Talk:Maya Hero Twins

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Contents 1 Maya Hero Twins/Xbalanque/Hunahpu/Popol Vuh 2 No images??? What's up with that?? 3 Removing the Twin tale summary 4 Discussion of Names

[edit] Maya Hero Twins/Xbalanque/Hunahpu/Popol Vuh

The existing three articles show considerable overlap and should, to my mind, be restructured: (1) "Popol Vuh (Manuscript)", about its history, Ximénez, significance for Guatemala and for the Mayas, etc.; (2) "Popol Vuh (Mythology)", with an overview (rather than a lengthy retelling, as it is now) of the various mythological episodes, including creation myths; and (3)"Maya Hero Twins", focussing on the characteristics of the Twins and their representation in Classic Maya art. Within this second article, Xbalanque, Hunahpu, and Hun-Hunahpu can be discussed jointly as well as separately. Their individual articles, as they exist now, should be merged into it. 'Xbalanque', 'Hunahpu', and Hun-Hunahpu can then become redirects.86.87.62.150 17:06, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

That sounds like a reasonable approach, 86.87.62.150. However I would suggest that we retain Popol Vuh as the title for the article describing the manuscript, its history and so on, otherwise we would need to disambiguate a great number of present and future links to that page. The Popol Vuh (mythology) page could contain a more expanded treatment of the events within (summarised in the main Popol Vuh article), also any analyses of connections and significance of the story.

It probably doesn't make sense to have separate articles on Xbalanque and Hunahpu, both could be merged into this Maya Hero Twins article. However I think Hun-Hunahpu should remain a separate article, as not one of the twins per se and one with some separate connotations and representations. We could probably lose the hyphen in his name, tho'.--cjllw | TALK 00:37, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree that Xbalanque and Hunahpu should be merged into this article. I also agree that it would be really cool if the Popol Vuh page became a page describing the manuscript's history etc. and there was a seperate page that covered the mythology.

As an aside, there seem to be a few pages (Xibalba, Xquic, Xmucane) that mostly re-hash the narration from Popol Vuh relevant to that character/the topic. May be we could relegate most of this detailed narrative to these(?) because there is a lot of overlap where this story(re)telling is concerned. Haikon 13:00, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

No one protested, so I went ahead and merged the pages. I'm not very familiar with the topic, so I basically copied and pasted. It's mostly right above "Early Life"

• There was very little in Hun-Hunahpu that was not already in this article
• The material I moved into the calendar section struck me as awkwardly written, but I didn't try to iron it out much.
• This was quite possibly poorly excecuted, a bad decision, or both. If so, please point it out to me, and I'll be happy to fix it.
• I'm going to wait a while before I run around fixing all the redirects

-Haikon 02:11, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Haikon, for completing that merge, its been way overdue!

• Xibalba, Xquic, Xmucane could be added to Popol Vuh, but that would make Popol Vuh too large.
• Popol Vuh Manuscript and Mythology could be seperated - if we make mythology seperate, then these 3 characters would end up there, and since theres so much overlap, it would end up considerably shorter.
• Everything on Maya Hero Twins needs to be cut down, since we don't need such a lengthy narrative.

Thats about it, cheers! xC | ☎ 19:17, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes thanks Haikon for completing that action. I have however reversed the redirect of Hun Hunahpu to here- per my earlier comments this figure is not one of the twins and also appears in some other contexts. Likewise, while others such as Xibalba, Xquic etc can be cross-referenced here and at Popol Vuh, I don't think they'd be suitable for merging into either of these, since they are mentioned in contexts beyond the K'iche' mythology. I would still be in favour of some later breaking out of the Popol Vuh article as previously described between the mythological content and the MS, once anyone feels inclined to do so.--cjllw | TALK 02:09, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Not a problem, we can take it step by step then. I believe everyone here agrees that Popol Vuh manuscript and mythology should be seperated? If that is the case, then I'll get right to it. If there are no objections, I'll seperate the article within 48 hours. First lets get that done, then we'll get to the rest one by one.xC | ☎ 05:12, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] No images??? What's up with that??

As of 20 March 2007, there are no images in this article, and as long-time editors know, I'm a big image fan. Are contemporaneous images (e.g. from the Classic Era) that hard to find?? Is there somewhere I could look? Any insight out there?? Madman 03:36, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Heh - a timely reminder, friend Madman, from the master of Mesoamerican images around here ;-) It probably should not be that hard to find illustrations about the place, as there are frequent representations of these - heck, they may already adorn another article someplace, haven't checked. If not, perhaps you could be imposed upon to rustle up one of your excellent drawings from an original - I think there are some fine specimens in Justin Kerr's Mayavase collection, for eg. Alternatively, maybe there are PD images and illustrations online out there from folks like Maudslay or Beyer- will have to check their collections.--cjllw | TALK 05:04, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

I've checked Flickr (nothing there at all) well as Google images (which has the aforementioned Kerr photos). Maybe a line drawing is the only possibility at this time. I'll keep looking. Thanks, Madman 12:27, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Removing the Twin tale summary

I intend to remove the Twin tale part. There are many editions of the Popol Vuh accessible to everybody, and there is no need of a detailed retelling of the story. For the same reason, the Xquic article should be removed. It contains no information beyond the tale itself. 77.162.130.139 23:24, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

I really have no problem with removal of the story as long as:

1. There is some sort of summary remaining -- all articles about literary works summarize those works. I would agree that the present, um, summary is rather lengthy.
2. There is an External link to the tale, which should be easy enough if "there are many editions of the Popol Vuh accessible to everybody".

Thanks, Madman 00:21, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion of Names

We should decide whether names of Popol Wuj characters should be rendered in modern K'iche' ALMG orthography or in the classical orthography used in the actual manuscript as it is now. I also don't think the current version of the etymologies are the most agreed upon. It seems each of my versions of the Popol Wuj proposes different translations of the names (I have 4 different versions) yet none of them are identical to the translations given in the article. Such claims need to be sourced, and well sourced too. I would advocate using the classical names but putting modern K'iche' in brackets the first time like this: Ixbalanque (K'iche' Xbalankej) & Hunahpu (K'iche' Junajpu). then subsequent times can just use the classical version.·Maunus· ·ƛ· 15:38, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

I support this. Since the Popul Vuh is not written in modern K'iche', it makes sense to use the classical version of names. Thanks for helping sort this out, Maunus, Madman (talk) 02:46, 11 January 2008 (UTC)