Talk:Magna Carta/Archive 1

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This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Where's the actual text?

Why isn't the actual text of the document included here? --205.181.102.108 14:47, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

For sale!

As of yesterday, Ross Perot's copy is for sale. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Emorycat (talk • contribs) 09:57, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Vicissitudes

The vicissitudes of Magna Carta during the Middle Ages need to be outlined. User:Wetman

Usage

I always hear "the" Magna Carta as well, and a quick Google search will show just how common it is to say/write "the Magna Carta". But someone here doesn't want to go through the trouble of getting in touch with the real world and keeps screwing with the intro. (unsigned by anon)

Anon, the "proper" version is factually correct. It is not a judgement, it is a statement of fact. Grammatically speaking, it is proper to not use "the" when using Latin phrases. "Proper" is a neutral factual statement of grammar. It is not original research, and is factually solid. If you want to discuss the grammatical use of "the" in Latin phrases in English, perhaps you should look at the English language article. Stbalbach 14:45, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

OK, let's try the Google test. Google shows 867,000 hits for "magna carta" and 182,000 for "the magna carta". To me, 867,000 - 182,000 = 685,000 references to MC without a definite article. That's 79%. Now where is that real world you were talking about? adamsan 14:30, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

Read the intro in it's current form. Go on, I'll wait. Ok then, that intro right there is all I've ever asked for. Kudos to the person who wrote it :) Whoever you are, you're beautiful and I wouldn't change you for the world! My God, I love Wikipedia! I love affecting change at a grassroots level! It just reeks of democracy in action, doesn't it?

Is it common to leave out the definite article? I always hear "the" Magna Carta. Is the definite article omitted in the UK but retained in the US? Jdavidb 13:59, 29 Jun 2004 (UTC)

As there's no definite article in Latin it isn't correct to speak of the Magna Carta, same with Mappa Mundi. It isn't always observed though and I don't think there's any formal trans-Atlantic difference as people in both countries will write it either way. adamsan 14:06, 29 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I'd like to see the article not use "the". It is just more professional. Editors over time have waffled back and forth on this, so I have put it as line #1 highlited. If anyone can think of a less intrusive, but equally clear method, please go ahead. Another option is to use comments in the markup.--Stbalbach 05:31, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I don't have an answer to your questions and points. All I know is that many professional institutions and authors don't use "the" when refering to Magna Carta. I suppose we could buck that trend, but then we are also not supposed to do original research, rather report on what the professionals say. Perhaps someone else can fill in the historiography of why this continues to be the standard in professional historical writing.Stbalbach 03:28, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Quite right. I do believe there are two distinct terms in the Magna Carta and Magna Carta and as you have pointed out, the one discussed in this Wiki-article is Magna Carta. I only wished to point out how it may not be stricly incorrect to use "the Magna Carta" since this term exists in the English language as well as in Latin. I deleted my previous arguments as they were overreaching and unfounded.dwee

"The Magna Carta" is certainly an acceptable use, and the use of 'the' is a matter of style and not substance. - Nunh-huh 11:35, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)

For this article, we have set a standard, in order to avoid edit wars, as have occured in the past, a matter of practicality. The precident is that most academic English history books dont use "the". If you want to create a footnote and expand on the issue that would make sense. Stbalbach 16:24, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I have no objection to either style, though the argument that it relates to whether Latin has a definite article is specious. One speaks of "The Aeneid" and "The Georgics". Just as a matter of curiousity, how did you quantitate that "most" academic English history books prefer their Magna Carta naked? - Nunh-huh 17:57, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)

From experience, the article needs to be clear and upfront on the format of the name used in the article to avoid edit wars. If we want to discuss the merits of either method I suggest we do so in the form a footnote to the opening message, since this seems to be a common point of discussion and might provide the reader some clarification. Stbalbach 23:05, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I hate to point this out, but in the note at the beginning, it states that "Magna Carta" is "usually" used without "the". This implies common use, which, in this case, is incorrect. Perhaps "properly" would be a better word.

What we absolutly need to say is "this article does not use the" so it may be better to say:

This article follows the usual academic style and refers to the the document as "Magna Carta" rather than "the Magna Carta."

with a footnote about definite articles in Latin and a brief review of examples. Intresting factoid (but not from a real academic English history book) -- Simon Schama uses "the Magna Carta" on page 141 of the first volume of "A History of Britain" and "Magna Carta" on page 142. Andreww 23:15, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

I agree, something like this would be better. I don't like the current "the document is properly referred to" sentence, mentioning Latin grammer right at the top. Although originating in Latin, the fact is that "Magna Carta" has entered the English language, and it is perfectly correct to say "the Magna Carta", just like it would be correct to say "the Act of Union", or "the Emancipation Proclamation". If we are going to use Magna Carta as a Latin word it should be italized, since this article is in English. So, anyway, I like the "usual academic style" sentence better, with a further section explaining in detail. Also, somewhere in the article it should be mentioned that it has also been called "Magna Charta" in the past.--JW1805 23:53, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, that's a good idea. Stbalbach 01:37, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

Should have said - I have been bold and implemented that suggestion. -- ALoan (Talk) 16:24, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

I added a "Usage and Spelling" section. --JW1805 20:46, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

Call this comment a strongly dissenting opinion to various posts of Stbalbac above. Common usage in American English is definitely "the Magna Carta," not "Magna Carta," and using the definite article is definitely the most common and natural way to translate a Latin noun. Brit English is more ready than Am English to drop definite articles, but I don't think that's the issue here. My main objection to calling it Magna Carta is that it just sounds wrong, in the same way it would sound wrong to drop the article from THE Gallic Wars and THE Aeneid. The counterargument as far as I can see is that calling it 'naked' Magna Carta has some kind of tradition (a valid argument). But to me, it's overly pedantic to maintain in the face of common usage and common sense. I suspect that people may be confused and worry they're wrongly adding an extra article as in (Greek), "The Hoi Polloi." That is not the case. Finally, I hope it's clear that the title of the entry should be Magna Carta, but the first sentence should begin "The Magna Carta et cetera.Lbsterling 22:44, 31 March 2007 (UTC)lbsterling.

How about using correct and consistent usage of keeping punctuation within quotation marks? It's more of a whole Wikipedia problem than just a Magna Carta problem, but I happen to be looking at this now and when I see one of "these", it makes the whole thing seem uneducated, or at best foreign. It should be "this," not "this". Things like "this", look stupid and make a whole article look similarly stupid. </rant> —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mukanil (talk • contribs) 17:05, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

"Only one to leave the UK"

The article mentions:

In 1984, Ross Perot bought one of the original copies of Magna Carta. This is the only copy to leave the United Kingdom.

