Talk:Ra's al Ghul

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Contents

[edit] Malhar Naik aka Ice Man

Um... who? Where was this mentioned? - anon

I can find zero references to this character. Unless someone can verify his existence I'm going to assume he was made up by the person that put it in the wiki - who only seems to have contributed that one time.D1Puck1T 16:37, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

I can't find a source for Naik AKA "Ice Man", Should I remove him from the article? 75.165.57.91 —Preceding signed but undated comment was added at 00:51, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Stub?

Six long paragraphs about a minor comic-book character ... and somebody thinks it's a STUB?!?!? egad ... DavidWBrooks 21:56, 19 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Actually, he's anything but minor; he's quite arguably the second most important Batman villain after the Joker. But yes, the stub notice should go. —Lowellian (talk) 22:00, Jun 14, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Name of article

Should the name of the article be changed to Ra's Al Ghul? Kent Wang 14:24, 7 May 2004 (UTC)

The name of the article should be "Ra's al Ghul"; while it has traditionally been difficult to tell the capitalization because of the tendency of comic books to use ALL CAPS in lettering, in Batman: Hush, which didn't use ALL CAPS, the capitalization "Ra's al Ghul", with "al" being lowercase, was used. —Lowellian (talk) 22:00, Jun 14, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Elseworlds?

I'm sure that Death and the Maidens was an Elseworlds... User:82.69.96.158

I'm equally sure that it wasn't. Considering how heavily it was advertised, I'm sure I would have noticed if it was. --Paul A 08:28, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)
No, it wasn't an Elseworlds, though no doubt fans of Ra's al Ghul wish it was. Do I detect sarcasm in the above comment by the anon? :) No matter, with comic book deaths being as they are and Ra's al Ghul appearing the Batman movie, no doubt the character will be back soon. —Lowellian (talk) 04:05, Jun 6, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Huge Batman Begins spoiler

I think more should be done to hide the huge spoiler re: Batman Begins. Maybe that fact shouldn't even be there. --feitclub 06:09, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)

I disagree, if you read the IMDB forum for Batman Begins, there are some people who were puzzled by the Ra's al Ghul character. Some weren't sure that Ducard truly is Ra's. User:Dionyseus
Well, it's now clearly marked as a spoiler, so that should settle the issue. —Lowellian (talk) 21:05, Jun 18, 2005 (UTC)
yeah certainly should be there, the current setup with spoiler tag is fine Boneyard 29 June 2005 15:14 (UTC)

Was it really a "peasant" that Wayne had to kill for the initiation? If I remember correctly, there was a chain around the guy's neck with a badge on it, like an undercover cop. 23:31, July 15, 2005 (EST)

[edit] Pronunciation

The animated series says "RAYSH ahl Ghoul", Batman Begins says "RAHS ahl Ghoul" (pardon my IPA). What would the proper Arabic be? We could add a footnote to the article with this information. 82.92.119.11 3 July 2005 16:29 (UTC)

Can't say for sure, but in Batman Beyond, Terry McGinnis initially says "RAHS" until Talia corrects him, saying that it should be "RAYSH". She also says it's a "common mistake". -- Supermorff 13:27, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

The correct Arabic pronounciation is Ra-us, though Ras is close enough. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.188.105.235 (talk) 07:33, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Year One

Is anyone going to add info on the Ra's al Ghul Year One mini? --DrBat 19:38, July 14, 2005 (UTC)

Surprisingly, Year One contains a glaring mistake in its introduction. It states it was Talia who killed her father, and not Nyssa. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.159.112.69 (talk) 17:49, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Lazarus pit

The article mentions the Lazarus pit several times, but there is no explanation. --Moyet 20:30, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

Is that really necessary, though? I've often been a little bit peeved when an article gives out an explaination for something when that something already has an article of its own--and it's linked right there, no less... Onslaught Six 09:25, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Inspiration for Ra's Al Ghul, obviously Fu Manchu

He has been described as a "James Bond"-style villain, created as a response to the popularity of James Bond during the 70's, and to give Batman a more epic scope and enemy.

