Talk:Mediterranean diet

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This article is within the scope of the following WikiProjects:

Contents

[edit] Inspiration

The article currently opens:

The Mediterranean diet is a modern nutritional model inspired by the traditional dietary patterns of some of the countries of the Mediterranean basin, particularly Southern Italy and Greece, Cyprus, Portugal, Turkey and Spain.

If I'm not mistaken, it was inspired principally by the diets of Southern Italy and Greece (Crete in particular). Dr. Ancel Keys' Seven Country Study included Yugoslavia, Italy, Greece, Finland, the Netherlands, United States, and Japan, and none of the other countries mentioned. Dr. Paul Dudley White worked in Calabria and Crete. Of course, since the original work, it has been broadened, but the original "inspiration" was Southern Italy and Greece. Comments? --Macrakis 15:02, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

--Goat Cheese-Malta-- Goat cheese is not only well and used in Malta but in various Mediterranean countries, so there is no need to specifically name Malta.

How about sheep's cheese? Maltese Gbejniet ae supposed to use sheep's cheese, actually. And Yogurt? is that a good source of calcium worth mentioning?

--Inkiwna 21:32, 22 August 2007 (UTC) --Wine--

I've edited the portion in the beginning that listed common foods of the Mediterranean diet. It used to say that certain staple foods are consumed in large amounts but then went on to say that wine is only consumed in a moderate amount. The fact is, wine, like any alcohol, is healthiest in a moderate amount, but that in no way means that the Mediterranean diet reflects that health concern. So now wine is listed along with the other Mediterranean staple foods with no mention of its measured consumption. The point of an encyclopedia is to speak of facts; not to distort facts in order to satisfy personal health concerns.

-- Strawberry Pudding Wings

--Can be added an external link to a Food chart?

I've tried to add the mediterranean diet food chart I've found on this website: http://www.mediterraneanbook.com/food-chart/ any problems? Thank you 82.49.46.114 15:52, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

This is just a random blog, which under our policy on external links, is not appropriate. --Macrakis 16:57, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

-- Ok...thank you. But what if I can't find a detailed Mediterranean food chart? This is the only I've found with detailed info and specific to the Med diet...the other website on the net give or recipes or the diet pyramid. What to do? 82.49.46.114 17:27, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

A reputable non-profit, like Oldways, would be a good source, e.g. http://www.oldwayspt.org/med_pyramid.html . --Macrakis 18:18, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

-- Ok...they are a great source but what I mean is that their food description is too short and not detailed. I think people have a lot of misconceptions on what are the main foods of this diet...they think only the Med diet is Olive Oil and pasta...but most of them don't know exactly what are the other foods and nutritional facts about them...I've had a look on other online food chart (try to do a search google for online food chart here ) but all are too generalist and owned by commercial websites...trust me the food chart above is the only non-profit I've found and the Mediterranean diet... 82.53.40.220 06:26, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Try a more focussed search. The words "food" and "chart" are very broad, and the word "online" is unnecessary. --Macrakis 15:32, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

-- Ok 82.49.162.166 08:06, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Added Images

I removed the Photo request template, as I added a couple of Images. --Inkiwna 22:44, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Definition

Since the most common understanding of the Mediterranean Diet comes from the Mediterreanean Food Pyramid published by Walter Willett's group in 1995, I put this definition at the very top of the article. Does that sound reasonable? Since he states clearly that the pyramid is based on food patterns typical of Crete, much of the rest of Greece, and southern Italy in the early 1960s, I cut out the reference to Spain at the top of the article. As evidence that "everyone" uses Willett's definition, I am thinking about citing

MARIAN BURROS . Eating Well. New York Times. 2008-04-07. URL:http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=990CEFD81438F93AA15750C0A963958260&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all. Accessed: 2008-04-07. (Archived by WebCite® at http://www.webcitation.org/5WuCqjqyn)

The second paragraph now seems contradictory and confusing, and needs work, too. --SV Resolution(Talk) 16:15, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

I decided to put in the NYTIMES reference to show popular acceptance. If anyone knows of a better source or sources to back up the statement that WIllett's version is the most-accepted version of the Mediterranean diet, please fix it.

