Talk:Lotfi Asker Zadeh

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[edit] Jew?

He is a jew, or what?

Is that important? Probably he is not. PERICLES

According to Persian_Jews he is. Tsf 18:06, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

As far as I know, his mother was Russian, and father Azeri. There are no sources saying otherwise. Grandmaster 12:50, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, probably he's not important. [1] --Alperen 16:19, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

mabye his mother was russian jew?!!!!

His father was an Azeri Muslim and his mother was Russian Jew. I think the author of the article should have also mentioned the Muslim background since he has mentioned the Jewish background or neither of the two.

Someone removed the ethnicity of his father from the article, and I added it back. I don’t think that this information should be suppressed. Grandmaster 10:33, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Maintenance

Added some sectioning for context, the scientist info box (first changes anonymously), etc. Lycurgus 23:08, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Lotfi Asker Zadeh was born in Baku, Azerbaijan. The article says so, therefore I reverted the edit that changed the birthplace to Iran. --Grandmaster 10:15, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Nationality

Nationality is not place of birth. Someone, please bring a citation that he is an Azeri national officially.

However, he definitely is:

  • an Iranian citizen automatically since his father was Iranian Azari and he grew up in Iran and travelled with Iranian passport to the USA first,
  • an American citizen where he lives now,
  • possibly a Russian citizen through his mother,
  • possibly an Azeri citizen because of place of birth (not sure if that is an official stautus and/or if he ever needed the official status and documents).

Anyhow, I put all 4 in the list in good faith. Citations might confirm/deny the latter two of the above list.

Persian Magi (talk) 23:17, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

He is American by nationality, Azeri by ethnicity. The nationality tab should indicate that he is American. Grandmaster (talk) 11:13, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
People can have double citizenship, like many Iranians living in the USA. Some countries do not allow that say Holland. You lose your citizenship when you acquire another one if you are from Holland. But with Iran it is not the case.
He definitely has an Iranian passport and left Iran with that passport. He possibly have a Russian ID for his mother, if he had applied for it and needed it to travel to Russia. Anyhow, I am happy as is.
You like to own him, don't you? :) How about Nezami with his poems about glory of Iran? That reminds me that I have to bear inmind that it is a crime to say Nezami was not an ethnic Azeri when in Republic of Azerbaijan. I also need to take a Russian-Azeri dictionary there with myself as you guys have mixed my Gozal Anadilimi with lots of those Russian words! :) By the way, do you ever learn Persian so that you can read Nezami and more than half of Fozuli's poems? Just curious! Persian Magi (talk) 02:04, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
Why don't you keep this to the topic? Are you here to wage some personal war or to write encyclopedia? Grandmaster (talk) 07:08, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
OK. Ignore the last paragraph of mine above. Although the questions were relevant, I have to admit, they were off the topic. I thought you may answer those in a good spirit of fun. I was half joking and did not realize you will take it too personally. My apologies!
I was/am geniunely after information/indication on how much Persian and stuff like Nezami poems are taught in Azerbaijan Republic. I am also interested to know how much Russian influence in Azari language has had.
Anyhow, I guess I may be better go and ask those questions in a more obviously appropriate topic/forum then. You have every right not to answer them here. If you prefer you can put in the answers or any useful links into my talk page. Thanks. Persian Magi (talk) 01:44, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

He holds Iranian and Amercian citizenship, I have added a source in which he hisemlf explains his citizneship status.--07fan (talk) 06:31, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

The nationality issue has come up again. I have reverted, but I am not 100% sure whether I reverted to the correct nationality. I think people familiar with this area need to improve that aspect of this biog in order to put the matter to rest. John Vandenberg (talk) 10:43, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