Inspiration for Ra's Al Ghul......let's see...he is from Asia, he runs a secret criminal organization, he has lived for centuries, and his daughter is a prominent character. Well, it seems to me that Fu Manchu is who Denny O'Neil had in mind when he created Ra's Al Ghul. Considering that Marvel's Master of Kung Fu with Fu Manchu started not longer after Ra's debuted, it does seem to coincidental.

By the way, considering the comic book Ra's Al Ghul is a light-skinned Arab, I see no reason why the movie Ra's Al Ghul can't also possibly be Arabic.

___ Cast an unmistakably Arabic actor as a terrorist leader? That would be a grave sin against the religion of political correctness, would it not? Rearden Metal 21:32, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Contagion/Legacy

Someone should mention the "Contagion" and "Legacy" arcs in the article, as they're the storylines where Ra's al Ghul really ascends to supervillain status. They happened around 1996-1998. Ra's released a virus that wiped out about three quarters of the world's population. Batman would proceed to protect the cities that still contained humans (Gotham, Calcutta, Edinburgh, etc) against Ra's further terrorist attacks. Azrael and the Cult of St. Dumas also play a large part in the beginning of the arc. -Voievod 22:21, 27 February 2006 (UTC)


Done. However, I don't have the issues in front of me this very moment so others may want to expand my synopsis or cite specific issue numbers/dates. -Rajah1 4:40, July 14, 2006

[edit] Appropriateness of 'Fictional Assasins' category?

While Ra's employs assasins, and is in fact the leader of a League of assasins, it seems somewhat inappropriate to list him as an assasin himself. That's like calling Fu Manchu a ninja, or Emperor Palpatine a stormtrooper.

Agreed.

agreed. ThuranX 22:52, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] How he deduced it

Talia in an earlier tale had seen the Earth-1 Batman unmasked, so she knew his true face. Ghul concluded that to operate as the Batman would require much wealth. Ghul started eliminating suspects. He began investigating into who bought the materials for the weapons and paraphenalia required to operate as the Batman. When confronted with this, the Earth-1 Batman was surprised nobody had thought of this years ago and took steps to plug the hole. Enda80 10:08, 20 May 2006 (UTC)Enda80

[edit] Influence on writers of Ra's al ghul

(202.125.143.65 14:02, 18 June 2006 (UTC)) hi, guys the original guy from history under whose lineage Ra's al ghul seem to continue is named hasan bin saba or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hassan-i-Sabah. this guy is mentioned in the Marcopolo stories.

[edit] My Cleanup

I cleaned up the article from top to bottom and organized it better. I also added some links, pictures and more information in the Appearances in Other Media section. Also added to See Also section.

Overall, great. I have two issues:
  • I'd like to see the 'First Appearance' cover image higher up than the 'Daughters' section.
  • The 'Insanity' subsection of Abilities sounds far too speculative in comparison to the rest of the rewrite.
Otherwise, an impressive rewrite! ThuranX 03:16, 6 February 2007 (UTC)


For the first issue, the cover is only there as it goes with Batman, I thought of replacing it with another but didn't think I mess with it. May do it now since you brought it up.

As for the second issue, the insanity section was just to touch on the possible side effects he may have had with so much over use of something that makes a person temporarily insane upon using it. I mean he has used it probably hundreds of times and it can be safe to say the over use has probably effected his mind to some extent, as after all it did enhance his physical abilities due to its over use. Phunbot 03:46, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

No no, you misunderstand. I mean, move the image physically up the page. In terms of layout.
Even though I've seen numerous references in the comics to the temporary post-dip insanity, i've yet to see anyhting substantive regarding lasting effects. find an issue or storyline to reference, and it's golden. ThuranX 03:50, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

No misunderstanding, I just didn't want to mess with the pic is all but I did find a cool pic so I replaced that one but I did move it in the superbox as that seems a good place for it. Also added two more pics, one of which was already on the page but I moved its location and replaced it with a better version. And the pic of the JLA, I think it is associated to the Tower of Babel story line but even if its not it still goes good with the part of the article its with. Phunbot 04:15, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Some More Changes

Changed up the superbox a bit and I made the pic a little smaller as the superbox be to big for the article to look good. Plus I got rid of the Insanity? section as there isn't anything to substantial to warrant it and switched the Agenda and Abilities sections positions as his abilities should go first. Phunbot 04:32, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Alright, looks good overall, good job. I recommend lettiing it rise like bread and cook for 24-48 hours, to see how the other editors think is it. ThuranX 04:40, 6 February 2007 (UTC)


Lol, well thanks for the comments. Today I just saw it when seeing what needs to be done in the WikiProject Comics and thought I give it a nice sprucing up. Also I got rid of the assassin tag and of course a few others I think didn't belong, like one of them was a superhero tag. Don't know how that got in there.

