Talk:Magna Carta

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Magna Carta was a good article, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these are addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.

Delisted version: August 9, 2006
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[edit] question

This statement from the article is confusing:

By the Stuart age, Magna Carta had attained an almost mystical status for its admirers and was seen as representing a ‘golden age’ of English liberties extant prior to the Norman invasion.

Didn't the Norman invasion happen 200 years before the Magna Carta?

J. Crocker 18:15, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

I think there is a general romantic view that the Norman and Anglo-Saxons each had strengths of governance that came together between 1066 and the 14th century to form the most sophisticated government in Europe in the High Middle Ages. One of the Anglo-Saxons strengths were its legal system (see Anglo-Saxon law) and I suppose the above sentence could be suggesting Magna Carta contains vestiges of that. Norman culture was not yet fully integrated with Anglo-Saxon when Magna Carta was written. I didn't write the above so I'm taking a guess at what was meant. -- Stbalbach 14:34, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Uhm, hey people. Check this out, will you?

Uhm, hey people. Check this out, will you? The Declaration of Arbroath (1320) was un-conquered Scotland versus NORMAN king Edward I. The Magna Carta (1215) was conquered England versus NORMAN king John. The Charter of Liberties (1100) was conquered England versus NORMAN king Henry I. Do we see a pattern here?? In 1054, Rome broke away from the Orthodox Eastern Church in the Great Schism. Southern Italy, Sicily, and the British Isles, amongst others, did NOT JOIN ROME IN SCHISM and remained (briefly) Orthodox. THIS IS WHY ROME COMMISSIONED THE NORMANS to conquer Italy, Sicily, and "Heretic England" in the 1050s and 1060s. See that?? Southern Italy, Sicily, and "Heretic England" were converted to ROMAN CATHOLICISM by the sword -- again, this is why "William the Conquistador" conquered England JUST LIKE CORTEZ would conquer Mexico, or the TEUTONIC KNIGHTS would brutalize Poland and Holy Mother Russia. Please note before anyone steps to me that "Conquistador" = "Conqueror" in Spanish, they mean the exact same thing and are both daughter words of the same LATIN root. The point is, we unambiguously have a common denominator here: ANTI-NORMAN CATHOLICISM. Arbroath: vs. NORMAN Edward I; Magna Carta: vs. NORMAN John; Charter of Liberties vs. NORMAN Henry I. These documents clearly represent the gradual reassertion of the ancient Liberties of Pre-Norman Anglo-Saxon Britain... this is why these types of documents start cropping up only AFTER 1066, see that?? These documents represent a gradual return to Pre-Norman norms; they are clearly a REACTION against Norman tyranny according to the dictionary definition of that word (single ruler, absolute power, ie, Norman King / his Papal overlord). This assertion is neither unwarranted nor hard to see. Normans invade in 1066, nearly a decade of strife ensues, by 1075 20% of the population is KIA or has fled into exile. That's pretty fierce resistance, the Anglo-Saxons obviously didn't want the Normans around. And lo-and-behold, over the next 250 years, the Anglo-Saxons and Scots inhabitants of Britain gradually reassert their pre-Norman rights. This should not be controversial.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.235.44.73 (talk • contribs) .

[edit] The "Myth-Busters"

Could we please change the name of this section? Something along the lines of "Proposed Reform of Magna Carta," perhaps? ----Revolver66 22:26 16/12/06.

I am going to implement this suggestion, because "The Myth-Busters" is a really dumb title. Further editing of the title of this section is welcome. Josh Thompson 16:41, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Four original copies

As far as I know, one original copy is in Lincol, one in Salisbury but two are held at the British Library. http://www.bl.uk/onlinegallery/themes/histtexts/magnacarta.html —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 193.179.148.53 (talk) 12:24, 28 December 2006 (UTC).

I've heard that one of the four copies is in Virginia Beach,VA.

There are two copies at the British Library - I was just there in June 2007. One is the burned copy mentioned in the article, and the other is in much better shape. --Turketwh 20:30, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] CItation Tag for Lackland

I placed the [citation needed] request on the following statement: Note: John's nickname of "Lackland" does not refer to these losses to France, but to the fact that, unlike his elder brothers, he had received no land rights on the continent at birth. The reason is that the article on John of England directly contradicts this statement, and consistency is important. If anyone has a validating source for this, please cite it, remove my tag, and kindly fix the King John article as well. Thanks! Kevin/Last1in 23:34, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Article 13?

