Talk:Maya calendrical divination

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[edit] Intro to Mayan Astrology

I didn't want to get too detailed here - the refs and links lead to more info. If desired, this section could be expanded to include details of how sortilege is carried out, and also precise interpretations of what the various naguals mean. BobMak 17:11, 23 August 2007 (UTC) BobMak

This article needs heavy editing for style - it is currently written in a quite unencyclopedic style which must be changed. Also the title is not fitting the topic. This article doesn't deal with "Mayan" Astrology but with specific calendric-religious concepts of the K'iche' Maya of one particular town described from one particular source. It is a fallacy to claim that the practices that Barbara Tedlock has observed among the K'iche' are valid for the larger group of Mayas or even for other groups of K'iche. As it is now the article claims to be something that it is not: an overview of Mayan Astrological beliefs.·Maunus· ·ƛ· 20:57, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Agree on all points, Maunus. The style might well suit a chapter in a book, but pls refer to WP:MOS and related pages for guidelines on the writing style to be preferred for writing wikipedia articles.

At the very least need to make clear that it is contemporary, not pre-Columbian, interpretations and divinations being described. I wonder, even, whether "astrology" is a suitable description, as these interpretations and practices have v. little to do with astrology in a literal sense (ie, they do not invoke some connection or influence arising from the configuration of celestial bodies in the night sky, and the Maya calendar signs & concepts do not stand for astrological/astronomical cycles). It's a bit like calling runecasting "astrology". I realise that the Tedlocks and others can casually refer to these practices as 'astrological' ones, but it's not a particularly apt or accurate label. It would be more accurate to describe as a form of bibliomancy, but that's probably too little-used and obscure. If we were to sustain and further develop this article (and not, for example, merge it into others such as K'iche' people), then I think it would be better to give it a title like Maya divinatory practices, or something similar. Open to any suggestions.--cjllw ʘ TALK 07:18, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Actually the standard nomenclature for this sort of religious practice is (Caldendrical) divination - it is also the word use by Barbara Tedlock.·Maunus· ·ƛ· 08:29, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Most of the info doesn't come from Tedlock but from my personal interviews with Mayan priests in Guatemala. These are K'ekchis rather than K'iches; however due to loss of their own cultural traditions most K'ekchi priests are now being trained by K'iche priests, who are carrying out sort of an "evangelization" of their cultural traditions in the K'ekchi area, and in other areas where the Mayan groups are losing their own traditions. The word "astrology" is indeed a misnomer but it is the word that is most commonly used and understood, both by Mayan priests and also by the public. For example, in the K'ekchi language the twenty naguals are known as "Pohol Chaimal", moon and stars. When Mayan priests are speaking Spanish they refer to the Chol Qij as their "astrologia". I tried to briefly summarize the main ideas underlying current Mayan beliefs and practices for a casual reader. Ancient practice is conjectural; and to go into the subject any deeper would immediately introduce a great many complexities. Since some of these (e.g. the correspondence between the Gregorian and Mayan calendars) are dealt with in the Mayan Calendar and Mesoamerican Long Count sections, there didn't seem to be much point in introducing them again here. Please leave the link to my software in this time; or, if you want to delete it, please download it and examine it first so that you see what it is you are deleting. Some of your objections are answered in the text of that software. BobMak 18:23, 26 September 2007 (UTC)