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[edit] Pro-Russian?

I had no idea Russia was such a pinnacle of human civilization! My god, I've been brainwashed by these American imperialist dogs!

Seriously, though, I think Wikipedia's usual anti-US bias, though somewhat understandable in today's world, has reared its head again here. To me at least, this article seems concocted to play down all criticism of Russia, past and present, and spin everything to sound as though any criticism is just the result of Western imperialism. I particularly liked this sentence:

"While many reforms made under Putin’s rule have been generally criticized by Western nations as un-democratic,[75] Putin's leadership over the return of order, stability and progress has won him widespread popularity in Russia,[76] as well as recognition abroad."

Darn those "Westerners", criticizing "reform"! At least the rest of the world gives him "recognition" for the "return" to "progress" that he "led".

Come on folks, I'm not saying Russia is the big evil boogeyman it was painted as during the Cold War, but every nation has problems and it's OK to talk about them openly and honestly, without trying to play them off. 24.174.30.146 (talk) 03:08, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

There are no problems with the example that you have provided, Putin was the Head of State in a period of political stability, economic growth and a considerable improvement in public order, if only accounted for by the much increased numbers of policemen patrolling the streets. However, at the same time, there was a reduction in "democracy" in that electible candidates have largely become Kremlin's candidates (which still has not stopped an occasional Communist politician winning a mayoral election); and the was increased intrusion into privacy, freedom of speech and assembly -- which have drawn widespread criticism from the West, but only limited criticism from within Russia itself.
Nowhere does the article imply that Russia is problem-free and generally a paradise that everyone should move to.158.143.215.84 (talk) 20:25, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

"Come on", "seriously", do you think that US is "a pinnacle of civilization"? Somehow nobody thinks this way outside US (I guess this will be too a huge surprise to you, especially if you get most of your information from US TV and US newspapers - just guessing based on your Texas IP-address 24.174.xx.xx...) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.237.244.226 (talk) 02:55, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Children

I was surprised to find nothing in this article about child porn or child abuse (beating children). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.165.242.219 (talk) 03:56, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Does it have anything to do with Russia? As far as I know, there is child porn, and beating of children in every country. EliAS 15:51, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

I exert corporal punishment on my kids here, in US, if thats what you're pointing at, and I know many other people who do. As for child porn, you probably know better. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.91.10.69 (talk) 23:08, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Problems

I have removed several problems with the article:

This table contradicts other sources about the size of the Soviet economy by saying that it was $500 billion at the time of the Soviet collapse. The CIA factbook and other sources say the size of the Soviet economy in 1990 was $2.65 trillion or at least $2 trillion at the time of its collapse, of which Russia accounted for something like 60%.[1][2]

"a 150% increase in real rates" -

It doesn't say this in the source.

"The UN estimates that about 12.1% of Russians live on less than 2$(PPP) per day according to their most recent available data between 1990 - 2005, most of whom are pensioners and low skilled workers in depressive regions." -

This data is outdated. It's based on data between 1990-2005, when the average wage was several times lower than it is now.

"As the Soviet Union, Russia was traditionally very strong in basketball. At the moment they have various players in the NBA, notably Andrei Kirilenko, although they are not considered as much of a basketball force as some of their Eastern European counterparts such as Serbia or Lithuania. However in 2007, Russia defeated world champions Spain to win Eurobasket 07.

After the post-soviet rot of football in Russia, it has recently undergone a huge revival. Not only is the Russian system producing more and more talented Russian players (evident in Russia's fantastic form on the international stage), but the Russian league, with a new injection of funds from the government and various companies, is now the wealthiest in Eastern Europe and has attracted much foreign talent as well as Russian talent. Russian clubs have had great success in European competition recently: CSKA Moscow won the UEFA cup in 2005 and Zenit St. Petersburg repeated this feat in 2008." -