But the article on Fort Knox, Kentucky mentions that it was the WW2 repository for among other, the Magna Carta. Anyone know of a better way to rephrase this, in the sense that the Perot copy is the only one to leave the UK permanently, or somesuch? —Gabbe 18:12, Aug 10, 2004 (UTC)

Actually, that whole statement is factually incorrect, as the Australian Parliament House also holds a copy - apparently one of four surviving copies of the 1297 issue; I assume the Perot one is another of the four. Also, as the Perot one is a copy of the 1297 issue, it's not "one of the original copies" See info: http://www.aph.gov.au/jhd/visiting/architect/build.htm http://www.aph.gov.au/Senate/pubs/occa_lect/flyers/171097.htm

I'll try to re-word it when I get a proper chance. Mistertim 00:16, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)

opening paragraph

For elements of style and readability I have trimmed back the opening paragraph. The opening paragraph should be a few sentences with a high-level overview introduction without getting in to specifics. It should not try to put the entire history with dates and names in to a few sentences in the opening paragraph. Instead, one could talk about the history in high-level general summary terms that a high-schooler could understand in a few sentence, for example "The Magna Carta was the result of a disagreements between a king and his barons over the rights of kingship" and then get in to the specifc names and dates in the main body of the article. Otherwise the rest of it is excellent. Stbalbach 18:11, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Sorry - should have replied before - I take the point and have incorporated the deleted facts (where necessary) elsewhere. -- ALoan (Talk) 11:45, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)

"long lasting"

Henry III rule was one of the longest lasting monarchies in english history. It is a significant point and helps illuminate the reason why it become "settled" .. just saying 56 years means little to someone without this background knowledge. It helps to clarify the point on why it was never contensted by future kings.Stbalbach 20:34, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Ah - I see: not that his rule was particularly peaceful, though - Simon de Montfort, the first Parliament, the Provisions of Oxford, the Second Barons' War, and all that. -- ALoan (Talk) 11:45, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Removed references to modern monarchs, not relevant to Magna Carta or the medieval period, could confuse the reader, interesting trivia none the less, might find a home under King of England. Emphasised the reason for MC becoming a settled law and not annulled by future monarchs -- since MC takes power away from the king, reader will ask why kings after Henry III did not annul it, like John had almost done in 1215. Used "almost three generations" to show the large passage of time that the reader can relate too personally and how much can happen over that amount of time (assume 20 years = 1 generation). Stbalbach 02:56, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Clause 61

In the "Runnymead and afterwards" section it's mentioned that Clause 61 was omitted in the reissued Magna Carta, but there is no explanation in the article of this clause or why its removal is significant. Looking at the text of the Magna Carta, it's not hard to believe that is *is* significant, but it was, erm, repealed. Can anyone with a better knowledge of British history explain why this ineffective clause is important, or shouldn't the reference to it be removed? -- jhf 16:36, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)

You're right, somehow missed that part.. totally changes the motivation of King John to go to war, important point.Stbalbach 19:37, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Magna Carta and Anti-Semitism

What is missing from this article is text showing that this a anti-semetic document! In the 1215 version (annulled by the Pope one month after it was signed), there is a long body of text concerning the Jews. By the time of the 1297 version this text had been removed. The reason is that the Jews had been kicked out of England in the meantime. In the 1215 version the Jews are addressed as moneychangers and as a sub-category of human beings who do not share the same status as human beings enjoying the blessings of the Pope. I have not inserted any of this material as yet because I would like to see reaction to my comments in the first place. I am also drawing the attention of user User talk:IZAK to this message, because I believe that it may be of interest to him. MPLX/MH 21:16, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)

It's not really that significant. It reflects prevailing standard medieval views towards Jews at the time. A more appropriate place to discuss this is in an article about Jews in the Middle Ages and then the Magna Carta article link to that article. You could not do the topic justice here. --Stbalbach 21:32, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I totally disagree. Magna Carta is held up to be this shining star as the foundation of human rights when in reality it is nothing of the sort. First of all the actual text needs to be posted in English so that everyone can read it and understand it. Second it needs to be plain that this document was annulled one month after it was signed. Third it also needs to reflect all of the other Magna Cartas that followed and why they were different. With regards to the Jewish issue I hold that this was the seed that gave rise to the Holocaust centuries later! To shove it aside as a non-issue is merely to keep up the propaganda. By the way, my hero is John Lilburne and yes, I was born in Britain and my parents were born in Britain and so were their parents and so on. I now live in the USA which has a written constitution. MPLX/MH 23:25, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I agree that there should be something said about the legislating against Jews in Magna Carta. The article as it stands has very little detail about the content of Magna Carta, and I feel that it would be appropriate to include this detail alongside others. For Jews, and especially English Jews, Magna Carta is very significant. Gareth Hughes 23:41, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Posting the full text is not appropriate for Wikipedia, it can be (and is) linked to though. A discussion of each clause as is done in US Constitution would be good but quite a task. I would prefer to see in depth coverage of the anti-semitic elements placed in a separate discussion of the phenomenon in mediaeval England (including Clifford's Tower for example which is also woefully under-recorded here). Frankly I'm not persuaded by this talk of MC leading to the Holocaust though. adamsan 23:56, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I agree with your suggestion of disecting this document because that is the only way to expose the fraud that it is. As for one thing not leading to another, well, that may be because the writings of Magna Carta have not been compared to the Nazi race laws. A case is to be made for that comparison. If it can be shown that the Nazi race laws had nothing to do with the Holocaust (because that came later), well I suppose that case could be made for Magna Carta. However, I believe that once this document is exposed in English that many people will be quite horrified to see what they have been upholding. One thing that it is not is the foundation of individual freedom. One thing that it is - is anti-semitic. You may have a point regarding Clifford's Tower because that does seem to be a part of this entire nasty package. MPLX/MH 01:15, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Magna Carta is not the shineing star of human rights and individual freedom you make it out to be. Youve kind of proped it up on this pedastal to create a controversy. I mean, if the article took that tone I would agree with you, but it doesn't. At the time, clause 39 was meant to only address some very specific abuses by King John and no one really saw it as being that significant. The stuff about jews is indeed significant, but only in relation to jewish relations in medieval england, and that discussion belongs in a seperate article. --Stbalbach 03:43, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Something is wrong with this picture. I do not believe that Magna Carta is the shining star foundation of human rights, but there are a lot of educational and legal sources that portray it that way. I am therefore opposed to this traditional interpretation. I am also opposed to hiding its text and discussing it in selected parts. The 1215 document was annulled by the Pope, one month after it was signed. That is important. What is also important is why this document was drawn up and what the Pope had to do with it. When you understand the part played by religion you also understand the plight of the Jews. To sweep the Jews aside to be discussed somewhere else smacks of the very anti-semitism that I am trying to discuss because this document and the Magna Carta of 1297 had a direct cause and effect on the Nazi race laws which in turn led to the Holocaust. In other words, to recoin a phrase: "the buck starts here!"MPLX/MH 04:30, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I agree that the annulment by the Pope is significant; though if the really anti-semitic clauses only survived in the version of MC that lasted for a month before being expunged in later editions, how much later influence could they be said to have had? Even finding the relevant text online is proving a challenge for me. I also agree that the reasons for the passages' removal also need to be explored. This sort of thing is directly related to the document itself whilst anti-Semitism in 13th century England seems to me a better home for commentary on the underlying reasons for the offending text to have been included and then removed. For example, later editions limit mention of the Jews to moneylending which I understand was one of the few professions open to them in mediaeval Europe due to the guild system and its links with the Church and not anything to do with MC. Anti-Jewish sentiment in England certainly predates Magna Carta, as the Cliffords Tower article demonstrates. Certainly the moneylending and the removed passages represent a general anti-semitism in English society (or at least amongst the the English church and aristocracy) but due to the brevity of their insertion and the use of 'Jew' seeming to me more like a contemporary synonym for 'moneylender' rather than an intentional ethnic discernment, I am not yet convinced there is any specific reason to explore the document's role in wider anti-semitism in any form other than a sentence or two linking to a wider discussion of the subject. I do not wish to ignore the anti-Jewish sentiment in the England of the period and in fact would argue that giving it its own article provides a much better opportunity to discuss the issue. adamsan 09:29, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The Magna Carta of 1215 and the Magna Carta of 1297 are linked in context (there were bridge documents in between.) The version of 1297 makes no mention of the Jews for reason that like the Nazi race laws, the Jews were either out of England or in hiding! In Nazi Germany the Jews did not exist, in theory, when in reality some Jews were in hiding. I will see what I can do to find the English version of the texts. The reason why I know all of this stuff is because I joined with others and protested the American Express USA tour of the 1215 Magna Carta in 1987, which resulted in a front page color section article in the 'The Daily Progress', Charlottsvile, Virginia and on its NBC-TV affiliated station. MPLX/MH 21:28, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

