Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (names and titles)

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[edit] Simplifying titles: Removing "prince" from royals with substantive titles

I have removed the inaccurate "end of poll" comment. If it reappears for a third time, the dispute will be escalated. <--- This comment is by Deb, who disagreed with the outcome too late. Charles 23:17, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Initial poll beginning

I think it is about time that we remove all of the superfluous titles of "prince" or "princess" from royals who have substantive titles and their spouses. In such a case, someone like Prince Andrew, Duke of York will have his article located at Andrew, Duke of York. But what about his princely status, you say? Well, that can be shown in his article. No one is complaining that Sophie, Countess of Wessex isn't a princess on the basis that her article title doesn't have "Princess" in it. We are not here to give full styles and titles, we should only have the simplest and highest titles in article titles. This will also effectively remove the issue of having Princes Edward, Andrew, etc, followed by their titles, while having Charles, Prince of Wales with no "Prince" before his name.

This, of course, isn't solely an issue of British princes, there are Swedish princesses, Bourbon princesses (such as Princess Margarita, Countess of Colorno) and so on. Either the titles should be Prince(ss) NN of X or NN, <Title> of Y but not a half mixture of both. Either someone is known by one title or another (in this case, Princess Margarita mentioned earlier should be at Princess Margarita of Bourbon-Parma, she is known better as that). Charles 22:38, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

I thoroughly support the current form, i.e. Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh — he's a Prince of the Realm(s), considerably higher than a mere Duke! And as for Sophie, you can full well Charles that she can't be at Princess Sophie, Countess of Wessex because she isn't "Princess Sophie". I will heartily oppose moves to change to Andrew, Duke of York. † DBD 00:38, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
I think a duke is actually a higher rank than a prince. DuncanHill (talk) 11:56, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
I'm afraid not. Royalty outranks peerage. PrinceOfCanada (talk) 12:17, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
In some places like Germany for instance, I believe a Duke out ranks a Prince. - dwc lr (talk) 12:43, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
All three of you are incorrect. It all depends upon what type of prince and what type of duke. dwc lr is correct that there are often national differences, but even within a country there can be different types of dukes and princes who outrank each other. E.g. in Germany, Andreas, Prince of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha outranks the Duke of Croÿ, who outranks the Prince of Waldburg-Zeil, who outranks the Duke of Trachenberg, who outranked (until he died) the Prince of Weikersheim. It's complicated. Noel S McFerran (talk) 12:55, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
I stand corrected. Many thanks. I'll amend my statement to "in the British system, Royalty outranks Peerage". PrinceOfCanada (talk) 14:53, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Also, if we go with "best known" then we have Prince Philip, Prince Charles, Princess Anne etc., or, second to those, The Duke of Edinburgh, The Prince of Wales, The Princess Royal etc. Hmm... † DBD 00:41, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
On the basis of prince(ss) being "higher" (I don't know why they would chose to be known by their "insultingly low" ducal titles), why don't we move Sophie to Princess Edward, Countess of Wessex. See how that logic works? I said best known of either form I posted... Prince(ss) NN of X or NN, <Title> of Y, since we never use either form in partial form for any royal here on Wikipedia. We don't need both a princely title and the ducal/comital titles. What have to you to say about Princess Margarita of Bourbon-Parma? See what the current "rule" does? Let's also not be so anglocentric here. Charles 00:46, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
I'm with Charles here. Regarding the current form, I do like what it tells me, but article titles aren't supposed to convey information about the subject (that's what the article is for), so that's not really relevant. If we can choose between James VI of Scotland and James I of England, we should be able to choose between Prince Philip of the United Kingdom and Philip, Duke of Edinburgh or between Prince Carl Philip of Sweden and Carl Philip, Duke of Värmland too – based on common usage (which will most probably mean opposite decisions in these cases). Can't imagine that Prince would be needed for disambiguation for the British royal peers, as non-princely peers tend to have surnames. -- Jao (talk) 01:25, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
Precisely. Charles 01:29, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
I agree too. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:27, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
I concur; best known of either form whether Prince(ss) N of X or N, <Title> of Y. The current form Prince N, <Title> of Y is not used in other sources. Noel S McFerran (talk) 16:38, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
4 for, 1 dissenting. I'm going to amend the convention to reflect this. Later on I will start with some page moves. Charles 18:40, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Initial poll end

[edit] Post-poll discussion and attempt at consensus

Firstly, apologies for getting into this late. However, I would strongly disagree with the proposal. Prince Philip for example is widely known as that, so it seems illogical to remove the "Prince" from his title, or indeed from Princes Andrew or Edward. When is Andrew known as "Andrew, Duke of York"? I see no need to change the guidelines, these people are Prince/ss and are known as such as well as by their peerage titles, to remove one in favour of the other when they are known by both seems misleading.--UpDown (talk) 19:41, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Andrew isn't known as Prince Andrew, Duke of York. It's just the "Duke of York", therefore Andrew, Duke of York. Clean, concise, simple. If he wasn't known by his ducal title it would simply be Prince Andrew of the United Kingdom. The point is they are known as either/or. It is not misleading at all to simply not use a title. Prince Philip is known primarily as either that or as the Duke of Edinburgh. We don't have to use a construction in between that really only seems to be pushed in the British cases, based on full and rarely used styles. It creates problems when that style is applied to members of other royal families. We had Princess Margarita, Countess of Colorno, who is never referred to by that name. She is rightly Princess Margarita of Bourbon-Parma. And what about Prince Carl Philip of Sweden? He is known by that title but his article uses a rarely used ducal title. Charles 19:49, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
He may not be often known as Prince Andrew, Duke of York, but its seems to me more sensible to include both Prince Andrew, Duke of York (as he's known as both), rather than pick one. Prince Andrew, Duke of York is a sensible solution. For the two non-UK examples you list, fine, but I am mainly against removely the Princely title when they are known by it. --UpDown (talk) 19:59, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
I agree with UpDown and also oppose a change. I personally don't see an issue with including a princely title as UpDown has noted Prince Andrew, Duke of York is known as both "Prince Andrew" or "The Duke of York". Sometimes he is even referred to as "Prince Andrew, Duke of York". Some of the examples Charles noted such as Prince Carl Philip should perhaps be looked at on an individual basis, but I'm not overly familiar with Swedish royalty and don't know whether he is known by the Ducal title or not. Looking at UK one's for example Prince Philip's profile on the UK Monarchy website lists him as Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh. - dwc lr (talk) 21:07, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

I also strongly disagree with this proposal, and I was not aware that the same discussion poped up here again. The same discussion was already made in a slight different form on the talkpage of Prince Philippe, Duke of Brabant, see Talk:Prince Philippe, Duke of Brabant#Requested move. Althought Charles did his very best to convince the other Wikipedia editors to change the guidelines, a very vast majority opposed the proposal. I strongly suggest all of you to read the discussion on that talk page to get a better understanding into the logics why the proposal was rejected. Demophon (talk) 19:57, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

