Talk:Mozi

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[edit] Link broken

Link to text of Mozi broken as of this writing. Mikedelsol 04:43, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Disputed

Unfortunately User:Gbog, you are wrong in this case because Dí (翟) in the dictionary means "a long tail pheasant" whereas Zhái (翟) is a surname, so I'm changing it back to my original Pinyin spelling if you have a problem with my spelling, look it up HERE!


Answer: It is not by looking in dictionnaries that we will find the prononciation of 翟 in the name 墨翟. Many characters have different and very unused prononciations when they are used names, I heard. I've searched different sources, and only one said 墨翟 should prononce Mo Zhai :

  1. Wenlin (dict.) : Mò Dí (480?-400 B.C.) n. pacifist philosopher, also known as Mozi (Micius)
  2. [1] : "Mo Di 墨翟 died around 470 BC"
  3. Robert Van Gulik, La vie sexuelle dans la Chine ancienne, confirms "Mo Ti"
  4. Marcel Granet, la Pensée chinoise, confirms : "Mo Ti".
  5. and more...

Googling on "Mo Di" Mozi gives many refs, but "Mo Zhai Mozi" gives only one relevant:

Ed. Robert Innis. Bloomington: Indiana UP, 1985. 178-89. Mo Zhai 墨翟. Mozi shiwu juan 墨子十五卷 [Writings of Mozi] Yingyin Wenyuange siku quanshu 景印文淵閣四庫全書. Reprint. Taibei: Shangwu Yinshuguan, 1983. Vol. 848.[2]

Now, do you have more refs giving "Mo Zhai" ? If not, I would guess that the ref above is simply a mistake and that nobody ever said 墨翟 should be prononced "Mo Zhai". gbog 03:24, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

I got the answer to it now: Read Here

N0N4am0r 23:14, August 1, 2005 (UTC)

Hey, I agree from the beginning that 翟 is referenced in dictionnaries as reading "Zhai" for a surname, and as "Di" for the concrete meaning. This must be the case now, but they surely don't talk about the prononciation during Mo Zi's time ! (which was surely very different). My question is why for god sake all reputed sinologist I read all refers to this guy as "Mo Di". I don't know more than them on these topics so I would fully trust them, and use "Mo Di"... If you find somewhere Legge or Wilhelm or Waley talking about Mo Zi as "Mo Zhai" I will instantly change my mind ! gbog 09:04, 2 August 2005 (UTC)

To clarify, isn't 翟 in this case the given name, and not surname? If not, then I don't think that it's pronounced as Zhái when used as a surname is even relevant here. --Menchi 09:41, 2 August 2005 (UTC)

To clarify what you said, a Chinese given name is a surname. N0N4am0r 1:04, August 10, 2005 (UTC)

mmm... that doesn't really clarify what I said. That's more like twisting my words. See Surname#China, Hungary, Japan, Korea, and Vietnam. --Menchi 19:07, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

Err, you don't understand it at ALL! Mozi's LAST NAME (surname) is pronounced a zhái WE aren't talking about his first name by the way so I don't see why you're arguing about his first name and not his last name. You said "isn't 翟 in this case the given name, and not surname?" We were arguing about his surname not his given name. N0N4am0r 11:04, August 13, 2005 (UTC)

Talk of "first name" and "last name" makes things even more confused, as the ordering of names is the variable part. Look, there's the family name or surname, and there's the personal name or given name. A given name can't be a surname, by definition.
With regard to the usage by modern scholars:
  • Mozi
    1. A Companion to the Philosophers, ed. Arrington
    2. Companion Encyclopedia of Asian Philosophy, edd Carr & Mahalingam
    3. A Companion to World Philosophies edd Deutsch & Bontekoe
    4. Eastern Philosophy: Key Readings, Ed. Leaman
    5. Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy
  • Mo-zi
    1. One Hundred Philosophers, King
I found one older book using "Mo-tzu", and none using "Mo Di". --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 20:27, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

Can't really argue with that but mind you we're not exactly looking for his "surname". We're looking for the proper spelling for his surname in PinYin. As a full-Chinese, Dí is less likely to give the reading of 翟 then Zhai will. For instance, this is the dictionary entry for the Pinyin "zhai" "翟【zhái】 a surname." versus 嚁 (this is the closest Chinese character I could get to the real one). N0N4am0r 23:44, September 12, 2005 (UTC)

I have a source that gives 396 B.C. as a more approximate death date, but I have no certainty enough to change it as is. Nagelfar 05:40, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Clean-up

With the large amount of new material added by an anon., the article is a bit of a mess. It's a long chunk of undifferentiated text, mixing up myth and fact. Without, of course, overdoing it, it needs to be split up, and the status of the various claims made clear. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 11:01, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

I understand your concern. Most of the added stuff comes from the Mozi itself or from other Chinese historical writings on Mozi. Not all of it might be reliable, but it is highly interesting. I will add subheadings and sources soon. --Mike

[edit] WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 14:45, 9 November 2007 (UTC)