That there is a protest movement against Magna Carta is notable. On the issues of the protest movement and its history and origins and people involved and activities, would make a good article. Stbalbach 22:17, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I still don't understand the repeated mentioning of Nazi race laws, it has been stated the Magna Carta was responsible but I don't see any explanation and it seems quite frankly ridiculous. Please expand I am interested in how you see the link? The Magna Carta is celebrated as the first step in moving power from the crown, if only as far as some noblemen. It is the first step on the gradual progress of power towards a full democracy, and the universal emancipation only achieved within the last century. Noone sets in on a pedastal as something we should use now, or takes any reference from the very rare original copies including specific anti-semtism. I understand your concerns I think it should be mentioned in the article but taken in the wider context of general anti-semitic attitude in Europe at the time and not blaming it for the entire future of anti-semitism.Jameskeates 09:51, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Wow this is a nearly 2 year old conversation. But if you read this thread, MPLX/MH said he read a book that made the connection. I agree with your conclusion and I think the article currently reflects that. -- Stbalbach 14:20, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

MPLX - just a few points. 1) Pope's opinion was NOT the law in Enland. In fact English sovriegns often ignored the Pope's edicts (as did the Holy Roman Emperor and many others). Don't you think the Celts, Romans, Saxons, Normans had laws - long before the Popes got involved? 2) The Jewish religion is NOT the oldest religion. Cave painting (believed to have some kind of animist significance) have been carbon dated back 60000 yrs. Relgious artices from the Vedic culture in Northern India date back c8500 yrs, around the same time Shen Culture in Northern China also were producing artices believed to be of a relgious nature. The earliest sign of Jewish relgious culture dates back to the mid 10th Century BCE, some two hundred years after the collapse of Mycenean culture or some four hundred years after the relgious conversion of the Pharoh Arkarnen. Hope that clears up that furphy 58.165.128.101 Jim Jacobs

Research on Jews

In regards to this text:

The version of 1297 contains no mention of the Jews, who are discussed in terms of being moneychangers in the 1215 version, because the Jews had either been forced to flee the island nation, or they had converted to Christianity or they had gone underground.

I would like to see sources that can back this up, on why Jews were not mentioned in later versions and why the offending text was removed. Refrences to books (in the mainstream historical community) is fine. --Stbalbach 08:53, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)

It seems that the whole of both clauses concerning debt rather than just the mentions of Judaism were removed in the 1297 version. As one of the clauses refers to all creditors and not just the Jews, I can't see how you can conclude that the passages were deleted simply because the Jews had been driven out/underground. They didn't just do a find and replace but removed the whole text which covers a number of issues. The reasons for this need to be discussed. Also, I still cannot find this long passage of anti-semitic text that MPX talks about anywhere. I still think the mentions of Jews that I can find are contemporary synonyms for moneylender and I think we're incorrectly interpreting the language used 800 years ago in terms of modern thinking. adamsan 09:08, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Check Wikisource Latin, section 10 and 11, it says "Judeis". Beyond that I don't speak Latin, but a good sign that the word Jew was used in the original document.

I agree the section removed in later versions covered multiple issues, attributing its removal only to the Jews expulsion is questionable. --Stbalbach 09:28, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Sure, there are two mentions of Jews as moneylenders in every version of the 1215 text I can find but MPX talks of Jews being referred to as "a sub-category of human beings who do not share the same status as human beings enjoying the blessings of the Pope". I inferred this to mean that there were other passages now missing which are much more anti-semitic and it's these I'd like to see evidence of. adamsan 09:41, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I am pleased that others have joined this enquiry but I am already dismayed to find that someone has found it necessary to sweep the "Jewish Question" under the carpet when reference on this Talk page had already been made to one incident involving a "Final Solution" of the Jews in England. I like those terms because they shock the conscience in that everyone knows what those terms mean with regards to Germany in the 1930s and 1940s. It was the passage of the so-called "Race laws" of the 30s that led to the Holocaust of the 40s - there was a cause and effect.

Now with that preface out of the way I am stating that the 1215 Magna Carta contains the smoking gun of England's own move to rid the Isles of the Jews. This is not hidden history but well documented history. It is just not talked about because the English (I am English) don't want to be thought of as being antisemitic, but English history reeks of antisemitism.

What is not being addressed here (and even less now that someone has added the censor's touch), is that the Pope of Rome (there were other Popes), controlled England through his king; church and law (there was no secular law as such that was not santioned by the Church and the Church was the one Church based in Rome. I hope everyone knows about Henry VIII so that I don't have to explain that as well.)

So the Jews were moneychangers. Why were they moneychangers? Go and do your own research! You need to know. The Jews had a moneychanger relationship with the Church and that is why the clause is in there: the Jews were (are) not Christians (duh!) - not members of the Church of Rome. The Pope gave them special status. The representative for all of the wheeler-dealing was the Archbishop. The barons were merely local gangsters, or in today's understanding = warlords (thugs.)

The statements about the Jews in Magna Carta was not intended to educate readers as to who the Jews were - everyone knew who the Jews were. They were the People of the blood libel ("they killed Jesus"). The Church whose Jesus the Jews killed put up with them like the Nazis used Jews when it suited them and some Jews (a few) went along with the Nazis to save themselves at the expense of the majority of Jews. This is the thorny issue we are dealing with. Under English law the Jews were forbidden to do practically anything else but be moneychangers! They were the scum of society and the Church had a need for a sub-class of human beings. The Jews did not have the same status as everyone else and the Jews were murdered and abused. Because of the holier than thou attitude towards ethnic cleansing in the world today, the English do not want to admit that they were at it long before Herr Hitler got into the business!