This page states in the section on the articles that remain current in UK/English (?) Law that article 13 - guarenteeing the rights of the City of London - is still current. Looking on the database cised a few lines down I notice that this is actually listed there are article 9. Is this an error that should be corrected?

[edit] Did King John literally sign the Magna Carta?

This link says that King John was illiterate and that later illustrations of him signing the Carta are incorrect as he only used the royal seal. If that's true, I think it should be mentioned in the article (at least under the illustration of King signing the Carta). --83.131.162.83 15:08, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Yeah I've heard that before. Probably belongs in the misconceptions section, although it needs a better source. -- Stbalbach 02:06, 25 March 2007 (UTC)


i have aslo heard it said that way, though some people say he did sign it. i doubt it, but some illustrtions show that he did sign it.

[edit] What do you think of the Magna Carta?

i think that the Magna Carta is a very interesting way of the people under tKing John's reign showed that they were mad. i think that the Magna Carta aslo influenced society.

[edit] article 54

Here's something which seems wrongly read in the article:

Clause 54 says that no man may be imprisoned on the testimony of a woman except on the death of her husband.

Here are three translations I've found

  1. 34(!): No Man shall be taken or imprisoned upon the Appeal of a Woman for the Death of any other, than of her husband. [1]
  1. (54) No one shall be arrested or imprisoned on the appeal of a woman for the death of any person except her husband. [2]
  1. 54. No one shall be taken or imprisoned on account of the appeal of a woman concerning the death of another than her husband. [3]

And the original:

  • Nullus capiatur nec imprisonetur propter appellum femine de morte alterius quam viri sui.

To me it seems that the article says that people cannot be imprisoned for homicide based on a woman's testimony unless the person who was killed was her husband. Anyone object to this change?

(I also removed a reference to Magna Carta copies from pre 1023.) -- Myke Cuthbert (talk) 06:14, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cat:Anti-semitism

I am adding this to Category:Antisemitism due to the references to unequal law against Jews (in case anyone is wondering why it is in that category). Valley2city 21:12, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm a little puzzled. I was sent here by this excellent essay [4] at the Reference Desk. I note the specific quote talks about debts due to Jewish lenders, and ends with "in like manner let it be done touching debts due to others than Jews." How precisely is this an unequal law? Hornplease 02:15, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
No reply. Taking it out. Hornplease 05:54, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] In Parliament

The reference to 'British navy' should be changed 'English navy', since the British state of the United Kingdom of Great Britain did not exist in 1664.

Also, the spelling convention of the article is not consistently British, which it really ought to be.

[edit] semi-protection

Is the semi-protection of this article intended to be permanent? mako (talk•contribs) 00:18, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Apparently not. And please remember to sign post like so- ~~~~

DarkestMoonlight (talk) 14:52, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] CSI

"The 'burnt copy', which was found in the records of Dover Castle in the 17th century and so is assumed to be the copy that was sent to the Cinque Ports. It was subsequently involved at a house fire at its owner's property, making it all but illegible."

This statement is probably incorrect since badly burnt texts can be read relatively easily when illuminated with infrared light. This is done in criminal investigations every day. 81.0.68.145 21:30, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] America and Manchester

Way back in January '07, an IP address removed the following text from the America section:

"The fact that this cry could have equally been applied in the United Kingdom seemed to be lost on them, as at the time, Manchester and Birmingham had no MP."

This change seems to have gone unnoticed to date, and the removal of the sentence makes the paragraph confusing, to say the least (what has Manchester got to do with anything in the article as it stands?). I was going to just put the original text back in, but it struck me that the wording is somewhat POVish, particularly the "seems to have been lost on them" bit. Something needs to be done with that small part of the article, but by someone who knows the subject (ie not me!): either replacing the original text; or rewording the text to get rid of the POV; or getting rid of the reference to Manchester altogether. Carre 09:03, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The first clause to be repealed

The article currently says both that

The repeal of clause 26 in 1829 (by 9 Geo. 4 c. 31 s. 1) was the first time a clause of Magna Carta was repealed.

and that

The major breakthrough occurred in 1828 with the passing of the first Offences Against the Person Act, which for the first time repealed a clause of Magna Carta, namely Clause 36.

