Talk:Muhammad al-Durrah/Archive 5

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Question about sources

Those who reject the criticism of France 2 say that most reliable sources support the original France 2 version of what happened, and that that is therefore the mainstream position. As I recall, all the sources who do this are very early ones, written before anything was known. Do we have any recent mainstream sources who continue to support, or who repeat without criticism, the France 2 version of events? SlimVirgin talk|edits 20:44, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

As far as I know no mainstream media is defending France 2. The current consensus revolves around the judgment against France 2, and the vindication of an accused "slanderer" who was behind the investigation. Wikifan12345 (talk) 20:55, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

This user had no editing history before today. CJCurrie (talk) 21:11, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
SlimVirgin, if you genuinely think that this whole debate is about whether the "original France 2 version" is the agreed mainstream version (as referred to by other editors here), then you need to go away and do a lot of research into this issue and into the talk page debates above about it. --Nickhh (talk) 21:18, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
I did a lot of reading about this in order to do the rewrite. The debate is about the accuracy of the France 2 report, with various views in support and opposed, ranging from the France 2 account being largely accurate but misleadingly described after the fact, all the way to claiming it was a deliberate setup and that the cameraman was aware of that.
What I'm asking is whether we have any recent mainstream sources who do not reflect one of the opposing positions. SlimVirgin talk|edits 21:29, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
Um, no, that is exactly what the debate is not about. The debate is about whether the claim that this individual is dead is a hoax or a fraud, and what weight to put on that theory. It really isn't that difficult to understand. --Nickhh (talk) 21:37, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
Nick, the debate began long before you made an edit to the page. It has been about the extent to which we ought to say "reported this" and "alleged that." This has covered whether the boy is dead to whether the footage shows X or Y, and many other issues. The principle underlying each issue is the same, namely that we do not take sides unless the issue is very clear cut and the opposing sources tiny-minority. Neither is the case here. SlimVirgin talk|edits 21:40, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
I'd rather you didn't patronise me, but nonetheless I'm going to do exactly that to you. For the fourth (?) time, this current debate is very precisely about whether to describe his death as "reported" or "alleged". No serious source has any evidence that he is not dead. Please let all of us know if you have any inside info on this one way or the other . --Nickhh (talk) 21:46, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
Yes but no serious source has any evidence that he IS dead. All information pointing to the "fact" has proven to be largely fabricated, which that in itself should discredit France 2 as a reliable source. And since France 2 is the sole media outlet that initially claimed al-Durrag was dead, there is no other evidence that could prove he is in fact dead.

Get it?

Wikifan12345 (talk) 21:59, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

(edit conflict; reply to Nick) It's interesting you say that I'm patronizing you when I was responding to your "um, no ... it really isn't difficult to understand" and "you need to go away and do a lot of research into this issue."
I repeat: the issue is (and has always been) about the extent to which the mainstream view should be presented as the truth. You are right that no RS has evidence that the boy is alive. Similarly, no RS has evidence that he died. There is no evidence, because for reasons best known to themselves both sides destroyed it, or have failed to produce it. Therefore, we have only a series of narratives, all of which should be included, unless they are genuinely kooky and reproduced only in very dubious publications. But anything the Los Angeles Times sees fit to reproduce is a position we take seriously, like it or not. SlimVirgin talk|edits 22:01, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
Yes, I "get it". You are all, quite seriously, nuts. Cloaking that insanity in speciously rational argument does not help. Present me with the evidence that the moon landings took place or else I will start editing that page with "reportedly" and "allegedly" as well. Please turn the lights off here before you leave. --Nickhh (talk) 22:09, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
I don't appreciate personal attacks nor does anyone else. I'm not quite sure what your angle is here. You say you "get it" (sarcastically), yet offer no insight aside from "your nuts."

I tolerate zealotry, but I don't have to like it. Wikifan12345 (talk) 22:48, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Read previous debates if you genuinely want my insight into this issue and others. "Zealotry" is of course an interesting choice of word.--Nickhh (talk) 22:53, 7 June 2008 (UTC)


Nick, I don't think you've read the sources carefully, because you're including as "nuts" some very serious French journalists who've studied what evidence there is. The problem with the initial reporting is that it was so conclusive, despite the doubts about the footage and the lack of any forensic evidence (and the reporting was particularly conclusive in the UK, where your user page says you live) that people who read it, and who come to look at the issue now, do think that anyone questioning that version is "nuts." But if read all the sources carefully, you can see that there are genuine issues with the initial reporting. That doesn't mean it was necessarily wrong, but it does mean that the media reported material as fact without having checked it. SlimVirgin talk|edits 22:22, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
Yes, and all that debate is covered in the article, even in the lead. What the main page - quite correctly - doesn't do is give equal weight to the idea that he is not dead, which is the ideological preserve of bloggers and right wing fantasists. And anyway that is very different from simply questioning the exact details of what France 2 and Enderlin said at the time. Btw, I read lots of sources, very carefully. --Nickhh (talk) 22:36, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

update: Nothing was conclusive. The media was more than willing to accept another stab at Israel, whether it was true or not. France 2 blatantly lied to the world, then tried to sue the people that were mere steps away from discovering the awful truth. Adding the recent judgment against France 2, and the FACT that al-Durrah is likely still alive, means any conclusion made before the entire world jumped on Israel as unjustified. Let's not forget, sovereign nations worshiped Al-Durrah, declared him a martyr. How embarassing would it be if it was discovered the entire story was a total lie. This is the reason why media outlets aren't willing to spill the truth. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikifan12345 (talk • contribs) 22:54, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Yawn, WP:SOAP. At least that's clear now, in respect of this SPA editor. --Nickhh (talk) 22:59, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
Scoff away Nickhh. I couldn't care less. Wikifan12345 (talk) 23:18, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
Of course you don't. Luckily everyone can see where your edits are coming from now. Transparency can only be a good thing, surely. --Nickhh (talk) 23:33, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Comment: Nickhh and Wikifan12345. It would be better for WP:NAM if you two were to take a step back and open your issues for wider community inspection (see: WP:DR). Nickhh, I would also suggest you review WP:CIV. Calling other editors "You are all, quite seriously, nuts." is a clear violation in my honest opinion. JaakobouChalk Talk 23:51, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

