Talk:Sega Saturn

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Contents

[edit] Off the shelf components

"Many of the ancillary chips in the system were "off of the shelf" components. This increased the complexity of the design since less custom hardware was used."

Given the ratio of custom or semi-custom (masked programmed) components compared to off-the-shelf parts, the Saturn is almost entirely custom. Note that the cost is also much higher for these types of components than a simple RAM or other minor function part such as the DAC or RGB encoder.

Custom: VDP1, VDP2, SCU, SCSP, PLL, Mask programmed: SMPC (Hitachi microcontroller), SH-1 (Hitachi microprocessor), BIOS ROM, Off-the-shelf: CD controller, SH-2, 68EC000, RGB encoder, DAC, SDRAMs, DRAMs, SRAM

Using off-the-shelf parts makes a system design *less* complex, not the opposite.

"Rumours suggest that the original design called for a single central processor (making for an excellent 2D gaming experience but with very limited 3D capability), but a second processor was added late in development to increase 3D performance."

There is absolutely no evidence given, even in the form of presenting the source of the rumor. We should stick to facts only rather than wild speculation. Given the earlier architecture of the 32X and the fact that a second SH-2 has very little to do with 3D performance whatsoever (the SCU DSP and VDP1 relate more to that) this statement is misleading and inaccurate.

Custom chips increase the design cost, but usually leads to a higher degree of integration which in turn means lower manufacturing costs. Which of these is more beneficial is then just a question of volume. In any case there are some hints that both video chips originate from some Hitachi chipset, and the SCU DSP is referenced in several Hitachi patents unrelated to the Saturn so it probably either was or became a standard soft DSP for custom designs. --85.156.236.246 15:01, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
I agree with the above. The complexity issue has to do with the fact that Sega had to use more off the shelf microprocessors to achieve the same goal than if they had used fewer custom components with a higher degree of integration. So, in that regard, yes....it was needlessly complex because you had to get all these chips to work in perfect harmony.
On the other hand, it remains to be seen what would have happened if Sega used off-the-shelf microprocessors of a higher spec. Say, a single SH-2 at a higher clockrate (which Hitachi offers, but maybe not circa 1993), and a single VDP of greater capability. But given the sorted history of the machines development (vis-a-vis trying to compete with the leaked Playstation specs) and without the benefit of hindsight, it's a debatable point.
Overall, I kinda get the gist of what the article, as written, is trying to convey. And I believe it to be accurate. Kensuke Aida 10:37, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Video capabilities

I think it was in bad form to have comments about the video section written into the article instead of put in the discussion page.

The Saturn has EDTV (640x480 progressive) and Hi-Vision (704x480 progressive) support. The latter has a higher horizontal refresh rate and isn't just more display space allocated to the overscan area of a regular 640x480 display.

This has been used by homebrew programmers and is listead in the VDP2 programmer's manual as one of the screen modes selectable with the HRES2-0 bits. For Hi-Vision you also have to change the system clock as all video timing is derived from it.

RGB, S-Video, EDTV, Hi-Vision output are *standard* on all Saturns, the only thing you need is the right cable. So rather than say optional I mentioned you needed a cable, and flagged the composite video as standard as all Saturns included a composite video cable.


[edit] Memory clarification

Should this statement "combined with SDRAM to make the main 2 MB memory area" be rewritten or clarified?

The low work RAM and high work RAM are physically segmented in memory and are not contiguous at all. The drastically slower DRAM compared to SDRAM also has an impact in how the memories are used (program code almost always goes in high work RAM, for example).

On second thought, maybe it's not too critical to fix.

[edit] PoV?

Radiant Silvergun, a title released in 1998 by Treasure, is considered by many as the best shooter of all time.

Panzer Dragoon Saga, which came on 4 CDs sold out immediately upon its US release and has since become one of the most collectable domestically released games ever.

NiGHTS Into Dreams, a title released in 1996 by Sonic Team, is considered by many to be one of the groundbreaking titles in the 2.5D Genre

It'd be nice to have sources, or refrence to those three entries; who are the "By many" who are so vaguely referenced to?

