Talk:Malay language

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[edit] "Kereta" issue

The Malay word for "car" is "kereta". potatoSince I am Russian, I couldn't have avoid noticing the odd similarity. In Russian, a "kAreta" (sounds similar) means carriage. I have no idea how a Russian word could have been adopted in Malaysia but, still, the similarity stuns me. Any ideas? 218.208.238.245 13:35, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure either, but the word kereta have been used before the europeans set foot on Malay land. It might be from sanskrit.141.213.240.242 08:04, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Nah, that word comes from the Dutch language. Its written in the Malaysian History Form 2 textbooks if you want proof.

Actually, it seems more likely to come from Portuguese carreta "carriage", "cart", given the large amount of Portuguese loanwords in Malay and the fact that it is a quite common word in Portuguese (it would be very easy to be picked up by Malays dealing with portuguese merchants, for instance). Of course, the common origin of Portuguese carreta and Russian kAreta, mentioned above, is Italian carreta, although it doesn't matter much here. Conclusion: the Malay word is from Portuguese, for sure.201.21.200.15 02:19, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Early discussion

The Indonesian universitas is actually Latin and not Dutch. In the fifties all loanwords from Dutch which end with "-iteit" were changed to "-itas" in Indonesian c.f. in Latin. Previously it was "-iteit", then "-itet".

Meursault2004 16:35, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC)

"bercekap" as ub speak is spelled wrong. Cekap means efficient, cakap means speak/talk. I changed it. : 219.95.162.32 09:30, 22 Nov 2003 (UTC)

[edit] Taman haiwan?

I don't know if this makes it ungrammatical Malay-wise, but no one in Malaysia actually says "taman haiwan" anymore - they just refer to it as "zoo".

[edit] Number of speakers

According to Languages Spoken, Malay is spoken by 160 million people worldwide, an order of magnitude greater than what the article says. Which figure should be used on Wikipedia to represent the number of speakers - 7-18 million or 160 million? ~Alon. 09:36, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)

If that articles says 160 million, it most likely lump together speakers of the related languages Malay language (7–18 million total) and Indonesian language (17–30 million native, 140 million total). See the language genetic classification, "Local Malay" is the root for both. IANotALinguist, IAAEngineer. ;-) -- sabre23t 06:59, 7 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Malay is a name of a race in Malaysia. Refer to the population of Malay people in Malaysian ia about 51% of about/more 25 millions. They are the origin of the country. The language been use is Malay language (abbreviation of Bahasa Malaysia.) Malay / Bahasa Malaysia is totally different than Bahasa Indonesia in sound & meanings for example :

"Selamat Petang" - Malay words for Good evening.
"Selamat Sore" - Bahasa Indonesia for Good evening.

Not every malays can speak Bahasa Indonesia fluently and vice versa eventhough they look alike.


I definitely think you are exaggerating the difference between Malay and Indonesian. The difference between, lets say for argument sake, the English spoken in Scotland and the English spoken in Australia is not that much smaller than the difference between Malay and Indonesian. It is as I have written on this talk page in the past, mostly to do with Politics that they are classified by the authorities as separate languages. It seems to me also that the number of Malay speakers given in the article is much much too low. When I consider that nearly the entire population of Malaysia speaks Malay, 15% of Singaporeans, almost all of Brunei, many areas of Indonesia..... it is hard to imagine that the 20-30 million figure is correct. Even if you define "Bahasa Melayu" very strictly as being the language as it is spoken in Kuala Lumpur, that number seems very low. If you want to be more liberal and include speakers of Malay who while sounding a little different are still mutually intelligible with the BM spoken in Kuala Lumpur, then I would think the number expands well past 50 million people. I intend to do more research on this to get better numbers. Ryan Albrey (talk) 16:15, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Bahasa Malaysia"

I just wanted to note that I edited the reference to "Bahasa Malaysia" as the official language of Malaysia. That designation hasn't been used for some years now, and its official name has reverted to "Bahasa Melayu." If anyone has evidence to the contrary, please let us know.

Michael

[edit] What alphabet is used?

Is it Jawi or Latin? Both? If so, which is used when? I'm still confused. --Bash 7 July 2005 19:31 (UTC)

During precolony and early colony era, Jawi is a dominant script for Malay. Due to the colonization (initiated by Portugal) roman alphabet being introduced. However Jawi's still used today only for heritage and islamic studies. most of younger generation still can read Jawi although they prefer to write in roman. Similar thing happens to almost all malayan languages (malayo-polynesians) such as javanese, sundanese and tagalogs (obviously). Zaidpjd 0.45 October 20, 2005 (UTC)
in brunei, Malay is written in both latin and jawi. I think the government here tries to preserve jawi by making it a law for establishment (institution, company, road signs but hot highway signs) to diplay their name in jawi in addition to any languages ie. either Latinised Malay, English or Chinese. Keep88 9 June 2007 08:24 (UTC+8)

Previously, the Malay, have no writing skill. Jawi is introduce to Malay during the time of Malacca straits trading between the middle east and west for the spice and the location as the heart of south east asia. During the time the middle east people has contribute the islam religion & jawi writing. Then, due to the colonization (initiated by Portugal) roman alphabet being introduced and proper education by the british and nothing by the japanese.

This is simply untrue. The Malays were using a script related to those used by some of the languages of South India prior to the advent of Islam. Prior to Jawi, Javanese used an Indic script, and presumably other Malaysian/Indonesian tribes used a similar writing system. Those areas of the Philippines not converted to Islam by the time of the arrival of the Spanish were using scripts closely related to Javanese before the transition to Latin took hold.

[edit] malay language or malaysian language?