Check out my other stuff if you want. I just started editing wiki about a week or so but I think I made some nice improvements so far. Phunbot 04:58, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Doczilla reverted the edits by Phunbot. I have reverted Doc, because I think that Phun's edits are overall quite good. Spelling errors can be fixed, and the new format is not particularly bad, the additional images are generally useful, though at least one cover image might be unneeded, and in general, I think the page is better for it. I'd prefer to see some discussion back here before we wind up in a revert war. ThuranX 12:50, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, when I edited it I didn't do any major changes like ThuranX said. All I did really was move things around to make it more presentable and rewrite some sections to give them more depth and incite. (Those sections were Abilities and Appearances in Other Media) Beyond that I just added pictures and which is the one that should be removed ThuranX? Also if I did misspell some things, my bad course when I did clean the article up I did do major corrections spelling wise. In the end I don't think anything I did would warrant a "revert war" as I just did a clean up with some contributions mainly in the Appearances in Other Media section. Phunbot 19:46, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

I am not sure we need that cover to Batman:Ra's Al Ghul... I hope to hear from Doczilla what objections he has to the new page... I'm sure that he'll either take a longer look, or come through with some solid info, as he's a solid, reliable editor. ThuranX 21:37, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
I'll even acknowledge that I originally made a mistake. Phunbot had so many superficial errors that I didn't look carefully enough to see that he/she hadn't gutted something as it appeared to me. An image insertion simply caused that portion to be positioned elsewhere in the edit comparison in a way that made it seem the material had been gutted when it was really just lower on the page. Doczilla 07:35, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ratings Change?

With my changes should the ratings tags on the top of this page be changed now or should it have some more info for that to happen? Phunbot 05:01, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Leave the ratings tags alone, ask someone else to review for tag changes. ThuranX 12:48, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Edits in Appearance in Other Media section

Well, I just added more info to that section as a result to watching the actual episodes listed so if anyone like to question my input there they can however I have facts to back up my contributions. I am just saying this in case someone decides to revert the article back to how it was before my clean up and contributions so they know at least the Appearance in Other Media section is on the level so if they change the article back they can leave that section as it is. Phunbot 02:00, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Clarifications

Um, don't know why you reverted it as I edited it for good reason. So I will go over all my edits to show you why they are there.

The Superman section first:

  • First I removed "end the constant need to rejuvenate his body with the Lazarus Pits as well as" as after watching the episode it was revealed the Lazarus Pits no longer effected him and to save his life he did the whole thing with Superman, so that is why I removed that.
  • Second I removed the process being temporary and being reversed as after watching the episode I saw it wasn't reversed and Superman just gained his power back for an unknown reason.
  • Third I added Batman into the description as he was paramount in preventing Ra's from getting all of Superman's power therefore killing him and I added Ra's using his power recklessly as that caused him and his daughter to apparently fall to there death which caused the fight to end so I think that be worth noting in the description. And I questioned the longevity of Ra's new power as Superman's power returned to him putting in question if the effects of the process that gave him the power was permanent.

Now for Batman Beyond, I added "of" before Terry McGinnis because its better sentence structure and I added "the resulting" before explosion so people understand that he died in the explosion of the machine because without that clarification they don't know what caused the explosion, they can assume it was the machine but I like my edits to be clear as possible sense of ownership with this page. Please read that essay and return here. Work to build consensus. I must admit that your recent edits and behaviors are off-putting, and leave me with an awkward feeling regarding my attempts to assist you, despite your protestations of being new to wikipedia. ThuranX 04:42, 8 February 2007 (UTC)


