Talk:Phantom limb

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If someone could make reference to the Mirror box in alleviating this issue it would help to bring both articles up to par. --Hooperbloob 20:52, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

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[edit] central nervous system disorder?

I read somewhere a while ago that some researcher were pursuing the idea that phantom limb is really caused by changes in the brain after amputation. when sensation from the former limb is lost, the brain rewires itself in some way, and phantom limb is the result, the brain perhaps trying in some way to 'replace' the ghost or gap in its sensory input. This article also said that some forms of tinnitus are essentialy a form of phantom limb, because hearing damage due to noise exposure damages the sound receptors (cilia) in the inner ear; the brain rewires itself in the absence of the cilia's input, and the ringing in the ears is the end result. Please, someone who knows more should address this if accurate. Sorry I can't cite the source. glasperlenspiel 00:24, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Hi everyone, I have been editing the phantom limb page, and the associated mirror box page. I think that the new versions are at least correct enough that they should inspire more people to come and edit and improve upon them. There's a great deal of historical work that could be included here. One of the next things that I will do is add links to the pdfs of the articles cited (available on Ramachandran's website) for those who are interested in pursing this more Edhubbard 16:15, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Castration?

Somebody told me that post-op transsexuals and men who have been castrated often have phantom sensations where their genitalia used to be. Is that true, or was someone just trying to shock me? Thanks! --71.63.78.183 03:34, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Weight i.e gravity acting on phantom (missing) limb.

I have searched google, yahoo to find whether the amputees feel weight of phantom limb. I have used all possible keywords and I have used advance search options to search exact phrase like weight of phantom limb, weight of missing limb, weight of phantom hand, weight of phantom leg, gravity acting on phantom limb etc.

Only the phrase weight of missing limb yields some results and those are my own posts on usenet.

The average reader may 'assume' that as amputees feel pains, touch, cold etc in phantom limb, they must be feeling 'weight of phantom limb'. This is obvious because in everyday life we feel weight of real hand alongwith pains, touch, cold, heat etc.

But research on phantom limb talks only about things like pains, touch in phantom limb. The astronaut does also feel such senses in space but he does not feel weight of hand like we do on earth.

The question is - if the limb of astronaut is amputed in space, will he feel exactly same way the amputees on earth? Will he feel weight of his amputed limb in space?

I think these questions are important for understanding neuroscience and our universe. Hence I have added three sentences in article 'phantom limb'. If this problem is addressed in some scientific paper or in some reliable source, I would request you to cite the source so that average reader gets correct information about phantom limb syndrome.

Thanks.

neo 15:32, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure if this helps, but people have lost their balance when the expected weight of a missing limb was not there. —Preceding unsigned comment added by MrInitialMan (talk • contribs) 03:52, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Clarification required regarding 'weight of phantom limb'.

It is again to make clear the question whether amputees feel weight of missing limb.

1. We, on earth, do feel weight of real hand or leg alongwith pains, touch, cold etc.

2. Astronauts in space do NOT feel weight of real hand or leg but they do feel pains, touch, cold etc.

Current research talk about only phantom pains but is silent about phantom gravity acting on phantom mass of phantom limb so that amputees feel phantom weight.

Average reader may 'assume' that amputee on earth do feel weight of phantom limb and amputed astronaut in space do not feel weight of phantom limb. But this is just assumption. As a reader, I want scientific evidence.

And I am not asking irrelevent information. Bang your leg on wall. You will feel pains. But at the same time you also feel weight of leg.

And as written earlier, I have searched whole internet. I think, it is justified to make it clear to reader that current research is silent on this subject. -Preceding unsigned comment added by Neo. (talk * contribs) 03:26, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

The point is one of giving undue weight to this question. I have again reverted the bold-face stand-alone line. This is not so incredibly important that it deseves a whole line to itself in bold. The parenthetical comment is appropriate, but even that might not be correct. I remember that Ramachandran talks about a congenital phantom limb patient who felt her arms swinging in his book (i.e., the weight of her non-existant limbs). I'll have to look up the exact page number before I add it, but your failure to find something on the web does not mean that scientific research is silent on this topic. It just means that it isn't there on the web. Edhubbard 16:54, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
On page 41 of Phantoms in the Brain Ramachandran talks about a woman (Mirabelle, not her real name) who reports being born with phantom limbs which are too short. She also notes that the arms hang straight down, and do not swing when she walks, although they do gesticuate when she talks. Similarly, on page 42, he recounts the case of John McGrath, who reports that his missing arm will attempt to balance him, for example, when he plays tennis. "When I play tennis," he said, "my phantom will do what it's supposed to do. It'll want to throw the ball up when I serve or it will try to give me balance in a hard shot." These passages suggest that there is a feeling of weight, or at least mass, in the phantom limb. I think that your question also raises another question, which is, exactly what is our sense of weight. Is it just gravity, or is it a combination of mass (which astronauts in space can feel. Things are still massive, and easier or harder to accelerate and decelerate in space) and gravity... and how is that sensed? Proprioception, through cutaneous receptors? Through muscle fibers? I think you'll have to be much clearer about exactly what it is that you would like to know, and perhaps you need to start looking at better sources than the web. Edhubbard 17:09, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

