Talk:Macedonians of Albania

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[edit] Bulgarians in Albania???

This article is about macedonians in albania NOT bulgarians. Bulgarians are a seperate group of people and officially there is no bulgarian minority in albania. Neither is their a substantial section of the population who speaks bulgarian. Where are these bulgarians?P m kocovski (talk) 20:38, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Their ethnicity is disputed especially since a substantial part of them self-declare as Bulgarians. I know you don't like it, but that is not a valid reason to remove information which is on the subject and suits WP:NPOV as it presents both points of view. --Laveol ^T 23:02, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

It funny that you have used "some scholars and bulgarian institutions" All of the sources provided are bulgarian, so "some bulgarian scholars would be more appropriate. This article is about the Macedonians in Albania, who speak Macedonian. Not about Bulgarian Albanians, if you want an article about the Bulgarians in Macedonia than you should start one with the followign title "bulgarians in Albania". We cannot allow a few "scholars" from bulgaria to dictate what nationality these people are. these same scholars believe ethnic Macedonians to be Bulgarians as well, are you suggesting that on the page for ethnic macedonians we should have the statements "Some scholars and Bulgarian institutions consider these people to be Bulgarians".???? This is ridiculous! how can a few "scholars" in a foreign country dictate to people what their nationality they are??? It would be incorrect for the article to state that many of them identify as "bulgarians". Could you please provide a reliable source for this?? as if believe it is a point of veiw push. It not about liking or not liking what you have written, it is innapropriate for this article and for the reasons (which i have just stated) i believe it should be removed, Until further discussion. P m kocovski (talk) 05:21, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Laveol, what you are saying is some of these people are Macedonians who identify as Bulgarians, as opposed to being Bulgarian. I think you are confused. Balkan Fever 08:33, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

What I'm saying is that part of those people are Bulgarians who self-identify as Bulgarians. And the whole Torbesh issue is disputed as well. --Laveol ^T 10:19, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

The people focused on in this article are the Macedonians who self-identify as Macedonians. Hence the title. Bulgarians have nothing to do with this article. Balkan Fever 10:34, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

The official statment of Albanian govermant is that there is not any Bulgarian minorety in Albania!--Makedonij 17:51, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Neutrality disputed tag

I added the Neutrality disputed tag because there is a POV that these people are Bulgarians, which should be mentioned. Preslav (talk) 19:27, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Do they,are you serious??Stop POV pushing,first read References,Macedonians are recognised minority and Bulgarians are not.That is not the same!Maybe you should put that tag on Ethnic Macedonians to.Remember this is not Bulgaraia.--Makedonij (talk) 21:43, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

No matter how ridiculous you may find the Bulgarian POV on this, the fact is that this POV exists. I am not saying that these people are Bulgarians, I am saying that there are people who say they are. I have no personal opinion on this because I don't know the facts well enough to have one. Preslav (talk) 05:46, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

And how do you find this out?I mean that they are Bulgarians?Why becouse 800 of them took Bulgarian Passport??HAHA,I acctualy have 3 passports but that doesn't change my nationality!!Oh i forgot there is no such thing like nationality in Bulgaria,right,"one state one nation" and no minorities,Hasan Hasani is Hristo Hristov!!--Makedonij (talk) 17:33, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

I suggest that you check the meaning of nationality and ethnicity. Mine is Dutch, and European, by the way. I agree with you that the treatment of minorities in Bulgaria can be improved. Preslav (talk) 17:54, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Well doesnt the relevan bulgarian POV go on Bulgarians in Albania? What needs to be done to prove that these people are macedonians not bulgarians? Bulgarians also claim that macedonians are etho-politically disorientated bulgarians, is that really necessary? Especially when these people are clearly bulgarians? PMK1 (talk) 06:42, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

You don't need to prove anything here, just respect that a significant group of people has a different opinion. Preslav (talk) 17:54, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

There was a time when this was one article with both POVs in it. Then PMK came and wanted it to have only his POV. That's the reason behind it. I personally think that there should be one article with both views, but it doesn't suit some contributors.--Laveol ^T 13:01, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Why don't we also have an article called "Slavs of the Republic of Macedonia" where we explain Bulgaria's (idiotic) view? You may consider the Bulgarian view important, but in reality it is just a fringe theory. Balkan Fever 13:05, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, the view abou Ethnic Macedonians in Bulgaria is fringe as well, but an article still exists, ey :) --Laveol ^T 13:18, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Whatever you say, Bozhidar. Balkan Fever 07:27, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Hey Janez Bond 008,stop pushing,you dont want to put tag on greek page,you dont want to end disscusion on Macedonians in Bulgaria,you just fallow Macedonians editors and denideing every thing,and this must stop,i will report this to someone neutral adminsitrator as soon as find one,and you dont read references becouse you are ???.