But they are all nuts, that's the nature of conspiracy theorists. Anyway, I believe User:ChrisO may be asking for some form of mediation. How is the bid for adminship going btw? At what point are you going to make it official? --Nickhh (talk) 00:00, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
The problem with this whole issue is that much of the mainstream views are conspiracy theories. ChrisO summarized the mainstream views above as either a) the Israelis killed him, b) the Palestinians killed him or c) we don't know who killed him. Both B and C are in conspiracy theory territory themselves. --JGGardiner (talk) 05:43, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
I don't think that's entirely accurate (being nitpicky here). The big difference between the mainstream and conspiracy theory views is that the mainstream views do not impute motives to the shooting, whereas the conspiracy theories do. Generally speaking, Western media reports have avoided trying to suggest any reason for the shooting other than that the al-Durrahs were "caught in a crossfire". The implicit assumption is that the shooting was accidental, which would be a reasonable assumption given that the al-Durrahs were unarmed civilians. (I should note that Arab sources claim that he was deliberately murdered, but I've not found any sources in European languages that argue that line.) By contrast, the conspiracy theorists are very aggressive about assigning a motive, claiming the existence of a conspiracy involving the media and Palestinians that seeks to defame Israel for propaganda reasons. Now, it's certainly true that the al-Durrah footage has been very extensively used for propaganda, but the conspiracy theorists go beyond this to claim that the footage was created for propaganda purposes from the outset. Consider also the targets of the conspiracy theorists - not just the Palestinians but the media. A Guardian article of 2006 that mentions the al-Durrah conspiracy theories comments that "For some of Israel's supporters, a primary aim of their war on the web is an attempt to discredit what they see as hostile foreign media reports, especially those containing iconic visual images." [1] -- ChrisO (talk) 09:28, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
I realize that most western sources will say the might have been shot by Palestinians but won't say exactly how that might have happened. I suppose there is the fog of war but the al-Durrahs weren't literally in the crossfire were they? From the map in the article it looks like no Palestinian could have been shooting at the Israelis and hit the al-Durrahs. Unless possibly they were to the east and a very bad shot. But the shooter couldn't have been to the east because the bullets are hitting the wall, right? The shooter had to be north of them and nobody to their north could have shot them while aiming at the Israeli post.
So it is true that the media won't speculate how it might have happened. I imagine any media who think "crossfire" must have arrived there by deduction: "If it wasn't the Israelis, it must have been in the crossfire." But I have never seen anyone articulate a particular scenario where the al-Durrahs were shot in the crossfire. I don't think anyone who has looked at the map thinks there was crossfire where the al-Durrahs were. --JGGardiner (talk) 20:02, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
To be exact, the media won't speculate why it might have happened. I don't know how much credence to give to the map since I'm not sure what it's based on. From what I gather from the reporting, there was firing going on in both directions. All we know for sure is that someone with a line of sight to the al-Durrahs sprayed them with automatic fire. That could have been an Israeli fearing they were snipers, or it could have been a careless Palestinian or Israeli accidentally discharging his weapon at their position. We don't know, of course, and it's impossible to determine the "why" of the shooting, which is probably the reason the media have avoided that topic. The conspiracy theorists have come up with their own "why" but it's as much speculation as anyone else's "why". -- ChrisO (talk) 23:51, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Nickhh, I suggest you focus your comments on article improvement. PhilKnight (talk) 00:04, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Fair point, apologies. Most of them have been though. --Nickhh (talk) 00:09, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
I agree that more focus should be put on cleaning up the article. However I think it's perfectly reasonable to point out the blatant partisan tactics going on in this discussion. ChisO clearly has his own agenda and his stance in this article is far from neutral. A ranking admin with a personal agenda in a hot topic such as this one is quite alarming. I hope some of you agree.Wikifan12345 (talk) 01:28, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
My only "agenda", as you put it, is upholding the integrity of Wikipedia, particularly when people are trying to use it as a platform for advocacy (you've made your own position very clear). Remember that Wikipedia is not a soapbox. -- ChrisO (talk) 09:28, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Comment - please be reminded that CAMERA (spectacularly exposed as conspiring to cheat here only a few weeks ago), have long been taking a special interest in this case, with an extraordinary 33 articles devoted to it. CAMERA's director, Andrea Levin has made their intention clear: "CAMERA has taken some cautious steps into the non-English-speaking arena. One subject of particular interest is the Mohammed Al Dura issue. ... We, like many others, do not consider this a closed chapter. The more so as the journalist who made the report, Charles Enderlin, and his cameraman are still employed by France 2." Under these circumstances brand new SPAs (do we now have 3?),should be treated not just with caution, but with grave suspicion.
Can I also remind people that we've now had several examples of established editors carrying out deliberate cheating (often supremely confident, as if they had complete impunity). In (all?) cases these cheats seem to have been on good (even exceptionally good) terms with other established editors of a "similar" POV. Editors currently in front of the ArbCom on charges of abusing admin tools ("long term problematic behavior" in the words of her chief accuser) should be particularly careful about engaging with highly suspicious editors apparently arrived for a smear campaign on career journalists. PRtalk 09:18, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Comment (on the comment above by User:PalestineRemembered) - What is it now ? Not even "guilt by association" but guilt by having similar areas of interest? PS is this a "non-English-speaking" wikipedia ? --Julia1987 (talk) 11:39, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Obviously a user named User:PalestineRemembered after a website of the same name [2]("The Home of Ethnically Cleansed & Occupied Palestinians") could hardly be seen as neutral in this discussion. Shame. One could as easily suggest that he is a stooge for PalestineRemembered.com or Electronic Intifada. Tundrabuggy (talk) 12:09, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
PR, please stop going on about CAMERA; you, in particular, with the user name you chose, can't point the finger at anyone else regarding being on Wikipedia to emphasize a particular POV.
The only thing that matters for us is that the article clearly reflect what reliable sources have said, and that no view is presented as though it's the truth. It takes nuanced writing to do that in a situation where sources on both sides are sometimes presenting thoughtful material, but are often simply repeating propaganda. The current first sentence, which states as fact that the boy was killed, is not good writing, or NPOV, because it aligns itself with one camp, and introduces the story as though part of it didn't exist.
The boy was "reported to have been killed" is correct, and does not in any way indicate that WP believes he is still alive; it simply introduces the reader to a narrative that has twists and turns in it, rather than pretending that narrative isn't there. SlimVirgin talk|edits 18:02, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
"The only thing that matters for us is that the article clearly reflect what reliable sources have said" - amen to that. --Julia1987 (talk) 18:29, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
I agree wholeheartedly. So what reliable sources say he was not killed? No, not just those that refer to the "hoax" claims - in passing or even with a hint of approval - but what reliable sources say he is, definitely, still alive? Come on, can someone finally answer that question and provide that information? Until these are presented, it is neither bad writing or POV to say simply he was killed. We don't use the (yes, strictly accurate) qualifier "it was reported .." each time we use reliable media sources for information in Wikipedia, unless there is a genuine disagreement between different mainstream sources about a specific matter of fact, which is not the case here. We take mainstream media reports as being accurate unless and until they are corrected or retracted. As discussed ad nauseam there is of course a dispute in mainstream sources about who killed him and exactly how he died, and this is all reflected in the introduction. As indeed is the fringe allegation that he is not dead at all. --Nickhh (talk) 19:17, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
  • WSJ says "allegedly killed" --Julia1987 (talk) 19:20, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
No it doesn't. In an online editorial it make a brief reference to him being "allegedly killed by Israeli bullets". I am not going to waste any more time debating with you if this is the standard of evidence you are going to bring, and if you are going to ignore all the points about WP:RS that have been made to you hundreds of times. This article is now locked, and you cannot currently insert your POV into it anyway. --Nickhh (talk) 19:27, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Almost all sources are now saying "reportedly" or "allegedly." Here, the Miami Herald says "supposedly." I can't think why we had "reported to have been killed" in this article for, I believe, years, and suddenly someone tried to remove it just as a French court said that doubts about the footage have not been dispelled. This is just not realistic. As I said earlier, can someone produce a recent reliable source who affirms that the boy was indeed killed? SlimVirgin talk|edits 19:30, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Am I the only person here who can actually read more than six words in one go? That Miami Herald piece says not simply "supposedly killed", but "supposedly killed by Israeli soldiers". And in any event it is clearly another comment piece, which should not be taken as a reliable source for issues of fact. And in addition I am of course asking for reliable sources that definitively say he is alive and therefore give real weight to the dispute, not ones which simply debate the overall controversy and refer to the hoax theory, even if approvingly. And finally, as also discussed ad nauseam above, the fact that poor phrasing was allowed to fester in this article for so long proves nothing. I tried to remove it on at least one occasion in the past and was reverted. Thank god it has now gone and won't be back for a while. --Nickhh (talk) 19:38, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
The "supposedly killed by Israeli soldiers" issue is irrelevant. Multiple reliable sources are now reporting that the incident may have been a hoax at worst, and that, at best, there is something odd about the footage, and France 2's reluctance to show all of it. You can dismiss this or that source, but there are too many for them all to be dismissed, and it means the idea can no longer be entertained that this is a straightforward issue, and that anyone disagreeing is verging on conspiracism. That is the only point that matters for us, because it has to inform the tone of the article. The current first sentence, for example, has to go. SlimVirgin talk|edits 19:46, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Here are a number of recent reliable sources from around the world reporting, to varying degrees, that the incident may have been a hoax. The onus is on editors who disagree with this analysis, and who feel it is fringe conspiracy material, to produce recent reliable sources who affirm the accuracy of the original reporting. SlimVirgin talk|edits 19:35, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for the above Google link, which appears to bring up a fairly eclectic collection of occasional commentary from partisan "news sites", one or two online op-eds from conservative columnists in American or Australian newspapers discussing the issue in very broad theoretical terms and of course an op-ed from the Jerusalem Post in which the writer actually lays into the "conspiracy theorists". But no reliable sources whatsoever explicitly saying he was not killed. Sorry, but the onus is on YOU and others to justify why you want the weasel words "was reported" to appear in this article, when it refers to al-Durrah's death itself. --Nickhh (talk) 19:50, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Let's not forget that using "reportedly" puts undue weight on the tiny-minority view that he is not dead. As I've said before, it's like saying that the Apollo astronauts "reportedly" went to the Moon or that the WTC was "reportedly" destroyed by hijacked aircraft. I've already pointed out what WP:UNDUE states on how to treat small- or tiny-minority viewpoints. Could you try addressing that point rather than constantly ignoring it, please? -- ChrisO (talk) 20:00, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
The repeated Apollo references seem to be irrelevant in this case - the sources for the disputes are nowhere on the same level of reliability. Kelly hi! 20:04, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
It is not a tiny-minority view anymore. Please look at the number of mainstream sources implying it was a hoax, or openly calling it that. SlimVirgin talk|edits 20:05, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
And SV you are still confusing the debate about the accuracy of the original France 2 report in terms of how it said he was killed, with the entirely different debate about whether he is dead or not and whether the entire scene was faked. This has been endlessly explained and pointed out, but it never seems to sink in. --Nickhh (talk) 20:03, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
These are reliable sources according to our sourcing policy, WP:V. You can't go through them all and dismiss every single one: this is commentary, that one is partisan, that one conservative, this one Australian. Your opinion and my opinion of the issue or the sources is irrelevant when they are as widespread and as mainstream as this. The point is now being made by serious commentators (I suspect you strongly dislike them but that doesn't mean they're not serious) that this was a blood libel, [3] and that the speed with which it spread, and the intensity of the belief in it despite the lack of any evidence, is sadly illustrative of people's attitudes toward Jews/Israel. You personally may think this is nonsense, but it's a legitimate point of view, which this article needs to reflect, as it does all the other POVS that reliable sources see fit to publish (whether as news or commentary). SlimVirgin talk|edits 20:05, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
No they're not. They include blogs and personally published websites. Nor do they all "imply it was a hoax". Some do, yes, but many just report on the claims that it was a hoax. Please stop misrepresenting sources like that. -- ChrisO (talk) 20:22, 8 June 2008 (UTC)


