zion was dissolved after the church was expelled from Missouri, the headquarters of the church were moved to Nauvoo, Illinois. There, Joseph Smith formed a new Presiding High Council, led by William Marks, which supervised the High Councils of outlying stakes, under the direction of the First Presidency.

In 1844, Smith also created the Council of Fifty to be the "living constitution" of the "Kingdom," which, in turn, sustained Smith as "Prophet, Priest and King." This council consisted mostly of prominent Latter-day Saint associates of Joseph Smith, but contained a few prominent non-Mormons from the Nauvoo area ^{[citation needed]}.

Smith also created the Anointed Quorum, an inner group of strong and trusted Church members (both male and female) who had received the temple endowment. Others who had been given important priesthood authority in the church were the Quorum of Three Witnesses, the Associate President of the Church, Hyrum Smith, and earlier, the Presidency of the Church in Zion, which included David Whitmer and William Wines Phelps ^{[citation needed]}.

After re-reading the section, I agree to let it remain for now, as it does have some citations...I hope more will follow. Best --Eustress (talk) 22:17, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

I disagree with any removal of wholesale sections simply due to the "citation frenzy" of the past year or so. Deletion or "hiding" when questions occur do not help us build the encyclopedia. Individual sentences should, of course, be brought to talk for discussion. I always prefer a group effort at sourcing/ documenting/ writing to the use of templates, "tagging" and appeals to Wiki policy. As to this particular section, there are several good citations. I agree that most of the sentences still awaiting sources are a little nebulous. Some of the less well known issues could be removed from the article, or put into better perspective. As the section appears, to me, to be trying to show why there were questions on the succession on JS's death, a good rewrite might enhance the meaning and reduce questions. WBardwin (talk) 03:37, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Talk:Succession crisis

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[edit] Other types of councils

[edit] Capitalization

[edit] Move to Succession crisis (Latter Day Saintism)?

[edit] TCOJC Section

[edit] Membership numbers?

[edit] RLDS/CoC change

[edit] Unsupported text

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