Besides a couple of facts like winning Eurobasket in 2007 and the UEFA cup in 2005 and 2008, this is original research and opinion.--Berkunt (talk) 00:32, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Sigh not this again. That chart is based on nominal GDP, you're talking about PPP GDP. Two very different measures. Look at the source of the image, and in the future remember that according to WP:V wikipedia requires verifiability not truth (meaning you can't remove reliably sourced information based on what you personally believe). Krawndawg (talk) 03:25, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
No, if you read the sources I provided they do not say the Soviet Union's GDP is based on purchasing power parity methods. When you have sources contradicting each other then you can't put one set of information that is directly contradicted by another (several, in fact) source. This nominal GDP table is misleading anyway because it implies that Russia's economy is 2.5 times larger than it was during Soviet times when in fact it has only recently recovered to the Soviet level according to this source (and others I have read) - ("After a decade of growth, Russia is still only back to the level it reached just before the fall of the Soviet Union" (Feb 28th 2008) [1])--Berkunt (talk) 04:56, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
Again, you're talking about purchasing power. They might use the term "international dollars" instead of purchasing power, but it's definitely not in US dollars or "official exchange rate" as the CIA factbook puts it. Look at this list and compare it with this one and you'll start to see what I'm talking about. The Russian economy in PPP surpassed 2 trillion in 2007 (hence it surpassed the Soviet economy in PPP), in nominal its still only 1.3 trillion. You can check the IMF website and see the entire history of Russia's GDP growth in both nominal and PPP (though I think they base their nominal figures on current US exchange rate, so the nominal GDP in 1992 would be even lower than 500 billion). If there are any contradictions, it's the fault of the other figure and the fact that it doesn't say what method of measurement it uses. That should be fixed, rather than removing a reliably sourced chart (The BBC knows more than you or I). I don't see anything contradictory in the actual article anyways. Could you point out what's being contradicted? Krawndawg (talk) 16:18, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
I also just checked that CIA factbook link and it doesn't give any GDP figures for the USSR. It gives GNP figures, but that's completely different.Krawndawg (talk) 16:29, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Regardless, my second point was that it should be a purchasing power parity graph anyway because money wasn't as important in the Soviet Union as in countries with market economies because the government controlled all means of production and received all revenue from enterprises, that is why it is better to put a purchasing power parity graph rather than a nominal GDP graph. That is why all sources that compare the size of the Soviet and US economies ay that the Soviet economy was about 50% of the size of the US economy, or $2.6 trillion. If they used "nominal" figures it would be more like 10-20% of the US economy but nobody says this because it is more valuable to compare output rather than exchange rate, especially since money wasn't as important in the Soviet Union as in countries with market economies. For instance, we don't write on the Soviet Union article that the size of its economy was only $500 billion, do we? Neither does the CIA. The nominal GDP table from the BBC is misleading because it relies on the exchange rate rather than the output of goods and thus implies that Russia's economy is 2.5 times larger than it was during Soviet times when in fact it has only recently recovered to the Soviet level in real terms. It is better to compare their economies in real terms, ie the actual value of goods produced compared to each other, rather than based on exchange rate.--Berkunt (talk) 04:26, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

I understand where you're coming from, but that's entirely based on the assumption that the reader is only interested in comparing Russia to other countries. Nominal GDP is important in its own right, so unless you have a PPP chart to replace that one, why remove it altogether? It's still useful information about Russia's economy and shows the recession/crisis/boom throughout the years, which is the most important part in my opinion. I don't think it's misleading because a PPP chart would still show the same general trend, just with different numbers. Krawndawg (talk) 22:59, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
As Doopdoop agreed with me, a real GDP chart is needed, not because it is useful in comparing Russia to other countries but to compare it to its past, a nominal chart is misleading because it says that the Russian economy is 2.5 times larger than at the dissolution of the Soviet Union when in real terms the Russian economy has just recently recovered from the trauma of the 1990s.--Berkunt (talk) 04:17, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
Doopdoop has no idea what he's talking about as is clearly evident in all of his posts. He's just on the bandwagon of "lets remove anything positive about Russia from the article for any random reason we can think of". But anyhow, do you have such a graph that shows PPP? I was thinking about making one myself using the same format but haven't gotten around to it yet. I won't bother if you can supply one however. Krawndawg (talk) 05:12, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Russia is a Superpower