      • As far as Radiant Silvergun goes that really is an opinion based statement, I might remove it. As far as Panzer Dragoon Saga goes, just look at its going price on ebay, Few if any normal domestically released games fetch the prices that it does. So that statement is definitely accurate. As far as NiGhts goes it's groundbreaking in the sense that it's one of the first. That might be a POV as well but all things considered I don't feel it should be removed.
The Sega Saturn was released on November 22, 1994, in Japan; 170,000 machines were sold the first day.

Could we see some statement in the first sentence that the Sega Saturn is a video game, if I am right in surmising that that is what it is? I came to this page thinking it was a car. Michael Hardy 20:10, 27 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Oh, and while we're thinking about this obscure page: I came here in order to properly direct the link that now goes to the transparency disambiguation page. I am uncertain which of the "transparency" pages it should go to. Perhaps someone can attend to that. Michael Hardy 20:10, 27 Oct 2003 (UTC)

I'd like to note that Saturn does have very powerful hardware transparency, but it is difficult to use because of the interactions between VDP1 and VDP2 (i.e. it's possible to get corrupt rendering if operations are not carefully performed in the correct order). Also I suspect that there's something like a 6x increase in the rendering time because of the per-channel transparency. -- Anonymous

--

The overhead for transparency is 2x (one framebuffer read before each framebuffer write as opposed to framebuffer writes only) as the transparency ratio is fixed rather than being variable. Ditto for shadow processing where framebuffer pixels are read, darkened (fixed ratio again), and written back.

You can get additional overhead by using the color look-up table modes as those require VRAM access to look up the colors, as AFAIK they aren't cached. Otherwise the color is 'free' as it comes directly from the framebuffer (packed 5:5:5 BGR) or from VDP2 CRAM.

[edit] Rewrite?

[edit] Saturn Models

US and Canadian Saturns are nearly the same. Consequently, they are referred to as "North American" or "NA" models.

I have been told that European and Australian Saturns are identical, although I don't know that for sure. It would make sense since the AC voltage and TV standard is the same for both.

Japanese models are self-explanatory.

All Saturns are either NTSC or PAL. There was no SECAM Saturn. The "SECAM" Saturn models released in France were PAL models with a converter.

I'm not sure about the rest of Asia or anyplace else. I would assume that places like Hong Kong or Korea would probably get the Saturn, but I can't say for sure. Hong Kong is weird in that it's offically PAL as a former British colony, but they have a VERY strong NTSC market thanks to their proximity to Japan.


This really needs to be cleaned up. Barneyboo 15:11, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Yuji Naka quote or Yu Suzuki?

Something about this quote seems off to me "Yuji Naka is rumored to have said 'I think only one in 100 programmers are good enough to get that kind of speed out of the Saturn.' I remember reading the article this quote was taken from in Next Generation magazine, only it was an interview with Yu Suzuki not Yuji Naka.

I could be wrong, but I also remember in this interview Yu Suzuki was talking about the difficulty in programming Virtua Fighter for the Saturn. Suzuki went on to say that only 1 in 100 programmers would be able to utilize the dual SH-2's to gain 1.5 times the speed only a single SH-2 would provide.

Does anyone else remember this interview?

I don't really remember the interview, but I'm pretty certain Suzuki made the quote. --Shadow Hog 00:36, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I've now added the full quotation, which was included in an article on the Saturn in a "Retro Special" issue of Edge magazine (which I think was a reprint of an earlier article in the main magazine). --Nick R 13:22, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Modding

Would it be appropriate to talk about modding the Saturn on this page? --Anonymous

[edit] U.S./Canadian models

I've got a MK-80000 with a notched power cord. I've been told of a model 1 that didn't, but it was a very early model 1. Further revision of that section is probably needed. --Anonymous