I recognise the concerns expressed by UpDown - even though I personally don't share them. The convention allows for exceptions - and they should be made where appropriate. But those exceptions should not be the basis of the rule as they were until Charles made the change to the convention.
In respect to Andrew, the results from Google Books are enlightening:
78 "prince andrew duke of york"
100 "andrew duke of york" (excluding "prince andrew duke of york")
With historical individuals the results are even more telling:
37 "prince adolphus duke of cambridge"
396 "adolphus duke of cambridge" (excluding "prince adolphus duke of cambridge)
The examples with European royalty are even more ridiculous; nobody says Prince Carlo, Duke of Castro. Noel S McFerran (talk) 20:10, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
Personally not a fan of the google test, but regardless my point is he is never known as Andrew, Duke of York, he is known as Prince Andrew or Duke of York. I see no reason to remove the "Prince" from him when he is so often know by it.--UpDown (talk) 20:18, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
This is not a "google test"; it is Google Books which indexes the full-text of BOOKS. Please re-read my message above. I do not know why you continue to maintain that "he is never known as Andrew, Duke of York" when I have shown that there are 100 BOOKS which use the phrase "Andrew, Duke of York" (i.e. more books than use the phrase "Prince Andrew, Duke of York"). The onus is on you to provide evidence (not just statements of your own personal opinions) for why Wikipedia should use a minority term. Noel S McFerran (talk) 20:36, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
You keep missing my point. He is known widely as either Prince Andrew or the Duke of York, so it is logical to combine the two. He is widely known as a Prince, so why ignore this fact in the title? To say that it is a "minority term" based on a search of books via google frankly I don't believe stands up. He is widely known as a Prince and his article title should reflect that. Are you seriously telling me you think he is not widely known as a Prince?--UpDown (talk) 20:57, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
  • No, per WP:COMMONNAME, it is logical to choose between the two, especially when combining the two results in something hardly anybody uses. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:21, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
Wikipedia is based on published sources. I have shown clearly that published sources favour the term "Andrew, Duke of York" over "Prince Andrew, Duke of York". So far you have not cited any sources whatsoever. Elvis Presley is "widely known" as "the King". Noel S McFerran (talk) 21:17, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
A Google news search for "Prince Andrew, Duke of York" gets 204 hits, "Andrew, Duke of York" gets 44 for example. - dwc lr (talk) 22:08, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
In addition "Andrew the Duke of York" gets 58, "Prince Andrew the Duke of York" gets 485. - dwc lr (talk) 22:37, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
Almost every single argument at that page was either "the conventions say this..." (yes, but that can be changed), "articles don't explain they someone holds a noble title" (well, including "prince" doesn't explain why either!), "more commonly referred to as 'Prince Philippe'" (well, then rename the article that!), "other heirs have this" (well, refer to the first about the conventions, they have it because it is our construction), "Duke of Brabant isn't known as the heir's title" (it is NOT the job of the article's title to explain that, if it was, the article would be called Prince Philippe, Duke of Brabant (this is the title of a Belgian heir apparent)). All very weak arguments and very few of which were directed toward the convention but rather toward the article. Charles 20:31, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

I disagree with this proposal as well, for essentially the same reasons as UpDown. Proteus (Talk) 20:55, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

So far these users are concerned only about British princes. We don't, however, follow an exact Buckingham Palace style guide. Charles 21:21, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
I oppose the proposed change as well. A royal duke is not the same as an "ordinary" duke, and this should be clear in the title of the article, not just in the text. Deb (talk) 21:49, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
The article titles are not responsible for that distinction. At any rate, the absence of a surname makes it very clear. Also, reading the article helps. Why not pander to the people who only know of Prince Andrew but not of the Duke of York? Charles 21:59, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Can those who support "Prince Name, Duke of Place" for princes with a ducal title cite any major reference work which uses this construct? Noel S McFerran (talk) 22:46, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

I checked a couple of pages of the 1910 and 1998 Almanach de Gotha's and it uses Prince (names), Title of Place. - dwc lr (talk) 22:56, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
I wouldn't even leave the 1998 Almanach in my washroom even in the absence of sanitary paper. Charles 22:58, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
I think it would be of great help to you. - dwc lr (talk) 23:02, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
The 1910 Almanach gives the titles preceding the forenames of all junior members of a house or family without the territorial designation, which is given as the heading for the family, whether or not they hold another (substantive) title. It is not indicative of any type of support for the form Prince X, <title> of Y on that basis. Charles 23:06, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
One presumes, contrary to your final statement in the "closed" discussion, you will not be undertaking any moves until there is an actual and fully-discussed solution to the proposal? † DBD 23:35, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
I see no reason why moves should not commence. Arguments presented have little to no basis or proof to back them up and it all seems to be on the basis of what people "like". The convention was broken, it is now fixed. People who are best known as the Duke of York, etc, don't need the title "prince" in their names for people to know that they are royal. That's what reading the article is for. I could argue we have no idea if he is a noble prince or a royal prince. Or what is he a prince of? Does he even have a territorial designation? Why aren't we using it? Again, a broken construction has been removed. Where a person has a princely cadet title and a substantive title they can be known by one or the other. Charles 23:41, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
Yes they feel it necessary to use the Princely title preceding the name and the other title succeeding it, hence Prince Name, Title of Place. Genealogisches Handbuch des Adels uses the construct Prince Name, Title of Place also from the one page I've seen even The Descendants of Louis XIII uses Prince Name, Title of Place also. - dwc lr (talk) 09:25, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
Do either of those works append a territorial designation to the end of the names of those without substantive titles? If not, it is not indicative at all of how we should style anyone. If so, it's still probably a minority view. Charles 20:00, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
As a republican? I'd prefer Andrew Mountbatten (or Andrew Windsor), Charles Phlip Bernadotte etc. But seriously, whatever you guys decide? I'll go along with it. GoodDay (talk) 23:51, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
Why step in to say something yet add nothing? The discussion is about the use of titles, not the use of family names. Charles 23:53, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

I should remind people that there was more than enough time for voices to be heard so do not revert the naming conventions until a new consensus is reached. Charles 23:51, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

The reason for reverting to established conventions is to prevent actions being made against or prior to the consensus of this ongoing discussion. I have registered my vehement opposition, and my reasons therefor. For such an important issue, now plenty of others should be allowed their say. † DBD 00:00, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
Excuse me, but you did voice your opinion when you had the chance and therefore you are in no position to simply revert. Your reverts constitute abusive and disruptive editing only until you actually have consensus to change the convention again. A black mark for an otherwise good editor and disappointing at that. Charles 00:03, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
Um yes, when I and others contributed the discussion was open why not include our opinions when you "closed" it. - dwc lr (talk) 00:06, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
I've mostly seen the Prince/Princess titles usage in publications; if that help? GoodDay (talk) 00:11, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