Russia is a superpower[2] [3][4] [5] [6][7] [8] because they have the economics[9] [10], the wealth[11] [12], the diplomatic power[13] [14], ideological[15] [16] [17][18][19][20], technological power[21] [22][23][24][25]& advances[26] than any other country besides the United States (look here on why the US is losing its superpower status read here:[27][28][29]) reconizes Russia as a superpower [30], they have the cultural sector and lets not forget their military forces (supreme). Russia is also the largest military arsenal producer in the world (they hold 73% of the world market) and they have the worlds largest nuclear weapons arsenal than another other country (newer & older which many are reconditioned as new again) which is 5 times greater than the US has.

So Russia is a Superpower and lets not forget a Space Superpower, remember Russia has a Mar's mission coming up in 2015 [31]to 2024, also a Moon space station planned for 2015[32] without NASA but Russia going by itself; which NASA is out of funding due to a poor current US economy, 2007 & 2008.

Russia is a Superpower, that's plenty of facts in the bag to state they are in that position. Now look at the United State's position[33][34] link title [35]), think what they are in for, a lot in the bag on the whole US economy on all sorts of issues, I suggest you read about before making such false insults on Russia. (talk) --Versace11 (talk) 10:20, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

"Superpower" refers to the Soviet Union there. The sentence structure is a bit awkward, yes. --Illythr (talk) 22:09, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
Not true, read above.--Versace11 (talk) 10:20, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
Good points, US is losing its superpower and Russia comes right back again. A good book on Russia as a superpower is called Russia in the 21st Century: The Prodigal Superpower by Steven Rosefielde 2004 [36] The book is about Russia intends to reemerge as a full-fledged superpower before 2010, challenging America and China and potentially threatening a new arms race. Yet with the all the stuff on CNN about them saying Russia is a superpower again, I believe they already are the superpower just without the 15 post Soviet countries they once had. Personally I am impressed considering how broke they were and how Russia paid off its entire deficit in 2006 from 15 years of paying off debt and turning all the post soviet military agencies down in 1991, everything has all been funded for and turned on again, all running again as it did. Really I have to give them hands up for that and Putin, his presidency he is favored almost more than 80% (look at George Bush, he is favored lower than 23%, everybody wants him gone). The Russian’s aren’t dumb, that’s for sure but the United States and the heat of water they are in right now, nothing to laugh about now.
Russia isn't playing around; they are playing their cards carefully. Superpower indeed but the US forcing NATO in post soviet countries over the years is a violation against US's promises to Russia back in 1991 by President Ronald Reagan making a promise and look at it today, NATO is in Czech Rep, Poland, Estonia, Latvia, Romania, Bulgaria, Lithuania and besides Georgia & Ukraine wanting in (just rejected last April 2008 because Russia is really angry at NATO as Russia is the oil supplier for Western/Eastern Europe)[37]. Who brought this on? The United States pushed it and that is against what Reagan promised Russia but the US has violated its promise.
Russia should defend itself from this bull dog the United States has been dying lying to Russia. These countries above shouldn't be NATO members and the US promised no NATO expansion in post soviet countries and look at the US has done. Created an angry superpower back up again Russia.--24.176.166.135 (talk) 09:07, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
Also the article by CNN[38] "Russia, a Superpower Raises Again" as goes into details about how Russia was always a superpower regardless if it was always an energy superpower but it goes on to say it was a superpower even after 1991.--24.176.166.135 (talk) 09:15, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] PUTIN

Vladimir Putin has only extended the powers of the presidency. He has made no motions toward a freer russia. Even now after he has officially vacated office he has his puppet dmitry in charge and he remains prime minister. If any one knows anything about a single act putin has pushed for drop me a message at AragornSOArathorn.

