Talk:Mary Coughlan (politician)

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[edit] Allegations of imbalance

discussion moved from User_talk:BrownHairedGirl#Mary_Coughlan_.282.29. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 22:00, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Hi there,

Thanks for your comments.

There are three grounds on which I have an issue with the "Gay Rights" section that has been recently added to Mary Coughlan's profile on Wikipedia. Firstly, the piece is out of context in what is after all a reasonably short factual entry on Mary Coughlan's 21 year political career. To the reader perhaps researching her for the first time, it would appear that gay rights is the only issue on which she has expressed an opinion or the only issue on which she may have has casued a controversy. This is not the case, and it is questionable whether the issue that has been highlighted would get much of a mention in any detailed work covering her career.

Secondly, on its face and from the references cited it would appear that the contributor, rather than being an advocate for gay rights, is perhaps "on a mission", as the entry itself does not make a full appreciation of Mary Coughlan's work in this area. There is no reference, for example, to her work on modernising the Irish government's policy on (the very sensitive constitutional question of) the "family" during her tenure as Minister for Social and Family Affairs, which has informed the current steps being taken to introduce civil partnership to facilitate same-sex copules. This same contribution was acknowledged only very recently by the respected RTE broadcaster and journalist, Olivia O'Leary, in a recent RTE Radio 1 "Drivetime" poltical column: http://www.rte.ie/podcasts/2008/pc/pod-v-010408-5m21s-drivetime.mp3 In general, and from an informed point of view, the piece appears as purposely political.

Finally, the contributor is correct to say that the Social Welfare (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2004 amended the Social Welfare (Consolidation) Act 1993 to provide that a person cannot be a qualified adult for the purpose of the relevant scheme unless the person is a spouse, whith spouse being re-defined as:

- each person of a married couple living together, or
- a man and a woman who are not married to each other but are cohabiting as husband and wife.

However, I would argue that this amendment was in line with Government policy accross the board at the time, which is only now being considered and reviewed following years of much behind the scenes work and building of a social consensus on the issue. This contributor's type of anaylsis and selective references, and indeed, his or her views on Mary Coughlan's contribution thereto is, I believe much better suited to a seperate page on the development of gay rights issues in Ireland, rather than being the focus of debate on Mary Coughlan's profile page at it currently stands. I would respectfully make te suggestion that this content is moved to such a page and the contributor encouraged to give a less bias and more balanced view. In time, should Mary Coughlan's page develop to include more detailed analysis of her policy positions, successes and failures, then the relevant link, with some fair balance could, quite rightly, be made.

Thank you for taking the time to consider my response and I hope you will review your most recent edit in this light.

Regards,

Logicalview. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Logicalview (talk • contribs) 21:53, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply. I'm afraid that this reply will have to be brief, but I hope it explains why the material was reinstated:
  1. You're right, it's generally a short article. But that's an argument for expanding it with more details of Coughlan's career, not for removing the details which have been added. The gay rights issue is a significant and controversial area of public policy in Ireland, and Coughlan's role in that is a part of her career which should be recorded. Of course it's not the only thing she has done in her career, and the other areas should be expanded ... but one short para on gay rights in not excessive. If you have can suggest references which would allow the expansion of the rest of the article, please post them here and hopefully someone will get to work!
  2. Please please do assume good faith when considering the contributions of other editors. Assuming, as you have done, that another editor is "on a mission" is not the way things are done on wikipedia, and is regarded as very poor etiquette.
  3. Your views of Coughlan's role on gay rights as being in keeping with govt policy at the time are interesting. Personally, I'm a bit surprised by what you say: of course her actions were in line with govt policy (if not, she would probably have been fired from her ministerial job), but there seems to be no dispute that Coughlan as minister did those things, and it does not appear that she resigned in disgust, which is an option open to any minister who dislikes the policy they are required to implement (they aren't robots!). However, your views and mine are no more suitable for incorporation in the encyclopedia than of any other wikipedia editor: they are an unsubstantiated opinion, and wikipedia does use original research or synthesis. If you have references in reliable sources to allow the article to discuss the background to that legislation, and Coughlan's role in it all, then should of course be added ... but the lack of that detail is no argument for deleting from this article this concise mention of Coughlan's role in what remains a high-profile area of public policy. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 22:27, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
When I added the info it was with a mind to expand the article. I came to the idea when I noticed how poor the articles for Irish politicians are in general. I am acutely aware of the importance of pieces being NPOV and well sourced. In fact, my addition to the article is the only info on the page that has sources. The only agendas I had in editing the piece were to begin expansion of the page (I have also been working on Mary Hanafin's page as I am most familiar with Fianna Fáil), starting with notable events, and to add reliable sources. I will try to use the podcast that Logicalview has mentioned to give more depth to the article. Cheers, --Conor (talk) 02:18, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Updates - May 2008

I've recently updated most sections of the page, with the result that some sections are reasonably complete and others, such as her Cabinet career, have at least some general info. where before they had little (or none). Dneale52 (talk) 03:23, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Good work! And particularly good that you have referenced everything so thoroughly. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 13:03, 14 May 2008 (UTC)