Now move along to 1297 and "bingo!" = no Jews. Why? Because they were kicked out of England, forced to go underground or convert. Same thing happened in Spain. (Hello, isn't that what happened in Nazi Germany?) It was not until the time of Cromwell - long after Henry VIII told the Pope bye, bye and long after Shakespeare wrote his own infamous words about a moneylending Jew that Cromwell talked about religious tolleration. Why? Because Cromwell ruled the English Republic which had severed its relationship with the Church by chopping off the head of the king; abolishing the House of Lords and raiding all of the Church properties to put them out of business. Then the forces of the Republic went to Ireland and engaged in "ethnic cleansing" by wholesale murder and mayhem.

Read your history. Move up to the time of 18th Century and read about the status of Jews in Parliament (how and when they were finally allowed to sit in Parliament.)

The bottom line. The Magna Carta of 1215 needs to be explained: who wrote it and why and what it says and why. What we have here on Wiki right now is pure boring propaganda that explains nothing. But by looking at the clauses dealing with the Jews you can see that while the English may get on their high horses and yell about the evil Germans (remember the UK Royals are German are hiding under another name since WWI), then it is possible to gulp and say "me too" (in English) and understand that evil knows no race or religion. MPLX/MH 16:12, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)

So are the moneylending clauses the only ones in MC which ever mentioned the Jews? Am I correct with the following broad chronology?

Jews come to Britain with the Normans 1066
Jews forced by law to be moneylenders due to institutionalised racism in the Church and effectively become the king's chattels
Jews are persecuted by people who owe them money, the Church or people who just don't like them
Magna Carta includes clauses that mention Jewish moneylenders 1215
Jews still persecuted by their debtors, the Church or people who just don't like them
Edward I enacts papal legislation forbidding the Jews to lend money 1275
Jews expelled from England 1290 as they were of no use to the Crown without their loans

I note that History_of_the_Jews_in_England pays little heed to MC's role in English anti-semitism and from the above sequence I cannot see how the document did anything to worsen their lot especially when compared with everything else they were going through. As far as I can tell the clauses in MC were included because the King gained considerable income from the interest in the Jews' loans and the Barons wished to limit him claiming interest on a dead man's loan before his heir reached maturity. Much of the material you have added is duplicated from History_of_the_Jews_in_England and frankly I think it is more relevant there than here. The Jews did not come to Britain because of MC, they were denied some income by MC due to their closeness to the monarch but if anything I think MC further legitimised the Jews' presence in England. They were not persecuted because of MC and the persecution that took place in the decades afterwards is not connected with MC. The Jews were eventually driven out as the result of a Papal initiative and we all know the Popes didn't like Magna Carta. They therefore didn't leave England due to it either.

The article is not boring propaganda, it is a piece focused on the document itself rather than the wider social milieu. Furthermore I am still unpersuaded that it is sufficiently anti-semitic to require a wide ranging discussion spanning a thousand years of English history. If the editors of History of the Jews in England article didn't think it was worth more than a brief sentence (and I think we would all welcome their opinions on this subject) then why should we include one here? adamsan 19:41, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Adamsan, I also noted that other articles, writen by experts in their field, make only minor passing mention of Magna Carta, and only in relation to usuary. Stbalbach 21:42, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)

"Jews are People too", etc.

What is being missed here is that the Jews are first of all a religion. Because the religion also determines marriage, etc., a People was formed, but not a People in the sense of an actual biological racial makeup any more than let's say, the Amish are a People but not a race, yet their religion and marriages have obviously contained certains strengths and certain weaknesses within their biological makeup that create the ambiguity of an actual race.

Now with all of that said and done let us look at what is going on here with Magna Carta and the Jews:

It is not that The Church (one main body at that time) did not like the Jews - it hated the Jews and the Pope hung them out to dry for killing Jesus for all time and said so quite plainly. It was an all time curse that modern Popes have tried to wiggle around and finally ended up by saying "sorry, we were wrong." But that took centuries and in the meantime a lot of Jews were abused, butchered and killed. So let us move on from giving the impression of "I like purple but not orange". This was ethnic hate at work against the Jews in the name of the Christian religion preaching "love".

Now we come to the question of who King John was. He was number two to the Pope. What the Pope said was the final word on everything. So here were some warlords (classified as barons) who wanted a bit of the action from the King. Their problem was that the King had nothing to give. All power ultimately belonged to the Pope. This was the reason why Henry VIII finally broke with Rome centuries later.

So when the warlords pushed the King to sign Magna Carta, the Pope was the one to speak up about his authority being trampled upon. The Pope then annulled Magna Carta.

The ONLY reason why the text about the Jews is in Magna Carta is to reflect that the Jews were considered to be sub-human. If not sub-human then what? Thomas Jefferson said that the Africans in America were sub-human. This is the same old business of ethnic and racial hate at work. In the USA this led to Civil War. In the time of King John and onwards up until 1297 it led to the murder of Jews and their being kicked out of England.

These are the real messages of Magna Carta. For someone to ask "is that all there is?" is like someone looking at the Nazi Race Laws and then the Holocaust and asking the same thing. Easy to do if you are not a Jew! Magna Carta was an early version of the Nazi Race Laws and 1297 was an early version of the Holocaust.

Of course, if you are a Christian who takes pride in English history this will be too much to stomach, a kind of "I'm all right, Jack!" mentality. But if you are a Jew who also lives in England looking back at your own history you can do nothing but cringe when it comes time to study Magna Carta.

There is a knock-on cause and effect going on here and because the phrase "never again!" keeps falling on deaf ears, generation after generation, ethnic cleansing after ethnic cleansing, it is time to lay out the cards and to tell the truth about history which can sometimes be misused for evil purposes. Magna Carta has been used for some very evil purposes indeed. MPLX/MH 22:45, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)

What evil, anti-semitic purposes has Magna Carta been used for? We have already established that the Jews were expelled from England due to legislation from the very same office which annulled Magna Carta and you agree above that much of the earlier persecution of the Jews was also initiated and prosecuted by the Church. I am still not persuaded that this document influenced mediaeval and later anti-semitism just because it mentions Jews as moneylenders. You infer that this mention treats them as sub-human; I think it reflects their role as de facto Crown servants who were synonymous with usury because it was the only profession open to them. It also reflects that the Barons were concerned about them because they were forced to pay a tithe of their loan interest income to the King whose power the Barons wanted to stem. Yes the Jews had a horrible time in mediaeval England, indeed all over Europe, but to compare passing mentions to Jews in Magna Carta to Hitler's race laws is overstating the case. adamsan 00:52, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Adamsans comments I agree with. I disagree with MPLX's research conclusions. It is certainly interesting and original, but not how most scholars of the Middle Ages see things. It is an over-emphesis on the relationship between Pope and King, as if the King was ruled by the Pope, which was not the case. The story of the middle ages is the story of disputes and disagreements between the church and secular rulers; Kings were not ruled by the Pope, and what the Pope said was not the law of the land. See the Investiture controversy for the most famous example, indeed the Holy Roman Emperor (a secular King) was the one who appointed the Pope! John himself was excommunicated and the entire country of England was under interdict for seven years until 1213 because John was embroiled in a dispute over the appointment of the office of Archbishop of Canterbury, which John was not willing to budge on. The Pope held power over the King only in the sense that the Pope could excommunicate and place interdicts, and even then, only done on religious disagreements, not secular ones, and only in the most extreme cases, a sort of nuclear bomb weapon the church used sparingly. This strategy sometimes backfired against the Pope when secular kings would invade Italy and sack Rome and try to kill the Pope! (see Investiture). Sometimes, anti-Popes were created. Anyway, you get the idea.