-AragornSOAragorn —Preceding unsigned comment added by AragornSOArathorn (talk • contribs) 22:22, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
"We're not electing a new President. We're just helping the old one to choose a new nickname and avatar." (c=bashorg.ru) --Illythr (talk) 22:50, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
If it ain't broke, why fix it? Wish we had a president like Putin here in the US to take care of the sleazebag lobbies and pissant interest groups. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.91.10.69 (talk) 23:13, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Dmitry Medvedev

[edit] "Президент РФ Дмитрий Медведев"

194.66.226.95 (talk) 12:50, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Buckshot's edits

I have restored the status quo because there were problems with the information he added.

"At least up until 2004 however, 'military officials repeatedly complain[ed] that they were able to draft less than 11 per cent of those who are supposed to be conscripts'.[3] his was partially due to the widely publicised excesses of dedovshchina, the harsh system of senior conscripts controlling the barracks."

Golts' hearsay is unconfirmed and, at the year 2004, outdated.

The reason you gave for reducing the contract term, which you listed as because of "the need for contract troops to operate the latest equipment" is not the only reason. There are several reasons why the contract term is being reduced, for instance because it is in line with the "lighter and more mobile" Russian armed forces post-Soviet doctrine, health/education problems with draftees, dedovschina, etc, that is why there is "several problems associated with it" is listed. In any case, it is appropriate to go into such detail on the Russian armed forces article, but on this article the armed forces section only has a paragraph devoted to it and there is a many aspects to cover, going into detail about one only serves to inflate an already bloated article.--Berkunt (talk) 15:22, 23 May 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Superpower

I've seen the new comments being made that Russia is a superpower and United States is no longer a superpower and stating Russia is far more powerful than the USA. ROFL in all the time I've been on Wikpedia I don't think I've ever heard something so crazy which someone seriously believed. This is not just a ridiculous Russian nationalist fantasy, it's sickening. Fanatical Russians clinging to the idea their finished state is actually still something for the world to fear because their country is only held together by the idea that it should wreak war on others, and America hating sympathisers who look for and support any possible states or entities that could rival the United States, no matter how brutal and disgusting they may be, whether it be such likes as China or Al-Quaeda. Russia is an absolutely finished state with a rapidly falling population that is now even smaller than Pakistan's, it's economy sits in a pathetic 11th position in the world which has been claimed many times is too low to be in the G8, its military spending in a poor 7th position with only a tiny number of its roting military still functioning, internal conflicts and borders falling apart with its regions such as Chechnya breaking away and technically became independent states with their own presidents.

How can Russia even for a second be seriously considered a superpower let alone be more powerful than the US when it can only just scrape in to claim to be a great power considering most other great powers such as the UK, France, Germany, Japan, Italy, and China out perform Russia in economic rankings and military spending rankings. Infact all great powers mentioned above have larger economies than Russia and only Italy spends less on its military, and not by very much.

Russia may very well have large reserves of oil and gas and tries to claim these make it oh so powerful of a country because it has reserves in similar size to that of Iran. Thing is reserves of oil and gas in similar size to that of Iran's have not made Iran a superpower, infact Iran isn't even a great power. Russia has a medium economic growth rate traditionally around 5% a year. The United States has an economic growth rate traditionally around 4% a year. When does Russia's economy expect to by pass America's? 2800? 5% economic growth is actually pretty poor for a developing economy, with such likes as China and India growing at around 9% or more, and it's only 1% higher than America's and America is fully developed. In fact how can the Russian economy even try to compare to the US economy when it's not even a developed economy?

It gets even more ridiculous when you try to compare numbers between Russia and the United States. Russia's $1.2 trillion economy versus the United States $13.7 trillion economy. That's around 13 times larger. The US economy equals 25% of the world's GDP. Russia's $40 billion military spending versus the USA's $583 billion military spending. The USA's military spending is 50% of the world's military spending. Russia's rapidly declining population of 142 million people versus the USA's rapidly rising population of 304 million people. When Russia's economy equals 26% of the world's GDP, its military spending equals 51% of world military spending, and a rapidly growing population of 305 million people THEN AND ONLY THEN is it a superpower more powerful than the United States