I think there's some confusion here. This article is actually mainly about malaysian language not malay language. The reason is that the malay is regulated by mabbim (majlis bahasa brunei, indonesia dan malaysia, the council of brunei, indonesian and malaysian languages). And malaysian language is regulated by Dewan Bahasa dan Pustaka Malaysia. It's true that malay language is widely spoken at Malaysia and Brunei and because of this, people usually think that malaysian language is the malay language. I think the best way to express this is that malaysian language is part of malay language. Same goes to Indonesian and Brunei's. For certain reasons, both malaysia and indonesia (I'm not sure about Bruneis') government use terminologies Malaysian and Indonesian languages (one of the reasons is that to unite these multi racial countries.) For academic reason, most of malaysian academicians use malay language in their writings and conversations. Nonetheless, malay language has broader vocabulary than malaysian language (because it is a compilation of indonesian, brunei's and malaysian). Indonesians however are in favor with their national language maybe because of their highly patriotic spirit. The pronounciation is also standardized and it's called Bahasa Baku. Bahasa Baku is widely spoken in Indonesia, East Malaysia and Brunei's. However it's not popular in West Malaysia mainly due to the heavy influence of Riau dialect or Riau language (the 'parent' of malay language). Zaidpjd 22.45 October 19 2005 (UTC)

I don't think there's any much difference between Malay language in Brunei, Singapore and Malaysia. Structurally speaking, they all have similar grammars and vocabulary and no big difference at all. Furthermore, in Brunei all Malay language academic textbook for school are written both by Malaysians and Bruneians. In Brunei, when we use the Malay language for official writings and conversations, we call it standard Malay as not to be confused with local Malay dialect in each country. I hope people stop referring Malay language as Bahasa Malaysia, because Bahasa Malaysia is (standard) Malay language.Gross 11:46, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
Then, who's regulating this language? Is it Dewan Bahasa dan Pustaka (DBP)? or MABBIM? Because Malay wikipedia stated that it's regulated by MABBIM, not DBP. And I'm not quite sure when you stated that Malaysian is a standard Malay language. And I already asked a linguist professor from Malaya University, he clearly said that Malaysian and Indonesian are part of Malay language. That's why Malay is regulated by MABBIM, not DBP. And talking about DBP, there's two DBP, Malaysia and Brunei and both departments regulating their own Malay languages (the Bruneis and Malaysian). 141.213.240.242 06:29, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
I was not referring to Malaysian but the term Bahasa Malaysia. Bahasa Malaysia is, as the article of Malay language states, Malay language. I've seen many articles in Wikipedia stating Bahasa Malaysia for Malay language instead of Malay. Now what I meant by standard Malay is the formal usage of Malay conforming grammar structure in textbooks or schools, which are being regulated by local DBP and/or MABBIM. So hopefully people stop referring Malay as Bahasa Malaysia.Gross 08:15, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Bahasa Malaysia is the national language of Malaysia in year XXXX. Previously, it was known Bahasa Melayu during Malaysia is known as Tanah Melayu. Unfortunately, the english has associated it to the word "Malay" for malay people and language. Name of the language is been change, with more adaption of external english and others word. Example: Technology in english become technologie in Bahasa Malaysia which this term is not indicate in Bahasa Melayu. But the word of "maju ke hadapan" is origin of a malay language and many others. Today, "Bahasa Baku" is been use in commercial with obvious pronunciation of "a" sound like the Americane. Is it going to be the language after "Bahasa Malaysia" and "Bahasa Melayu"?

Constitutionally, it has always been Bahasa Melayu (ie Malay language). It has never been changed. __earth (Talk) 23:54, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

I have always understood Bahasa Melayu and Bahasa Malaysia to mean the same thing. The first, when literally translated simple means "The Language of the Malays" and the second means "The Language of Malaysia". Bahasa Malaysia I have always found to be a particularly chauvinistic designation used by chauvinistic malays. How can anyone in the world in this day and age of global multiculturalism say that their language is the "National Language"? If George Bush were to decide that English was from now on to be referred to as "The Language of The United States" he would be quite rightly called a racist and an idiot for ignoring the millions of Americans that do not speak English as a first language and for trying to imply, indirectly, who may call themselves completely American and who may not. However my diatribe here is not for George Bush because they do no such thing in America. They do however do exactly that in Malaysia. Almost half of the population of Malaysia do not speak Malay as their first language (although in fairness I would estimate perhaps more than 90% of Malaysians are fluent in Malay). The term "Bahasa Malaysia" is intended to marginalize and disenfranchise those that do not speak Malay as their first language. However anybody who knows anything about the politics of Malaysia understands that this is only a small example of the systemic and openly admitted effort since independence to classify some Malaysians as more Malaysian than others. Bahasa Melayu is a much better term because it is more specific. It means the language of that specific group of peoples called the Malays. Ryan Albrey 04:09, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