Repeating my request

Would the editors who believe the "video-might-have-been-a-hoax" view is tiny-minority conspiracism please produce some recent, mainstream, reliable sources who dismiss that theory out of hand, who say or imply that it's a fringe view, and who affirm the original reporting? SlimVirgin talk|edits 20:09, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Or even just recent sources who affirm the original reporting without mentioning the so-called fringe views? SlimVirgin talk|edits 20:10, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Again, SV, read WP:FRINGE. Nobody responds to your request because they don't need to. They don't need to because those of us with long experience working on conspiracy theory/fringe articles know that "where are the sources saying the theory is wrong" is always answered with "there aren't any, because its a fringe theory not worth anyone's time". So your question is irrelevant per the standard policy for such pages. Move on and actually make a case for inclusion, please. --Relata refero (disp.) 22:01, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
It doesn't work like that. You are attempting to dismiss eight years' worth of news reporting in favour of two weeks' worth. That's a textbook case of recentism, and it blatantly contravenes WP:UNDUE. You also ignore the fact that the majority of sources which reported on the original shooting have not returned to the story since. The recent court verdict has actually attracted relatively little attention (some of the partisan websites have complained about this). I can't think of a single source which has said "ok, we got this one wrong." -- ChrisO (talk) 20:25, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
No, that's not accurate, Chris. The vast majority of the anti-hoax sources (if I can put it that way) were published shortly after the incident, when nothing was known. I am not dismissing eight years' worth of sources, but about 12 months' worth, if even that. It is over the last seven years or so that alternative views have emerged, and they now actually appear to be the mainstream view — that there is a strong possibility this was a hoax, either entirely or in part. Or, at best, that it was an example of poor journalism with crucial parts of the footage being cut, and then that not being admitted to. SlimVirgin talk|edits 20:30, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Sorry, I didn't address the last part of your post. Yes, I agree. It is a feature of journalism that reporters rarely come back to a story if it's been messed up, to say "we stand by the original," or "no, we got it wrong." The problem it leaves us with is that finding the mainstream view is difficult. The mainstream view back in 2000 was that he had been killed by someone (Israelis, Palestinians, both), and the mainstream view now seems to be that it was a hoax. Therefore, we should simply reflect all views that reliable sources have published. SlimVirgin talk|edits 20:33, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Have you actually sat down and systematically reviewed the sources and how the story has developed? I have, and this is what I found by doing a systematic Lexis-Nexis search. In 2000, the story was very widely covered with hundreds of reliable sources reporting first on the "Israel killed al-Durrah" viewpoint and then the "maybe the Palestinians killed al-Durrah" POV that the Israeli army subsequently promoted. Apparently Karsenty et al first started promoting their conspiracy theory around 2002, but it wasn't until France 2 sued Karsenty in 2004 that the conspiracy theory got any real attention. (That's always the problem with libel suits - they draw attention to the defamatory allegations that the plaintiff is trying to suppress.) At the same time, two newspapers in the same group - the Jerusalem Post and Canada's National Post, which I believe were both owned by Conrad Black at the time - began running a series of op-eds arguing for the conspiracy theory.
Now the important qualifier: very few of the articles mentioning the conspiracy theory actually endorse it, and virtually all of the handful that do are op-eds (which, per WP:RS, cannot be used to support statements of fact). The total number of articles that even mention the conspiracy theory number perhaps a few dozen. The number of articles over the entire eight-year period that describe the al-Durrah killing as a matter of fact numbers many hundreds. Even when discussing the conspiracy theory, many of the articles state clearly that al-Durrah is dead (see e.g. [4]). We cannot simply dismiss all of that coverage in favour of a few dozen articles which report on the views of a few activists - not the Israeli government or army, or any official body at all - or indeed a handful of articles by op-ed columnists. -- ChrisO (talk) 21:18, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Black's company sold its remaining stake in the National Post to CanWest in 2001. But they had both been Hollinger papers before then. --JGGardiner (talk) 21:34, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
First, Chris, an important point: RS is not policy, and in fact is a widely ignored guideline because it keeps changing. V is the policy. Opinion pieces are fine so long as the publication is a good one, or the writer, and there is in-text attribution if the view is contentious.
Secondly, the BBC article that says the boy died is from 2007, before the recent evidence and ruling. Can you find a more recent one where a reliable source writes that the boy died, or implies it in some way?
And yes, I spent days reading the sources when I did the rewrite. SlimVirgin talk|edits 21:41, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

