Talk:Monte Albán

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This article is within the scope of the following WikiProjects:

WikiProject Mesoamerica (Rated B-Class) (Rated Top-importance) This article falls within the scope of WikiProject Mesoamerica, a WikiProject interested in improving the encyclopaedic coverage and content of articles relating to pre-Columbian Mesoamerica, its civilizations, history, accomplishments and other topics. If you would like to help out, you are welcome to drop by the project page and/or leave a query at the project's talk page. Resources and guidelines for editing Mesoamerica-related articles: Guidelines— Outline of suggested guidelines and editing conventions Resources— Selected resources and compendia of Mesoamerican sources and studies Citations— Bibliography and pre-filled citations for Mesoamerican sources Journals— Links to selected journals publishing Mesoamerican research, example citation templates Article listing— Inventory and watchlists of WP:MESO articles and their talk pages (Article Watchlist)—(Talkpage Watchlist) Worklists— Project worklists and activities NB: Assessment ratings and other indicators given below are used by the Project in prioritising and managing its workload. B This article has been rated as B-Class on the Project's quality scale. Top This article has been rated as Top-importance on the Project's importance scale. WikiProject Mesoamerica priority open tasks: (click "show" to expand) WikiProject Mesoamerica Open Tasklist: a shortlist of things you can do to help out. Queries welcomed here. (Project Main • Activities • Catalogue • Guidelines • Strategy• Tools and refs) edit | watch | purge NEWS and ANNOUNCEMENTS: → Mesoamerica, Maya civilization, Olmec, Palenque are WP:MESO collaboration targets of the moment. → Pre-filled citation templates for Mesoamerican sources at Citations. → Recently promoted to GA status: Yuri Knorosov, Nahuatl language, Charles Etienne Brasseur de Bourbourg. PROJECT ACTIVITIES: Meta-tasks and subprojects: • add project banner to articles • document Strategy • assign article ratings per the assessment scheme • add to Project references • collate images and maps • More... Categorisation: • develop full Category scheme • reorganise Cat:Mesoamerica contents • More category tasks... Templates: • {{Mesoamerica site infobox}} (create) • {{Mesoamerica ruler infobox}} (create) • {{Maya civilization}} (improve) • {{WP Mesoamerica}} project banner (populate) • More... ARTICLE TO-DO: Requested articles: • History of Mesoamerica • Chenes (Maya subregion & architectural style) • 260-day Mesoamerican calendar • List of Mesoamerican cultures • Hermann Beyer • Huastec civilization • Valley of Oaxaca • More... Expand from stub: • Calendar round • Chiapas highlands • Chilam Balam • Chol language • Trecena • Veintena • More... Cleanup/attention needed: • Domesticated plants of Mesoamerica • Gender in Mesoamerican cultures • History of Mesoamerica (Paleo-Indian) • Gender in Maya society • Olmec figurine • More... Improvement drive: Start-Class • Mesoamerican calendars • Mesoamerican chronology • Mixtec • Monte Albán • Toltec • Yucatán Peninsula • More... Improvement drive: B-Class • Chichen Itza • La Venta • Maya calendar • Maya civilization • Maya script • Olmec • Quetzalcoatl • More... Prepare for Quality reviews (GA, PR, FAC): • Mesoamerica • Mayan languages • Spanish conquest of Mexico • Palenque • Chunchucmil • More... Architecture WikiProject Architecture Portal This article covers subjects of relevance to Architecture. To participate, visit the WikiProject Architecture for more information. The current monthly improvement drive is Johannes Itten. ??? This article has not yet received a rating on the assessment scale. ??? This article has not yet received an importance rating on the assessment scale. WikiProject World Heritage Sites     (Rated Start-Class) (Rated low-importance) This article is within the scope of WikiProject World Heritage Sites, a group related to the the study of World Heritage Sites. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks. Start This article has been rated as Start-Class on the quality scale. Low This article has been rated as low-importance on the importance scale. Additional information: This article has been checked against the following criteria for B-Class status: Referencing and citation: not checked Coverage and accuracy: not checked Structure: not checked Grammar: not checked Supporting materials: not checked Neutrality: not checked To fill out this checklist, please add the following to the template call: <!-- 1. It is suitably referenced, and all major points are appropriately cited. --> |B-Class-1=yes/no <!-- 2. It reasonably covers the topic, and does not contain major omissions or inaccuracies. --> |B-Class-2=yes/no <!-- 3. It has a defined structure, including a lead section and one or more sections of content. --> |B-Class-3=yes/no <!-- 4. It is free from major grammatical errors. --> |B-Class-4=yes/no <!-- 5. It contains appropriate supporting materials, such as an infobox, images, or diagrams. --> |B-Class-5=yes/no <!-- 6. It is written from a neutral point of view. --> |B-Class-6=yes/no WikiProject Mexico Mexico Portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Mexico, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to Mexico on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion. ??? This article has not yet received a rating on the Project's quality scale. Please rate the article and then leave a short summary here to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses of the article. ??? This article has not yet received a rating on the importance scale.