In case even all this still has't proved how pathetic Russian power is as of 2008 I've laid out Russia's rankings in important areas associated with power

  • Economy
2007 List by the International Monetary Fund
Rank Country GDP (millions of USD)
— Flag of World World 54,311,608
— Flag of Europe European Union 16,830,100
1 Flag of the United States United States 13,843,825
2 Flag of Japan Japan 4,383,762
3 Flag of Germany Germany 3,322,147
4 Flag of the People's Republic of China China 3,250,827
5 Flag of the United Kingdom United Kingdom 2,772,570
6 Flag of France France 2,560,255
7 Flag of Italy Italy 2,104,666
8 Flag of Spain Spain 1,438,959
9 Flag of Canada Canada 1,432,140
10 Flag of Brazil Brazil 1,313,590
11 Flag of Russia Russia 1,289,582
12 Flag of India India 1,098,945
13 Flag of South Korea South Korea 957,053
14 Flag of Australia Australia 908,826
15 Flag of Mexico Mexico 893,365
  • Military
Rank Country Military expenditures (USD) Date of information
— Flag of World World Total 1,200,000,000,000 2007 (projected est.)[4]
— NATO Total 849,875,309,000
1 Flag of the United States United States 583,283,000,000 2008[5]
— Flag of Europe European Union Total 311,920,000,000 2007[6]
2 Flag of France France 74,690,470,000 2008-2009 [7]
3 Flag of the United Kingdom United Kingdom 68,911,000,000 FY 2008-09[8]
4 Flag of the People's Republic of China China 59,000,000,000 2008[9]
5 Flag of Germany Germany 45,930,000,000 2008[10]
6 Flag of Japan Japan 41,750,000,000 2007[11]
7 Flag of Russia Russia 40,000,000,000 2008[12]
8 Flag of Italy Italy 32,600,000,000 2008 (est.) [citation needed]
9 Flag of Saudi Arabia Saudi Arabia 31,050,000,000 2008 [13]
10 Flag of South Korea South Korea 28,940,000,000 2008 [14]
11 Flag of India India 26,500,000,000 2008-2009[39]
12 Flag of Brazil Brazil 25,396,731,055 2008[15]
13 Flag of Australia Australia 20,727,710,000 2008[16]
14 Flag of Canada Canada 17,150,002,540 2008[17]
15 Flag of Spain Spain 15,792,207,000 2007
  • Population
Rank Country/territory/entity Population Date  % of world population Source
— Flag of World World 6,671,226,000 July 1, 2007 100% UN estimate
1 Flag of the People's Republic of China People's Republic of China[18] 1,326,387,000 June 15, 2008 19.88% Chinese Population clock
2 Flag of India India 1,134,134,000 June 15, 2008 17% Indian Population clock
3 Flag of the United States United States 304,341,000 June 15, 2008 4.56% Official USA Population clock
4 Flag of Indonesia Indonesia 231,627,000 3.47% UN estimate
5 Flag of Brazil Brazil 186,917,074 May 27, 2008 2.8% Official Brazilian Population clock
6 Flag of Pakistan Pakistan 163,554,000 June 15, 2008 2.45% Official Pakistani Population clock
7 Flag of Bangladesh Bangladesh 158,665,000 2.38% UN estimate
8 Flag of Nigeria Nigeria 148,093,000 2.22% UN estimate
9 Flag of Russia Russia 142,008,800 January 1, 2008 2.13% Federal State Statistics Service
10 Flag of Japan Japan 127,720,000 March 1, 2008 1.92% Official Japan Statistics Bureau estimate
11 Flag of Mexico Mexico 106,535,000 1.6% UN estimate
12 Flag of the Philippines Philippines 88,574,614 August 1, 2007 1.33%

2007 Official NSO Census Results
13 Flag of Vietnam Vietnam 87,375,000 1.31%

UN estimate
14 Flag of Germany Germany 82,244,000 November 30, 2007 1.23% Federal Statistics Office estimate
15 Flag of Ethiopia Ethiopia 77,127,000 July 2007 1.16%