I have edited the convention to reflect the fact that there is presently no consensus either for the wording of User:Charles or for the former wording. This is an attempt to stop the edit-warring and reverting by several editors. When a consensus (or something close to it) is reached, then the convention can be edited to reflect that glorious achievement. Noel S McFerran (talk) 00:43, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

It should be put back as there is no consensus the discussion is still ongoing regarding the current proposal put forward by Charles. I believe most people in this "new" discussion oppose Charles' proposal should I just close this "new" discussion like some Fascist dictator and claim consensus. Closing half an ongoing discussion is a pathetic act and shows no respect for other Wikipedians opinions. - dwc lr (talk) 00:51, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
Respect is a two way street. Why should I show you something you have rarely, if ever, shown me? Don't answer that question, it was rhetorical. Charles 00:56, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
I'd like answer why would I want to show respect to someone who has effectively attacked my intelligence and accused me of possible substance abuse. You've never shown me one once of respect. Why not show other editors respect, its not only me though. - dwc lr (talk) 01:02, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
Really, you've started many, many fights. I approach most other people with respect. You should take a long, hard look at yourself and wonder why. End of discussion. Charles 01:15, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
I'd show people like Mcferran respect for instance. You never discuss anything its just revert, revert, revert. I try to discuss changes like the Hereditary Princess of Anhalt your not interested. I'll have the last word. - dwc lr (talk) 01:20, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
1) as I stated in Talk:Prince_Philippe,_Duke_of_Brabant#Requested_move: This discussion was already made a time ago. The form "Prince X, <Title> of Y" is much more logical and correct. First, Prince Philippe is "Prince of Belgium", secondly with a honouring and substantive title named "Duke of Brabant". He's not the reigning duke of the Duchy of Brabant.
2) I don't know how others think about this, but I was not aware that a relatively small discussion as above suddenly changed into a vote to change really the guidelines. Normally you do this first with a discussion and then with a clear distinct voting survey. Demophon (talk) 00:52, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
It doesn't matter if he's reigning or not, you are referring back to our convention which can change. It is only because of the "old" convention that it would seem that Philippe is a reigning duke of Brabant under that title. Artifical. Is Charles the reigning prince of a Principality of Wales? Secondly, if Philippe is firstly a prince of Belgium, let's name him Prince Philippe of Belgium. If not, let's name him Philippe, Duke of Brabant. What does the title Prince Philippe, Duke of Brabant, imply he is a prince of anyway? See the problem? Charles 00:56, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
Also, the arguments at that page have already been dissected. I will repost: Almost every single argument at that page was either "the conventions say this..." (yes, but that can be changed), "articles don't explain they someone holds a noble title" (well, including "prince" doesn't explain why either!), "more commonly referred to as 'Prince Philippe'" (well, then rename the article that!), "other heirs have this" (well, refer to the first about the conventions, they have it because it is our construction), "Duke of Brabant isn't known as the heir's title" (it is NOT the job of the article's title to explain that, if it was, the article would be called Prince Philippe, Duke of Brabant (this is the title of a Belgian heir apparent)). All very weak arguments and very few of which were directed toward the convention but rather toward the article. Charles 00:59, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
I was engaged in the Prince Philippe discussion and I was not aware that a proposal was being put forward to change the NC. When I expressed my opposition to Charles' current proposal the discussion was very much open and ongoing. - dwc lr (talk) 00:58, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
Bull. The convention had already changed. Basically a new discussion. Charles 00:59, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
The discussion was "shut" at 23:16 on 30 May 2008 why is the rest of the discussion not included why other opinions not included. - dwc lr (talk) 01:07, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
I had forgotten to do what I intended to do initially. I fixed that though. Charles 01:12, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
You conveniently missed part of the discussion would you like me to fix it for you? That's no consensus, you see you have to take every bodies opinion into account.- dwc lr (talk) 01:21, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
It's not artifical, he's a prince, with a substantive title. If you had read the previous discussion than you would know it's quite normal to name the prince "Prince Philippe, Duke of Brabant". Demophon (talk) 01:06, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
I know he is all of those things, we do not need to use them. Normal as it may be it is not absolute and it is not definitive and it may not even be the most common usage. Charles 01:12, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
Oh good lord. I absolutely, categorically, and vehemently oppose this change. Using Andrew as the example, he is commonly known as Prince Andrew, much less commonly as the Duke of York. Also, all the reasons above, especially Demophon and Danbarnesdavies (who is, quite frankly, apparently something of an expert on these things). PrinceOfCanada (talk) 04:58, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
Let's name it Prince Andrew of the United Kingdom if that's the case. Charles 06:42, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
Because that is not his title. His title is: Prince Andrew, Duke of York. What part of that is unclear to you? PrinceOfCanada (talk) 16:18, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
Hahahaha! Pardon? His titles are Prince of the United Kingdom and Duke of York. That is his title. Dropping the territorial designation produces a style. Much is clear to me. Hold your hand out in front of your face. Are you sure you can see it? Charles 20:10, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
By the by, I'm only a self-created expert — I have no formal or professional qualification, so I guess what you say is correct, I am apparently something of an expert! Either way, saying so is something of an ill-advised move, since it resembles appeal to authority, which is a fallacy. Not that I object to the authority of the appeal, of course! † DBD 06:35, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Now, I feel I should syllogise my considered argument:

  1. The very basis of our conventions is common usage
  2. HM The King of Belgium, in common usage "The King of Belgium" (or presumably "The King" with Belgium) or "Albert II" (or "King Albert"]] is at "Albert II of Belgium", despite seldom being referred to as such, let alone commonly — this is because common sense has been applied to the common usage — i.e. that "Albert II" wouldn't do because there are other monarchs whose pages would clash were that precedent set, so to his title is appended "of Belgium", a qualifier based on his realm, and a sort of mixture of multiple common usages.
  3. By analogy, the King's eldest son is generally known as "Prince Philippe" and "The Duke of Brabant", but neither is suitable, so common sense is to be applied. Common sense would dictate that to differentiate the man "Prince Philippe" who is (substantively) "The Duke of Brabant", could be disambiguated as "Prince Philippe, Duke of Brabant" — thus ensuring that entrants from Prince Philippe and The Duke of Brabant are immediately reassured by the title that, yes indeed, they have landed at the correct man.
  4. Thusly, by the very evident and established blanket conventions, common usage is vetted by common sense. Simplicity is evidently king.
  5. Q.E.D.

