Talk:Mihranids

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[edit] Rewrite

I rewrote most of the article. Vachagan III had nothing to do with Mihranids, it was a previous ruling dynasty of Albania. Grandmaster 10:12, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Why did you remove all the Iranica sourced information?Azerbaijani 13:50, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
You replaced all of the Iranica information with that Russian source that you guys always use (which isnt even in English)? Give me a break. What you did was pure vandalism. Iranica is one of the most prominent sources on Iran related subject, you cant remove sourced information from it whenever you like. I'm reinserting the Iranica sourced information.Azerbaijani 13:54, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
You can add new information, but do not replace and rewrite the entire article when its sourced by Iranica.Azerbaijani 14:24, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Your information is not sourced. You have no idea what are you talking about. You added completely irrelevant info. The source that you used also talks about this dynasty, but in the next paragraph:

It is not impossible that, after the disappearance of the monarchy, certain dynasties may have asserted their authority on a regional basis and secured recognition of themselves by the Sasanian government (cf. Markwart, Eranshahr, p. 119). This would have been the position of the Mihrakan family, which claimed to be of Sasanian extraction (for genealogy, see Movses, History 1.17, tr. p. 109; on its doubtful authenticity, cf. N. Akinian, Handes Amsorya, Venice, 1953, p. 68; Dowsett, tr. of Movses, History, p. 107, n. 3).

Mihrakan = Mihranid. As I said before, Vachagan was not Mihranid, make your research before editing topics you are not familiar with. Also, there's a reason why this family was called Mihranid, i.e. because it was founded by Mihran. Why did you remove the quote from Kalankatuatsi? Grandmaster 06:00, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Also note that Iranica also refers to "that Russian source that we always use", i.e. Movses Kalankatuatsi. It is also available in English, but not online. It is number one source on the history of Albania. Grandmaster 06:32, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

So why did you take out and their kingdom was incorporated into Armenia.[1] and the parts about Christianity?Azerbaijani 13:44, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Everyone familiar with history of the region knows that there was no state called Armenia at that time, it ceased to exist in the late 4th century. So how could Albania be part of Armenia, a non-existing state? Your source does not say that either. And your references to Christianity were not related to Mihranids, you described how the previous dynasty supported Christianity. If you have info related to Mihranid dynasty, feel free to add it. Grandmaster 04:49, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
The Mihranids were extinguished through the assassination of Varaz-Trdat II by Nerseh Pilippean in 207/822-23, and the Armenian prince of Sakki to the north of Arran, Sahl i Smbatean (Arabic, Sahl b. Sonba@tá), extended his power over Arran.
Thats from Iranica.Azerbaijani 13:50, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Great, does it mean that there was a state called Armenia at the time? And I have an article by Minorsky about Sahl, he calls him an Albanian prince. Grandmaster 04:45, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
Well, last I checked, there hasnt been a state called Azerbaijan in the Caucasus until 1918, but that hasnt stopped you guys from placing it in articles has it? Armenia was a province though, no one implies it was a state.Azerbaijani 12:58, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
There was a region called Azerbaijan in the Caucasus before 1918, and we proved that. As for Armenia as a region, it did not include Albania/Arran in the 9th century, and the source you refered said nothing like that. Grandmaster 13:10, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
Where? Which state in the Caucasus has been called Azerbaijan before 1918?Azerbaijani 13:13, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
Not state, there was a region called Azerbaijan. Grandmaster 13:14, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
What region? Oh, your talking about those few sources (most of which are contradictory or on included small stretches of land above the Aras, which are really inconsequential). Well, let me ask you the same thing I asked Dacy (a question which he avoided answering, but his refusal to answer pretty much made everything clear), can we say that the territory of the Republic of Azerbaijan is historically Armenian because a few sources from the early 20th and 19th century say that Armenia's borders extended all the way to the Caspian sea? Yes or no please.Azerbaijani 13:19, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
They did extend occasionally, but the geographic notion of Armenia did not include the territory of Azerbaijan republic. This territory was historically part of many states. Grandmaster 13:25, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
Exactly! So why do you not apply the same logic to the name Azerbaijan? Azerbaijan in a few instances (very rare, and many of these accounts are contradictory or included small stretches of land, usually by the Aras river) extended north of the Aras, but the geographic notion of Azerbaijan did not include the territory of the Azerbaijan Republic. The territory of the Azerbaijan Republic was usually part of other states, or part of Albania, or split up into smaller sections, etc... So I dont understand the double standard here. When we talk of Armenia, the few sources that extend its boundaries dont imply that Azerbaijan Republic should be called Armenia or be a part of Armenia, but when it comes to Azerbaijan they do?Azerbaijani 13:32, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
As I said before, Azerbaijan was a geographic notion, bondaries of which were unstable. It extended to the North from time to time, and Iranica makes it clear that after the 13th century the name of Arran drops out of use and the name of Azerbaijan covers both North and South. We've already been thru this many times. Grandmaster 16:52, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Interesting double standard. So Armenians boundaries as a geographic notion never changed, but Azerbaijans did? Iranica also says several times that the territories of the present day Republic of Azerbaijan were either ruled by Armenians or incorporated into Armenia. Good double standard Grandmaster, but it doesnt matter to me, you can cling on to whatever you like, but just remember your logic can always be used with regards to Armenia.Azerbaijani 16:56, 1 June 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Format