Ethiopia Central Statistics Agency

Signsolid (talk) 08:31, 31 May 2008 (UTC)


that's cool, this is not a forum to post your opinions, by the way Russia's economy is one of the fastest growing in the world and they're soon to overtake the UK as the second largest european economy by PPP, hope this helps Nightmare X (talk) 17:21, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

This is not a forum for you to voice your communist sympathy towards Russia in hope that the Soviet Union will return one day. Sorry to disappoint you but Russia's never going to be a superpower again. Hey at the rate their population is falling, their territory being lost, and military rotting they might just be as poor, small, weak, and crappy as Chile soon? Signsolid (talk) 17:03, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

You just attacked editor Nightmare X, who by the way was not the user who posted the "Russia is a Superpower" topic. Nightmare X just came in here to remind you that this is not a general forum, to stay civil, be polite, and refrain from personal attacks. Too bad you didn't listen to him because you've just violated Wikipedia policy twice in a row.--71.112.145.211 (talk) 18:59, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
As a matter of fact, Russia is probably less Communist than any other major European state at the moment. Are you perhaps a Putinist agent aiming to provoke people into defending this country by making ridiculous statements? --217.172.29.4 (talk) 15:13, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Establishment date

From talk page of pianist.ru. It is in Russian, please use Google translation if needed:

[edit] Россия (Russia)

  • По России:

Правопреемственность: Российская республика, провозглашенная в феврале 1917 года стала правопреемницей Российской империи. РСФСР, установленная в октябре (по ст. стилю) 1917 года — правопреемница Российской республики. Далее 4 республики (РСФСР, БССР, УССР, ЗСФСР) объединились в СССР (при этом РСФСР продолжала существовать как государство в составе СССР, см. любую конституцию РСФСР 1918, 1925, 1938, 1978 года). В 1991 году Ельцин был избран Президентом РСФСР (одновременно ещё был Президент СССР - Горбачев). В декабре главами РСФСР, БССР, УССР подписано беловежское соглашение, Горбач уходит в отставку. Президент РСФСР не уничтожает РСФСР (по разным соображениям, также во избежание потери власти), а просто переименовывает её в РФ. Действуют все законы РСФСР (то же самое государство) и СССР (до указов о приостановлении конкретного закона), также обязательства Советского Союза перед другими государствами (РСФСР стала его государством-правопреемником). Поэтому дата основания современной России — 7 октября 1917 года.