So I'm assuming that 9 Geo. 4 c. 31 s. 1 was the first Offences Against the Person Act, but was it in 1829 or 1828? And more importantly, did it repeal clause 26 (which is about the estates of deceased debtors) or 36 (which prohibits courts from charging a fee for certain writs)? Marnanel 12:05, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Runnymeade

There seems to be no mention in the article that the Magna Carta was signed at Runnymeade, shouldn't this be changed? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.144.126.145 (talk) 20:53, August 20, 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Clause Error

"Clause 9 guarantees the “ancient liberties” of the city of London."

it isnt clause 9 but rather Clause 13 that does that —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.126.182.147 (talk) 23:30, August 28, 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Original research

Hi everybody. Slightly at a loss to know how to react to this article. There's a wealth of material, and I'm sure the majority of it is well researched. However, large chunks appear to be someone's thesis. Looking at this talk page, I'm assuming it's Neiljamesking's thesis. The entire article between "The Tudors" and "Influences on later constitutions" is without citations and contains quite a lot of what is essentially opinion, which is fine in a thesis but not in Wikipedia. I can only see one citation in thousands of words of text, and we get writing like: "apparently it was seen as no more special than any other statute"; "The Charter had no real effect until the Elizabethan age"; "In the Elizabethan age, England was becoming the most powerful force in Europe and so pride became a primary force in academia". That's three examples in a few paragraphs. I mean the last sentence is just so wrong on so many levels: who says that England was becoming the most powerful force in Europe? In what sense? Certainly not in terms of a standing army. What about the French and Spanish? Did the Elizabethans think of themselves as the most powerful force in Europe? Who says that pride was a primary force in acedemia? How would you demonstrate this, anyway? And I'm sure I could make an interesting case that the Elizabethans were determined to prove their Roman origins precisely because they were trying to assert their moral superiority, not because they thought they were the most powerful nation in Europe. It would make a good essay for precisely the same reasons as it makes for bad Wikipedia writing: it's controversial, and you can have a point of view on it. But Wikipedia is not supposed to have a point of view; it's supposed to neutrally report verifiable facts.

I'm very reluctant to remove from Wikipedia well researched material, when you compare it to the large amount of articles with almost no research at all, but surely something has to be done to this chunk of the article.

Unless anyone strenuously objects, I'll go through and try to tidy up the worst examples of opinon writing. It's quite difficult though, because it's written as a thesis by someone who clearly knows far more about Magna Carta than I ever will. Does anyone know if is Neiljamesking still active? A joint edit with the person who knows about the subject would be preferable.

--Merlinme 17:57, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

it's written as a thesis by someone who clearly knows far more about Magna Carta than I ever will.
I would suggest then leaving it alone and wait for someone else to correct it. It's not that bad at the moment. -- 71.191.36.194 13:51, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
The current version is after I've edited it quite heavily. Some of the thesis was just plain wrong. --Merlinme 09:00, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Chartists

Is it actually correct that the Chartists relied on Magna Carta in their arguments? I do vaguely remember them relying on the spirit of Magna Carta. But as far as I'm aware they didn't claim they wanted to return to Magna Carta (which would imply they had no idea of its contents). They were Chartists because of the People's Charter, not Magna Carta, and they knew the People's Charter went much further.

The only reference I can find to anything to do with Magna Carta in the whole period is someone comparing the 1832 Reform Act to a second Magna Carta. Neither the Wikipedia nor 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica Chartism entries even mention Magna Carta.

--Merlinme 16:35, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Norman" instead of "Anglo-Saxon"???

In the first paragraph after the intorduction, titled "Events leading to Magna Carta", there is I think a typo in the second sentence. It reads:

"This was due to a number of factors including the sophisticated centralised government created by the procedures of the new Anglo-Saxon systems of governance, and extensive Anglo-Norman land holdings in Normandy. "

I believe it should read "...of the new Norman systems of governance," instead of "Anglo-Saxon systems", and indeed this link, when clicked, does correctly point to an article about the Normans.