Thankyou † DBD 06:35, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

We are not obligated to combine and then to force that form upon all other royals. A real pity that people here are over-concerned with British royals when there is a whole continent and more of others. Andrew, Duke of York is simple and unambiguous. For someone who is HRH The Duke of York it is the closest we can hope to get to that style with a title. What's next, Princess Diana, Princess of Wales? Is Sophie, Countess of Wessex royal? Really, I don't know... Shouldn't she be Sophie, Princess Edward, Countess of Wessex or something? Seriously people, what is up with this? Andrew, Duke of York simply because we don't use styles in article names and Duke of York is an article on all dukes. Prince Andrew, Duke of York is too close to a style to be defended as a means for preserving "clarity". Charles 06:42, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
"What's next, Princess Diana, Princess of Wales?" -- Of course not, because that was never at any point in time her title. Stop being disingenuous. "Prince Andrew, Duke of York is too close to a style" no, it's not. 'HRH' would be the style. 'Prince' is a title. PrinceOfCanada (talk) 16:18, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
I will be whatever I choose to be to show people how ridiculous their arguments are. If Andrew has to say at Prince Andrew, Duke of York, because "that's his title", we should rename Sophie to Princess Edward, Countess of Wessex. After all, that's her title. Charles 20:10, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
S'funny, but I thought as far as Belgium was concerned, the monarch was not styled King of Belgium, but rather King of the Belgians, in as much as they are monarch of the Belgian people, (wherever they may be), rather than the chunk of land called Belgium. This being along the same lines as the monarchs of the former Kingdom of Scotland, who were often styled King or Queen "of Scots", rather than "of Scotland". Talking of Scotland, royal titles here still require inclusion of "Prince", i.e. HRH The Prince Charles, Duke of Rothesay. 80.41.220.120 (talk) 08:57, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
Using Prince Name, Title of Place is far more common for Prince Andrew, Duke of York than Andrew, Duke of York based on a google news search I carried out with the results posted higher up in the discussion. Prince Phillip, Duke of Edinburgh is listed as just that on the UK Monarchy website. The naming conventions as they presently are "Prince Name, Title of Place" is widely for Princes who also hold other titles, and is not some form invented by Wikipeida and never used elsewhere. This obviously is not just a UK issue but the only other relevant discussion I'm aware of was the one for Prince Philippe, Duke of Brabant and a proposal to drop the princely title which was rejected. The arguments are the same for Briton's, Belgian's etc - dwc lr (talk) 11:02, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
Actually, in book search I got 91 for Andrew, Duke of York and 78 for Prince Andrew, Duke of York. The former with -"Prince Andrew" to exclude the latter. Charles 20:10, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Oppose, Firstly, 4-1 is a ridiculously small consensus to start a change like this, and secondly, the Duke of York post comma portion of the name is for disambiguation from other Prince Andrew articles. It can never really be argued that one Prince whatever is the common usage over another, as that would violate neutral point of view. The normal in text reference to the article should be a piped or redirected Prince Andrew, not Andrew, Duke of York, so the change saves nothing in terms of linking without piping or redirects. MickMacNee (talk) 19:29, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Actually, it can be argued what is and isn't common usage and that would be NPOV. The point is to fix a broken convention when applied like a blanket makes for ridiculous titles. You people are sooo anglocentric. How annoying. Charles 20:10, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
I have removed the archive box per the above comments [1]. MickMacNee (talk) 19:36, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
Quite right. Archiving the parts of a discussion that end up with a majority in favour of what you want, when you are already outnumbered (I make it 4 in favour of the proposal and 8 against, so far), is simply not on. Charles, you should know better - and I've no doubt you do. Deb (talk) 19:42, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
I tried to remove it earlier on but it got re added, so lets hope it stays removed as the discussion is still clearly ongoing. I even posted at WP:ANI to try and get the ok the remove it. - dwc lr (talk) 19:45, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
I've reinstated it. Obviously you peopel have trouble understanding because you don't agree with the conclusion. Now there are two views presented in the conventions. I preserved the discussion supporting one of them. Otherwise the late-comers (and yes, you were late, very, very late) would use it to keep a broken convention in deadlock. Charles 20:10, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
I registered by opposition in an open and ongoing discussion at 21:07, 30 May 2008. The said discussion was shut down at 23:16, 30 May 2008. So I got in with a few hours to spare, few! But if you insist on the Archive template remaining I will be of assistance to you and correct your template to include everything down to your comment "The 1910 Almanach gives the titles preceding the forenames of all junior members of a house or family without the territorial designation, which is given as the heading for the family, whether or not they hold another (substantive) title. It is not indicative of any type of support for the form Prince X, <title> of Y on that basis. Charles 23:06, 30 May 2008 (UTC)". This obviously means you made a mistake and the correct outcome is in fact no consensus for your proposed change. Glad we've cleared that up. - dwc lr (talk) 21:48, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
No, you didn't 14:40, 4 to 1 then 14:43, change was made. You were too late. The archived discussion refers to the discussion which made that change which is still in the naming conventions. People came in after the change was made. Templates or not, the change was made after a consensus. That people disagree after does not change the initial discussion, therefore the archive templates. Sorry! You are of no assistance to me and your help is neither needed nor wanted. Obviously, you cannot read or have trouble comprehending what I said about the Almanach. They don't give the family designation for ANYONE because it is the header for each family. Therefore Prince so and so (without territorial designation), comma, substantive title in the almanach is NOT indicative of support for that style, it is simply information. If that is the basis of your argument then we must drop the territorial designations of all royals without substantive titles. Charles 22:02, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
I'm sorry but you should of shut the discussion down when you had the chance, the discussion was still open when I and others commented so our comments must be included if you insist on keeping the archive template. But like I say don't worry I will correct this for you. UpDown first came in before the change was made why is their comment not included? Yes the Gotha gives lists people as Prince Name, Title of Place like the present naming conventions also use. - dwc lr (talk) 22:16, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
UpDown did not come in before the change was made. I am going to call you out on the Almanach de Gotha. The almanach doesn't add the territorial designations because they are in the heading. For instance, Prussia with people listed under as Prince X, or Princess Y, without "of Prussia" at the end. Therefore that is their style guide only for brevity and to avoid repetition in a list. If that is your (very, very weak and ridiculous) argument then we have to rename Princess Victoria of the United Kingdom to Princess Victoria because the Almanach would list her that way. Therefore the Almanach is not indicative of how we should style people. Find better sources. For instance: "Andrew, Duke of York" -"Prince Andrew, Duke of York" 100 results and "Prince Andrew, Duke of York" 78 results. Charles 22:22, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
UpDown came in at 19:41, 30 May 2008 (in my time) the "alleged" change did not take place until two minutes later they clearly got in there in time. So again why is their opinion not included perhaps you felt you needed to act quickly as you could sense the tide turning. Yes the Gotha consider listing the Princely title important which lots of people have been arguing is when it comes to articles here and the Gotha is a good form to follow for people with substantive titles. As the Princely and substantive titles are important imo. And what does Google news say. We can use this as well to find what news sources use. I posted the results earlier. Prince Andrew, Duke of York (204) is more common than Andrew, Duke of York (44). - dwc lr (talk) 22:43, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
UpDown came in after the convention was changed. That is a fact. Just The Duke of York gets 8,880 results. That's without "Prince". We don't need to use prince. Also, you are ridiculous and obviously can't comprehend what I said about the Gotha. Your argument is weak, null even. The Almanach de Gotha doesn't list the territorial designation for anyone, even people without substantive titles. Therefore it is not indicative of support for a form where it gives the same blanket treatment to everyone. You can't pick and choose your arguments when they have holes in them. I posted book results as well and Duke of York, without prince, outnumbers the other. Charles 22:52, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
What time did UpDown make the comment directly under the Archive template. What time did you change the Naming Conventions. But most importantly of all what time did the discussion (half of it anyway) close. I could go and express an opinion on the renaming of the article Mark VIII. But I couldn't for Maria Vladimirovna, Grand Duchess of Russia as the particular discussion is closed. When I expressed my opinion here the discussion was open so I and lots of others got in there in time. Yes and what's more common Prince Andrew, Duke of York or Andrew, Duke of York. God knows how many hits there are for Prince Andrew - 23:04, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
In order: At 14:40, there was an 80% majority favouring changing the conventions. At 14:43, I changed the convention. The discussion was therefore closed even if I had forgotten the templates. I even made a move to the effect of the new conventions at 14:44. It was only later at 15:41 that someone objected, but too late at that. The changes had been made. There you go! The discussion was not still open because it had concluded. Charles 23:12, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
You are the only person who believes a change has taken place. The reality is that there is an ongoing discussion regarding a propsed change put forward by yourself on 18 May. At present there are four in favour and eight opposed. - dwc lr (talk) 23:26, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
If I was why does the naming convention show two sides? A change did happen, it is not the same as it was three or more days ago. And obviously, the discussion which introduced the other side needs to be preserved. Charles 23:45, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
Really the NC article should be put back as your propsal has been ongoing since 18 May and not passed but a clear consensus is now forming. - dwc lr (talk) 23:57, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
The proposal ended at 14:40 with a clear majority. Charles 00:09, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
Personally I consider it the same proposal and will do unless an administrator says otherwise. Either way I look forward to it's end. - dwc lr (talk) 00:25, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Clearly, a lot of people oppose this change and the discussion period was not as long as it could have or should have been in order to achieve true consensus, whichever way that consensus will go. As this is going nowhere, I think we should put in request for arbitration. I don't know how to do this. Help?PrinceOfCanada (talk) 22:32, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