On the subject of Bahasa Indonesia versus Bahasa Malaysia, I have to say again, the difference is mostly motivated by politics rather than the study of linguistics. When the 2 languages are written in an official style, and the use of regional slang is avoided, they are VERY similar. Anyone that can read the Indonesian Wikipedia stands a REALLY high chance of being able to read the Malaysian Wikipedia also. This is because as Encyclopedias they make an effort to avoid the use of slang. Bahasa Malaysia and Bahasa Indonesia are at most different dialects of the same language. The difference between the 2 is probably less than the difference between Manglish and Standard American English and nobody would argue that those should be regarded as separate languages. They are dialects of one another. What do I mean when I say the classification is motivated by politics? Firstly, the Malaysian and Indonesian governments for reasons explained in the paragraph above want to use the terms "Bahasa Indonesia" and "Bahasa Malaysia" internally. To do this they have to make a bigger deal out of the difference between the 2 than they would if the analysis were purely linguistic. They can't use the term Bahasa Malaysia to marginalize the Chinese if "The Language of Malaysia" happens to be spoken in Indonesia also. Secondly they wish to create a point of difference between one another. Malaysia in particular, like many other countries including my homeland of Australia, has a cultural chip on its shoulder. Malaysians are very keen to prove that there is such a thing as unique malaysianess (firefox disagrees that is a word, but I say it is). So despite in many ways being very culturally and linguistically similar Indonesians and Malaysians, for nationalistic reasons, would prefer to make a big deal about the difference between Bahasa Malaysia and Bahasa Indonesia. However I also guess I should mention I am not linguistics expert. I merely have an interest in the language and politics of South East Asia. Everything I have written in the above 2 paragraphs is merely speculation based on my perception of the situation from my time spent in Malaysia. I would however be interested to have my argument rebutted by a genuine expert. Ryan Albrey 04:09, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps if there exists authoritative research on the matters I have raised in the above paragraphs we can add a section called "Political Influences on Language Classification"? Even if the things I have written above are disputed by experts surely there can be little dispute that not all language classifications are made for purely linguistic reasons. Frequently politics gets in the way. Is it possible we can find some way to add this to the article without adopting a POV and without using primary research? Ryan Albrey 04:39, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Dear Ryan Albrey, saying Bahasa Malaysia and Bahasa Indonesia are two dialects of the same language is just as linguistically foolish as saying Spanish and Italian are two dialects of the same language. Spanish and Italian are mutually intelligible, yet they are different languages. Politics might capture some reasons for the differences, yet missing others. I would suggest narrowing the definition of these terms - 'language', 'dialect', 'slang' and 'accent'...and not using them interchangably. From what you typed above, I can see that you are generally talking from a social perspective rather than a linguistic one. To justify differences between two languages, one must first erase all assumptions and then look objectively at various aspects of the languages, such as the phonology, morphology, syntax, lexicon etc. Based on scholarly research papers on linguistics, Bahasa Indonesia and Bahasa Malaysia are two different languages. However, we must keep in mind that linguists distinguish between what are commonly labeled "dialects" and consider them different languages (e.g. American English is a different language from British English). I suggest you take a look at david crystal's encyclopedia of language for brief definitions of the terms I stated above.128.175.180.149 (talk) 22:00, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Since there are at least two different things called "Malay language", why do not we write this in the article to avoid confusion? Pls consider this (the link has been mentioned also at other part of this talkpage). Plus, pls check also the case of Scandinavian languages, which standardization lead to a lower level of intelligibility. 134.176.155.4 (Kembangraps from id: wiki) 13:28, 29 January 2008 (UTC).

[edit] Only 3 native words?

I'm not sure I'm interpreting this sentence correctly: It is said that the pure Malay words are "Beras", "Besi' and "Babi". All the other words were actually borrowed mainly from Arabic, Sanskrit, Tamil and other languages. Is that to say that the Malaysian language only has three native words, or are those names for the language? And is it actually true, or is it a joke? Rōnin 01:41, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

It is a joke for there is other words of malays such as "sayang", "kasih", "cinta" which means love. The best native word is " Terima Kasih" means thank you.

Thanks :) Rōnin 23:44, 25 June 2006 (UTC)


The theory of "Malay only have 3 pure words" is just a theory. This is because the study of Malay language by the Malayo-Polinesian or Malay Language specialists indicate that there are muuch more similar words which are grouped into Austronesian or Malayo-Polinesian survived(ancient) words. The similar words was created by Austronesian people before they dispersed to various parts of the world, South-East Asia, Madagascar, Melanesia, Micronesia, and Polinesia. Even the Malay language was exist long before the arrival of Indian, Chinese, Arabian, European, and other foreign peoples which are not the Austronesian people.Master of Books 12:04, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 1911 Encyclopaedia Britannica

" Malay is essentially, with few exceptions, a dissyllabic language, and the syllabic accent rests on the penultimate unless that syllable is open and short; e.g. datang, namaa, bhsr, diumpatkanflalah. Nothing in the form of a root word indicates the grammatical category to which it belongs; thus, kasih, kindness, affectionate, to love; ganti, a proxy, to exchange, instead of. It is only in derivative words that this vagueness is avoided. Derivation is effected by infixes, prefixes, affixes and reduplication. Infixes occur more rarely in Malay than in the cognate tongues. Examples are guruh, a rumbling noise, gumuruh, to make such a noise; tunjuli, to point, telunjuk, the forefinger; chuchuk, to pierce, cheruchuk, a stockade. The import of the prefixes me (mbng, mhfl, men, mhm), pe (peng, pen, pen, pem), ber (bel), per, phl, ka, di, thr,and affixes -- an, kan, i, lah -- will best appear from the following examples root word ajar, to teach, to learn; mengajar, to instruct (expresses an action); belajar, to study (state or condition); mengajari, to instruct (some one, trans.); mengajarkan, to instruct (in something, causative); pengajar, the instructor; pelajar, the learner; pkngajara n, the lesson taught, also the school; pelajaran, the lesson learnt; diajar, to be learnt; terajar, learnt; terajarkan, taught; terajari, instructed; [peraja (from raja, prince), to recognize as prince; perajakan, to crown as prince; karajaan, royalty]; ajarkanlah, teach! Examples of reduplication are ajar-ajar, a sainted person; ajar-berajar (or belajar), to be learning and teaching by turns; similarly there are forms like ajar-mengajar, berajar-ajaran, ajar-ajari, memperjar, mempirajarkan, memperajari, terbelajarkan, perbelajarkan, &c. Altogether there are upwards of a hundred possible derivative forms, in the idiomatic use of which the Malays exhibit much skill. See especially H. von Dewall, De vormveranderingen der Maleische taal (Batavia, 1864) and J. Pijnappel, Maleisch-Ilollandsch Woordenboek (Amsterdam, 1875), Inleiding. In every other respect the language is characterized by great simplicity and indefiniteness. There is no inflexion to distinguish number, gender or case. Number is never indicated when the sense is obvious or can be gathered from the context; otherwise plurality is expressed by adjectives such as sagala, all, and bak, many; more rarely by the repetition of the noun, and the indefinite singular by sa or stu, one, with a class-word. Gender may, if necessary, be distinguished by the words laki-laki, male, and perampilan, female, in the case of persons, and of jantan and bitina in the case of animals. The genitive case is generally indicated by the position of the word after its governing noun. Also adjectives and demonstrative pronouns have their places after the noun. Comparison is effected by the use of particles. Instead of the personal pronouns, both in their full and abbreviated forms, conventional nouns are in frequent use to indicate the social position or relation of the respective interlocutors, as, e.g. hamba tuan, the masters slave, i.e. I. These nouns vary according to the different localities. Another peculiarity of Malay (and likewise of Chinese, Shan, Talaing, Burmese and Siamese) is the use of certain classwords or coefficients with numerals, such as orang (man),when speaking of persons, ekor (tail) of animals, keping (piece) of flat things, biji (seed) of roundish things; e.g. lima biji, tilor, five eggs. The number of these class-words is considerable. Malay verbs have neither person or number nor mood or tense. The last two are sometimes indicated by particles or auxiliary verbs; but these are generally dispensed with if the meaning is sufficiently plain without them. The Malays avoid the building up of long sentences. The two main rules by which the order of the words in a sentence is regulated are subject, verb, object; and qualifying words follow those which they qualify. "