[edit] SSF/Emulation

Emulation of a Sega Saturn and commercial games was possible FAR before 2005 or SSF, the earliest being GiriGiri, which, iirc, was released in 2000. 71.224.246.205 21:15, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Girigiri could barely run games in 2001 and only worked on a bunch of videocards, on some cards it displayed nothing more then just garbage. SSF was into developement since 1999 (and possibly earlier) and could run a few games even on those early versions. It got well known in 2005 only because cpus were fast enough to run the emu at full speed (with the advent of dual core cpus which SSF supports to an extreme amount), and it was at this time when the emulator got sound support implemented. It had a compatibility rivaling that of girigiri-gav as early as in 2002, although speeds were very poor (2-3fps or so). And is the emulator section really needed? If so, some parts should be cleaned up, this stuff about SSF and many things about Cassini which is nothing more then a very cheap hack of girigiri-gav, with absolutely no improvements made by the developement team - everything they added was stolen from somewhere, be it a utility of some kind or game specific INI settings (for these latter, you can even copy them back to girigiri-gav and get all the improvements that users from a japanese BBS submitted and collected by testing hundreds of games). The worst part about it was that they removed all kinds of credits and claimed the work as their own. Their "disassembled source" was infact a junk ASM file that they got from an autodisassembler.

[edit] Splitting the article?

While trying to improve some of the writing and add some context to some parts of the article (e.g. "Consumers also noticed a change of marketing strategy at Sega of America" - I think the majority of consumers will have failed to notice this entirely, what with not being American and all), I received an error that my edits would put the article above 37 kB in size. I therefore think that the article probably needs splitting up or streamlining. The most obvious thing to me seems to be to branch off the technical spec and/or the models into a separate article and keep this one for historical context with perhaps a small summary of the technical stuff.

What do others think? - ThomasHarte 21:56, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

I think the models would be a good start for a spin off (maybe some people would make photos of each saturn model for WP), but I wouldn't branch the technical stuff since half of it is important if you want to compare it to other consoles. Maybe there's a chance for the tech's a spin off when the needed information is kept in the article. Processors and memory are important if you want to compare it to the playstation while the power source is quite uninteresting. --32X 00:42, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] cartridges?

Since when does the Sega Saturn use cartridges? I have one and there's no cartridge slot. 68.194.16.14 03:08, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

I would suggest you look a bit closer at your console then, since the slot is rather prominent on the rear top portion of the console. this image demonstrates where the cartridge goes.
The cartridge slot is used for peripherals such as the expanded storage area for more save games. I think the modem may also have been plugged into the slot. --CCFreak2K 22:23, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
At least that X-Band alike modem used the cartridge slot: [1]. --32X 23:11, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Some information about Saturn models

-50,000 units of Skeleton Saturn? At Sega of Japan's official "SEGA HARDWARE Encyclopedia"[2], there is the information that Skeleton Saturn was sold 30,000 limited.[3][4] Does the source of this number(50,000) exist?

-Oval button Hi-Saturn exist. Oval button one is MMP-1 (BIOS1.01)[5] Round button one is MMP-11 (BIOS1.02)

[edit] Sales ranks

From the article: "At one time, the Sega Saturn held second place in the console wars, placing it above Nintendo's Super Famicom in Japan and Nintendo's Super Nintendo Entertainment System (SNES) in North America and Europe, but the Saturn slowly lost market share to Sony's PlayStation and, outside Japan, the cartridge-based Nintendo 64."

I don't think this is correct. The Super Nintendo article has it outselling Mega Drive/Genesis by a good margin. I would think this would especially be the case late in the game when Saturn hit as Genesis had more than a year's head start. Ace of Sevens 04:50, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hidden Music Video

Hidden Music Video This is True, If you have the older Jimmy Hendrix Smash Hits(i belive this is the right henderix cd), and play it in the US Sega Saturn. You will be treated to a crude music video for all track, its images that kind of scroll around. Has anyone else experienced this with other cd???? --Robwsc56 22:16, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Look up CD+G

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CD_G —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 62.64.211.30 (talk) 21:15, 23 December 2006 (UTC).