And I think the second paragraph is now OK. --SV Resolution(Talk) 17:14, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion of whether the "Mediterranean diet" is typical of the Mediterranean

User:Foudel and an anon (perhaps Foudel?) have repeatedly removed the paragraph explaining that the diet called the "Mediterreanean diet" is in fact not typical of most of the Mediterranean basin. This paragraph gives specifics of the ways in which it is not typical. Foudel counter-argues in edit summaries: "The northern Italian diet is not part of the Mediterranean diet. Its climate is colder and many foods that commonly grow throughout the Mediterranean basin don't grow in this type of weather". We agree that the northern Italian diet is "not part of the Mediterranean diet", just as "boeuf en daube" (a typical French Mediterranean dish) and cooking butter (typical of North Africa including Morocco, which of course is mostly on the Atlantic, not the Mediterranean anyway) are not "part of the Mediterranean diet". They are, however, part of the diet of the Mediterranean basin since after all these regions are part of the Mediterranean basin. The point of this paragraph is simply to clarify that the "Mediterranean diet" is not the same thing as "the diet of people living around the Mediterranean". --Macrakis (talk) 21:19, 12 April 2008 (UTC)


The paragraph I removed states that the "Mediterranean diet" is not typical of most of the Mediterranean basin. This is incorrect.

In fact the Mediterranean diet is based directly on the similarities between the diets of peoples from all over the Mediterranean region. Here's the correct definition from the American Heart Association (which has been linked to on the article page for several years):

There's no one "Mediterranean" diet. At least 16 countries border the Mediterranean Sea. Diets vary between these countries and also between regions within a country. Many differences in culture, ethnic background, religion, economy and agricultural production result in different diets. But the common Mediterranean dietary pattern has these characteristics:

  • high consumption of fruits, vegetables, bread and other cereals, potatoes, beans, nuts and seeds
  • olive oil is an important monounsaturated fat source
  • dairy products, fish and poultry are consumed in low to moderate amounts, and little red meat is eaten
  • eggs are consumed zero to four times a week
  • wine is consumed in low to moderate amounts

http://www.americanheart.org/presenter.jhtml?identifier=4644

The paragraph I removed also inaccurately puts forth the idea that North African diets don't share this same dietary pattern. Actually, apart from the difference in wine consumption due to religious reasons, most of North Africa (including Morocco and Tunisia) shares this same Mediterranean dietary pattern -- including olive oil as a staple fat.

Indeed, Morocco recently joined a number of other countries that border the Mediterranean Sea in an initiative to get the "Mediterranean diet" added to the U.N World Heritage List: http://www.winenews.it/index.php?c=detail&dc=96&id=12340

The paragraph also inaccurately states: "In inland areas before refrigeration, fish was largely unknown, even in Greece and Southern Italy." Actually, Mediterranean fishermen have been preserving their fish for thousands of years, mainly by salting but also by preserving in brine or in oil, or through smoking or air-drying. This fish was not only brought inland, but was exported all over the Mediterranean region: http://www.cliffordawright.com/caw/food/entries/display.php/id/79

Also, fresh fish from rivers and lakes have always been available inland. Foudel (talk) 01:37, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

You are right about salted fish. Thanks for the correction.

On the other hand, you seem to ignore the fact that animal fats have been important parts of the diet in many parts of the Mediterranean basin. I love olive oil -- and am happy about its health benefits --, and it is certainly the main traditional dietary fat in Greece, southern Italy, and southern Spain, however it is simply not correct that it is the predominant traditional cooking fat around the Mediterranean basin. In particular, much of central Italy and Spain use lard as the traditional cooking fat, much of northern Italy including Emilia-Romagna (which you seem to consider as not Mediterranean for some reason) uses butter, much of North Africa uses rendered sheep fat and cooking butter, and so on.

It is also important to clarify that these eating patterns have changed radically in the past 50 years, as people have gotten richer. When I was a child, in Crete, working people indeed ate very little meat simply because they could not afford it. Now, they can afford meat, and they can and do eat it often and sure enough have more of the diseases of the rich.

Please see the references in Cuisine of the Mediterranean for more discussion about the disconnect between the "Mediterranean diet" (a dietary recommendation) and the actual diet of Mediterraneans (a fact on the ground).

As for your controversial deletions of long-standing content, please stop that. Let's resolve this on the talk page first following WP procedures. --Macrakis (talk) 13:35, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Firstly, thanks for removing the fish section of that paragraph.

