Talk:Neue Deutsche Härte

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I pretty much looked at the German wikipedia article as reference. Please add whatever you feel is needed to improve this article. -Iopq 10:29, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Isn't this the same thing as Industrial metal?

I always thought of Rammstein as industrial metal.

This is more specific. If you listen to Ministry (band) they have a slightly different style with different vocals like screaming instead of clean singing. Also, Rammstein tends to use low BPM, while other industrial metal bands are faster. These features are shared by many German bands. Plus, the article exists in the German Wikipedia, I just translated it with a dictionary and wrote a summary of what I could understand. -Iopq 08:58, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
It might be of benefit to look at Industrial Music and look at the definition(s) there. Here are some characteristics of just Industrial music.
  1. Being created for a new generation of people.
  2. Normally a darker atmosphere.
  3. Digital editing with samples, clips, etc.
  4. Use of new, experimental, "gritty," or "hands-on" methods/technology to create the music.
  5. Music that can be called out of the norm.
So they are definitely Industrial. Next we need to see the definition of Industrial Metal. "Industrial metal is a musical genre that draws elements from industrial rock and heavy metal music. Industrial metal music is usually centered around metal guitar riffs and industrial rock synthesizer/sequencer lines, heavily distorted, very low pitched guitars, as well as harsh vocals, but in some instances can have clean vocals."
If you do more digging, you find that Ministry is under a sub-genre of Industrial Metal called Coldwave (USA) and that there are too many sub-genres to easily say something is not Industrial by comparing it to select sub-genres.
I would say it would be fair to refer to NDH as Industrial. By definition it overlaps so much it would be hard to deny that it is Industrial.
Last thing: There is a part in Industrial Metal that does refer to NDH under "Later Developments." This is quoted from there: "More recently, groups like Rammstein and Oomph! have taken inspiration from electronic music as well as industrial and hard rock to create a new genre called Neue Deutsche Härte (New German Hardness)[citation needed] or what Rammstein describe as "Tanz-Metall" or "dance metal"[citation needed]."
So the question is should we consider this an Industrial Genre? I would say it falls under that. I'll wait to see what other say about this. In the meantime, I'll clearly put in that NDH is inspired by Industrial Metal along with electronica, metal, etc. Xe7al (talk) 12:26, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Why is there even this category in the first place, while reading it, it was ALL the same as [industrial] to me ?! --67.212.22.44 (talk) 11:51, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] L'Ame Immortelle

I don't see how this is stylistically connected. -Iopq 12:02, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Although L'Ame Immortelle's earlier music would be closer to EBM, their newer stuff includes guitars and that 'german hardness'. i quote 'Kraushofer and Rainer recruited Ashley Dayour as a guitarist' check out Stumme Schreie and 5 Jahre to see their new appraoch. and remember Oomph originally did not have guitars either before taking their a new approach --Sic one 18:00, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] KMFDM

How and where exactly does KMFDM fit into this genre? They've been recording since 1984 (earlier than the apparent founding of this genre) and have incorporated dozens of genres throughout their career. Each album is typically quite different (stylistically) from the previous. I'm not arguing that they be removed from the article--I'm just wondering if there is a particular album or single that tags them as NDH-metal. I'd like to incorporated this into the KMFDM article if necessary. --buck 16:47, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

The same can be argued about Die Krupps, who formed in 1980. --68.13.244.167 12:53, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Disputed status as NDH

One of the unregistered editors had a problem with several of the bands that I'd added to the list, so rather than endlessly changing the list I thought we could discuss it here.

All of the bands that I added to that list (excepting a_Life[Divided]) are listed on the German page on NDH, and beyond that, several of the more well known bands removed (Subway to Sally, Tanzwut, In Extremo) are often listed as NDH on German websites (amazon.de, for one) While I'll agree that Subway to Sally's earlier work is most definitely not NDH, Engelskrieger and Nord Nord Ost definitely do fit into this category, as does In Extremo's more recent releases (tracks like Horizont or Poc vecem from Mein Rasend Herz), and of course Tanzwut's work has generally been classified as NDH. Just about any track from their most recent release, Schattenreiter, could fall easily into the genre.