[edit] number of sold units (edit war)

Here we go:
(diff) IP 69.150.41.38 changed it from 10 to 25 million units
(diff) IP 67.190.40.19 changed it from 25 to 10 million units
(diff) IP 67.190.40.19 changed it from 10 to 25 million units (own change reverted)
(diff) 32X (that's me) changed it from 25 to 10 million units

de:Sega Saturn: "10 Millionen"
es:Sega Saturn: "10 millones"
sv:Sega Saturn: "10 miljoner"

Has anyone a reliable source at all? --32X 18:40, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Some more information: IP IP 69.150.41.38 changed the number of sold units in Sega Game Gear, Sega Mega Drive/Sega Genesis, Sega Saturn and Sega Dreamcast (rev without an edit war). Changes were made in Console wars too: [6], [7], [8].
IP 67.190.40.19 did Changes on the first three mentioned articles. --32X 01:20, 10 August 2006 (UTC)


[edit] VDP clocks

The statement that the VDPs are "running at 7.1590 MHz on NTSC Systems, 6.7116 MHz for PAL Systems" is vague probably not correct.

Both 6.7 and 7.16MHz clocks are available on both NTSC and PAL systems for generating the 320-pixel-wide and 352-pixel-wide screen modes, respectively. Although I would expect a slight NTSC/PAL difference here (like 7.16 vs. 7.09MHz), does anyone know for sure?

As for the internal speed of the VDP and VRAM bus speeds, I can only guess that they are equal to the pixel clock or some multiple thereof. --24.24.90.150 01:04, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tomb Raider level design

"Tomb Raider was originally designed for the Saturn's quadrilateral-based hardware and as a result was incapable of displaying levels containing any triangular parts."

Quad-based 3D engines are capable of drawing triangular shapes, you just have two corners with identical coordinates. Either way, the primitive is unlikely to have had much of an effect on Tomb Raider's level design. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 62.64.211.30 (talk) 21:20, 23 December 2006 (UTC).

[edit] Operating System on the Saturn

What proprietary operating system is on the Sega Saturn? Please reply.--67.10.200.101 04:08, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

"This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Sega Saturn article.
This is not a forum for general discussion about the article's subject."

Please ask such questions at the Wikipedia:Reference desk.—WAvegetarian•(talk) 06:41, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Marketing techniques

Since movie apparitions are being listed, should it be added that in the 1998 movie Telling You, there are some scenes featuring the Saturn? At least twice in the movie the main characters are shown playing Worldwide Soccer together. The Sega Saturn console and controllers are also clearly visible in these scenes.

[edit] selling at a loss

"Traditionally most videogame hardware is sold at a loss to allow for a price point low enough for quick adoption. With Sega having the market all to itself, it saw no reason to sell the system at a loss when demand was high in the marketplace."

Any evidence to support this statement? I believe that the current xbox, ps3, etc. are sold at a loss but traditionally (or in other words, before the Saturn) I doubt that this was the case. I'm inclined to think that previous systems (which in Sega's case were cost-reduced mutations of their own arcade machine hardware) were simply less expensive to make, whereas the Saturn was a doomsday machine meant to fend off Sony at any cost. 66.24.11.194 03:09, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

It's a true statement insofar as console manufactures usually don't net much profit on the core hardware (although to say its always done at a LOSS is stretching things...PS3 is a very extreme case). Their primary profit centers are software, peripherals, and (especially) licensing. The Saturn was unusual in the sense that it was cutting edge when it was initially released in the US and Sega felt the $400 price tag was justified. Without a very diverse catalog, sales suffered accordingly. You'll note they reverted to the more traditional (and more competitive) pricing scheme when the PSX finally hit the market. As for being a "doomsday machine", that's an oversimplification. SoA and SEL was financially very healthy at this point in time. They gambled on their (relatively) good name by overpricing the Saturn just long enough for Sony to respond. Although there is ample evidence that late in the Saturn's development there were certain reservations voiced by the engineers at SEL about the PSX's capabilities (ergo, extra processors were added). Kensuke Aida 21:15, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Number of Video Codecs used on Saturn