-- from the "Malay People" article in the 1911 Encyclopaedia Britannica -- Ancheta Wis 11:20, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Days of the Week?

Would it be worth noting that the Malay names for the days of the week (Isnin, Selasa, Rabu, etc) are also borrowed from Arabic? Personally, I find 'borrowed words' to be the most interesting section of every language article, but the list that the article has so far is quite long, and I'm not sure whether it would be relevant or overkill to add the days of the week as well. Also I'm not sure whether the names of the days of the week in Indonesian Malay are the same as Malaysian and Bruneian Malay... can anyone clarify? If the information is deemed worthy, I'll add it. Paperdoll51 03:17, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Sorry to post so late, but I think that's a good idea.
  • Ahad - Yaumul Ahad The first day
  • Isnin - Yaumul Isnain The second day
  • Selasa - Yaumul Salasa The third day
  • Rabu - Yaumul Arba'a The fourth day
  • Khamis - Yaumul Khomsah The fifth day
  • Jumaat - Jum'at Named because it's the day Muslims perform their Friday's prayer (Jum'ah Solah). :Could be from the word Jum'ah meaning gathering since Friday's prayer is perform in jemaah :(its like in groups) in mosques. So, perhaps Yaumul Jum'ah means the day of gathering.
  • Sabtu - Yaumul Sabt The seventh day.
I think that's why in Kelantan, Terengganu and Kedah, they start weekdays from Sundays.
Hope this helps the article. Perhaps someone who can speak arabic fluently could help clarify my :translation before posting it.RiZius 14:41, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Indonesian spell some of the days differently: Senin, Selasa, Rabu, Kamis, Jum'at, Sabtu, Minggu (Ahad is rarely used). Hayabusa future 14:06, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Malay" vs. "Bahasa Melayu"

What is the difference within Malaysia between "Malay" and "Bahasa Melayu"??? Are these 2 official languages within the country? I always thought they were one in the same (except 1 was the English word and the other a local language name for the same thing). HOWEVER, i just came across an article in wikipedia saying that road signs in Malaysia are sometimes written in "Malay", "Bahasa Melayu" and "English". Huh?? What's the difference between the first two? I realise that linguistic academics sometimes refer to malay languages group (which includes say Indonesian), but i accept the distinction between this and the official national language of Malaysia. Rather, my specific querstion is, within Malaysia, are the languages "Malay" and "Bahasa Melayu 2" seperate languages spoken? Are they really both listed on some signs? See the 2nd paragraph of this page. --Merbabu 02:09, 16 August 2006 (UTC)


Bahasa Melayu and Malay are exactly the same thing. Note that Bahasa Malaysia however refers to the standardized form of Malaysian Malay (i.e. textbook language, ignoring regional variants). Bahasa Melayu (or simply Malay) is a general term which can either be the standardized form or other variants and dialects spoken in Southeast Asia. Similarly, Bahasa Indonesia is a form of Malay (hence a form of Bahasa Melayu) which the standardized form used in Indonesia. In the Philippines, standardized Tagalog is called Filipino. --Anggerik 17:08, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] East Timor

Both this article and the Indonesian language article claim that the respective language is one of the offical working languages. Since East Timor was part of Indonesia, I bet it's Indonesian, not Malay. Should be changed here, if that't the case. JAL 82.92.15.150 11:50, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Derived" words in Tagalog

The part mentioning how Tagalog/Filipino borrowed Malay words does not ring entirely true.

  • Sakit - common in many of the Philippine languages.
  • Salamat - that will have to be researched as it may not be even Malay to begin with!
  • Bihon - most likely Chinese (Hakka) and not Malay in origin. From rice noodle 米粉
  • Tauhu - C'mon Tofu (?) is Malay? Of Chinese origin, lit. fermented bean 豆腐
  • Tulong - Another word common in Philippine languages.
  • Mangga - This is from one of the Dravidian languages of S. India. But, it's form may have come via the Portuguese.

If anything, the section should say that Tagalog (and many Philippine languages for that matter) are cognate with, not derived from, Malay.