Macedonian minority in Albania is protected by law,recognised by low,have their own member in parliment,own major in PUSTEC,own poltical party which is called Macedonian aliance,and every thing has source by Albanian state,Macedonian state and many neutral European assotiations.If my English would be bether,you wouldn't have a chance!!!!Makedonij (talk) 14:35, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

There was a time when this was one article with both POVs in it. Then PMK came and wanted it to have only his POV.?? How relevant is the POV of another country which doesnt even border albania? They believe that macedonians are etho-politically disorientated bulgarians! There are two Slavic Minorities in East Albania, the Macedonians and the Gorani! How convienient that bulgaria believes they are bulgarians![1] !!! PMK1 (talk) 02:22, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, part of them do self-identify as Bulgarians. Tell them not to do so - isn't it annoying?--Laveol ^T 11:25, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

I think the best way to treat the Bulgarian POV in this article is in the same way the Macedonian POV on Samuil of Bulgaria is treated. Preslav (talk) 12:05, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Well,acctualy,we dont need to prove nothing here,for that there is a court in Strasbourg,and Bulgaria is well knowed there,for human rights,for minority issues,for denideing Macedonian nation.So why do we bodther whit this wikinonsence??? The Laveol pushing thing is ower looked by Moreshi and P.Fut, he is not editing articles,he is just reverting them,and denideing every single Macedonian thing, so if administrators dont care of that why should we write here any way??? Ta qpqa none at bajgane e madjiri.Gospod ke im sudi niv!--Makedonij (talk) 14:37, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Would you be kind enough to translate the last two sentences? --Laveol ^T 16:00, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes a part of them may choose to identify as Bulgarians, that is fine. What is not fine would be having bulgarian information saying that the Macedonians and Gorani are infact etho-politically disorientated bulgarians. Bulgarian POV, which claims that the Macedonians and gorani people's are in fact bulgarians is unacceptable and proposterous. Claims like that are reminiscent of San Stefano Bulgaria. PMK1 (talk) 05:50, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Interestingly we don't have such things in the article. Actually we have an Albanian saying something like this. The whole ethnic disorientated stuff sounds like rants cause you've been repeating it time and time again for no reason. Noone's claiming this. --Laveol ^T 12:16, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Ok,let use some logic here, becouse i dont se that Laveol is useing it(sory). I live my whole life in Slovenia and i stated many times that i'm Slovenian, when achiving nacionality, when serving an army and when i recive my first passport and so on, that das not change my self determination of my real ethincity, i'm simpley Macedonian and when i recived passport and ID ,every where i have a choice for self detreminate as MACEDONIAN.!!

So if some Macedonians from Albania took 800 Bulgarian passports that das not make them Bulgarians. You should first have to addmit that, there is no such thing as self detrmination in Bulgaria!--Makedonij (talk) 17:20, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, I can hardly understand a word. I gues you're trying to say that there is no self-determination in Bulgaria which in all means is ridiculous. --Laveol ^T 19:56, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes, yes i know, i hardly understand you to, but that is not point! The point (one of them) is that Bulgaria gives passport to every body and then it claims thet all of them are Bulgarians. As i say i've stated a lott of time that i'm Slovenian, also i say to you here "I'm Slovenian", but that das not change my nationality!! My nationality is steel MACEDONIAN!--Makedonij (talk) 20:34, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

By the way on another talkpage you said you lived in Serbia. Which one is it? --Laveol ^T 20:35, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Se my user page! And my mother is from Bosilegrad. LOL ,Happy now?!--Makedonij (talk) 20:38, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

So are you half bulgarian or serb? Or are you one of the Macedonians from the Prohor Pčinjski? PMK1 (talk) 05:26, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Human Rights + Famous Maks

If anyone has a source for famous Macedonians in Albania, add them.

Also, I found an excellent source about the current situation for Macedonians in Albania (someone please update the article since I cannot):

Finally, Albania recognizes a Greek and a Macedonian minority, but only in the Southern regions. Those who identify as Macedonians and Greeks outside these minority regions are denied the minority rights granted in the south, including minority classes at state schools. The 2000 Himara municipal election tensions were related to an effort of the Greek minority to have its existence recognized, which was successful insofar as even the OSCE ODIHR reported that “in Himara, … there is a Greek-speaking minority.” In a statement to the 2000 OSCE Implementation Review meeting, in response to a related GHM/MRG-G statement, Albania declared that “the boundaries of minority zones result solely from the course of Albania’s history.” In the forthcoming census, Albania did not include questions on national identity and religion (unlike in previous ones) to avoid seeing its official policy on minorities refuted by census data, even though ECRI recommended the inclusion of such questions.

source: http://www.greekhelsinki.gr/bhr/english/special_issues/CEDIME-unwgm2001/un%20wgm%20ghm-mrgg%20statement%203a%2014-5-01.doc Mactruth (talk) 23:14, 11 June 2008 (UTC)