I don't have a sense of ownership but when I see someone take away key information that properly explains the part I edited then ya I am going to revert it back. As for your reversions being taken in a good faith way, ya when I saw you edit them I had good faith until I saw the gutting of key things that properly explain what was being explained. And yes I understand descriptions should be short but also I do think they should properly describe what there for. Also me needing to let others work on the articles, ya obviously but that doesn't mean I am going put half the stuff I know down and hope someone fills the rest in. What I am going to do is put the best info down at the time that I have, I really never imagined I be scolded on here for giving too much good information but ah well. And also I have watched the episodes I have described so who better to give info on them so why should I not contribute as much as possible rather than do what you want and let anyone rip it apart regardless of there knowledge on the subject. Point is when I contribute, I do just that. I don't half a** it, I do it the best I can. This means I contribute all I can at the time and I am thorough about it. Don't get me wrong I understand you can't be super detailed but I do think you can at least put the extra effort in so when someone stumbles across an article even if they know nothing about the article's subject they leave with a good understanding of the subject. So if for example they see an episode description I think it be necessary to be detailed enough that it feels like they watched a nice best of clip of the show. I mean hey I could be super simple with my stuff and be like "Superman is captured by Ra's and he takes his life force but then falls to his apparent death" -- Ya that explains what happens in the episode but it's so simple a person leaves the article like "Ok, so that happen but why did he fall to his death, how did he steal the life force of Superman, why did he do it" and I could go on. Simply put my goal when contributing is to leave passerby's of the articles to leave with as few questions as possible while at the same time not feeling like they just left a lecture being told needless info that's more hot air than actual substance.

P.S. I did notice you didn't revert it back from my changes which at least shows me that you understood the changes and that they belonged so thanks for that at least. Course Doczilla changed it even after I explained that the process wasn't reversed, well I'll be back to reverting it since you all like to change it even though I have actual facts to back my statements. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Phunbot (talk • contribs)

Read the edit summaries. Many of the edits have to do with basic writing style.
Regarding your thoughts such as "Why did he fall?", I understand what you're saying, but an encyclopedic description of one character's history is not a collection of episode synopses. You can post information like that elsewhere. This isn't an episode guide. This is not supposed to leave them feeling like they watched the clip. An encyclopedia entry is not intended to be a substitute for reading/watching/viewing the original material. People can read episode guides elsewhere. Why he fell is irrelevant to understanding the character's life.
Also, several of the edits I just made had nothing to do with your contributions. Doczilla 06:28, 8 February 2007 (UTC)


So let me gets this straight, a person almost dying is irrelevant to there life, that's an interesting thought. And the majority of your edits did have to do with my contributions. Phunbot 06:50, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

He has almost died a gazillion times. And yes, the majority did. I only pointed out that they weren't all about you. Please consider these edits carefully. Maybe it's hard to see, but ThuranX actually stood up for you. When a fellow editor who has faith that you mean well and have the potential to make great contributions asks that I help show you how things are done around here, that's not an attack. It's just editing and teaching by making one edit at a time, explaining them as I go along. Doczilla 06:56, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
And why did you bring this to my talk page? We're discussing one article. The conversation goes here. That's more beneficial to all future contributors to the article. Doczilla 07:01, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

ThuranX brought it to your talk page, why can't I. Besides I mainly did it so you notice things as you obviously ignored this talk page to some extent or else you wouldn't of put down that the process was reversed as I said it wasn't reversed in this talk page after reviewing the episode. So there is the reason I brought it to your talk page. Phunbot 07:05, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

All ThuranX did on my page was to ask me to look at this page again. He couldn't very well post a note like that over here and expect me to see it when I had not posted on this talk page. When you posted on my talk page, however, was after I'd started posting here. Doczilla 07:07, 8 February 2007 (UTC) P.S. This tangent has distracted from the point of this discussion, which is the quality of the edits. I apologize for bringing it up. Doczilla 07:33, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Episode summaries

Unless a specific citation for the inexplicability of superman's power return can be given, it's obvious to most viewers, and a reasonable use of Common sense, to assume that as Ra's lost his possession of superman's powers due to the interruption of the process, an superman's simultaneous reclamation of said powers, that yes, in fact, the transsfer was reversed by disruption the process. that's what doczilla and my version relates to the reader. ThuranX 04:08, 9 February 2007 (UTC)


Need a citation huh, how about the fact that at the same time Superman's power came back Ra's al Ghul still had the power boost and didn't turn back into frail old man. Well, there you go. That's what you wanted. Though the citation doesn't not explain why he gains his powers it does show Ra's doesn't lose his debunking your whole reversal thing which is the basis of your whole stance on this which you didn't even create, I did. And ya I may have said there was a reversal initially but after watching the episode I amended my edit because unlike you I can admit and correct my mistakes. And of course me doing so is what caused this whole edit problem to consume all my time and yours up here.