I dont think the article should be split up into several short paragraphs at this stage, as the article is too short. Its best for it all to be one paragraph.Azerbaijani 05:56, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Aftermath

I added information about the aftermath of the fall of the dynasty. If you have a minorsky source that says Sahl was Albanian, please post the text here and then also add that he may have been Albanian to the article.Hajji Piruz 15:18, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

The origin of Sahl is not known according to Minorsky, and he could be related to the Albanian kings.
West of Sharvan was situated Qabala, with a mixed population (including even some Khazars) but ruled by a Christian prince. In the west it bordered on Shakki, also with a Christian dynasty. The origins of the princes of Qabala and Shakki are little known, but in view of constant intermarriage we have to assume their manifold links with the princes of the right bank.
The exact origin of Sahl is not explicitly stated. Thomas Artsruni, iii, § 11, calls him ruler of Shak'e, and we must remember that the Hudud al-'Alam, after having spoken of Shakki, refers (§ 36, 32) to Sunbatman, a town at the farther end of Shakki, with a strong fortress '. The name Sunbat-man means 'Sunbat's house' and is likely to refer to the home of Sahl's ancestors.
V. Minorsky. Caucasica IV. Bulletin of the School of Oriental and African Studies, University of London, Vol. 15, No. 3. (1953), pp. 504-529.
--Grandmaster 09:50, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
Wow, nowhere does it say such a thing. Grandmaster, you cannot make POV interpretations of sources.Hajji Piruz 14:42, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
Minorsky says Sahl was Armenian: ''"Sahl son of Smbat, lord of Shak'e, who captured Baban (Babak) was included in the great deportation of Armenian princes carried out by general Bugha..."
Grandmaster, this is unacceptable. Your POV and OR interpretations of sources violates Wikipedia's rules and is hampering what we're supposed to be doing here in Wikipedia.Hajji Piruz 14:48, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
He also says that the deportation included both Albanians and Armenians. Do not remove sourced info. Minorsky says that the origin of Sahl is not known and that he could be related to the kings of Albania. Grandmaster 05:00, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
From another source: Among the prisoners captured by Boga al-Kabir in 854 John Catholicos and T'ovma Arcruni mention three Albanian princes: Atrnerseh, lord of Xachen, Sahl son of Smbat, lord of Shak'e, and Esay Abu Musa, lord of K't'is in Arcax.
C. J. F. Dowsett. A Neglected Passage in the "History of the Caucasian Albanians". Bulletin of the School of Oriental and African Studies, University of London, Vol. 19, No. 3. (1957), pp. 456-468.
Grandmaster 05:17, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
Here is yet another source: The History of Al-Tabari Vol XXXIII translated by C.E Bosworth, State University of New York Press, published 1991, page 76:
"Sahl b. Sunbat (Armenian Smbat), from a local Armenian family of eastern Transcaucasia, lord of Shakki, (Shake) to the north of the upper reachers of the Kur..."
Grandmaster, I dont know where you have been taught the opinions that you hold, but here its the facts that matter. You cannot distort sources.Hajji Piruz 14:53, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Sahl was a prince of Albania, which would make him an Albanian prince, but this does not mean his origin was Albanian. Minorsky says he was Armenian. I moved the Minorsky source by where it says Armenian. I also added a hidden text that says the source you cited does not clearly say Sahl was Albanian.Hajji Piruz 18:04, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Where does Minorsky say that Sahl was Armenian? He says: The exact origin of Sahl is not explicitly stated. No personal interpretations, please. The other source says that he was Albanian, so that's what the article should say. Grandmaster 07:47, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
Then why are you using him as a source to say he was Albanian? Why are you even using him as a source if he says that the origin is unknown, dont use him as a source then in the article to support your POV, because you making an interpretation too.Hajji Piruz 14:16, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
I'm not making interpretation, our article also says that his origin is unknown, he could be either Albanian or Armenian. Grandmaster 04:38, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
You used Minorsky as a source for the Albanian part, so if Minorsky says its unknown, why would you do that?Hajji Piruz 05:59, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
Fixed per Minorsky. Grandmaster 06:14, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

I created an article for Sahl, so that we dont clutter up this article with info about his origin. Also, Minorsky does say that his origin is not clearly stated, but he also says that by the evidence we should assume he was Armenian.Hajji Piruz 19:20, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Where does he say that? --Grandmaster 08:50, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
Just Wikilinking. I also moved the part of the the Kurdish tribal federation to the top, I dont know if it should be removed or not.Hajji Piruz 16:29, 7 August 2007 (UTC)