I think what makes this difficult is that nobody is really sure of what happened. I notice in the court documents that the judges note that even Landes thinks the probablity of that this was a staged scene is only "supérieure à 95%". So even one of the originators of the theory isn't really sure what happened. It is hard for us to say with certainty what even Landes won't. On the other hand, there are these serious questions. It is hard to pick apart what was a journalistic error and what is a discrepancy in the whole story. This is just the kind of thing that makes it hard to write an encyclopeida article, especially with multiple authors. --JGGardiner (talk) 21:27, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes, that is exactly right. The "hoax theory" (for the sake of identifying opposing views) has wide latitude. At its heart, it says that this was not good journalism, that there is no evidence that anyone died, and that France 2 showed poor judgment in their original reporting and/or their subsequent responses. At the extreme end of the theory, some people are saying the entire thing was a set up. The bottom line is that no current reliable source seems to want to publish that the boy is dead, because there is now too much reasonable doubt about what happened. SlimVirgin talk|edits 21:41, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
One other point. You seem to be arguing that the small number of journals which have reported on the verdict now (a) constitute "the mainstream view" and (b) that by reporting on the case they're somehow endorsing the conspiracy theory. That's nonsense. The vast majority of the media have not reported at all on the story. Even some of the conspiracy theorists are complaining that the media is somehow "ignoring" the verdict. The media outlets that have reported on it are, as Nickh rightly says, predominately conservative. You might be able to argue that the conspiracy theory is a mainstream view in the conservative media (though you would have the difficulty of defining what's in that category). But you can't possibly argue that it's the mainstream view when the vast majority of the mainstream hasn't even mentioned it. It's also undeniably not been supported by the Israeli government or military, something which I note Karsenty has been complaining about. -- ChrisO (talk) 21:37, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
So what that certain newspapers are conservative? Most of those continuing to report (until last year) that he had died in the way France 2 claimed were left-wing. It matters not. If they count as reliable sources, the politics are irrelevant. We report what they have said without taking sides. SlimVirgin talk|edits 21:44, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Their political leanings matter only inasmuch as that they are only a section of the media as a whole. They do not constitute "the mainstream" all by themselves. And once again you're ignoring the central point: yes, we report what they have said, but WP:UNDUE directs not to treat minority views with as much weight as majority ones. Are you ever going to address this point? I'm going to keep hammering on it until you do. -- ChrisO (talk) 21:55, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Chris, I posted a list of newspapers reporting these allegations above. They are not only conservative, but even if they were, it means that a substantial part of the media sees the allegations as worthy of reporting without commenting that they are clearly wrong or nuts. And so must we. There is no way we can do otherwise. That the original story is deeply problematic in some way is no longer a tiny-minority view, as I've said many times. SlimVirgin talk|edits 22:06, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Op-eds are not reports. Given that, the rest of what you say is irrelevant. Give it up, SV, this is not worth your time. --Relata refero (disp.) 22:10, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
I'm not arguing that they are "clearly wrong or nuts". Personally I don't take a position on the issue. I don't know who killed al-Durrah and I don't particularly care, to be honest. I deliberately haven't watched the video because I don't want my personal impressions of it to colour my edits (and my own view of it is irrelevant anyway, since that's OR). I'm going solely by (a) what the totality of reliable sources have said (not giving a small number of articles over two weeks a higher priority than a huge number over eight years); (b) what WP:NPOV requires, specifically concerning undue weight; and not least (c) what WP:BLP requires, since the conspiracy theory so clearly affects the reputations of multiple living people. -- ChrisO (talk) 22:28, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Arbitrary break

To go deeper into my previous suggestion, I believe the article's focus should be on who reported (and what he further claimed), since that's the point of conflict. Saying "reported to have been killed" actually promotes the perspective that he might not have been killed a little bit and the main contest is the claim that he was "controversially reported to have been targeted and killed by Israeli soldiers -- with the Palestinian cameraman going further, saying "that the child was intentionally and in cold blood shot dead". This version certainly doesn't promote that the boy is alive, and leaves enough room for the "following XXX and YYY, many accused that that the report was staged" perspective also to be presented in the following line. Thoughts/Suggestions? JaakobouChalk Talk 19:10, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