As for the church "hateing Jews", that is a modern POV interpretation. The Middle Ages was an age of faith, when everyone believed in the same thing: you do penance on earth for your sins so that you would go to paradise in the afterlife -- anyone who didn't believe that was an afront to your beliefs, an afront to your very existence and your reason for being, it challenged your very existence. Jews, Muslims and any other non-Christain was therefore not looked on kindly and was seen as somthing that either had to be barely tolerated (in the case of Jews tolerated because of usuary), or killed off (see Crusades). Perhaps a modern comparison is the belief system of some current day radical Islamisists (and even some modern Christains). To say it was "antisemetic" is attaching modern values to a world much diffrent than our own current very secular age. Back then, Europeans were "anti-everyone" that was not Christain, and indeed often anti-Christain as well, if they were not French, German, Italian or English (nearly as many Christains were killed in the First Crusade as non-believers). --Stbalbach 01:35, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Permit me to redirect this discussion back to the left hand side and deal with both sets of answers at the same time (otherwise this will become very difficult to keep up with. I will also add a new break below at the same time for ease of reference. MPLX/MH 05:27, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)

In reply to Adamsan and Stbalbach

Adamsan: What evil ... We have already established ... I am still not persuaded ... just because it mentions Jews as moneylenders. ==== That is the evil. That is the antisemitism. The Jews were not treated as ordinary human beings anymore than the African slaves were treated as human beings in America. The fact that this is enshrined in Magna Carta is of extreme importance because it is a record of this this hate and abuse of Jews.
You infer ... I think it reflects their role as de facto Crown servants who were synonymous with usury because it was the only profession open to them. ==== That statement is too much to swallow. They were not "Crown servants", they were the property of the Pope who entrusted them to his King. That makes them slaves.
Yes the Jews had a horrible time in mediaeval England, indeed all over Europe, but to compare passing mentions to Jews in Magna Carta to Hitler's race laws is overstating the case. ==== Overstating it due to the numbers butchered and killed? I am sure that the Jews in Nazi Germany "had a horrible time" as well. How much horror do you need to formulate a revulsion against hate mongers and butchers of human beings?

Stbalbach: I disagree with MPLX's research conclusions. It is certainly interesting and original, but not how most scholars of the Middle Ages see things. ==== Pardon me for asking, but are these independent Jewish scholars who also have a knowledge of the Holocaust? Or are we talking about Christian scholars who see Jews in a different light?
Kings were not ruled by the Pope, and what the Pope said was not the law of the land. ==== That's funny because until history matured the only law was the law of the Church and the law of the Church came from the word of the Pope, hence Magna Carta was annulled by the Pope one month after it was signed under duress by the King. The barons would today be called warlords. Let us be very plain about what we are dealing with here. We are also dealing with England which did not break with Rome until the time of Henry VIII.
See the Investiture controversy ... ==== We are getting way off topic. We are dealing with England, King John and the Jews.
As for the church "hateing Jews", that is a modern POV interpretation. ==== No its not, the Pope and the Church and the history of the so-called "Blood Libel" is proof of this hate. What is going on here is a form of denial and revisionist history attempting to bury the past and say that it was not that bad. It was that bad and if this lot had Hitler's death camps and gas chambers they would have used them! Himmler was also motivated by a crazy religious idea that fueled his hate for the Jews. Hate is not POV - hate is hate and murder is murder.
The Middle Ages was an age of faith ... ==== The Middle Ages were the dark ages of hate and now you are drawing a link between crazy religious killers of today and crazy religious killers of yesterday and I am getting the impression that you are telling me that I have to understand these crazy religious killers. Please do not go down that path.
Back then, Europeans were "anti-everyone" that was not Christain, and indeed often anti-Christain as well, if they were not French, German, Italian or English (nearly as many Christains were killed in the First Crusade as non-believers). ==== Well that is about the best "politically correct spin" that I have read in reply so far. But back to the subject at hand which is this antisemitic Magna Carta and the sub-human Jews that it is addressing. I do not believe that any spin can be put on the words of Magna Carta that will make its meaning and intent "understandable" so long as we still hold that hating and dispising and murdering classes of human being is wrong for which there is no excuse at all. MPLX/MH 05:27, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)

MPLX/MH raises some important and interesting issues, though I wonder at his conclusion that MC was the seed for Nazi atrocities. Not least because anti-Semitism was not confined to England between the 13th and 20th centuries, but was widespread through Europe at various times in this period. As to his point that Jews were seen as non-humans, it is worth remembering that the vast majority of the population were seen like this by the ruling class. The typical Englishman/women lived a life of bonded labour who needed permission from his Lord to travel, marry or learn a skill beyond basic labouring. Nor was religious hatred reserved for Jews, English history is littered with persecutions of Catholics and Protestants. I doubt that a Muslim (Moor) would have been welcome in the 13th century, either. Markb 11:34, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

Middle Ages the dark age of hate ? Get real. If one period in human history deserves such a name, it is the 20th century.

Opening paragraph

Per the Wikipedia rules of style, the opening paragraph is a high level overview of what is contained in the article, short brief bullet points. The issue of the Jews and Magna Carta is not to overshadow the primary reason Magna Carta is seen as significant. Wikipedia is not a forum for changeing mainstream views.

The header title for the Jews is called the same thing that the Jewish history article is called "..the Jews in England". This is a very clear NPOV title and an acceptable one by precedent. Stbalbach 21:36, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)

RFC?

Should we RFC this? I think a topic like anti-semitism and Magna Carta would be better discussed by the wider community rather than just us three. adamsan 23:23, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Not yet. I (and lots of others, I am sure) am lurking too. -- ALoan (Talk) 23:44, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The latest revision of the article by Stbalbach is to be commended. It is clear and concise, and in good prose. Before this the article was looking as ragged as some copies of Magna Carta. In principle, a Wikipedia article on Magna Carta should cover all the essential details, and it is good to have what it says about Jews in England noted and explained. However, Magna Carta touches on many different subjects, and it is right that this one have its own section in the article. What Magna Carta has to say about Jews, I believe, should not be in the opening paragraph, which, as has been said, should just tell us what Magna Carta is, saving the detail. It would be sad to see this article run ragged again. I have not edited the article, but support the balanced inclusion of this material.