Plus he didn't lose the power when the process was stopped before completion, he just didn't absorb all of Superman's power. Because when the process is stopped he battles with Batman, punching through rock like its paper beating Batman with ease. The only reason he doesn't kill both him and Superman is to rescue his daughter which causes you know what, you know that thing you don't like to tell the readers because it add like a few extra words ooo.

As for the readers, where does it say the process was interrupted in your edit in the article. In my edit it is clearly said but no where in yours is it shown so short of the readers watching the episode they will never know it was interrupted which is the problem with your simplistic descriptions. By your description all readers know is that the transfer is completely successful which I might add if that was true, Superman would of died as his complete life force being sucked from his body would kill him of course. Other than that we know the process was reversed course while you stand by this heavily you never say why its reversed except here days after the fact when it doesn't matter. And do I need to go into how you don't even explain to these readers why Ra's al Ghul and his daughter apparently die in the episode, once again you being simplistic is a fault of yours.

What I love is how my description is barely bigger than yours and yet I give the readers so much more concise information yet I am the wrong one in this even though I have watched the episode, have the episode on my computer and provide only facts and no speculation like you.

Well, I just proved your edit is flawed and wrong. Do you need more info before you deflate your ego and admit your wrong? If so just ask and I will as I have facts, not speculation backing me up. Phunbot 05:00, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ownage, how sweet it is!

Forget the above statements and just concentrate on this as what I am about to say will unequivocally show I am right.

Before you asked for citations on why Superman's power returned, the above statement didn't exactly give that but I just remembered something from the episode that shows explicit moments to explain why Superman's power comes back.

In the episode Talia uses the power of the staff to drain the energy out of Superman knocking him out to allow her to capture him showing that the staff drains energy. Later in the chamber meant to do the transferring of his energy into Ra's al Ghul, Superman manages to gain enough energy back to use his powers to get free however Talia once again uses the staff to subdue him. So simply put at the end of the show Superman gains his power back because it's just a matter of time before he recovers from the staffs effects. So there you go a citation that shows why he got his powers back, no reversal bs at all.

Its good to be right and if you want to challenge my statement I will give you the links to the episode and you can see it for yourself. Goodbye this discussion is over, I am going to now edit the article part appropriately with this new info. If you edit it again, that is on you but you been proven wrong so why keep on showing your wrong.

Phunbot 05:59, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Occam's razor

The source of this dispute over the animated series section seems to be some trivial detail in the plot summary of the episodes Ra's al Ghul appears in. Is there a reason we've devoted three paragraphs to the single episode of the Superman series in which Ra's appears?

Since the reason seems to be "the fannish tendency to confuse stories with information," I've omitted the overdetailed plot summary entirely, due to the lack of a need for detailed plot summary of every single work the character appears in (something discussed in WP:FICT and WP:WAF). - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 07:02, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Even better. Thanks. I've been trying to guide Phunbot in better ways to wikiedit, but lately, he's been resistant to guidance. this works even better. ThuranX 12:53, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Head of the Demon

Is it just me, or is the section on Head of the Demon way too long? I feel it practically borders on copyright infringement. Ccm043 13:53, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ridiculousness of 'citations needed' nonsense

Denny has been saying Ra's was Moriarty-level arch-nemesis updated to appear as a "James Bond"-style villain since before 1975. I remember him stating such at Harlan Ellison's Ten Tuesdays Down a Rabbit Hole, the UCLA Extension science fiction class that year. - Sparky (talk) 07:41, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Your memory is not an encyclopedia source. I personally heard Denny say that in a conference call earlier this year. My phone call is not a source either. If he has said it so many times, finding a source should not be difficult. It certainly is not nonsense because most of the planet has never heard him say that. Doczilla (talk) 07:49, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Resurrection plot section

the Resurrection of Ra's plot section is overly long and needs a serious stripping down. ThuranX (talk) 14:04, 19 January 2008 (UTC)