The following link should shed some light. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austronesian_languages Joemaza 23:28, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

some words might be the same meaning in other language but we do not know which one is right or not. but i am sure that it comes from malay because bahasa melayu is popular in malay archipelango and probably they 'trade' words that comes from bahasa melayu.

and by the way, some of them are spelt wrongly. it's tolong, not tulong and it means help. and c'mon, chinese came to malaysia and trade with them before and they showed their language to malay people, they also showed 'sempoa'(it probably comes from chinese language) to calculate things (ancient calculator) and it is still used now. bihon is a type of noodle which is thin and white. hakka is not a malay word and i know what is it and it is a noodle which is very different from what you say because the hakka noodle is not slim or whatever you call it. ok? mangga is a mango and mark it*, it is not portuguese word because since their invasion or exploration came to malaysia, they took the words and borrowed it from malay language.

bahasa melayu does not always comes from the other language like indian, chinese, portuguese and so on. we might not know because almost everything (i meant by bahasa melayu only) comes from malaysian history. you know why they come to malaysia because of silk, spice, ores and so on. philipines probably not one of them because they are in an island and they are separated. who knows?

whatever it is, malay culture and it's language (bahasa melayu) will not dissapear as well as malay archipelango which speaks almost malay language. it is not only malaysia, but the whole world like philipines, china, thailand, vietnam and southeast asian countries.

and also, not to forget that some* vietnamese, burmese and thai people (i think) can speak malay. they were called "Melayu Champa."

Bahasa Menunjukkan Bangsa... User:sayasakit092 2:48AM, November 4th 2006.

Here's MY take:

  • If it's Tolong, then it's Tolong in Malay; Tulong in Tagalog, Ilokano, Sugbuanon (Cebuano) et alii. U/O were not highly differentiated in the proto language. There were only four vowels, /a/, /i/, /u/ and /ə/.
  • Hakka is the name of a people from China. You didn't read the line correctly.(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hakka) The noodles is of question and it's name comes from the language of the Hakka. They were known to be a seafairing people and many words in the Filipino languages can be traced back to Hakka, especially words related to food and cooking. I bet if I got my hands on an accredited Malay dictionary, replete with etymologies, I'd find an entry for Bihun, and it would say Hakka or at least of Chinese origin.
  • I didn't say that Malay should dissappear as you seem to purport.
  • Also, I will repeat COGNATE; one is not derived from the other, but derived from a proto-Autronesian language. Again: If anything, the section should say that Tagalog (and many Philippine languages for that matter) are cognate with, not derived from, Malay.

By the looks of your response, you didn't even BOTHER to take a look at the article about Austronesian languages before firing off your reply: (sic) bahasa melayu does not always comes from the other language like indian, chinese, portuguese and so on. But, in fact it does, a proto-Austronesian language from the island of Taiwan.

  • As for the Philippines, an archipelago (a group of islands), was a main trading post of the Spanish for over 400 years. (sic) you know why they come to malaysia because of silk, spice, ores and so on. philipines probably not one of them because they are in an island and they are separated. who knows?
  • And, if you don't know, then find out. That's what I did with my response. I reasearched my response EVEN when I knew that the information was misleading. I had to find proof... So, far, you're not wowwing me.
  1. You didn't read the line about the Hakka correctly, and you took Hakka to mean a noodle, not a people from China.
  2. You assert that the Philippines was not part of any trade in the area, when it was for several centuries under Spanish rule.
  3. You didn't read the article regarding the Austronesian languages.
  4. Although I do not deny the fact that Malay is spoken outside of Malaysia, you seem to assert that the languages (some 70-80) of the Philippines, Guam and Cham are all derived from Malay, which is false.
  5. You didn't research on the Wikipedia or anywhere else, period.

Joemaza 00:49, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Joemaza has done a good job explaining the scientific linguistic view of how Historical Linguistics and Modern day linguistic theory supports his assertions about word etymologies and language origins. I suggest that Sayasakit092 either take some University level course on Linguistics or not post about this subject at all. Atamagaii 03:46, 17 December 2006 (UTC)


To Atamagaii, Joemaza , or everybody

i am sorry. but i am not university person, Atamagaii, and i am 12 years old. probably i did a mistake because i read a book about languages and it says things i said. and it's an encyclopedia, i don't remember what is the title because i used it in library. i don't have a good grammar or languages in english. but i have a good grammar in my own language and i know where does my language come from, originally, not in malaysia if i'm not mistaken. but one thing that probably some countries said it's their own word (for example: manga, as someone said that it's an srivijayan word.) but they did not know that other people's language has the same meaning with it. sometimes i am too curious and i skim read the article. please i'm sorry.

And my 2nd last word is, Atamagaii, you should respect the other people, not to insult people. if you ask me to go to university taking about level course on linguistic in university, i suggest you should go to kindergarten or primary school learn how to respect people. i mean, if you have something to say, you should respect people because people might have other ideas or knowledge that came from other sources, and it's probably wrong. you should give some more examples to me, otherwise don't write what you want to say. and i am sorry.

i am so sorry again if i insult or showing things that is not true which might be an insult to other languages, especially to joemaza, really sorry, i'll pullback my words that i wrote before. and i do not plan or think to surprising or wowwing you.

mistakes on what i mean: joemaza, i know that you don't mean by dissappearing malay but what i mean is that people in malaysia use their malay and mix them with english. so, our languages became bad. for example, a sentence: i don't care 'lah!'. the term of 'lah' is used in some words, just like we said in english, beco'ming.' but it is in the end of the word. Siapakah kamu? means Who are you? which you might know. that's an example. and second of all, the problem is that not many people speaks malay, malay people speaks malay but some people used it in a wrong way, which what i meant dissapearing. i can't give you example of it because most people don't use it because it's not appropriate.

and cham language is malay. cham language is malay and when you spelt it, is malay. just the pronounciation when someone talk doesn't sound like malay. there is austronesian language but austronesian is australia and new zealand. vietnam is not located in austronesian countries. it is in southeast asia, if you know. and again, different people had different sources. and like you said, who knows. we do not have a person like in UN, they have 'chair', which is the person who declares people who won the debate. i knew this by reading it's own website, http://www.un.org/, but that's another story.