Gareth Hughes 13:24, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Just an outsider's opinion, but I have to take issue with MPLX's drive to push the issue of Jews to the fore. If we are going to concede as he does that Magna Carta heavily influenced more contemporous European thought (e.g. on Jews in Nazi Germany) then surely its popular, though inaccurate, interpretation as a forerunner to human rights cannot simply be interpreted as a myth necessary of dispelling. Rather it would work to counter the repression of Jews rather than legitimize it, as the clauses that specifically refer to them are not nearly so well known as those that limit the powers of the ruling classes. Personally I feel the "Jewish question" here was not a primary factor in its creation or application. Indeed in the attempts of this article to dispell the myths surrounding Magna Carta, I would say that its symbolic power is underplayed. Philip Thomas --82.38.224.3 15:23, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Since no one is an "outsider" on Wikipedia your views are just as welcome as everyone else. So welcome and please remain engaged. Now as to the points that you raised let us reexamine the facts: a) Magna Carta was the work of the Archbishop representing the Pope who annulled it because "his vassal king" was forced to sign it under duress which was then an afront to the authority of the Pope. b) the "Jewish issue" was a Pope-created issue that fed on what has been dubbed "antisemitism" (which takes many forms and that word is a problem because it refers to linguistics, not religion.) c) The actions taken between 1215 and 1297 to classify Jews as a sub-human group have a direct impact on what happened centuries later in Nazi Germany with the passage of its so-called race laws. English antisemitism is something that the English don't want to discuss (and I am English, by the way!) d) Centuries after 1215, Magna Carta was manufactured into having an importance that it does not deserve. If the claims made for it were true, then the 1776 War of Independence would have been unnecessary because the Americans would already have had the rights that they declared. MPLX/MH 18:29, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I would like to add a voice of support to Philip Thomas in this issue. I was suprised to find this article lacking in much historical analysis it could have (though I'm not complaining, Wikipedia is not really for that kind of thing) yet a huge proportion of the text is dedicated to this issue concerning anti-semitism. If this is an 'anti-semetic document' then surely the entire span of medieval history is just as anti-semetic! By the logic displayed by all this polemicising, a childrens history book should be prefaced specifically concerning anti-semitism in volume equal to the content itself! As a history student I often get stalked by revisionst pseudo-historical websites and it always confused me as to why there were so many. I think this kind of thing may be part of the reason. People could easily get the impression that this article has been hijacked and there we have the roots of revisionism. I'm not saying that I consider this to be a hijacking, I'm just pointing out that in terms of content, this impression can be easily gained. Neither am I saying that this is not an issue. However, this kind of thing can surely get out of hand. I understand that my comments will generate immediate condemnation from people discussing this here but nonetheless, I think we have to talk straight about these things. It is important that we never forget, however, this should not mean that simply because Magna Carta displayed an unfortunately common medieval disposition it should be known more for its anti-semitism than its contextual historical importance. (signed by anonymous)

Your absolutely right, Wikipedia, and the web, and TV, etc.. is a breeding ground for those who wish to "revise" the mainstream views. So much so, one has trouble finding out what the real mainstream view is (not the high school view, but what youd learn at say, Harvard of Oxford). The reason for this, I believe, is because those who are traditionally on the "outside", who are amateur historians, or who represent minority interests, or women perhaps, or anyone that is disadvantaged by the mainstream history profression, have nothing to loose by using these alternative media formats to "revise". And, sometimes these views do in fact eventually enter the mainstream, but most often they remain "in the wilderness" and always on the fringe and controversial. As for the incredible detail about the Jewish issue, we have no choice if an editor wants to go into such detail its the rules of the game, but it really does throw off the balance of the article and distort things since that level of detail is not done for other parts. Its like a funhouse mirror, the arm gets distored while the rest of the body remains normal. Stbalbach 23:03, 10 May 2005 (UTC)

Lackland

Sorry to interrupt the, um, lively discussion here, but I couldn't help noticing that this page and King John give conflicting explanations of the nickname "Lackland". The Magna Carta page states that he acquired it by losing land in France, while the King John page states that he was called Lackland because his father wouldn't give him land in inheritance. The latter is what I've always understood to be the case, and it makes more sense linguistically, but I am not an expert in this area and I have to admit that my main source is Sharon Kay Penman. Does anyone know the history of the nickname and which version (if either) is more correct?

I've run in to the origin of this a few times in my readings and it has always been in relation to his loss of lands in France. That is the first I heard it was otherwise, although it's certainly possible both could be accurate, with the former being a childhood knickname which was bolstered by the events in France. Nicknames in England were usually assigned by popular percption which is why you have names like "William Rufus" (William II), "Henry Courtmantle" (Henry II) and "John Lackland." Stbalbach 22:39, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I agree with the first person to question the background of the nickname. John was the 4th son and was not given any land by his father at first (later we was made Lord of Ireland). Most history books this is stated. I'll try to look at some sources about this. --Scafloc 16:08, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I'm certainly no expert either, but every reference I found cited the lack of inherited land as the reason for the nickname, and I went ahead and made an edit to reflect that. --Crispyinstilly 20:20, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Popular culture

I've removed the reference to the Simpsons song; ignoring the copyvio aspects (it's probably fair use) it doesn't seem to be either particularly notable, nor does it add much to the article. And as for "a perfect summary"... I have my doubts. [1] might be a more appropriate summary, but again it probably doesn't need included. Shimgray 17:34, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

minor edit

i have edited the sentence.

Henry III's son and heir Edward I's Parliament reissued Magna Carta for the final time on 12 October 1297 as part of a statue known as Confirmatio cartarum (25 Edw. I), reconfirming Henry III's shorter version of Magna Carta from 1225.

my bold

to:

Henry III's son and heir Edward I's Parliament reissued Magna Carta for the final time on 12 October 1297 as part of a statute known as Confirmatio cartarum (25 Edw. I), reconfirming Henry III's shorter version of Magna Carta from 1225.

clearly confirmatio cartarum was a statute in law rather than a statue.

You don't need to describe every edit you make on the page's discussion. You should only do that if there's a chance someone else might disagree or if you think your new information should be called to attention. VolatileChemical 19:06, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Habeas corpus

I think that the principle established in the article 39 is not called habeas corpus. Habeas corpus is about the legality of imprisonment, article 39 is about just trial. I've changed the text to remove the habeas corpus reference.

Actually that was the problem, John was holding people captive for no good reason, other than for ransom money or to force his will on relatives or whatever. That was the motivation for the clause. I don t know the legal history of habeas corpus to comment on its application here, but I do know that is the history of why the clause was written, specific incidents and actions on Johns part. Stbalbach 03:57, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)

British Constitution?

The current version refers to Magna Carta as "a cornerstone for the future British Constitution". I thought there was no such thing as "the British Constitution" at least not in the sense that "Constitution" is understood in most countries, i.e. as a specific document. Perhaps some more informal sense is intended. Could someone explain?

Crust 13:48, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The British Constitution is seen as being made up of

a) a large number of individual documents, of which Magna Carta is the oldest

b) constitutional conventions, which are practices that are sufficiently well-accepted to have the force of law despite being uncodified - things like the understanding that the monarch will not refuse the Royal Assent to laws passed by Parliament.