Cinepak and Truemotion are most widely used along with Mpeg on a couple of Japanese games. Is that it or did any company use anything else.Atirage 07:05, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

It's been a LONG time since I've done an update to or even looked at my overbloated Sega Saturn FAQ (previously used by editors in a much earlier revision of this article), but I recall C's Ware had a Codec called "Lucid Motion" (or somesuch) that they used on EVE: Burst Error, and whatever the hell the sequel to that game was (it's been awhile). IIRC, it was pretty damn impressive in terms of quality, but only useful for anime style art. Kensuke Aida 09:27, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Removed Shenmue as example of capabilities

I don't believe that citing a game that never was finished as support for the machine's capabilities is realistic. There could be any number of reasons for the game never being released, including their inability to get it running well enough. There are way too many variables to say this game proved anything other than the system was not right for the game (in whatever way that was the case). --Swaaye 02:35, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

According to AM2, they spent two years on the Saturn version before moving development over to the Dreamcast (hardly an insignificant amount of time). The videos show the game running on stock Saturn hardware. As far as I'm concerned, they speak for themselves. Why they moved it over the Dreamcast is immaterial to the fact that the Saturn was (obviously) able to handle the character models (albeit at MUCH reduced quality). It also offers a nice NPOV counterpoint to people who insist the Saturn was *always* crap at polygons. It should be re-considered for inclusion. Kensuke Aida 09:59, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Floppy Drive

My aunt had a sega saturn and i clearly remember it having a 3.5 inch Floppy disk drive add-on for storing saved game information, and was compatible with Windows 3.1 and Windows 95, as the console's instruction manual stated. Should we mention it somewhere? RingtailedFox 19:01, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Absolutely, when you can get some more concrete information on it, perhaps with some sources, we will add it to this article. John2kx 19:22, 17 July 2007 (UTC)


The drive was mentioned in the first edition manual for the Saturn. But as far as I'm aware it was never released (at least in the U.S.) Neo Samus 19:01, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
This guy's selling the saturn floppy drive...i guess it was a japan-only perhiperal, like the Famicom/NES and Super Famicom/SNES floppy drives... [9] RingtailedFox • Talk • Stalk 15:56, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
The floppy drive was JP only, although I knew an engineer at SoA who swears up and down it was mentioned in the English language development kit for the Sega Saturn (he sent much a bunch of PDF files, but they've since been lost to time). It never caught on and is rather rare. It was one of the three or four peripherals that used the serial port on the back of the console.
As for being Windows compatible. I couldn't really say. It would all depend on how the floppies were formatted. I know for a fact that you could download save files from the internet through the Netlink. It's possible you could do it through the floppy disk.
If anybody needs any sources for anything feel free to look at the Saturn FAQ I compiled and wrote years ago. You can find it on GameFAQs. The author name is John Hokanson Jr. or J Hokanson. I don't mind people using it since it's semi-abandoned, but I would appreciation citation credit. Kensuke Aida 09:36, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Merger proposed (Arcade Racer Joystick)

The following discussion is archived. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

The result was Merge Arcade Racer Joystick into Sega Saturn, by silent consensus. --B. Wolterding 17:03, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

I propose to merge the content of Arcade Racer Joystick into here, since the notability of that article has been questioned. In fact it seems to be a non-notable product per WP:CORP, since no sources are given that would discuss the joystick (independent of the console). The short article Arcade Racer Joystick may contain relevant information in the context of Sega Saturn, but then the information should be merged.

Please add your comments below. Proposed as part of the Notability wikiproject. --B. Wolterding 08:34, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.


[edit] # and type of processors...

Many of the ancillary chips in the system were "off of the shelf" components. This increased the complexity of the design since less custom hardware was used. Rumors suggest that the original design called for a single central processor, but a second processor was added late in development to increase potential performance.

