Talk:Ohrana

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[edit] Archive

See archived talk page of former article at Uhrana: Talk:Ohrana/Uhrana

[edit] Jingby

I suggest we concentrate on several things: 1) you must avoid usage of the word "Grecoman", for it is offensive to many Greeks, and i agree with that it is offencive. 2) Second, Ohrana militia never attacked the peaceful "Grecomans" (better say pro-Greek Slavophones), Vlachs and Pontians. Vlachs had their own colaborationist organization organized by the Italians - they called themselves centurions. 3) As for this privatly made ease - [IMRO Militia And Volunteer Battalions 1943-1944 http://www.makedonskatribuna.com/IMRO.doc] which is filled with hatread and xenophobia, the rules stated in Wikipedia:Reliable sources, and better here: Wikipedia:Reliable_sources#Extremist_sources say that these things can not be used as a reliable source. BUT still I am not against using it as an external link, even as an reference, but we mustn't say Grecomans, or that "ohrana attacked grecomans". Ohrana only attacked communists. 4) Neither Ohrana, nor the Macedonian Committee in Kastoria organized newspapers or schools in Bulgarian. Schools in Bulgarian were organized only in the Bulgarian occupied zone of east Greek Macedonia and West Thrace. 5) IMRO seeded to exist in the late 30's when the Bulgarian government banned the organization and destroyed the infrastructure of the organization in Pirin district of Bulgaria. So Ohrana and the Kastorian committee were created by the Bulgarian Thessaloníki club, which was adherent to the Bulgarian High Command, former IMRO members only supported the effort but did not do nothing else than support. Please consider these things - nevertheless the article is neutral. Regards. --Revizionist (talk) 16:41, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] First of all

The one who wrote it doesn't know english.I mean i corrected at least 20 grammatical or syntax mistakes.Secondly is not balanced.We speak about the "Ustashe" of Bulgarians here.The fact that Kalcev and his family left Greece under the treaty of Neilly which saw 50,000 Greeks moving from Bulgaria also is described as "leaving persecution" , ELAS a communist anti-nationalistic movement who was battling Germans Italians and other Royal Greek or collaboratives is described as having a nationalistic agenda!!!!!!!! of massacring poor villagers when even a kid-historian nows that ELAS was in favor at least at first of a separate Macedonian state and secondly it was comprised by Slavomakedonians also.

Bulgarian occupation and the retaliation which provoked isn't discussed.We have 5,000 massacred in Drama we have executions of Greek civilians, deportation, prohibition of Greek language, killing of priests, ethnic cleansing (100,000 Greeks were forced to leave Bulgarian occupied Thrace).We have an organization here which functioned as the servant of Nazis which was envisaging a puppet state under Germans and was armed by Nazis in order for them not to spend soldiers against Greek resistance.In contrast here these people who threw their guns and run for their lives the moment their protectors abandoned them are described as missionaries.

The sources are nationalistic Bulgarian sites.Shame on you Nazi-lovers. Eagle of Pontus (talk) 14:32, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

• First point: you lose. Second point: don't try to pretend that the Greeks are innocent here. While I disagree with showing the Ohrana only in a positive light, showing them as Nazi war criminals who committed atrocities against the harmless Greeks is POV. Do you actually think that Greeks of that period should be role models for human rights? Both sides of any war have breached human rights many times throughout history. BalkanFever 10:30, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

What's really the point of your answer?You don't answer to anything just the good old revisionist arguments.Nazis weren't that bad as Allies committed crimes too!!!!!!Yea its about time to try to offset the laws of Metaxas regime (a dictatorship neither popular nor saint) which were discriminating (and yes i disagree with them), with the killings deportations and oppression of Nazi's and their Bulgarian puppets in occupied Greece!That would be funny if it wasn't tragic!

They were formed under Nazis, they committed war crimes, they collaborated with occupiers they attacked unarmed civilians and they were routed by the communists of ELAS.It's not about role models it's about facts here (and in some occasions like the treaty of Neilly it's about hiding facts also).

PS:I suppose Godwin's Law applies to discussions unconnected with Nazis not in this case where Nazis is the topic of the article!Especially when we have to do with some nationalists who try to make them look like saints. Eagle of Pontus (talk) 12:37, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

The Greeks probably weren't as bad as the Nazis, but they weren't good. It's that simple. I made absolutely no revisionist statements whatsoever. You must be confused: Ohrana is the topic of this article. One could argue that Ohrana were not Nazis, merely aligning themselves with the Nazis because it was beneficial to them. But that is not my point here - I really don't have much of an opinion either way. My point is Ohrana = bad while Metaxas = good is nationalist POV. If you want to add sources for the massacres go ahead. BalkanFever 10:25, 1 February 2008 (UTC)