I have tried to wrap my head around what you are saying but it doesn't seem to work. Could you please rephrase? By the way, NickH contends that there is no way that the original will be changed for some time. If that is true, and if as ChrisO contends that it is POV to include "reportedly," and that NPOV trumps consensus....what exactly is the point of this argument? The article will remain locked until consensus is reached that agrees with ChrisO's belief as to what constitutes NPOV? Are there wiki mediators who do not have a stake in this argument? Tundrabuggy (talk) 21:08, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
NPOV is non-negotiable and expected of all articles, and of all article editors, and cannot be superseded by editors' consensus.. Go and read WP:NPOV - I'm quoting directly from the second paragraph. If you can't accept that principle, you shouldn't be editing here in the first place. -- ChrisO (talk) 21:22, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
That's exactly what most of us are arguing — that this article not take a position, because there are many mainstream sources supporting and opposing the various views. SlimVirgin talk|edits 21:32, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
The bit that you and the conspiracy theorists are resolutely ignoring is just below that section I cited - namely WP:UNDUE. We do not give minority positions as much weight as majority ones. There are also many mainstream sources arguing that the Srebrenica massacre never happened, that global warming is a hoax and so on. But as a proportion of the overall reliable published literature on those subjects, those sources are minority views and we do not use weasel words like "reportedly" to put such views on the same footing as the mainstream views, right at the top of an article. I really don't know why you're bothering to take this line, as the policy is unambiguously stated in WP:UNDUE. Note also that WP:UNDUE states "Keep in mind that in determining proper weight we consider a viewpoint's prevalence in reliable sources", not "a viewpoint's prevalence in reliable sources published in the last two weeks". -- ChrisO (talk) 21:50, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
"You and the conspiracy theorists" -- come on, Chris, that just isn't fair. I've spent as much time on this page (if not more) trying to keep out the wilder conspiracy theories as trying to make sure that the more reasonable doubts are allowed in. SlimVirgin talk|edits 22:28, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
(deleted - WP:BLP -- ChrisO (talk) 22:33, 8 June 2008 (UTC))
OR. When the majority, or a significant minority of reliable sources, make a similar claim, please return. --Relata refero (disp.) 22:22, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
SV, I'm not calling you a conspiracy theorist, otherwise I would have done so. But let's not pretend that we don't have any active conspiracy theorists on this page, OK? Wikifan12345, I've redacted your allegations about France 2 - please note that Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons applies to talk pages as well as articles (and also note that I can block you for violating it). I'm going to enforce this from now on, so please don't repeat it. -- ChrisO (talk) 22:33, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Chris, with respect, neither of us can block anyone involved in this article, because we ourselves are both involved. SlimVirgin talk|edits 22:41, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Not so - "Administrators may enforce the removal of such material with page protection and blocks, even if they have been editing the article themselves." (WP:BLP#Remove unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material). BLP is an exception to the normal rules. -- ChrisO (talk) 22:52, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Question: Any thoughts/suggestions about my comment from above please? I thought it was a reasonable compromise suggestion that might actually be accepted. JaakobouChalk Talk 23:09, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, Jaakobou, I don't think it's so much a case of people ignoring you as people not really understanding you. Like Tundrabuggy, I don't really get what you're trying to say. Could you suggest a form of words for the article that would address the concerns you've raised? -- ChrisO (talk) 23:44, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Some May-June 2008 mainstream sources

  • BBC News, UK, May 22: Reports the French court verdict; studiously avoids saying the boy is dead, which they have always done in the past.
  • Ottawa Citizen, Canada, May 24: opinion piece saying the footage was a lie.
Op-ed. -- ChrisO (talk) 22:35, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
  • News.com.au, Australia, May 29: Says the boy is seen to move, and even look "conspiratorially" at the camera, after France 2 had declared him dead.
Op-ed. -- ChrisO (talk) 22:35, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Op-ed. -- ChrisO (talk) 22:35, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Op-ed. Blog post. -- ChrisO (talk) 22:35, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
How is this a blog post? And if you don't like it, read the previous story of theirs that they link to. There is nothing wrong with op-eds, so long as we provide in-text attribution. Do not be so dismissive of sources you disagree with, please. SlimVirgin talk|edits 22:39, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Op-eds are not reports. They are distinctly less useful and encyclopaedic as sources of fact, per long precedent and usage, especially in areas subject to heavy propagandising. I would imagine that you are already aware of this. --Relata refero (disp.) 22:41, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Also, its a blog post because it says its a blog post. --Relata refero (disp.) 22:42, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
I do recommend this new movie: http://www.seconddraft.org/movies.php "France 2 vs. Evidence" Narrated by Richard Landes. Not a reliable source but well worth looking at as it discusses the evidence using the film and analysis and interviews with the father and the cameraman. Tundrabuggy (talk) 00:30, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
I call it a blog because it's Melanie Phillips' personal blog on the Spectator website? The print edition certainly doesn't cover the story - I should know, I get it on subscription. Also, it's not that I disagree with them, it's simply that what you're citing is mostly columnists giving their opinion (that's why they're called "opinion pieces", you know), not reporters doing actual journalism. Their parroting of the Karsenty-Landes conspiracy theory doesn't advance our knowledge of the story one inch. By way of analogy, op-ed columnists have claimed that Barack Obama is a Muslim; on that basis, should our article on him state that he is only "reportedly" a Christian? -- ChrisO (talk) 22:49, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

I've elsewhere linked to the Los Angeles Times and International Herald Tribune. It isn't possible to continue to claim that no or few reliable sources take this seriously. SlimVirgin talk|edits 22:28, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