User:Sayasakit092 9:59PM 26 December 2006

You're a brave 12-year-old... or are you now 14. Apology accepted.
Now, a lesson that you could take from this is not to respond they way you did. Otherwise, you will get a similar response. If you want to prove your point, prove it with facts, not assumptions or conclusions. They might sound good, but without facts and research they sound like weak arguments.
Also... Atamagaii, I thank you for you support, but the 12, 14 year old has a point. Please, be courteous. This is a discussion, not a forum to put people down even if they seem to not have done due diligence. I even invite you to question some of the points that I've brought up. This is all but a process of validating facts and sharing it with others around the globe. Even though Sayasakit092 and I don't agree, I admire his bravery to write up what he did. It took courage and now he knows how to conduct himself better for future discussions. Maybe this will inspire him to specialize in Malay linguistics. :-)
Can you back up your claim that "Cham" is in fact Malay? If anything, I'd say that it is Austronesian. It may have branched off what has now become Malay, but with the distance in georgraphy and time, it would say that there is degredation in the intelligibility tha tyou claim.
Joemaza 21:36, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

To put the discussion back on track, here's another question about borrowed words:

In the list there's the word dua which of course reminds one of the Sanskrit word for "two", dva (or the Persian as you like, of Indo-European origin, at least). Now, I've just got Dempwolffs book open in front of me ("Vergleichende Lautlehre des Austronesischen Wortschatzes", 1934), and I see that there are quite a few cognate words in the related "Indonesian", "Melanesian", and "Polynesian" languages, namely:

"Uraustronesisch" ḍuva‘ "two":

  • Tagalog dalawá’,
  • Toba Batak dua‘,
  • Javanese loro‘,
  • "Ngadju-Dajak" due‘,
  • "Hova" rua‘,
  • Fiji rua‘,
  • Sa'a rue‘, ro‘,
  • Tonga ‘ua’,
  • Futuna/Samoa lua‘

I am not an expert in Austronesian linguistics, so I ask you, out of interest, if it is possible that this is a borrowing from Sanskrit or Persian that has spread all over the Austronesian territory, or is this correspondence between two very different language families - the Indo-European and the Austronesian - just a curious coincidence?

130.60.142.66 13:53, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

You have to go beyond just single words. You have to take a look at grammar and how similar they are. But, it could be plausible, but you'd have to take a look also that when it comes to numbers, it's usual that the entire set is borrowed. An example, is the coexistance of both native and Spanish numbers in many Philippine languages. So, it is most likely a coincidence. Es tut mir leid.
Joemaza 21:36, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Grammar

A grammar section would be useful, covering issues such as word order (SVO?), plural, tense, copula, and anything else which shows that Malay (or at least basic Malay) is grammatically easy (if I remember correctly). Measure words and prefixes (but not suffixes) are already there is some form. --Henrygb 19:02, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

I want to say that I'm pleased to see a fuller grammar section. Congratulations. Being a linguist, I'd love to see a lot more, if possible. Joemaza 00:50, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sounded political

I can't help but noticing that the 'Writing system' section sounded a tad political than what it should've been. No idea how to change it to make it sound more neutral. Anyone can help?

--Danazach 19:32, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Danazach,

My $0.02:-

"Latin on the other hand shows the dark age of Malay where Malays are taken over and exploited by European foreign powers; Portugal, the Netherlands and Great Britain."

Perhaps "dark age" could be replaced by another word? The Latin alphabet is used widely by a number of languages - and the shift to using this writing system could be a method of standardisation.

[edit] buku

Wouldn't this word's origin rather be the Dutch "boek" than the English "book"? Marvan 18:55, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Glottal Stops and Tonic Syllables

Hi everyone. I have decided to ask these questions in the hopes that someone - maybe a native speaker or a someone with more expertise on the subject - can add these clarifications to the "Phonology" section of the article, because it has been sometime since I am looking for these answers, and I am sure more beginning students of these languages have been having the same doubts as me:

1. I think I read somewhere that in Malay and Indonesian there is an "automatic" glottal stop before each word-initial vowel (even if this vowel is preceded by a word ending in a consonant), and between any vowels - with the exception of diphthongs, obviously. I did not gave this much thought though, until I realized that that was the way the words were being pronounced in the "Rosetta Stone - Indonesian" language learning software. So here is the question: In the "RS-I" software, are the words being pronounced like that just to make them more easily intelligible for beginners like myself, or are they really pronounced like that in everyday conversations? For instance, a simple sentence like

Apakah ada seorang pria di atas rumah itu?

Would be pronounced

[ʔa'pakah 'ʔada se'ʔorang 'pria di 'ʔatas 'rumah 'ʔitu]

Or, in normal (or maybe fast-paced) conversation,

[a'pakah'adase'orang'priadi'atas'rumah'itu]?

(' = Tonic Syllable)

2. In the same software ("Rosetta Stone - Indonesian"), the tonic syllables of some words seem to be the last one instead of the penultimate, even when the vowel in this syllable is not the schwa, and some words even seem to "change" their tonic syllable according to who is saying them. So here is the other question: Are the accentuation rules really just

"If the penultimate has a schwa, the last syllable is the tonic one; if the penultimate does not have a schwa, the penultimate is the tonic one;"

Or is this wrong?

Thank you very much, XVoX 23:56, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Hey, I think you asked very good questions. I'm a native speaker who's also doing linguistics, so I'll try to answer your questions.

Stress and tone are not contrastive in Malay and Indonesian. Therefore, if you're aiming for intelligible speech then you don't have to worry so much about this. Answering your question, the accentuation in the first example does seem a bit robotic if pronounced. I would say that in most cases the stress is penultimate, although as you pointed out there are some variations between different speakers (and this is because there's no fixed word-level stress)...There's a lot of debate in linguistics about the stress pattern in Indonesian, but if you are learning the language for practical purposes, then I think there's no need to get into that. Hope my answer helps.Syedhusni (talk) 06:00, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Javanese a Malay dialect?