Contents 1 Claude Winters ism 2 Aerial view 3 Photos 4 Zapotec toponym 5 References for Teotihuacan-Monte Alban interaction

[edit] Claude Winters ism

IT IS POINTLESS TO CONTINUE DENYING THE AFRO-OLMECS WERE BLACK AFRICANS

The Olmecs included two races. A prehistoric African Negro race found in West Africa/Sahara who spoke Manding-Shi and the Mongoloid 'Indian' race found in North America/Alaska.

The Afro-Olmec civilization was founded by Emperor 'Meci' about 5 thousand years ago. African ancient books note the date to about 3113 BC, when Meci sailed from West Africa in eight ships. (See "A History of the African-Olmecs: Black Civilizations of America from Prehistoric Times to the Present Era," published by www.AuthorHouse.com also see "Susu Economics" pub by www.AuthorHouse.com and "A History of Education Book II," pub. by www.Xlibris.com http://community.webtv.net/pabarton

It is rather shameful that some historians and writers have shamelessly tried to deny or hide the fact that the Olmecs were African NEGROES and not 'Negritoes' Pygmies or other Blacks living in Asia.

The Olmec language (UNKNOWN TO MOST OF THESE 'EXPERTS' HAVE BEEN DECIPHERED ALREADY) is identical to the ancient and present Mandinga-Shi language of West Africa. The ancient Olmec alphabet in its formative style is identical to the Manding alphabet. The Olmec cosmogony is identical to West African cosmogony. The Olmec use of leapords skin, religious rites, worship and recognition of the thunder/lightening God and such is identical to West African Shango religion. The Olmecs were also among the purest type of Negro IDENTICAL TO AFRICANS FROM THE GHANA/GUINEA/NIGERIA region of today.

However, Olmec civilization is an extention of the Mandinga-Shi and Mandinga-Kush civilization spread from Sudan to Sierraleone and from Sudan to Melanesia/SE Asia.

see http://community.webtv.net/paulnubiaempire http://community.webtv.net/nubianem

Sez you.

All kidding aside, there are few if any professional archaeologists who would agree with your statements. Moreover, there are a number of inaccuracies in your text. Just as one example, there is nothing known about the Olmec language, and there is great discussion concerning whether the Olmec 'alphabet' is a true alphabet or, instead, complex iconography. Madman 15:27, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Aerial view

I took the aerial photo from my plane as we departed the Oaxaca airport for Mexico City. The flight path of the airport puts you right next to it. Bobak 18:00, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Photos

I moved every photo of the article (including additional ones - gallery) to commons. I kept all the original information. In several cases I had rename the files in order to give more clarity. See Category:Monte Albán on Commons

Thanks. --GengisKanhg (my talk) 20:19, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Zapotec toponym

(NB: portions of the below discussion are copied from User:CJLL Wright's talk pg, for wider reference)

Gidday dan - once again, some great work by you in improving the Monte Albán article. A quick question- would you be able to confirm, or know of any sources for, the statement in that article which claims the site's name in some Zapotecan dialect is/was Danipaguache, and if so whether or not the glossed meaning given is ok? It's not that I really doubt it, but when I had a look at it last time I was unable to track down sources to confirm. I presume also that it's at least a post-conquest attribution, ie the contemporary name(s) are unconfirmed..? --cjllw | TALK 02:31, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

hey Cjllw - i actually don't know any sources that state that - in fact, I don't believe I'ver heard that name before I took a look at the MA page. I would agree with you on it being a colonial period attribution... actually, now that I think about it, perhaps there might be a reference to it in The Cloud People, that Flannery and Marcus edited tome from 1983 or so. I don't have the volume, so I can't check (when I was looking to buy it, it was always over $90). I just checked the other various books I have concerning the Zapotec, which aren't very many, and can't seem to find it. If anything, its probably an ethnographic source. I know very little about Oaxacan ethnography, so I wouldn't even know what the prime places to check would be.