So let's see, including the LA Times and IHT we have... 2 articles that aren't op-eds? Please. -- ChrisO (talk) 22:35, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Please take the opinion sources and those that talk about the conspiracy theory rather than the incident itself out if you wish this list to be taken seriously. Please also familiarise yourself with the standard approach about conspiracy theories. The talkpages of the 9/11 arbitration, WP:FTN and WP:FRINGE would be a start. --Relata refero (disp.) 22:34, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
This is not a conspiracy theory. It's a very, very complex story, probably the most complex I've encountered on Wikipedia. I had to do some serious reading to know enough to do the rewrite last year, must more reading than would normally be necessary, because there are a number of theories, most of them put forward by serious commentators who have evaluated the evidence, including the raw footage. I suggest that anyone commenting here do the same before going any further. Things really aren't what they seem, and the more you read, the more confusing it gets. SlimVirgin talk|edits 22:38, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
OK, replace what I say with "complex stories" and do what I suggest anyway. This is no different from a dozen other such complex stories, and will not be treated as different either. --Relata refero (disp.) 22:40, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
But it is being treated differently: we are stating as fact something that no reliable source now states as fact. More sources below, as I posted above. I again recommend this wording with an update to include the recent verdict. SlimVirgin talk|edits 22:46, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
That is no different from anywhere else. "Now" means nothing: we are not news, nor do we make OR-y inferences of the sort you suggest. If you do indeed find a source indicating that a significant minority of informed opinion now believes that this was a hoax, please present it here, rather than this combination of op-eds and analysis of what "isn't there". Please believe me, these are approaches that have been seen before, and are precisely what WP:FRINGE has been written to stamp out. --Relata refero (disp.) 22:57, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
I wasn't aware that you'd ever been involved in this article before. SlimVirgin talk|edits 23:28, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
I see no point to that statement. Please detail any objections to my post, or take it on board and alter your approach appropriately. I have some considerable experience in articles that are subject to fringe activist campaigns, and I detailed above the approach not to take to such in order to stay within our policies. --Relata refero (disp.) 23:41, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
I see that neither your current nor previous account has been involved here before, so I'm assuming you haven't read the voluminous source material. What triggered your interest today, incidentally? SlimVirgin talk|edits 23:46, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
I posted an alert about this to the fringe theories noticeboard. Relata commented on the matter there several days ago. -- ChrisO (talk) 23:58, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Two things: first, a familiarity with everything ever written about an incident is not necessary to recognise a fringe POV - requiring that would make our job impossible (and claiming it is necessary is also something a lot of us have seen before in such articles) and second, I'm not discussing my "current or previous account" here or anywhere, thanks, and it is neither appropriate nor good conduct for you to bring it up on an article talkpage. It should be blindingly obvious why I'm here, this has been on AN/I and at FT/N, both of which I read and post to regularly, so I can't imagine why on earth you asked a question that has such an incredibly obvious answer. Please stay on-point and away from personalities, SV, this is not doing anyone any good.
Again, we are not news, nor do we make in the text original inferences of the sort you suggest. If you do indeed find a source indicating that a significant minority of informed opinion now believes that this was a hoax, please present it here, rather than any further combination of op-eds and analysis of what "isn't there". These are approaches that have been seen before elsewhere, and are precisely what WP:FRINGE has been written to stamp out. You should read that sometime, by the way. --Relata refero (disp.) 23:56, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
  • A Reuters story reporting that a court has supported a critic who claims the French tape of the reported killing may have been doctored.
  • An International Herald Tribune story reporting the doubts over the tape.
  • A Los Angeles Times report (reproduced by Jewish World Review).
  • The Esther Shapira documentary, "Three Bullets and a Child: Who Killed the Young Muhammad al-Dura?", shown on ARD television in Germany, which contains the extraordinary interview with the original cameraman who shot the footage, who laughs when asked why no bullets were recovered.
  • A Wall Street Journal Europe opinion piece (reproduced by Isranet; scroll down to see it).
  • Then there is the original footage itself, which anyone can view, and from which the correspondent/cameraman clearly cut out a scene at the end, where the boy appears to move.
Speaking of cutting things out, do you suppose that you could cut out the original research that screams out from your last line? It would be helpful if you could also stop misrepresenting sources. That Reuters story you cite says no such thing (the word "supported" never appears). The court found only that Karsenty had not violated the Press Law of 1881 under which he was sued. Moreschi has put it very concisely over on WP:FTN: ""Is not libellous" is not synonymous with "is true". That is very easy to understand." -- ChrisO (talk) 22:50, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Chris, if you read all the reports, you'll see that the court appears to have gone further than that in his remarks. I believe people are waiting for the full decision to be published. SlimVirgin talk|edits 23:27, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
It has been published and I've read it. My comments were based on reading that full text in conjunction with what the French media has reported about it in brief. -- ChrisO (talk) 23:42, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Can you provide a link to the full decision, please? SlimVirgin talk|edits 23:44, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Sure - see http://www.theaugeanstables.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/arret-appel-21-05-08-trebucq.PDF . It's on Richard Landes' personally published website, so it's not a reliable source per se, but the document certainly seems authentic enough. -- ChrisO (talk) 23:53, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Thank you. SlimVirgin talk|edits 00:34, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
Just to add a bit more detail, the law in question enables a defendant to evade a conviction for defamation if it can be proven that (a) the matter is of genuine public concern, (b) the publisher has acted in good faith and (c) he has made at least a basic attempt to verify the defamatory material. Truth doesn't enter into it - not only is truth not an absolute defence, but courts are apparently specifically forbidden from investigating the truth of defamatory statements. If you read the judgement (which I have, in the original French - hard work, I can tell you) it states - as the French media has reported - that (a) the matter is of public concern; (b) Karsenty wasn't motivated by malice, therefore good faith is assumed; and (c) the witnesses called by Karsenty supported some or all of his claims, so he had made at least some attempt at verification. But the court also said, to quote the Reuters report you linked to, that "Karsenty did not provide proof of his allegations." So claims that the court in this case did endorse Karsenty's conspiracy theory (how could it, if it said he didn't have any proof?) are basically self-serving bunk. -- ChrisO (talk) 23:09, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
False, yet again. Read the article in question, which, under 'defeneces' clearly says 'Truth of the defamatory statement is available as a defense in most libel cases'. Now, of course, you already know this, because you wrote the article in question. What you hope to accomplish with this easily proven false statement, is beyond me. Canadian Monkey (talk) 23:18, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
And, since yoyu read the verdict, you also know that in addition to the above, the court stated that (d) the testimony of the Palestinian cameraman, which is , in essence, ALL the France 2 offered as evidence for their case, is not credible, and (e) that the thesis brought about by Karnesty and supported by his expert witnesses, that the event was staged, can't be dismissed. Canadian Monkey (talk) 23:22, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
There are no hard facts to prove the boy's death or his non-death. All we have are assumptions based on a film and a film-maker's word. The idea that the boy is dead is as much an opinion as the one that he is alive -at least until we have a body to exhume and test. The fact that everyone believed it initially may in fact have been due to a hoax (as the French courts say is not a libelous position). Until we exhume a body and do DNA testing everything will be op-eds. Until then all we have is Enderlin's assertion and a film. What France 2 produced as evidence of the boy's death is being reviewed by the courts & the world press and found wanting. Tundrabuggy (talk) 23:24, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
And if the world press pronouces it false in reports, we will update this article dutifully. Till then, we do not rely on two op-eds and a blog post. All the other detail you provide is irrelevant to questions of sourcing and evaluation of weight. --Relata refero (disp.) 23:45, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
I'm not going to get into debating evidence with a conspiracy theorist because (a) that's original research and (b) it's like mud-wrestling with a pig. But I will note that the original reporting on the killing didn't depend solely on the videotape - there were also a number of reports from the hospitals involved and the funeral, as well as comments by Palestinian, Israeli and Jordanian figures (including the then King of Jordan). Larry Derfner noted in a recent JPost op-ed that the alleged conspiracy would have had to involve "journalist Charles Enderlin, his Palestinian cameraman, al-Dura's father, a hospital in Gaza, a hospital in Amman, the Jordanian ambassador to Israel, the UN, the Palestinian people" and who knows who else. There was much contemporary reporting of the events immediately after the shooting, not just on the day itself, by many more journalists than just Enderlin. -- ChrisO (talk) 23:40, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Chris, the person who interviewed the father in hospital was the same cameraman, again alone. Otherwise, all sources are secondary, to the best of my knowledge. SlimVirgin talk|edits 23:47, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Do you have a source for that assertion? My own reliably published source (L'Humanité, 22 November 2004) states that the father was treated in a military hospital in Amman, Jordan, where he was visited by the King of Jordan. I'm pretty sure that the King of Jordan was not the person who took the pictures in Gaza. -- ChrisO (talk) 23:56, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
So? What was the King testifying to, even if he was there? The boy was obviously not there, alive or dead. At best, the King could testify that the father was being treated for some injury in the hospital - not where this injury was sustained. Canadian Monkey (talk) 00:14, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
Even if he was there? Are you implying that the conspiracy extended to faking a visit by King Abdullah? Those conspirators sure do have a long reach! According to the contemporary reports, the father underwent multiple operations by military surgeons for "wounds to both legs, one arm and his midsection, and spent four months in a Jordanian hospital." Incidentally, that needs to be reflected in the article when it's unprotected. -- ChrisO (talk) 00:28, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
No, I'm implying that I don't have a source in front of me that says teh King was there, so at this point in time, I can's coment one way or theother on hi sbein g there. Now, Answer the question: what was the King testifying to, as a primary source? Canadian Monkey (talk) 01:02, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
There was one contemporaneous interview published with the father, and the interviewer was the cameraman, acting alone. I don't have time to look for a source right now, but it's in most of the comprehensive sources; it was also in the version of the article I linked to above, after the rewrite. He may have been photographed with various celebrities at later dates, and he gave interviews at later dates too (although not always saying the same thing), but the main interview that was relied on by the early reports was conducted by the same cameraman, who is not someone who would normally conduct interviews. SlimVirgin talk|edits 23:59, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Perhaps it would be useful to compile a list of people we know for sure are primary sources i.e. people who have firsthand knowledge of what happened. The two that I know of are the cameraman and the father. There would be whichever doctors treated the boy, but did they ever release a statement about the boy? SlimVirgin talk|edits 00:02, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
We do not need to rely on primary sources in any way. Enough secondary sources exist. --Relata refero (disp.) 00:18, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
I agree with Relata. For the record, according to an AFP/AP report of 4 October 2000 the Jordanian doctors spoke publicly about the treatment of the boy's father ("Doctors in Jordan have said Mr. Durra will have permanent paralysis in the right hand and has been psychologically traumatized.") and there are extensive quotes from an interview he gave in Jordan the previous day. I don't know if that's the same one as yours. I found a Le Monde article of 20 November 2004 stating that the Palestinian cameraman had interviewed the father in October 2004; maybe that's the one you mean? Some of the conspiracy theorists are quoted as citing reports from the Gaza hospital where the boy was taken, so evidently they must have given a public statement of some sort as well. Of course, all this goes some way to address the false claim that the whole story rests on one grainy videotape. -- ChrisO (talk) 00:23, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
The Palestinian cameraman interviewed the boy's father when he was first admitted to hospital. It was the first interview and the one the media relied on. But did any doctor (or any other primary source) give a statement about the boy? It is what happened to the boy that we're discussing, not the father. SlimVirgin talk|edits 00:34, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
Again, no need to worry about primary sources. If several secondary sources note that a doctor discussed the nature of the supposed boy's alleged injuries, it might be relevant. Till then, no. --Relata refero (disp.) 00:38, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
I think there is no dispute that the "supposed boy" was, in fact, an actual boy. ;-) -- ChrisO (talk) 00:50, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