It does not matter whether people came "late" to the discussion. The fact is that there is no consensus for Charles's proposed change. Deb (talk) 23:09, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

I too would like to see a consensus for this as I am in agreement with the points made by Deb, dwc lr, and D. Чарльз - жопа (talk) 04:16, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Okay, shall we "tally up" and go with the consensus? † DBD 21:30, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

I think it's perhaps time, the proposal has been running been since 18 May and has now received considerable input from numerous editors. - dwc lr (talk) 22:28, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Agreed. Let's count it up... and go right back to where things were before the whole bunfight started, looks like. PrinceOfCanada (talk) 23:56, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
The proposal was concluded at the end of the May. Sorry! Charles 18:04, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
Oh my God. Are you serious?PrinceOfCanada (talk) 20:28, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

The current wording notes that there is no consensus "about the form of name for a prince(ss) who holds a ducal (or other non-princely) substantive title". This is similar to the lack of consensus about the naming of deceased consorts of sovereigns.

One option is to just recognise the lack of consensus and leave the current wording.

On the other hand: there is definitely some use of the form Prince(ss) {first name}, {title} and User:DWC_LR has shown that this form is more commonly used for living princes of the UKGBNI in news sources. I have shown that the form {first name}, {title} is more commonly used in books and much much more commonly used for deceased individuals. The form Prince(ss) {first name}, {title} is virtually never used for deceased French or Italian princes (e.g. Louis, Duke of Nemours gets 51 hits in Google Books [2], but "Prince Louis, Duke of Nemours" gets absolutely none [3]. There are similar results for Antoine, Duke of Montpensier. Perhaps it would be an option to seek a consensus about a sub-group (e.g. by nation, or by time). Sometimes there are different ways in which princes from different countries are treated even in English-language scholarship (e.g. the exception in the current convention regarding use of family names for members of Italian Renaissance families). Noel S McFerran (talk) 22:31, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

I believe all the French princes with substantive titles use the form "Name, Title of Place" anyway so it may make sense to write something in about them. I'm not so sure about Italian Princes the Duke of Aosta/Savoy uses the form "Prince Name, Title of Place" on his website.[4] - dwc lr (talk) 10:24, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] French nobility : name/title

There is an error in title of the article Louise Marie Adélaïde de Bourbon-Penthièvre. Her name is Louise Marie Adélaïde de Bourbon. "Penthièvre" is not a family surname. The last name at birth of all the members of the House of Bourbon-Toulouse-Penthièvre is de Bourbon, nothing after, but titles: Louis-Alexandre de Bourbon, comte de Toulouse ; Louis Jean Marie de Bourbon, duc de Penthièvre ; Louis Alexandre de Bourbon, prince de Lamballe ; Louise Marie Adélaïde de Bourbon, Mlle de Penthièvre. "Mlle de Penthièvre" is a "title" that was chosen for her because her father was the "duc de Penthièvre", it could have been as well "Mlle de Rambouillet". Frania W. (talk) 19:08, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

I think we should discuss the naming of members of the house of Bourbon as a whole. I suggested some time ago that all the people who were "of France" should be named NN of France, possibly with the title of prince or princess, because it is retroactively applied. All others should be (<Title>) NN of X or NN, <Title> of Y. If no preceding title is used, we can use "de". For instance, just Louise Marie Adélaïde de Bourbon. I am not a fan of using "surnames" for those who have titles (I have see ... d'Orléans, Duke of Orléans, etc... We don't give surnames for anyone else. People, however, shouldn't have made-up designations as seem to be the case with Bourbon-Penthièvre. That is simply a genealogical designation and not something that she would have used. I am going to post a link to this discussion at WT:ROYALTY. Charles 19:33, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
Charles, I read all the discussions (!!!) and even went on different language wikis to see if some had better ideas than others, or at least stuck to one rule. I thought the Germans would be tip-top sleek - well, they are not doing much better than the Anglo wiki: they translate titles: Louis XIV is Ludwig XIV., but do keep some in French... sometimes (marquise de Montespan)http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludwig_XIV. As for the French, they translate everything into French: le duc de Windsor, Marie Stuart, reine d'Écosse, Marie-Antoinette de Habsbourg-Lorraine, reine de France, le prince de Galles; Richard Cœur de Lion, and do not seem to make any exception. That's for one thing. Now for the naming with titles, surnames, nicknames, it's a separate mess. Trying to put some order into it is not going to be easy: you seem to have been working on it for years. Like the French say: On n'est pas sorti de l'auberge. Frania W. (talk) 23:33, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Mongolian name order