I'm happy to have a dialogue about this, so if you feel that I'm completely off base here I'd be happy to have you tell me why. Tev 04:26, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Die apokalyptische reiter isn't NDH. --78.12.8.78 (talk) 00:10, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

What about Ruoska? they sound almost like Rammstien but they sing it in Finnish. −₪ÇɨгcaғucɨҲ₪ kaiden 02:09, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] What should be considered NDH

Should we only be counting bands that come from German speaking countries, or bands that sing in German, or...? Lately there have been some additions that, while stylistically they qualify as NDH, are either singing in an unrelated language or are from a country that doesn't have German as an official language. Any thoughts? Tev 03:57, 17 June 2007 (UTC) So could Laibach be considered NDH? They're not German but they sing in German amd Rammstein site them as a major influence. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.44.226.194 (talk) 21:57, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] IPA?

As this is German I wouldn't wonder when a lot of people have problems pronouncing it so phonetics would be very useful.

[edit] In Extremo, Subway to sally....?

I always thought that was folk-metal.....at least In Extremo

[edit] Spelling

Why is the name of the article Neue Deutsche härte, with Neue Deutsche Härte as a redirect? The latter is the correct spelling, since nouns are always capitalized in German. As long as the name is in German, shouldn't it be capitalized according to German rules? DES (talk) 12:33, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

The whole term is probably a proper noun in itself anyway (like New Wave), so rendering it in a first-letter-uppercase format seems fairly reasonable. - Cyrus XIII (talk) 22:35, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
I believe when it comes to German nouns and such, it stays lower case - see Talk:Du hast for and example. ≈ The Haunted Angel Review Me! 23:44, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
Sorry, but I fail to see how this example supports a lowercasing of "Härte". The consensus on Talk:Du hast seems to be to follow standard German capitalization as opposed to English title case, yet "hast" is a verb (lowercase in German) and "Härte" is a noun (uppercase in German). See also: Neue Deutsche Welle (from which the term we are discussing here was probably derived). - Cyrus XIII (talk) 00:48, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] NDH & Coldwave influences

It is true that the Neue Deutsche Härte are heavily influenced by Industrial Metal, but that doesn't mean that it's the only genre that would describe the sound of NDH. Many different genres like EBM, Dark Electro, Neofolk, Goth, Rock and all kinds of metal music have influenced the NDH. The important thing is that the NDH has a unique sound created out of all those genres, whether German or German-oriented, the bands have created the NDH genre, and the only differences between them are influences (like Goth, Medieval, Metal etc.). Coldwave (USA) is similiar to NDH, though it has it's own sound, it should not be considered the same as Industrial Metal. A Coldwave (USA) band Hanzel und Gretyl should be mentioned, as they are from New York, but their Industrial Rock/Industrial Metal sound is heavily influenced by German language and NDH-style playing. Therefore, the Neue Deutsche Härte and/or Coldwave (USA) should never be the same as the term Industrial Metal.

--Cjepo (talk) 23:08, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

I still think of Industrial Metal as more of a broader genre. It stems down from Rock... Industrial... Industrial Metal... then splits off into more sub-genres such as Coldwave and NDH. It's just like you can say that Oomph! is still a rock/metal group. They are but they're also a sub-genre of that. Xe7al (talk) 01:20, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
But it's important that you see that the NDH is not just a musical genre, it's a group of German or German-oriented bands who have a unique sound that just happens to be almost the same as Industrial metal! Oomph have gone through EBM beginnings, Industrial Metal and finally ended in something that sounds like alternative metal. Still, Oomph are the pioneers of NDH, and are most famous for their Industrial Metal albums and songs!

--Cjepo (talk) 02:24, 6 January 2008 (UTC)