Anwyay, thanks for the compliment concerning my work! - I've been trying to go through the various Start and Stub class Meso articles and add to them, hopefully getting them to bump up a level. Both Monte Alban and Zapotec, at least I think, are important enough topics that they should be worked on. And my plight on the Mesoamerica article continues - I've gotten the chrono section into decent shape, began working on the subsistence section, and am slowly working my way down. I'm not really looking foward the latter sectiosn of the article, as they'll need some major reorganization. By the way, congrads on the admin-ship! Anywho, the fight contines!-- Oaxaca dan 02:59, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

OK. Well, not to worry- I might ask Infrogmation about the etymological source, I think he may have been the one to add it some time ago. Keep up the great work on the Mesoamerica article, thanks to the efforts of you and a few others around here, recently there's been a significant improvement in our coverage- much more to do, of course! Take care, --cjllw | TALK 00:10, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

I took a look in Arthur Miller's Painted tombs of Oaxaca (1995) and on pages 33,34 he has a discussion of the derivation of a zapotec name for Monte Alban. Wilfredo Cruz (1982) argues Danibaan "Sacred Mountain" was the zapotec name, with Monte Alban being a hispanicization of that. Gordon Whittaker (1980) rejects that because his term lacks sufficient time depth, 'baa' according to Whittaker means "tomb or place of rest". Miller admits he doesn't understand Wittaker's objections to Cruz's derivation. I could find nothing in Flannery and Marcus's Cloud People to support the 'Danipaguache reading. Marcus (cited in Miller) found a glyph she thinks may be a "place" glyph for Monte Alban with a cognate for the nahuatl name for the hill on which its located (nahuatl name is ocelotepec - hill of jaguar) and glyph is in Lise stela and glossed by Marcus as "Hill of 1 Jaguar" (article is in Cloud People).Rsheptak 00:38, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Wow- thanks Rsheptak, that's some mighty fine and quick research! With that info we should be able to expand a little more on it in the article. I'll also copy this discussion to the article's talk page, for wider reference and record. Thanks again.--cjllw | TALK 01:22, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't recall what books and websites I had in front of me when I created the starter stub for the article. One may have been "The Complete Visitor's Guide to Mesoamerican Ruins" by Joyce Kelly. For what its worth, Kelly's book says: "An earlier Aztec name was Ocelotepec, Nahuatl for "Hill of the Jaguar". An even earlier Mixtec name was Yucu-cui. A still earlier Zapotec name may have been Dainipaguache or Danipaan, Zapotec for "Sacred Mountain". The book doesn't give a specific source for this. -- Infrogmation 08:46, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] References for Teotihuacan-Monte Alban interaction

I'll add these here if someone wants to permute them into the proper 'cite' form (which I don't know).

• Paddock, John. (1983). The Oaxaca Barrio at Teotihuacan. in Flannery, Kent and Joyce Marcus, eds. The Cloud People. Academic Press. pp. 170-175.
• Marcus, Joyce (1983). Teotihuacan Visitors on Monte Alban Monuments and Murals. in Flannery, Kent and Joyce Marcus, eds. The Cloud People. Academic Press. pp. 175-181. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Rsheptak (talk • contribs) 01:08, 26 January 2007 (UTC).

Hey Rsheptak, thanks of the citations. I had a hunch they might be in that volume. I can throw them in the text as academic citations, but our man Cjll knows the citation templates quite well. Whenever I've tried using them, and the in-line referencing section, I usually end up erasing the entire article. So I'll defer to those who know. Oaxaca dan 02:51, 26 January 2007 (UTC)