When it comes to name order, I suppose "most common form in English" is our rule. This means that all Hungarian and most Japanese names are switched to western format, but not (generally) Chinese names, while Korean names are a total mess (Personal name#Name order mentions this). But what about Mongolian names? An example: at the ISSF World Cup in Milan the other day, Gundegmaa Otryad won and Munkzul Tsogbadrah finished third in 25 m Pistol. Or Otryad Gundegmaa won and Tsogbadrah Munkzul finished third? I have no idea what the common usage in English is here. The official results only say "OTRYAD Gundegmaa" just like they say "EMMONS Matthew" etc, so are not very helpful. (Also notifying about the issue on Talk:Mongolian name.) -- Jao (talk) 20:28, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

The answer is given in Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Mongolian)#People:
There are no family names in Mongolia. In conversation, a person is addressed by the given name. Today, the full name consists of the father's name and the given name, in that sequence. The father's name is in genitive form, usually ending in -iin or -yn (eg. Peljidiin Genden).
In international sports reporting, the patronymic is often falsely treated like a western family name. In such cases, we need to track down the original spelling in Mongolian (should be in the article anyway) and fix them accordingly. I regularly do this for new articles that I come across. Someone also created a template {{Mongolian name}} which can be added to the top of articles. In the case of sportspeople, where there is the most confusion, it probably should be added by default. --Latebird (talk) 04:52, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
Thanks, I had no idea WP:MON existed! I'll try to use this information to make sense of it all. -- Jao (talk) 05:34, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
btw. I think in this case Gundegmaa is really the personal name, i.e. the one that should be capitalized. Somewhere, there is also some Mongolian-born shooter who has become a Germnan citizen, where the naming question is probably even more complicated. Yaan (talk) 18:54, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
Indeed, Munkhbayar Dorjsuren (that article mentions her birthname as Dorjsürengiin Mönkhbayar, so she now uses her old patronymic as a family name; I remember having a discussion about that name with someone, probably User:Punkmorten). I'm pretty sure you're right about Gundegmaa. The ISSF rules specifies that a "family name" should be included in the lists, which is of course a little problematic with Mongolian names (as with Icelandic names). I think it's fair to assume that the name capitalized by the ISSF is (quite erroneously, one would be tempted to say) in these cases the patronymic. Only problem is that Otryad doesn't seem to be in the genitive, at least it doesn't end in -iin or -yn. But then Mongolian name says that the genitive case is only used "very frequently", not exclusively. Would you say the fair thing to do is then to call her "Otryad Gundegmaa", unless evidence for another form can be found? -- Jao (talk) 19:43, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
It's Otryadyn Gündegmaa (Отрядын Гүндэгмаа), as confirmed eg. by the list of Mongolian medalists in Asian Games on mnwiki. If you have more names that you're uncertain about, then you're welcome to ask for clarification on the WP:MON talk page, and we'll try to figure them out. --Latebird (talk) 05:00, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
Great! I thank you for your assistance. And I'll keep that page in mind for future reference, too (I can read cyrillic – albeit slowly – so it could probably help me). -- Jao (talk) 05:38, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Fools walk where angels fear to tred

In order to assist with ongoing discussion, I have created a few new section headings in the convention - but I have been careful not to change wording (even when I thought something was necessary).

There is now a section entitled Royals with a substantive title with the following text (what has been there for the last day):

  1. If an individual holds a princely substantive title, use "{first name}, {title}". Examples: Charles, Prince of Wales, Anne, Princess Royal, Felipe, Prince of Asturias.
  2. When dealing with a Crown Prince(ss) (however not consort) of a state, use the form "{name}, Crown Prince(ss) of {state}" unless there is a clear formal title awarded to a prince which defines their status as crown prince (e.g., 'Frederik, Crown Prince of Denmark', but 'Charles, Prince of Wales', 'Felipe, Prince of Asturias', etc)
  3. There is presently no consensus about the form of name for a prince(ss) who holds a ducal (or other non-princely) substantive title.
    1. Some editors suggest the form "Prince(ss) {first name}, {title}". Examples: Prince Andrew, Duke of York and Prince Edward, Earl of Wessex.
    2. Other editors suggest the form "{first name}, {title}". Examples: Louis, Duke of Nemours and Emanuele Filiberto, 2nd Duke of Aosta.
    3. Numerals are not generally used. Example: Prince Richard, Duke of Gloucester, not "Prince Richard, 2nd Duke of Gloucester".
  4. If a prince(ss) holds a substantive title but is not widely known by it, use "Prince(ss) {first name} of ...". Examples: Princess Margarita of Bourbon-Parma and Prince Carl Philip of Sweden.

Please comment on how THIS TEXT should be altered. We've all had enough of "Charles is evil" and "No he isn't, but you are." Noel S McFerran (talk) 00:51, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

I've never thought the Prince of Wales to be a particularly evil fellow. Regarding crown prince/crown princess, I would remove the "(however not consort)" part. I think that crown princes and crown princesses-consort should be treated the same. It almost implies, to me, that a crown princess-consort should not be named X, Crown Princess of Y. Charles 00:57, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for this effort. However, if a discussion of this issue is, indeed, "ongoing", isn't it premature to state that "there is currently no consensus...", since one may yet be reached (consensus being distinct from unanimity) before we conclude this conversation? I generally support this wording, but prefer the "Prince X, Duke of Y" format, because I think that the "most commonly used in English" standard, coupled with the implicit caveat for application of common sense (ergo, no "The Queen" or "Princess Diana" as article titles, despite their ubiquity), justifies the pre-emptive disambiguation provided by the princely prefix. FactStraight (talk) 03:24, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
Excellent work. I would agree with everything, but that we should be using Prince/ss X, Title of Y whenever there is a substantive title. As for the final point.. I think the convention should be as uniform as possible. Using 'not widely known' opens up the door to yet more bunfights, which is probably a bad idea. Best to have them all at the appropriate P X, Title of Y page, with redirects from the more popular name, and something in the lead saying 'P X, Title of Y (more commonly known as P X of Z)'. Regarding Crown P/ss, I think usage should depend on whether the title has been awarded to the consort or not.PrinceOfCanada (talk) 16:46, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