If I understand my history correctly, it was the Normans that established a strong centralized government in England, which allowed them to effeciently consolidate power in their new holdings.

4.154.4.97 18:37, 9 September 2007 (UTC)Danny

It was a hybrid combination of both Norman and AS systems. 96.231.161.184 (talk) 02:48, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Contradiction

The article has a contradiction regarding King John's seal on the document.

there were no signatures on the original document, only a single seal by the king. The words of the charter-Data per manum nostram-signify that the document was personally given by the king's hand. By placing his seal on the document, the King and the barons followed common law that a seal was sufficient to authenticate a deed, though it had to be done in front of witnesses. John's seal was the only one, and he did not sign it. The barons neither signed nor attached their seals to it.[4]

and then:

Numerous copies were made each time it was issued, so all of the participants would each have one — in the case of the 1215 copy, one for the royal archives, one for the Cinque Ports, and one for each of the 40 counties of the time. Several of those copies still exist and some are on permanent display. If there ever was one single 'master copy' of Magna Carta sealed by King John in 1215, it has not survived.

The first paragraph suggests there is a single original document with King John's seal, the second paragraph says no such thing is know to exist. Which is correct? -- 71.191.36.194 13:45, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Why is this a contradiction? The first paragraph is in the past tense: "there were no signatures on the original document"; not "there are no signatures on the original document". There was an original document; it has not survived. I don't see any contradiction. --Merlinme 09:03, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Error in the section discussing weights and measures

Section 2.3 says "Clause 25 sets out a list of standard measures". This is an error of fact - it is clause 35 that says this: "35. There shall be one measure of wine throughout our entire kingdom, and one measure of ale; also one measure of grain, namely, the quarter of London; and one width of dyed cloth, russet [cloth], and hauberk [cloth], namely, two yards between the borders. With weights, moreover, it shall be as with measures." - see any of the online texts to confirm this (sorry, new user, so can't make this correction myself) MatthewVernon 13:05, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Have you checked that you're looking at the right charter? Clause numbers are different in the 1215 and 1297 versions. I don't have time right now, but I'll check later unless someone's put a comment here. --Merlinme 14:35, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
I've had a quick look, and the weights and measures clause is indeed 25 in the 1297 charter, 35 in the 1215 charter. As we're discussing which clauses remained in force, and the numbering goes up to 63, it seems reasonable to assume that we're talking about the 1215 charter here, so 35 is correct. The different versions of the charter do make referring to particular clauses confusing though. --Merlinme 16:27, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Articles?

Sorry if I'm missing something in the discussion above, but why doesn't this thing have any articles - like, "the Magna Carta"? Is it really referred to as "Magna Carta" with no definite article? I have never seen nor heard such a thing before. -69.127.18.205 (talk) 00:29, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, I just saw the "usage" paragraph in the article. Do we have a source that states that scholarly principle holds it to be called "magna carta," beyond simply stating the obvious fact that latin doesn't have definite articles? In other words, is this purely an abstract linguistic thing or is it actually really truly scholarly convention to refer to it without a "the"?-69.127.18.205 (talk) 00:34, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
Most don't use "the". We just need to pick one method and be consistent, even if not everyone uses that method. The real pros and experts don't use "the". 96.231.161.184 (talk) 02:45, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Prevalence of the the

The academic use of "the Magna Carta" does appear less prevalent than "Magna Carta", though amusingly to me (since I've only ever heard Commonwealthers say simply "Magna Carta") the article appears more common in British academic usage than American: "the magna carta" gets 7,260 hits on .edu sites and 2,140 on .ac.uk sites, while "magna carta" alone gets 18,700 on .edu, and 3,230 on .ac.uk sites. I.e. 40% of UK academic usage includes "the", versus only 30% of American academic usage. At least, as best one can gauge.