"However, many Malay dialects are not as mutually intelligible: for example, Kelantanese pronunciation is difficult even for some Malaysians to understand, while Javanese tends to have a lot of words unique to it which will be unfamiliar to other speakers of Malay."

So Javanese is a dialect of Malay? Hayabusa future 02:16, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't think so. However it seems Malaysians also regard Kelantanese, Yawi, and Minangkabau of Negeri Sembilan as a dialect of Malay, so why not? :-p--Gombang 10:57, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Be mindful of WP:OR. __earth (Talk) 11:17, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

No, it isn't. I've just fixed that.E.Cogoy 17:03, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Speaking of Malay dialects, Minangkabau language can be considered a Malay dialect because it uses many Malay words, although they were slight differences in pronunciation, e.g., itiak = itik, for "duck" & goriang = goreng, for "fry/fried". --121.218.215.16 (talk) 12:31, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] The hatnote

Please see Template talk:Distinguish#Incompatible wording for Distinguish2

For now I have changed the hatnote to

Not to be confused with the Malayalam language, spoken in India.

--83.253.36.136 15:16, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Classification and related languages

The last paragraph of this subsection notes,

Although each language of the family is mutually unintelligible, their similarities are rather striking.

However, I have it on good authority that Māori and Hawaiian, for example, are very much mutually intelligible. Perhaps this should be changed to read, although many languages of the family are mutually unintelligible?

75.35.227.117 06:47, 5 July 2007 (UTC) --~~~~Insert non-formatted text here

Hmmm... that's interesting. Maybe is should read thusly.
Joemaza 21:41, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Reduplication

I think the reduplication area needs some adjustments. Although "orang-orang" could mean "scarecrow", it could also be the plural of "orang", and the same goes with "hati". It is important to stress here that it is a case of lexical ambiguity instead of the semantics of the form changing altogether. Below I give you grammatical example sentences (with glossing and translation) containing the reduplicated words above:-

Saya suka membantu orang-orang cacat bila ada peluang.
I like me-help person.RED handicapped when exist chance
"I like to help handicapped people when there is a chance."

Hati-hati kami bukannya senang nak dilukakan.
liver/heart.RED our not.nya easy want di.wound.kan
"Our hearts are not easily wounded/broken."

Syedhusni (talk) 00:13, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. However the reduplication section probably needs further elaboration. A few examples might be good.
Especially since recently quite a number of terms in ICT and sciences have been created using partial reduplication such as papan kekunci (keyboard), tetikus (computer mouse),pepaku (spike) and something less recent jejari (radius)

--Danazach (talk) 22:43, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Ok I have changed it but I don't know how to include the examples you mentioned. Obviously we know that in those examples, reduplication is not a plural marker, therefore they probably have to go under another subtopic. Any ideas? Syedhusni (talk) 22:50, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] consonant phonemes

I don't think that "ts /θ/" and "dz /ð/" are phonemes in Malay, especially the voiced interdental fricative. I can't think of any Malay word that has this sound. As for "ts /θ/", I think it is written "th" instead of "ts". The only Malay word that I can think of that has this sound is "hadith", which is borrowed from Arabic, and even this word is sometimes written and pronounced with an "s". Syedhusni (talk) 00:27, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

I also don't think that there is a minimal pair of a word with a trill "r" and a flapped "r" in Malay, therefore they are not phonemes. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think there's only the trill "r". Syedhusni (talk) 00:34, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Orthographic notes

I took out the note about 'x' representing /ks/, /z/ and /s/ because it is unnecessary. Another note, the one about "k" at the end of word being pronounced as a glottal stop should not be under orthography, it is a phonological phenomenon, just like the final vowel reduction - /a/ to schwa in some varieties128.175.180.149 (talk) 05:44, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] bahasa rojak

When reading the last section, previously titled "Usage among the younger generation", I noticed that it is making broad generalizations without any evidence. As a native Malaysian from Kuala Lumpur, I dont think only the youths use bahasa rojak ( I have changed this). Please refer Wong Khek Seng's 1987 thesis "Persilihan Bahasa di Kampung Kerinci", in which code-switching has been documented to have occurred in Kuala Lumpur even back then. I have changed the title for the time being, but I seriously think that section should be changed into a section on code-switching in Malay rather than "usage among the younger generation" or "colloquial usage". As for the slang words and the SMS abbreviations, I think they should go under a different sub-topic from the code switching part, because they are very different phenomena linguistically. Please give your opinions on this matter...I will let it sit for a week or two before making any changes.Thanks Syedhusni (talk) 18:43, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

I have edited the section and excluded the "r" adding by youths when smsing, because it only happens in writing and the words are still not pronounced with the "r". SMS/text shorthand should be introduced in another page as it does not belong in the main page. For example, the page on the English language does not include any English sms/text language. I hope future editors would consider linguistic justifications before posting. Thanks Syedhusni (talk) 22:17, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Shouldn't this article include Indonesian?

The article on the Indonesian language begins as follows: "Indonesian (Bahasa Indonesia) is the official language of Indonesia. Indonesian is a standardized dialect of the Malay language that was officially defined..." According to the Indonesian article, Indonesian is a form of Malay. According to this article, Malay is only similar to Indonesian. This article says that Indonesia adopted Malay as its official language but then goes on to refer to only the official register of it used in Malaysia (and Singapore & Brunei?). Shouldn't the wording of the introduction be changed, and the speaker statistics be changed to include Indonesian? And then shouldn't the point be made that the orthography being used in the article is Bahasa Malaysia, with a "main article" link to Indonesian?GSTQ (talk) 22:34, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Actually, on closer inspection this article is riddled with inconsistencies. I'm going to fix them up so that Indonesian is included as another official register of the Malay language.GSTQ (talk) 00:06, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