Шоковая терапия, прихватизация и прочее по сути дела являются лишь продолжением перестроечной политики, хотя и сбивают несведущих граждан с толку. Еще их запутывает конституция РФ 1993 года, воспринимаемая как первая конституция России, однако она уже пятая по счёту. --Pianist 01:24, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Эта одна из точек зрения - вероятно вполне законная. С другой стороны Россия стала правоприемницей и наследницей многого от СССР. Например, у РСФСР было свое место в ООН, свое представительство, свой голос, это место не имело постоянного представительства в СБ и права вето. После распада СССР РФ получила не место РСФСР, а место СССР. РФ полностью взяла на себе внеший долг, обязательства по междунородным договорам, стату ядерной державы и проч. С третьей стороны РСФСР как предмет международного права после 1921 года не существовал (ну или почти не существовал). РФ руководствуется не договорами РСФСР, а договорами СССР. Или новыми договорами. С четвертой стороны юридически принятие действующей (Собчаковской) конституции в 1993 году было полным нарушением предыдущей конституции. В этом смысле государство существует с 1993 года. С пятой, по вашей точке зрения, поскольку в РСФСР теоретически действовали все законы Российской Империи кроме официально отменных. То современная РФ существует со значительно более ранних времен (Московского княжества?, Ивана III?).
Таким образом, говорить, что РФ существует с 1917 года - это откровенный WP:OR или ОРИСС. Если Вы найдете авторитетный источники это подтверждающие (не передовицу газеты Правда, а, скажем, Британику) - то можно. То что сейчас тоже надо поправить, но мне кажется, что сказать, что стала полностью суверенным государство в 1991г. - сказать можно).Alex Bakharev (talk) 02:24, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
По ООН - мягко выражаясь не совсем правдивая информация. РСФСР не вступала в ООН (в отличие от БССР и УССР), поэтому не знаю откуда вы это взяли. Кстати это не моя альтернативная точка зрения, как вы пытались намекнуть, это факты меджународного права. После ликвидации государства следует созыв учредительного собрания, принятие новой конституции; если вы не помните 1993 год, то напомню что конституцию приняли из-за событий возле Белого дома, а не потому что хотели принять конституцию нового государства. Поэтому прошу вас убрать ваш откат обратно. --Pianist 03:21, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Откатывал последний раз не я, а Berkunt. Я как раз пытаюсь учесть вашу точку зрения. У Вас есть сомнения, что Россия получила независимость от СССР в 1991? If possible lets use English, we are English wikipediaAlex Bakharev (talk) 03:30, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Прошу прощения, но если я буду писать по-английски, то сильно исказится смысл того, что я хотел сказать.
Независимость от СССР Россия получила, но это дата независимости, а не дата основания. Как говорится, это две большие разницы. Независимой Россия также была с 1917 по 1922 год. Кстати по комментарию, к откату участника Berkunt. По его мнению Российская империя была также переименована. Также он пропустил Российскую республику. Вот в том и сложности, что у множества людей начинается разрыв шаблонов, когда начинаешь писать задокументированные факты. По переименованию могу привести ссылку на официальный документ. Надеюсь вы понимаете, что переименование и прекращение существования государства - не одно и то же. --Pianist 04:02, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Alex Bakharev, вам не кажется странным, что в шаблоне указана дата основания (862), а вы даете сноску на дату независимости. Нужно и про 7 ноября 1917 года написать, что юридически РФ основана тогда. --Pianist 06:14, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Утром - ссылка на надежные источники, вечером - дата. Можно и наоборот, но источники - вперед. Alex Bakharev (talk) 06:40, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

I disagree with your original research. Still I would wait for the input from other editors Alex Bakharev (talk) 01:28, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

When you have no arguments, you start saying about "original researches". I wrote Reliable sources to you. (Вот началось - кончаются аргументы - надо начинать орать про оригинальные исследования. Ссылки я указал, вы начинаете доводить до абсурда правила Википедии) --Pianist 01:39, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

We are not doing original research. We are looking for the mainstream views in published sources. Please find any reliable source that claim that modern RF starts in 1917. WP:SYNTH is not allowed, sorry Alex Bakharev (talk) 08:54, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

  • Вот как все херово в Википедии - добавить факты нельзя - долго доказываешь и подтверждаешь ссылками, а в итоге всё будет откачено волюнтаристским решением админа (либо вообще додиков, что про Россию знают меньше, чем например русские про Гондурас). Сейчас в статье информация по дате независимости ложная, а даты образования вообще нет. Россия приняла декларацию независимости 12 июня 1990 года (а сейчас указан 1991 год), юридически Россия основана 7 ноября 1917 года (по новому стилю), однако вики-демократам эта дата не по-душе, ладно - триколор в жопу, ветер в спину - можете тогда указывать в качестве даты основания хоть август 1991, хоть октябрь 1993. Лет через сто может найдется умный человек и вернет правильную версию. Причем отсюда за этот период тупо скопируют в другие языковые разделы википедии. --Pianist 06:40, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
  • The Supreme Soviet of RSFSR could proclaim whatever they want, the republic was not de-facto indendent until the August 1991. Otherwise we would have to admit that Estonia was an independent democratic state in 1940-1991. Still I have entered both dates to address your concerns Alex Bakharev (talk) 08:16, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
Вот сейчас более-менее, но тема основания не раскрыта (1917), по данным, указанным в статье, получается что даже Израиль юридически старше России, однако это не так.--Pianist 09:20, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
I have added the info you requested (with a valid reference BTW) Alex Bakharev (talk) 10:42, 11 June 2008 (UTC)