This entire "it would have had to have been a wide conspiracy" has been dealt with already. There is ample proof that Gazans are capable of orchestrating wide conspiracies, and of Western media falling for it, if not willingly playing along. Canadian Monkey (talk) 00:12, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

See above. I think this entire section of discussion is irrelevant to the central point. As and when the mainstream media wakes up in the manner in which that blog wishes it does, we will change this article. --Relata refero (disp.) 00:18, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
I have seen above. Numerous sources, from Aftenposten through Ha'aretz to ARD have been presented, in which current media news reports treat the hoax theory as at least plausible, if not likely. Perhaps you should get around to finaly reading them. Canadian Monkey (talk) 01:02, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
Or to put it more succinctly, "dirty ragheads and liberal media are all liars", which I suspect is the underlying subtext if the blogged comments by some of the conspiracy theorists' supporters are anything to go by. -- ChrisO (talk) 00:23, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
You mean like Derfner's piece, which you are recommending all over the place, can be summarized succinctly, as "dirty lying Israelis and their supporters are to blame for all the world's ills"? Canadian Monkey (talk) 01:02, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
The other way of looking at it is that critical thinking is always important. SlimVirgin talk|edits 00:34, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
Not on WP, not to the extent of second-guessing the vast majority of reliable sources, no. In fact, that's the very opposite of important. :) --Relata refero (disp.) 00:38, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
Anyone not understanding the importance of critical thinking will not be able to understand this case.
As for your other point, where you say "till then, no" or something. Till when and no to what? I am losing the point of your posts here. If you have something of substance to add, by all means add it. SlimVirgin talk|edits 00:46, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but I think you seem to think that critical thinking has a place in assembling secondary sources. It does not. Please do not use it to second-guess our sources, as that is original research. The collation of primary sources in order to do that is also original research. If you have any future trouble with comprehension, please feel free to ask. --Relata refero (disp.) 07:41, 9 June 2008 (UTC)


An answer to Relata[5]:

"We must take into account new information as it appears and this is the crux of the issue now: court have heard expert testimony and ruled. You and ChrisO are as disruptive as people who would still cling to the theory of "flat earth" after a voyage around the globe have been completed."

--Julia1987 (talk) 03:05, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

The question is what the court ruled on. As the French press reporting makes very clear, it ruled on the narrow question of whether Karsenty was guilty of libel, not the bigger question of whether Karsenty was right. Nowhere in the judgement does the court say that Karsenty's witnesses were right - only that their views could not be dismissed. It's a lot more nuanced than the conspiracy theorists have claimed. -- ChrisO (talk) 07:26, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
Thank you ChrisO: It is nice that you offer us your own (very original) view but above you rejected published op-eds ….
If you don't mind we shall simply ignore your interpretation and analysis of the verdict and go by what the published sources understood the ramification of the verdict is. We can start with the WSJ source: [6] or use any of Slim's sources above you rejected.
As for the facts in this matter:
Since the French court ruled the Karsenty/Shpira/Shahaf version has a valid reason to be presented we in wikipedia shall do exactly that - We shall present two versions:
  1. The Abu-Rahma/ Enderlin version
  2. The Karsenty version
--Julia1987 (talk) 14:52, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

And we shall describe the controversy as this is exactly what WP:NPOV require us to do.