The discussion is ongoing in the above section. We should not detract from it by creating another duplicate discussion here, just because one user has succeeded in making it into such an uneeded case of drama. MickMacNee (talk) 16:58, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I think that is precisely why the discussion should be moved here, without the BS that went on before. PrinceOfCanada (talk) 17:06, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
Well whatever, I just don't think its helpful to be restarting the discussion in a different place, bacause for sure people have already left it once already, lets not create another obstacle to finding it again, I mean the title is hardly helpfull is it?. And it doesnt make any sense to have another location when there have been opinions registered above, that may not necessarily be repeated here. I suggest closing this section in deference to the above discussion, as it is obviously the prima facia location. MickMacNee (talk) 18:00, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
It could perhaps have been put with the main discussion as a sub heading. - dwc lr (talk) 18:05, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Question 1 about the convention proposal: Regarding Emanuele Filiberto, 2nd Duke of Aosta, the title Duke of Aosta.. is this really a substantive title? It seems to me more like a peerage title at its own, together with the substantive titles. It looks that the title have its own lineage and is not linked 'pers se' to the King of Italy. This in contrast to the titles 'Prince of Orange' or 'Duke of Brabant', which are today in the kingdoms the titles linked to the heir of the throne.
Question 2 about the convention proposal: why is the title of the page Louis, Duke of Nemours not 'Prince Louis, Duke de Nemours'? Demophon (talk) 18:27, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Response 1 Please review the meaning of substantive title as it is used on Wikipedia. A peerage title is a substantive title.
Response 2 Virtually none of the French princes are in the format Prince Name, Duke of Place. The format is NEVER used for them. It's inappropriate to impose that format on them, merely because that format is sometimes (although a minority of times) used for British princes. Noel S McFerran (talk) 19:10, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

I give up, why doesn't everyone just ramble on regardless. MickMacNee (talk) 19:16, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

In fact no, as per Charles, I see exactly why Noel S wants to 'restart' the discussion in a different place. This is bordering on the ridiculous. MickMacNee (talk) 19:19, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Regarding substantive title's one thing I'm not clear on is heads of Royal houses. Are their titles to be regarded as substantive, we articles like Maximilian, Margrave of Baden, now his title could probably be regarded as substantive, but what about Andreas, Prince of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha, Konrad, Prince of Saxe-Meiningen or Prince Louis of Hesse and by Rhine. Are these titles to be regarded as substantive. The majority of heads of (European at least) Royal houses use the format like Andreas and Konrad etc. while others like Prince Louis of Hesse and by Rhine etc. do not. How do we define a substantive title for heads of Royal Houses. - dwc lr (talk) 10:48, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

A substantive title is unique to the holder (and his spouse). Maximilian, Margrave of Baden does bear a substantive title. Andreas SCG does not bear a substantive title; he should be at Prince Andreas of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha. He is not THE Prince of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha (even though he is head of the house). However, this practice is widespread on Wikipedia (cf. Georg Friedrich, Prince of Prussia and Maria Vladimirovna, Grand Duchess of Russia). I do not see any way of correcting this issue in the near future. There are a number of editors of royalty-related articles who are very inexperienced - but don't seem to realise just how inexperienced they are (since, in comparison with the person in the street, they know significantly more). Often there is no convincing them even when one provides all sorts of evidence from published sources. Noel S McFerran (talk) 11:12, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
In that case it's clear who holds substantive tiles and who doesn't. Like the Baden example other heads with substantive titles presumably are Bavaria, Saxony, Mortiz of Hesse, Parma. Why not move the others if they are incorrectly titled? - dwc lr (talk) 12:41, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Charles the Red

No doubt some editors have noticed that Charles' username is now in red. That is because about three hours ago User:PeterSymonds (an admin) deleted Charles' pages at his own request. Presumably Charles has (once again) decided to leave Wikipedia. I can only assume that this is in response to some of the recent personal attacks on him including the most egregious where he was described as "behaving like a Nazi dictator". Noel S McFerran (talk) 11:48, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Maybe it was a case of Gerrymandering then? deciding boundaries for ones own advantage. A lot of people are unhappy I perhaps took things to far. "Once again" he's left before then? I Suppose he'll be back. I'm obviously not happy at the way he decided to archive only half of an ongoing (still) discussion presumably because there were numerous views in opposition to his proposal being expressed. - 12:10, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
It seems pretty clear to me that he (Charles) went quite a bit over the line in massaging a discussion in order to reach the answer he wanted, he got called on it, and has left in a huff. I've seen this happen approximately eleventy billion times online; he'll be back, it'll happen again, lather rinse repeat. I hope it doesn't--I hope his actions here were a minor aberration, but reading through the history of his talk page...well.. it doesn't look that way. PrinceOfCanada (talk) 16:51, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
I can only assume Charles is a Diva. MickMacNee (talk) 16:54, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
It happens again, you've been right. Gerhard51 (talk) 20:33, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Woah, okay, everybody calm down. MickMacNee, please assume good faith. Editors -- good ones -- sometimes go over the line, but I'd like to make a point that responding with comments such as "it appears that X is a WP:DIVA" is not the correct way to respond. NO, Charles has not left "in a huff"; he has semi-retired to concentrate less on royalty and more on an article particularly close to his heart. That does not mean to say that he has left completely, and he is still making edits. The decision was not sudden, it was being considered for a long while. Heh, if Charles left after every dispute, he would've been redlinked years ago! ;) But seriously, let's back off, assume good faith and refrain from the veiled personal attacks. Charles made mistakes, but he also did a lot of good for the project. PeterSymonds (talk) 21:14, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Hear, hear! † DBD 21:19, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] When not to use a substantive title

User:PrinceOfCanada has suggested that "we should be using Prince/ss X, Title of Y whenever there is a substantive title", i.e. without any exceptions. Allow me to outline three cases where it might be appropriate to do otherwise:

  1. Princess Margarita of Bourbon-Parma Until two days ago this lady's article was at Princess Margarita, Countess of Colorno. She is NEVER EVER known as "the Countess of Colorno" - although her father did give her that title. The title is so uncommon that it doesn't even appear in many royal genealogies.
  2. Prince Carl Philip, Duke of Värmland This prince is hardly even known as "the Duke of Värmland", although the fact that he has the title is widely recorded. He is commonly called Prince Carl Philip of Sweden (a title of much more meaning to anybody coming to the article).
  3. Infanta Elena, Duchess of Lugo This lady is sometimes called "the Duchess of Lugo", but far more frequently she is called Infanta Elena of Spain.