The above is somewhat misleading and should be rewritten.

The second VDP was added late in design. Not the second SH2. Extremely early prototypes of the Saturn had another CPU (rumored to be a V60 CISC processor at 16MHz as used in the Model 1), which owning to compatibility issues, wouldn't have worked with another processor type anyway. When they decided to switch to SH2s, the specs always called for dual CPUs.

Also, the multi-processor architecture was in itself a major headache, but it was also an open secret at the time that Sega's SDKs were absolute crap (I heard the kinda fixed them later on, but it was a bit too late for many developers). Bottom line is it wasn't the major death knell that everybody makes it out to be. Sega simply dropped the ball on supporting their hardware for the benefit of 3rd parties (and in some cases, their own in-house programmers).

Overall, this needs to be cleaned up and clarified.

Kensuke Aida 10:26, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree that this rumor needs to be removed. Rumors should not be included in the article because they are not facts. The Sega 32X used a dual SH2 configuration and predates the Saturn; furthermore the 32X manuals clearly state this setup was done to familiarize programmers with the upcoming Saturn. It seems clear that the choice to use two CPUs was done at an extremely early point, rather than a "me-too" response to the PlayStation. We could argue about when development for the 32X/Saturn started in comparison to the PSX, but the easiest solution is to maintain article integrity and not include rumors - unless we can cite an article stating the rumor such as EGM or another publication from that time period.

Could you please clarify about your source for the V60 information? The 32-bit V-series CPUs were in a legal quagmire due to their compatibility with x86 CPUs; for this reason that series was pulled out of the US market and NEC pulled all documentation about it, leaving a mysterious gap in their product lineup. I strongly doubt Sega would have had the influence on Intel to reverse this situation to the extent where they could mass produce a game console; furthermore while the V60 had moderate performance, the SH-2 beats it hands down. Given Sega's tight relationship with Hitachi, not to mention that almost all the components in the Saturn come from Hitachi, and that the entire CD subsystem is based around a Hitachi SH-1, it seems odd that they'd stick with an older, legally troubled, underperforming CPU when I am sure Hitachi was pushing Sega to use their latest chips for performance reasons.

Furthermore the architectures are completely different; SH2 has a 27-bit address bus and 32-bit data bus, V60 has a 24-bit address bus and 16-bit data bus. This alone would take significant reworking to shoehorn a SH2 in place of the V60. They aren't drop in replacements for one another. If we can provide a citation for that rumor, great, but I honestly don't believe the Saturn was ever intended to be based on the V60 at any point in its development. Certainly there were Sega arcade systems using the V60, but there seems to be no evidence the Saturn was to use it as well; furthermore consider Sega's last arcade system used the truly 32-bit V70 to get more performance out of the aging architecture. If they were going to use a member of the V-series for the Saturn, wouldn't that have been a better choice? I think it's obvious that they used neither, and had no plans to. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.110.28.229 (talk) 17:59, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] As a classic console

Should this section even be here? It's only redeeming value seems to be the "it gathered a cult following around the world" part, and that can easily be put into any of the other sections.

and what was up with the "(because they are weak)" part when explaining why casuals don't want a Saturn and show no interest?EAB (talk) 23:40, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Backwards Compatible?

Did the Saturn have any backwards compatibility with Sega CD games? Or games from any other system? Maybe add a note under "Compatibility" as to whether it did or did not. I've never owned either system so I don't know the details. Number3son 17:31, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

It wasn't, I know from personal experience trying it out.
There may have been some kind of hack, but I wouldn't know. ʄ!•¿talk? 23:11, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] classic console chapter removed

While I agree with what the chapter read, it can't be cited or referenced and makes the article look like garbage. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Radicalfaith360 (talk • contribs) 03:50, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] DirectLink Merge proposal

I'm proposing that DirectLink be merged here, as it's been tagged for some time with notability concerns. What do people think? Gazimoff WriteRead 10:49, 25 April 2008 (UTC)