Please do not get sidetracked into discussing the moment of the verdict. Neither individual wikipedians nor the tiny fraction of presented op-eds are relevant to the wording of those sections that do not deal with this latest verdict, which, per NPOV, needs to be a tiny fraction of the article itself. The French court's verdict is completely and utterly irrelevant, whatever it may be, untill reflected in a significant proportion of reliable source, or until reliable sources issue some form of retraction or clarification. This is now the fifth time you have been told this. Please note that repeated failure to address issues in this manner is considered a breach of the normal editorial process. --Relata refero (disp.) 15:01, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
(ec)And once again, no, we should not be doing nothing of the sort. All of this section's sources, plus the WSJ one just cited, cannot and will not be used in this or any other article. As numerous people have stated, OpEds are not reliable sources. Once again, I will direct you to legitimate reliable sources such as the BBC, which notes that the ruling was that it is legitimate for a media watchdog to investigate the circumstances in which the report in question was filmed and broadcast, in view of the impact which the images criticised had on the entire world". That is FACT. This OPINION of the matter, that the ruling actually means Karsenty's claim of "pure fiction" was substantiated is just that; OPINION. The OpEds produced here may share the OPINION as some editors, but that doesn't bring it to the standards of Wikipedia policy for inclusion in and attribution to in articles. Tarc (talk) 15:09, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

BBC is one source. They choose 1 quote from the verdict and gave their interpretation of the facts. When we discuss the case should we use BBC technique of selective quotes ? Here are quotes from the BBC article::

"The website, Media-Ratings, said the pictures of a father and son being fired on had been staged by a cameraman working for France 2 television. The state broadcaster sued, insisting it had shown the boy being killed" " A French court has ruled in favour of a media watchdog "--Julia1987 (talk) 15:53, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

In any event, one side here seems to be discussing a slightly different point at times. The article clearly does "describe the controversy" around both the Karsenty allegations and other different criticisms of the original France 2 broadcast. And it "presents" the "versions" expressed by those critics. In great detail. I don't think anyone is suggesting it shouldn't do that (at least to a certain extent and in the main body of the article) - what is immediately at issue is the weight to be attached to some of the more extreme criticism in the lead of the article, eg by reducing the broadly accepted fact of his death - however it happened - to being a mere "report". --Nickhh (talk) 15:51, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

No the article does not describe the controversy when it uses France-2 report as facts…--Julia1987 (talk) 15:54, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes, but the court ruled that the media watchdog has the right to say it. That is all. There is nothing in this ruling to suggest that it was a ruling on the truth of the media watchdog's claim itself. Attempting to read one's own interpretation into what a source says is the epitome of a violation of WP:SYNT. Tarc (talk) 15:57, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Trac, what you raised has been discussed and answered many times. Not going to get into it gain and again. What I suggest is that when the article is open for edit again you should refrain from reverting it to your favorite version. You and ChrisO are the one violating WP:SYNT in this case. --Julia1987 (talk) 18:38, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

T-A-R-C. Its only 4 letters. What I do or do not favor as far as an opinion goes is not relevant here. What I do favor is an adherence to policy, which is continuously being violated by reading into the court verdict something that is not there. Tarc (talk) 22:13, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
So what Julia are you suggesting the enormous section titled "Controversy" within the article is about, if it's not about, er, the controversy? And the article as is does NOT endorse the France 2 "version" (which blamed the IDF for shooting him) or "use it as fact" - it does however, yes, reflect the mainstream contention that he is dead in the opening paragraph. It then goes on to discuss the various (different) criticisms, eventually in some detail. --Nickhh (talk) 16:17, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
The controversy is more fundamental than that section (and the lead) currently present. The whole incident is under doubt: Was it a hoax or an actual event ? Is the boy dead ? etc… There are now two different versions to the events in Nezarim Junction: One version is the France-2 version the other is the independent investigation.
The source (only source) to the France-2 version is Abu Rahma. Anything that comes out of that tape can not be presented here as fact but as one side. The other side is the Karsenty/Shpira/Shahaf Version that need to be presented as well. I am not saying Karesenty is correct I am saying that we need to write this article in NPOV manner. I am glad that ChrisO/CJ no longer raise the "fringe conspiracy argument" and that we are finally discussing how the article should look like. I'll admit that there are better wordsmiths than me who can re-write the needed sections.--Julia1987 (talk) 18:35, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
I have lost count of the number of times people have pointed out there are not "two different versions" of what happened - there are actually multiple versions being claimed by various different people, some of which are being given more credence than others in mainstream reporting. You seem incapable of understanding that. Or of understanding the point that this article does not say that the original France 2 report - which asserted that he was killed by IDF fire - is "fact", or necessarily correct. This debate has now become as ghoulish and offensive (since it is about a child who was almost certainly killed) as it always was tedious. --Nickhh (talk) 18:54, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
Can I ask participants to please avoid terms such as "ghoulish" and "you seem incapable"? Let's please just stick to the sources. Also, when the article is unprotected, I'd like to see all parties avoid any kinds of reverts (except of course for blatant vandalism). Instead, I'd like to see everyone concentrate on changing the text, to try and find a consensus version. If one editor adds something unsourced but plausible, and another editor disagrees with it, request a citation. If a reliable source citation is not provided in a reasonable amount of time, the unsourced text can be removed. If someone adds something that is sourced, and another editor disagrees with what was added, don't remove it, improve it. Edit it, tone it down, or perhaps move it to a different section of the article, so that the information is still included, though perhaps not given as much prominence. WP:UNDUE seems to be the core policy here, in that we want to concentrate on identifying "significant" views. But even minority views, if they are represented by multiple sources, are worth including, as long as we are providing things in the proper proportion. --Elonka 19:36, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
May I join all Elkona's requests and add that since we now have new data we need to focus on adding info from current sources. We would like to have this encyclopedia up-to-date. --Julia1987 (talk) 21:12, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
Elonka, consensus here sounds nice in theory, but the reality here is that consensus cannot override policy. A WP:FRINGE theory is a fringe theory, and no amount of calls to the contrary, regardless of the number or status of those who are calling for it, can elevate a fringe theory to a factual one. Tarc (talk) 22:11, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Forcing out non-conformist views

That would be those who do not conform to ChrisO's view of what constitutes NPOV . He says:

"There's certainly nothing wrong with SPAs, but we have here a number of SPAs who are (a) edit warring (b) soapboxing (c) serially violating NPOV and (d) promoting original research. Over on WP:AE, Moreschi has recommended a topic-ban of Julia1987 (talk · contribs) and Tundrabuggy (talk · contribs). I will be recommending a topic-ban of Canadian Monkey (talk · contribs) as well. Now that the page is protected, I'll try to get some mediation underway, but it's unlikely to achieve anything useful unless our resident conspiracy theorists stop ignoring basic NPOV requirements."

First he changes an long-established and contentious edit to reflect his views, and when met with resistance posts warnings only on the pages of those of us who hold a different view. By the 3rd or 4th day of discussion, he starts the search for "uninvolved" admins in 2 different forums in order to ban or block these opposing editors. No such warnings are issued or made to those editors who have been edit-warring from his perspective, including those making personal attacks such as calling other editors 'liars.' ChrisO seems to have made himself sole arbitrator of definitions of SPA, "soapboxing",what comprises 'serially violating NPOV" & "promoting original research," fringe theory, undue weight etc. It appears that the use of the word "reported" preceding "death" can be attacked from multiple wiki-policy angles, At the very least, one might expect particular diffs to illustrate such serious accusations as "serially violating NPOV," but apparently it is sufficient to get a crony who will support him in his attempts to shoehorn his opinion into this highly sensitive article, even at the expense (or with the added benefit?) of having to ban/block other editors. I would think such a way of dealing with disagreements between editors should have some safeguards to prevent administrators from (what I would consider in any other venue) an abuse of power. Tundrabuggy (talk) 02:50, 9 June 2008 (UTC)