I have presented these three cases not only as examples, but also to show that there are different levels of reason for not naming the article with the substantive title. A case can be made for Duchess of Lugo; I don't think that a case can be made for Countess of Colorno. The convention should address the fact that there are situations when a substantive title should not be in the title of the article, but only mentioned in the text. Noel S McFerran (talk) 19:10, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Um, you kind of ignored what I said right after that. I'll repost it here, for convenience:
I think the convention should be as uniform as possible. Using 'not widely known' opens up the door to yet more bunfights, which is probably a bad idea. Best to have them all at the appropriate P X, Title of Y page, with redirects from the more popular name, and something in the lead saying 'P X, Title of Y (more commonly known as P X of Z)'.
To give an example: Prince Carl Philip of Sweden should redirect to Prince Carl Philip, Duke of Värmland, as the latter is his correct title, whatever he may be known as in day-to-day parlance. The logical extension of your argument would be to have Princess Diana as the main page instead of Diana, Princess of Wales, which obviously doesn't make any sense at all. PrinceOfCanada (talk) 19:39, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Noel has completely misunderstood the purpose of article titles and in-line redirects/piped links. To hark back to Prince Andrew, that is his common name, but his article is quite rightly Prince Andrew, Duke of York. I fail to see what all this nonsense is trying to achieve. MickMacNee (talk) 19:49, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

I haven't "misunderstood the purpose of article titles and in-line redirects/piped links". An article title should clearly represent the topic of the article. Redirects are useful for other ways that users might search.
In the case of Princess Margarita, Countess of Colorno, that article title does not clearly represent the topic of the article; even people who are friends with this lady probably wouldn't recognise her titled like that. In the case of Prince Carl Philip, Duke of Värmland, perhaps somebody should write to the Swedish court. He is not generally styled Duke of Värmland on their website (although the title is mentioned on his biographical webpage). [5]
When somebody uses the phrase "logical extension of your argument", they're using engaging in Reductio ad absurdum. I am not suggesting that there should be an article entitled Princess Diana. I am saying that there are some cases where a substantive title is so unused that it is not appropriate to include it in an article title.
Describing another editor's good faith efforts to discuss the content of a page as "all this nonsense" is contrary to the Wikipedia behavioral guideline on Civility. Please be more careful. Noel S McFerran (talk) 20:11, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
I don't believe what I was saying was reductio. It comes down to this, for me: either we adopt a convention, or we do not. If we do, that convention should be equally applied, for the sake of ease of access to information--random person coming to Wikipedia won't know that we have decided 'P X of Y' for this person, while X, T of Y' for the next person. A convention should be followed across all implementations of that type of thing. While it's true that Duke of Varmland or Countess of Colormo may not be widely known, it is equally true that those are their official titles. Again, to use the Diana example, she was widely known as Princess Diana or Lady Di. Neither of those are accurate in any sense, and while it may be generally accurate to refer to Carl-Phillip as Prince of Sweden, it is not specifically accurate, which is sort of the whole point of an encyclopedia, is it not? You yourself said that "an article title should clearly represent the subject of the article". In the examples given, the subject of the article should also reflect what the actual title of the person is. Redirects from popularly-known titles make all sorts of sense, and avoid any ambiguity or mistakes. PrinceOfCanada (talk) 00:12, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Exactly how is Countess of Colorno the "official title" of Princess Margarita of Bourbon-Parma? There is not a single country in the world where this lady is legally recognised by that title (even in the Netherlands where her aunt is queen). No royal court gives it to her even unofficially (as happens with many other princes and their titles). She is never called by that title. One might just as well refer to her older brother the Prince of Piacenza as Duke of Madrid, a title he has received from his father but which very very few people accord him. Noel S McFerran (talk) 00:55, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Legally recognized is immaterial; her father bestowed the title upon her, as is his right. Ergo, she should be known as Pss M of B-P, C of C in her article, which can OF COURSE redirect from the more popular name. I mean really... John F Kennedy is more popularly known as JFK; are you arguing that his article should be titled JFK? That would be silly. Similarly, one of the major purposes of an encyclopedia is to provide accurate information. Thus we do not have articles at JFK, Princess Diana, or Jackie O; we have John F. Kennedy, Diana, Princess of Wales, and Jacqueline Onassis, with redirects from the more popular names as appropriate. I really don't understand your antipathy; if we use redirects to the factually correct name, everyone can find the article, no matter which way they are looking. If we use only the more popular name, we open a can of worms that simply isn't worth opening--see my examples above re JFK and others. Following from that, the simplest and most effective solution is to use the correct title at the article, with redirects from the more popular titles, and a line in the lead with "Pss M of B-P, C of C, more popularly known as yadda yadda yadda. This addresses every single point which has been raised, the most important of which is what you yourself said, that each article title should clearly (and, frankly, accurately) reflect the subject of that article. PrinceOfCanada (talk) 13:30, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
"Countess of Colorno" is her official title in the same way that cadets of other deposed dynasties are accorded noble titles by the heads of their houses. Parma was a sovereign duchy: since when are such titles only recognised when issued by royal pretenders (which the Duke of Parma happens to be -- irrelevantly, since Colorno is in Parma). Such titles may or may not be utilised by reigning dynasties, but I am surprised to see it suggested that this is somehow an ultra vires usage within the customary dynastic/genealogical context. As for "Duke of Madrid", that is a title of pretence which I can't really believe you are implying is inappropriately applied unless acknowledged by reigning monarchs. What, then, of the Count of Albany, the duc d'Anjou, or the Margrave of Meissen? That said, I agree that it shouldn't be used as her article's title -- because, per our Naming Convention, it is less common in English than her Bourbon-Parma title, not because it is unofficial. FactStraight (talk) 04:07, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Well, Duke of Albany was stripped, is now in abeyance, and has never been reinstated, so that's kind of a silly argument (I do see where you're coming from, though). And changing the Naming Convention is exactly what we are discussing here. PrinceOfCanada (talk) 13:30, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
I made no reference to any "Duke of Albany", but mentioned the Count of Albany -- and wikilinked the reference so that anyone could readily discover its relevance to the discussion at hand. As for changing the naming convention, I will vote against such a change unless I first see a discussion of the rationale(s) which prompted inclusion of "use the name most common in English" rule into NC(NT). FactStraight (talk) 04:33, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
My bad; I misread. Sorry about that. There's another problem with the "use the name most common in English" rule; shouldn't WP contain the same content in each language? PrinceOfCanada (talk) 06:00, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
It never has before, so where did you get the impression that is a Wikipedia standard? Different languages (and different Wikis) refer to historic individuals differently -- a fact well-attested to and much-discussed in the archives of this talk page. FactStraight (talk) 06:05, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Where did I say it is the standard? I didn't. I asked the question. PrinceOfCanada (talk) 23:55, 8 June 2008 (UTC)