But there are still factual inaccuracies with that paragraph. Saying that the Mediterranean eating pattern is not typical of most of the Mediterranean basin is simply incorrect. As the American Heart Association points out, the diets of the Mediterranean are very varied -- but there is a common dietary pattern that is seen in most cultures who live in the Mediterranean basin. http://www.americanheart.org/presenter.jhtml?identifier=4644S

Even Oldways, the respected non-profit who helped develop the Mediterranean Diet Pyramid points this out:

"This pyramid, representing a healthy, traditional Mediterranean diet, is based on the dietary traditions of Crete, much of the rest of Greece and southern Italy circa 1960, structured in light of current nutrition research ...Variations of this diet have traditionally existed in other parts of Italy, parts of Spain and Portugal, southern France, parts of North Africa (especially Morocco and Tunisia), parts of Turkey, other parts of the Balkan region, as well as parts of the Middle East (especially Lebanon and Syria). The diet is closely tied traditionally to areas of olive oil cultivation in the Mediterranean region." http://www.womenfitness.net/programs/nutrition/foodguidepyramid.htm

The other big inaccuracy is that the paragraph discounts the fact that olive oil is a traditional staple fat in North African countries and the Levant. I'm not disputing that sheep's tail fat and samna aren't used in these areas, but olive oil is at least equally important. Whereas the paragraph just says that sheep's tail fat and Samna are the staple fats.

So, if that paragraph is to be factually accurate, this is how it should read:

This diet is not typical of *all* of the Mediterranean basin. In central Italy, for instance, lard and butter are commonly used in cooking, and olive oil is reserved for dressing salads and cooked vegetables. In North Africa, wine was traditionally not consumed by Muslims. In both North Africa and the Levant, *along with olive oil,* sheep's tail fat and rendered butter (Samna) are traditional staple fats. Foudel (talk) 16:44, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

OK, I think that is a good result. Thanks for working with me on it. By the way, though the AHA and Oldways are excellent sources for the "Mediterranean diet" (the modern nutritional recommendation) since after all they pretty much invented it, I don't think they're very good sources for the Mediterranean diet in the sense of "what Mediterranean peoples eat". They are, after all, advocacy groups who are using the appeal of tradition to promote this approach. Even they (in your quote above) mention that this diet is (or was) typical of "parts of" various countries. Interesting that Oldways itself describes its participants as "influential scientists, health professionals, chefs and media" -- they don't mention food scholars/historians/anthropoloogists at all.... --Macrakis (talk) 18:08, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "Mediterranean diet" -- disambiguation

I think there are two uses of "Mediterranean Diet" being discussed here

  • The definition developed by C. Walter Willett in his papers and books, and adopted by Oldways. I think this might be the meaning most understood by people who live outside the mediterranean basin. As Willett said, this diet is modelled on "food patterns typical of Crete, much of the rest of Greece, and southern Italy in the early 1960s"
  • A description of commonalities and differences among current and historical food patterns in all parts of the Mediterranean Basin.

Is a disambiguation page needed? --SV Resolution(Talk) 13:29, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

I did some work toward improving disambiguation, at the top of this article and Mediterranean Cuisine. Does this help, or do we need a real disambiguation page? --71.175.49.61 --SV Resolution(Talk) 17:51, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Citations Needed

There are several unsupported statements in this article. Are they original thought by the contributor -- if so, they should be removed. Or are these statements supported by Verifiable Sources -- if so, they should be cited. Does anyone have good citations for any of these statements, or can you propose that any of them be removed from the article?

  1. "The diet is often cited as beneficial for being low in saturated fat and high in monounsaturated fat and dietary fiber."
    • What constitutes "low in saturated fat"?
    • What is "high in monounsaturaged fat"?
    • What is "high in fiber"?
    • Who asserts that these things are beneficial?
    • Any support for the statement that the diet is "often cited" for the above?
  2. "Michael Pollan suggests..."
    • Page Number should be cited
    • Michael Pollan is not a primary source -- he's more like a blogger, combining information he has read from a variety of sources with his own personal opinions and preferences. Is this assertion supported by someone closer to the research?
  3. "Dietary factors may be only part of the reason for the health benefits enjoyed by these cultures"
    • Are there health benefits?
    • citation for Genetics as proposed or tested reason for health benefits
    • citation for environment as proposed or tested reason for health benefits
    • Does Willett's article support "heavy physical labor" as reason for health benefits
  4. "Although green vegetables, a good source of calcium and iron, as well as goat cheese, a good source of calcium, are common in the Mediterranean diet.."
    • citation: green vegetables are common in mediterranean diet (as defined above)
    • citation: green vegetables are a good source of calcium and iron
    • citation: goat cheese is common in med. diet
    • citation: goat cheese is a good source of calcium
  5. "...concerns remain whether the diet provides adequate amounts of all nutrients, particularly calcium and iron"
    • citation: who is concerned about adequate nutrients?
    • citation: concern about calcium
    • citation: concern about iron