GSTQ, I think you're right that this article should include Indonesian. However, if we should take this direction, we should assimilate the whole Indonesian article into this article. Considering that the term "Indonesian" is more of a political nomenclature rather than linguistic, the language should be included as a variation of Malay. The problem with this is "officially" these two languages are considered different, even in official language lists they are usually listed separately (Check out list of languages with native speakers). Therefore, I agree that some amendments should be made to get rid of the inconsistencies, but the article should remain as a separate one from Indonesian. As for the statistics, I agree with you, but wikipedia does not allow citing of own research, and on most linguistic literature they are listed as separate languages...so until you (or me, or anyone, for that matter) can find a citation which states otherwise, we should stick with this one. Thanks for raising this great pointSyedhusni (talk) 22:27, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Please check this out - http://www.ethnologue.org/show_language.asp?code=mly Syedhusni (talk) 22:45, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't think merging the whole Indonesian article with this one is necessary, Indonesian as an established language standard deserves its own article. I don't understand your point about "original research". That Indonesian and Malay are the same language is a well-acknowledged fact, not original research. Here's one source of many: "Indonesian is a 20th century name for Malay... Malay is just one of many scores, perhaps hundreds, of different languages in the area now occupied by the Republic of Indonesia. In 1928 the Indonesian nationalist movement chose it as the future nation's national language. Its name was changed to Bahasa Indonesia..."[1]GSTQ (talk) 21:58, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

That article also said "Depending on how you define a language and how you count its number of speakers", indicating that it is subjective how you define a language. Spanish and Italian can be defined as the same language according to some school of linguistics, but that doesn't mean that they are. After reading the article, it is heavily Indonesia-centric, if you would allow that term. For example, it stated that " its name was changed to Bahasa Indonesia, literally: "the language (bahasa) of Indonesia", this is only true for Indonesia, however, in Brunei, Malaysia, and Singapore, the language is Bahasa Melayu or Malay. I guess what I'm trying to say here is that this argument can go both ways and that Indonesian and Malay are the same language is a well-acknowledged CLAIM and not fact and a very debatable claim at that. Just google and search the question "are malay and indonesian the same language?" and I am sure you would see both sides of the coin. At present, some linguists define Indonesian and Malay as different languages (please refer ethnologue link above) and some linguists, including the writer of the article, define them as the same language. I would say that they are branches of the same language, but they have grown to be very distinct from each other, therefore I disagree that the number of native speakers of Malay should include the number of Indonesian speakers, with the exception of the speakers of Malay languages in central and southern Sumatra.


the first sentence in the article is very inaccurate:-

"Indonesian is a 20th century name for Malay"...

I am sure the whole Malay speaking population in Malaysia (myself included), Brunei, and Singapore will not agree with this. That sentence should be:-

"Indonesian is a 20th century name for Malay IN INDONESIA"

and this is because the Malay in Malaysia, Singapore and Brunei is NOT Indonesian.Syedhusni (talk) 03:34, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

I think this article[2] paints a better and more neutral picture of the linguistic situation in the region. Please take a look and tell me what you think. Syedhusni (talk) 04:04, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

I think you missed the point of the quotation if you think that the absence of "in Indonesia" was important. The quotation does not purport to include the Malay of other countries. It says Indonesian is a 20th century name, not the 20th century name. The point of the quotation was that Indonesian is a variant of Malay, and that this is not original research. I am familiar with the debate about what constitutes a language. All I'm trying to resolve here is how this article, and indeed all of Wikipedia, deals with this situation, and frankly since both Indonesia and Malaysia's constitutions claim Malay as the national language of each it seems a pretty uncontroversial claim that they are the same language.GSTQ (talk) 04:57, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Ok I need to know what you mean by saying they're the same language. It seems more likely that Indonesian is a variant of Malay rather than them being the same language because it flows more smoothly with the general fact about both languages branching from the local malay language family (even then you have to put Indonesian lower in the language family tree Austronesian >Malayo-Polynesian>Malayic>Malayan>Local Malay>Malay>Indonesian instead of Local Malay branching out to Indonesian and Malay). However there is still a lot of linguistic controversy over this matter. I remember reading a perceptual linguistic research about how Singapore Malay, Malaysian Malay and Brunei Malay speakers understand less than 50% of Indonesian in its most standard form and how the 3 variants have a higher degree of mutual intelligibility and are more similar (I will see if I can find the online version of this article). Nevertheless, I agree that this article has some inconsistencies that has to be resolved. Currently, I think both the Malay and Indonesian articles are going by the ethnologue stats and that's why you get the dichotomy in the native speakers statistics. Personally I think this is the better way to go.

About the official language of Indonesia in the constitution (article 36))[3], the exact term they used was Bahasa Indonesia, and not Bahasa Melayu (nor was Indonesian defined as a variant/standardized dialect of Malay), and this is one of the reasons for Indonesian being considered a separate language from Malay. Therefore, I dont think it is an uncontroversial issue because politically they are different languages. And linguistically it is controversial because if we were to say they are the same language (or Indonesian as a variant of Malay), it requires a revision of the current version of the language family tree that I mentioned above.Syedhusni (talk) 09:38, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Going back to your first post, I think the word "dialect" in the statement " Indonesian is a standardized dialect of the Malay language" should first be changed to a more neutral term like "variant"...just my 2 cents' worthSyedhusni (talk) 09:49, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] 400 millions?

Where does the figure of 400 millions Malay speakers come from? Indonesia, Malaysia, Singapore, Brunei, Pattani and East Timor together only make some 265 millions inhabitants. Meursault2004 (talk) 01:58, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] 400 millions? - Answer

I'm not really sure about this amount of speakers but I want to add: Indonesia, Malaysia, Singapore, Brunei, East Timor, Southern Thailand, Southern Phillippines.

I think It's about 300 Millions something... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.53.192.107 (talk) 12:34, 28 April 2008 (UTC)