As such - no, there's no single document, nor is there generally held to be "a Constitution" as a single item. They have the force of constitutional law, but Magna Carta simply has the status of a law. Does that make any sense? Shimgray 13:58, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Historical Documents of the USA

Since Magna Carta is not a historical document of the USA, and since many countries can make claims to Magna Cartas influence, am I the only one who is a bit uneasy with this template being used in an international forum? If this was the "Wikipedia of the USA" that would be one thing. Stbalbach 21:34, 2 August 2005 (UTC)

I appreciate many nations see Magna Carta as an important document and also that the editor was polite enough not to emblazon the template right at the top of the page. At the same time, could not The Bible also be listed as an important US historical document under the same loose criteria as MC? Perhaps someone could whip up a template of Important Documents of the English-speaking nations and list MC in that rather than in the US template. And then make another template covering its importance to the Jews of course... adamsan 21:47, 2 August 2005 (UTC)

I'm the one who made the template, and I wasn't sure about whether to put Magna Carta on it or not. It isn't technically a US document, of course. However, it is considered to have been a great influence on American law (there is even a mention on the Constitution of the United States article. Comments are welcome over at the Template:US Historical Document talk page about what should be listed in this template. Maybe I can put a divider and list MC as an influential non-American document. Actually, you have a good idea about an "English-speaking" documents template, I may try to work on that too.--JW1805 00:56, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

Is there such a thing as 'American Law'? I can see how the USA and Canada's legal system may have a common root, but I'm not so sure about the rest of America. Do the legal systems of Mexico, Brazil, Peru etc share a common frame work with the systems of Spain and Portugal, and do this counties' legal systems make any reference to Magna Carta (whichever version you choose)? Markb 11:08, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

Also, note that technically, the Mayflower Compact is an English document, written entirely by "loyal subjects of our dread sovereigne Lord, King James". So the line can be a bit fuzzy.--JW1805 01:25, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

IMO there is only so much space for templates, and they are burdensome on system resources, these things are better handled as Categories, which were designed for this purpose. Categories are scalable allowing anyone to create categories of articles, theres no limit to Category creation, and no limit to the number of articles which can be included. Templates are limited to only a few per article, and whose to say which is the best way to organize it. They work best as navigation aids when there is a clear exisitng structure and article series. Just creating templates of articles that can be lumped together is potentially endless. Perhaps Magna Carta should also have a template on Jews in England, or English Rebellions, or etc.. you see how its an endless slope. Use categories. Stbalbach 02:54, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

I realize I am coming late in this conversation, but it does have the force of law in Maryland, and probably other states as well. -James Howard (talk/web) 16:22, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

I agree with the first statement. The details of the Maryland Constitution should be removed. It does not add to the significance of Magna Carta.

restore original version

There has been an almost complete replacement of the text with an entirely new version about 3 times as long. The old version has been the result of dozens of wikipedians original work over the course of years and it was deleted outright with no discussion. It was concise, well written and easy to understand, although certainly open to change. The new version may be a copyvio. athough I can't find any source online. It reads like an essay and makes appeals to a hidden authority or single voice, taken out of context of where it came from originally. I would ask that a proposed new version be put up on a temp page somewhere and let people look at it and comment and find some way to be integrated before making this massive change to the article. I found the new version difficult to understand due to the high level of details its fairly complex and advanced for a general purpose encyclopedia. -- Stbalbach 22:31, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

From the text:

The first clause of the Magna Carta (the original 1215 edition, which will be used as the reference throughout this dissertation).

It appears to be someones school dissertation cut and paste into the article. Its copyright status and authorship are unknown, obviously not original to Wikipedia. -- Stbalbach 22:47, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Edit of Magna Carta

I apologise for breaking any etiquette I may have done by editing Magna Carta Page, it was not my intention.

My reasons for editing the page was that it ignores nearly a millennium of the development of Magna Carta after its conception, Magna Carta was vital in the development of both the English Constitution and in the development of Parliamentary Sovereignty.

I also feel the entry massively over-exaggerates the power of the monarch pre-charter. The Kings of the time were far from absolute monarchs. Firstly England was pat of Christendom at the time, and therefore the King was subservient to the pope (in fact at the time of the charter the king was the pope's vassal and rented England and Ireland from the pope as a fiefdom). Not only this but the concept of monarch by consent was very much in force at this time, in the English Constitutional Law of the time (and as now) the monarch was only such with the consent of the people. Therefore the charter was not a liberation of the people from the absolute king.

Also, the influence on the American constitutions has been over-emphasised, it is important to note that all common law constitutions (if not all constitutions) have been heavily influenced by the charter; America is NOT the only country on this planet.

Finally, and most fundamentally, the charter seems to have been completely misinterpreted. It was not one document, but a development over a number of decades forming one charter, the 1215 charter is not to be ignored, but it is vital not to treat it as THE Magna Carta. Most importantly it ignore the fact that the ‘trial by peers’ the charter refers to has nothing to do with the modern concept of trial by jury or magistrate, or even due process. It refers to the right (which still remains) of the nobility to have a trial of first instance in the House of Lords. Commoners would have had no advantage whatsoever from this provision. Whilst it may have influenced later rights to this effect the importance of the charter is not the content of it but the effect it was granted over the following 600 years. For this point to be made properly it is important to go into depth over the effect it had in those centuries.

800 years of English constitutional law, arguably the most important document in the world cannot be condensed into such a small article. Conciseness insinuates all relevant facts are included. -- —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Neiljamesking (talk • contribs) .

Ok agreed. I guess my concern is it's evident this was not written for wikipedia, but is extracted from a dissertation. Who wrote the dissertation and who owns it? There are copyright issues. Wikipedia has a problem with copyright violations. The second thing is, it also reads like a dissertation - dissertations are more than encyclopedia articles, they argue for and arrive at conclusions, they are POV. -- Stbalbach 23:39, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Its mine, the copyright is mine provided i use it only in an academic manner (I wrote it for my undergrad law degree which included copyright law) although I did edit it (the original was about 4 times as long). Now I understand the situation, prehaps if i re-edit and remove anything opinionate and add it here for comments first? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Neiljamesking (talk • contribs) .

Ok, just keep in mind once its on Wikipedia, its released under the GFDL, and theoretically could be published for money (a DVD sold of Wikipedia content). Yes it would be great to incorporate it, feel free to edit directly in the article, but if you can find some way to incorporate what's already there, assuming it's not a repeat, it was a bit of a shock to see %90 of it deleted, your obviously well versed in the subject. The lead section (before the ToC) should summarize the article contents in a high-level simple manner for the general reader who has no background or context. Each section should start off with a brief summary then expand with the detail, providing context. Yes any opinionated should be removed/copy-edited to have a neutral tone. Thanks, I'll help also. -- Stbalbach 01:57, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Well I'm not too familar with writing for wikipaedia so I'd feel better posting for comments first, I don't wish to upset anyone...it can be found at Magna Carta/temp.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Neiljamesking (talk • contribs) .

By convention a working version would be located at Magna Carta/temp. -- Stbalbach 19:43, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

I have moved it there. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Neiljamesking (talk • contribs) .