I think those search results go a long way to establishing that the article is pretty common even in academic circles, and its use in common parlance is solidly established: the OED entry for Magna Carta merely says "usually without article"; the BBC uses the definite article frequently; the hansard style guide of the Australian Parliament refers to "the Magna Carta" (p.15); and, anecdotally, I've never heard an American say it without "the". Thus I've amended the Usage and spelling section to be clearer on the prevalence of the definite article both inside and outside of academia.--Severinus (talk) 01:42, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Is google a good methodology for determining how "academia" does things? EDU sites have a lot of stuff that is not authoritative. Probably the best way is to look at how the major University Press' handle it, they basically set the current standards that Wikipedia is trying to match (on this subject). Oxford or Cambridge or Harvard or Yale would be good models. 96.231.161.184 (talk) 02:43, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Grain/ corn in clause 28

I've let the edit stand because the translation makes sense either way, but Americans please be aware that British English routinely uses corn to mean any of a wide variety of grains. The Cambridge Dictionary (for example) says:

"corn: UK (the seeds of) plants, such as wheat, maize, oats and barley:a sheaf of corn; grains of corn"

Also see, for example, the Corn Laws. Corn to mean maize is American English, not British English. --Merlinme (talk) 08:31, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

The British Library translation (of their own copy), referenced in the article, translates "blada" as "corn". Bluewave (talk) 17:34, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cited Source?

I found this bit in the article:

There are some popular misconceptions about Magna Carta, such as that it was the first document to limit the power of an English king by law (it was not the first, and was partly based on the Charter of Liberties); that it in practice limited the power of the king (it mostly did not in the Middle Ages); and that it is a single static document (it is a variety of documents referred to under a common name).

How do we really know these things?--Padawan Animator (talk) 14:47, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Well- I suppose a source would be nice. But do you disagree with the statement? There does occasionally seem to be a bit of a "reference fetish" on Wikipedia, where even things which no-one would dispute have [citation needed] put on them. I'd have said the sentence is a reasonable summary of the popular perception of Magna Carta, i.e. that it was a document imposed on Bad King John to stop the (English) King being able to do what he wanted in the Middle Ages. --Merlinme (talk) 17:31, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

The sentence you refer to (was) in the Lead Section. It is supported with citations in the article. Looks like someone removed that sentence from the Lead Section. Sad. Lead Sections generally don't have citations, they are merely summaries of the article contents where all the nutty gritty citations are handled. 96.231.161.184 (talk) 02:26, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Copy under new ownership

David Rubenstein recently won one of the copies of the 1215 Magna Carta for more than $20 million during an auction. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.173.161.169 (talk) 04:31, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Terrorism Act 2006

Removed the following:

"Although the Magna Carta is on the statute books, the Terrorism Act 2006 passed in 2005, 2006, and more recently on 11th June 2008, has effectively ended the statute protecting the right of habeas corpus, the right of a citizen to be protected against arbitrary state action."

This does not to me appear to be NPOV as it's an opinion. If it's the view of the majority of the legal community I'd be happy to accept it but feel then it should have a reference. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dpmuk (talk • contribs) 15:52, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. It's a common trope among the opposition in the UK but I haven't seen any firm proof of it yet. Here are some editorials commenting on the topic:
  1. UK's Lord Nazir opposes 42-day detention proposal -- Lord Nazir arguing in Parliament that the 42-day limit "will inevitably demean the Habeas Corpus principles embedded within the Magna Carta"
  2. Rights are not a luxury -- left-leaning paperThe Guardian arguing that habeas corpus in England doesn't come from Magna Carta directly
  3. An assault on freedom -- The Guardian again, this time directly comparing the detentions with Magna Carta.
  4. You were right first time, Mr Howard -- Right-leaning paper The Telegraph: "t has been stirring to hear Magna Carta cited so often in the past week by opponents of the Bill, but it is worth recalling that there was no such thing as VX nerve gas or dirty bombs in 1215."

These last three are editorials. I haven't seen a non-opinion piece saying that the 42-day limit brings the Magna Carta rights to an end, so at the moment we should still call this assertion unsourced. --Stlemur (talk) 14:31, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Different Dates

Different Dates are listed in the intro and the 'still in force' as to the date of the version that's on the statute books, in the intro it's 1322, in that bit 1297 (I think) so inconsistency.81.157.89.241 (talk) 18:02, 13 June 2008 (UTC)