You have kept my parenthetical comment '(But whether they feel weight of phantom limb while gesticulating is unclear)'. I think this single line is enough to make clear what I want to point out.

You claim that you were student of Dr Ramachandran and even you can't find whether the amputees feel weight of missing limb on web or in the books, then it is clear that current research is silent on this subject.

You have quoted some lines and you say that those lines 'suggest' that 'that there is a feeling of weight, or at least mass, in the phantom limb'.

In science we do not go by suggestions and assumptions. There is difference of world between feeling weight(gravity) and feeling mass.

I graduated in science and my interest is in physics. I am just curious how can human brain sense gravity acting on mass which is missing. If brain can create phantom mass, phantom gravity, phantom sensation of one missing hand, then it can also create phantom mass, phantom gravity, phantom sensations in two missing hand, two missing legs and may be whole missing body which is cut off from throat (if we manage to keep blood supply, energy to brain so that brain remain 'alive').

If my parenthetical comment i.e '(But whether they feel weight of phantom limb while gesticulating is unclear)'

remain there, I would like to end this subject.

Thanks.

neo 03:17, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Phantom hearing/"Ear music syndrome?"

I didn't add this to the article, because it would be original/hearsay, but a person who works with the deaf told me recently that there was such a thing called "Ear music," where one heard sounds that weren't there ina very low form, if one had a hearing impairment. No, it isn't hypnagogia, I asked specifically and she said it was different. I'd never heard of it for ears (I also hadn't heard of "phantom eye" till I came here) but if someone can find some documentation, it would be good to include. I couldn't find any under "ear music," but I'll admit I might have remembered the term sheused wrong.209.244.30.221 12:49, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Citations at the top of the article don't look right

They seem to be edited strangely, looking like hyperlinks to other articles and not to citations at the bottom of the page. I don't know the right way to format it myself, but I just thought I should note that it looks wrong. If it's been fixed, of course delete this section. Gregory j 06:09, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] On other forms of Phantom limbs

I mentioned some people having phantom body parts that are not a part of the human anatomy (phantom tails, phantom wings, etc.). What do I do, should the proper reference to such a phenomenon be in a thread on a forum?

Mr. Initial Man (talk) 06:55, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Hi Mr IM, I removed your addition because it was unreferenced, and I know of no references in the scientific literature that could substantiate such a claim. If you have reliable sources that suggest that such people report such experiences, you could put it back in, with the references. If you're having any problems formatting the references, or just want feedback on the phrasing, you can put it here on the discussion page, and we can work on it together. Edhubbard (talk) 08:30, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
It is not in any scientific literature that I know of; there was a discussion on a forum on "phantom tail syndrome", though. Mr. Initial Man (talk) 03:18, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
Hmmm... if you could track down a link, or some other way to verify that some people at least report it, it *might* make it into the article, even if it is not in the peer-reviewed literature. Ideally, we would like to have something from the scientific literature, but we can assess the quality of the reference and go from there. No guarantees, but let's at least try. Edhubbard (talk) 14:41, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
I included my addition once again, with the required link. Mr. Initial Man (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 11:13, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

To whoever else removed my addition about other body parts: Please remember that "Goddamn [Insert group here]" does not constitute a valid intellectual argument. Mr. Ed Hubbard was right to remove an unreferenced bit of information; there is something that is close to a reference on the article now. However, just because a phenomenon is peculiar to certain groups (therianthropes and furries in this case) does not mean it is not genuine. Mr. Initial Man (talk) 03:49, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Nontheless, a random forum thread/post is not a valid, reputable source. Should you come up with one, Then I'll leave it be. Until then, it has no place in the article. 24.168.4.183 (talk) 20:22, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

I'll see if I can come up with something. But I've often noticed "I've never heard of it" or "I've never seen any sources" is often used as an excuse to shut down any first-hand testimony on a topic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by MrInitialMan (talk • contribs) 06:50, 17 March 2008 (UTC)