Ok I have left a comment at Talk:Magna Carta/temp (BTW you can sign your name to comments on talk pages with four tildes, like ~~~~). -- Stbalbach 19:34, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Reference to "democracy" in the section about reinterpretation during Tudor times

'The Tudors saw it as proof that the state of governance had existed since time immemorial and the Normans had been a brief break from this liberty and democracy. This is almost certainly not true but explains how Magna Carta came to be regarded as such an important document.' [my italics]

- This seems a rather dubious comment, and I'd like to see what evidence its based upon. England was not a democracy in Tudor times. Indeed, from what I understand, democracy was considered to be undesirable by almost all educated people, including those who believed in limited state power.

It should be scrapped or at least rephrased.

It means democracy in the widest sense, i.e. the power vested of the people. Whilst the Tudors did not believe to any extent in democracy in the modern conception, the idea of rule by consent was very important to the English conception of the state. This was what caused the problems later when the divine right of kings started to get wafted around. I was reffering to that; the concept that kings of England only remained kings provided the people believed that the king was indeed king. It was the reasoning behind the execution of Charles I. NeilKing 20:37, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Links

Is it me or are there far too many links in the first paragraph?

Neutrality

I tagged a sentence for neutrality, though I'm not entirely sure if that's the right tag.

The sentence suggesting the moon landings / magna carta repealing occured at the same time doesn't appear to have a citation / source, and appears to be just opinion.

Should that be present?

-Pyke (June 15th, 1:15pm)

Unecessary disambiguation

"The Magna Carta" redirects here. This article follows the usual academic style and uses "Magna Carta" with no "The"

First, the first sentence should be removed. Redirects should not be announced in the absence of disambiguation. User's redirected from "The Magna Carta" could not possibly wish they had been redirected to another article, thus, unecessary.

As for the second sentence, can anyone produce a source which confirms this claim about "the academic style"? As far as I am aware, the document is simply called "Magna Carta" and those who refer to it as "The Magna Carta" are either incorrect or simply using "the" as an article without implying that its part of the proper noun ("I read the Magna Carta today"). Is there a non-academic style of referring to this as The Magna Carta? savidan^{(talk) (e@)} 21:11, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

discussed a number of times on this talk page. The problem is people need to know up-front what standard is being used in this article so we dont have constant churn and inconsitency as in the past. The upfront statement has proved very helpful. -- Stbalbach 23:28, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

If it is merely designed to prevert people from changing the article, it should be a comment (as I originally changed it). In either case, I am going to remove the first sentence which does not serve the purpose that you are referring to. It's fine if this article uses one style by consensus but that should be announced to other editors on the talk page or as a comment. It should only appear in the article space if it can be sourced, and even then, only as a footnote. savidan^{(talk) (e@)} 20:23, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

It's been tried. Sounds good in theory, but in practice this is the only solution that has worked. Even this solution is not foolproof, people still go through adding "the" on occasion. But it has markedly reduced the number of incidents with a blaring notice at the top of the article. -- Stbalbach 21:18, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

For the sake of discussion, let's say I'm OK with the second sentence. Why, then, have the first one? Redirects are only announced in such a fashion when it is possible that someone redirected by that redirect would have wanted another article (e.g. "U.S. redirects here" in the United States article). That's clearly not the case here. savidan^{(talk) (e@)} 17:14, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

We have found the above notice to be very helpful in bringing attention to it, it works. The amount of "the" edit-churns has gone from a few times a week to perhaps once every 3 months. -- Stbalbach 01:30, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

I think this whole discussion is unecessary, as you can see above, the title was agreed on by a number of people for good reason. I see no reason to change this because one person disagrees.NeilKing 11:09, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't want to change to the title of the article. I'm talking about not making the first two sentences of the article (1) announcing a redirect which could not possibly be intended to point anywhere else (No one has contested the removal of this sentence on the talk page) and (2) A note to prevent editors from adding "the". Although I sympathize with the intent, this is not the proper method of doing so. That's why the comment was invented. See Yahoo!, for example. The article begins with a similar comment becacuse a lot of users go around deleting the exclamation point in the text or adding it to hyperlinks. However, even though it is much more of a problem in that article, no such disclaimer is visible in the article space, only a comment.

I am proposing deleting the first sentence and commenting out the second.

Please respond to my comments rather than hiveminding. You'll notice nowhere else on Wikipedia are such things visible in the article space. It sucks when user's stumble onto articles and make mistakes which have already been made. However, the history feature allows such changes to be undone and the comment feature empirically has served as a good deterent. The damage of users adding "the" is temporary and easily fixed. The damage of such a prominent disclaimer (aescetically) is permanent. savidan^{(talk) (e@)} 16:52, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

I obviously meant that when i said title. My point still stands. This is what has been agreed after much discussion. Please read the discussion at the top of this page. I am afraid I could not disagree more with your 'lesser of the two evils' approach.NeilKing 11:20, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Delisted GA

This article did not go through the current GAN nomination process. Looking at the article as is, it fails on criteria 2b of the GA quality standards. Although references are provided, the citation of sources is essential for verifiability. Most Good Articles use inline citations. I would recommend that this be fixed, to reexamine the article against the GA quality standards, and to submit the article through the nomination process. --RelHistBuff 10:16, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

U.S. Supreme Court reference & Word Change

I added a bit about how the U.S. Supreme Court explicitly noted Magna Carta (or rather Lord Coke's interpretation of it) as an antecedent of the right to a speedy trial (with an external link to the case).

In the "Popular Perceptions" area, I softened the sentence noting that Magna Carta is "revered" in America for breaking POV and for being unverifiable--not to mention likely demonstrably untrue. I used the word "honored" which is more in line with the facts. I also deleted an uncredited quote about an American serviceperson that, besides being unsourced, seemed odd. Gorjus 18:56, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Age of Henry III

Maybe it's just me, but I can't figure out how this works:

His nine-year-old son, Henry III, was next in line for the throne. The royalists believed the rebel barons would find the idea of loyalty to the child Henry more palatable, and so the child was swiftly crowned in late October 1216 and the war ended. Henry's regents reissued Magna Carta in his name on November 12, 1216, omitting some clauses, such as clause 61, and again in 1217. When he turned 13 in 1225, Henry III himself reissued Magna Carta again, this time in a shorter version with only 37 articles.

So Henry III was 9 years old in 1216. In 1225, he turned 13. Interesting.

Last sentence of section 3.0 doesn't make sense

The last sentence of section 3.0 (1226-1495, before the subsection about Great Council) currently reads: "The power vested in the Great Council by, albeit withdrawn, Clause 14 of Magna Carta became vested in the House of Commons but Magna Carta was all but forgotten for about a century, until the Tudors."

The phrase albeit withdrawn is misplaced, but I can't figure out where it should go — "The power, albeit withdrawn, vested in the Great Council..."? or perhaps "The power vested in the Great Council by Clause 14 of Magna Carta, but withdrawn when?, became vested in the House of Commons..."?

Lincmad 05:40, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Monarchy

Could this be considered the first step in an English or British transition from absolutism to constitutionalism, or would it be something earlier or later? VolatileChemical 22:21, 1 October 2006 (UTC)