His current nationality in terms of citizenship is American. He was formerly a citizen of Iran, but he is not now. He says that himself in an interview:
You left Europe many years ago and you have lived in USA to these days.
I am the citizen of the United States. I was born in Baku, but I was not Soviet citizen, I was an Iranian citizen. In 1944 I came to the States as an immigrant, not as a student. Iran is a wonderful country but I could not do scientific work. Becoming rich was possible, but I did not want to be rich and spending my life playing cards. That is why I came to the States. I started my graduate studies at MIT, where in 1946 I received my master degree. I could to stay there to continue my doctoral studies, but my parents moved to New York this time. I wanted to be near them; therefore I started study at Columbia University. [2]
As for ethnicity, he is of mixed Azerbaijani and Russian origin. And he was indeed born in Azerbaijan SSR, since Azerbaijan was part of the USSR at the time. He grew up in Iran and was Iranian citizen until he moved to the US. Grandmaster (talk) 11:29, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
You don't lose your Iranian citizenship, unless you renounce it. The source says he had Iranian citizenship ( and doesn't say he is a former Iranian citizen, or that he's no longer an Iranian citzien), so please do not alter sourced martial. --07fan (talk) 03:55, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
The source says that he used to be a citizen of Iran, but it does not say that he still has an Iranian passport. Lotfi zade says that he is an American citizen, but never says that he is an Iranian citizen. He says that he "was" an Iranian citizen, i.e. he is not now. So please either present a source saying that he is an Iranian citizen at present, or refrain from original research. Thank you. Grandmaster (talk) 04:24, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
He means was solely an Iranian citizen before also becoming an American citizen in 1994, but he doesn't say that he lost his Iranian citizenship as a result, or that he is a "former" Iranian citizen, and no longer an Iranian citizen. We can't interpret sourced martial, to make such a conclusion that he's a former Iranian citizen, unless there is a source that says so explicitly. As I explained before, you don't lose your Iranian citizenship by becoming an Amercian citizen, millions of Iranians in USA are dual citizens.--07fan (talk) 04:30, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
He says: I was an Iranian citizen. This cannot be interpreted as "I am an Iranian citizen". If you have any other source saying otherwise, please present it, but this one says that he was an Iranian citizen in the past, and at present he is the citizen of the US. We cannot give sources our personal interpretation, that is considered an original research. Grandmaster (talk) 04:35, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
You're taking I was an Iranian citizen out of context, he's talking about past and his migration to US as an Iranian before he also became an American, and therefore uses a past tense. He never says "I am a former Iranian citizen", and saying "I am a US citizen" does not contradict his Iranian citizenship, as millions of US citizens are also Iranian citizens. --07fan (talk) 04:51, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
I’m not taking anything out of context. These are Lotfi zade’s own words: 1) I am a US citizen; 2) I was an Iranian citizen. And you are giving the source your personal interpretation, which is something you are not allowed to do. The words “I was an Iranian citizen” cannot be interpreted like “I am an Iranian citizen at present”. If you have a source saying that Lotfi zade is currently an Iranian citizen, please present it, otherwise stop removing sourced info. This is a WP:BLP article and it should not contain unverifiable claims. If you wish we can take it for dispute resolution and ask third party editors to comment. Grandmaster (talk) 05:14, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Unverifiable claims? Saying he's a "former Iranian" is an Unverifiable claim. The man grew up in Iran, moved to US on an Iranian passport, and even after moving to US, lived and worked in US and traveled around the world as an Iranian for decades, and did not acquire an American citizenship until 1994, three years after he had retired, and there is no indication that he ever lost his Iranian citizenship. You are reinterpreting the source, making a straw man argument that he's not an Iranian all of sudden, based on what grammar tense he used in his interview, when he's never said I am a "former Iranian" or "I am no longer an Iranian". Regardless, I've added a 2005 BBC Persian interview [3] in which Lotfi Asker Zadeh is referred to and refers to himself as an Iranian. BBC is a reliable source.--07fan (talk) 05:38, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Does he say there that he is a citizen of Iran? Please provide precise translation of the relevant quote. Thank you Grandmaster (talk) 05:49, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
The question is, does he still hold an Iranian passport as his second nationality? I make no interpretations, the source that I quoted does not say that he is an Iranian citizen at present, he says that he was one before he moved to the US. If your new source states otherwise, please provide the accurate translation. Grandmaster (talk) 05:52, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
"Lotfi Asker Zadeh , Iranian scientist and..." If you seriously believe that Lotfi Asker Zadeh has renounced or somehow magically lost his Iranian citizenship, you could just e-mail him and ask him if he ever lost or renounced his citizenship. By the way, passport and citizenship are not the same thing. You could be a citizen, without renewing your passport. --07fan (talk) 06:05, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
It does not say that he has an Iranian citizenship. Please stick to WP:VERIFY and provide a source saying that Mr. Lotfi Zade has dual citizenship. Otherwise your claims are WP:OR and violation of wikipedia rules. All the info must rely on verifiable sources. Grandmaster (talk) 06:19, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
BBC calls him Iranian, Iranian means a citizen of Iran. And it's already been established that he lived and work in US as an Iranian citizen and on an Iranian passport. Once an Iranian citizen, one remains an Iranian citizen until he or she renounces it. Zadeh becoming an American citizen three years after he retired, has no bearing on his Iranian citizenship status. According to the law, "Voluntary acquisition of a foreign citizenship does not lead to automatic loss of Iranian citizenship". [4]. You need to provide a source saying that Zadeh has renounced his Iranian citizenship, or better yet contact Zadeh and ask him for a comment, otherwise your assertion that he is a "former Iranian" is WP:OR. --07fan (talk) 06:34, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
Iranian does not necessarily mean citizenship. It just means that he hails from Iran, from where he moved to the USA. The burden of proof is on you, not me. I will ask for third party opinion on this, I hope you do not mind. Grandmaster (talk) 06:43, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
The burden of proof is on you to prove that he's a "former" Iranian, in face of evidence to the contrary,. As for "third party opinion", you could just e-mail and ask Lotfi Asker Zadeh himself, I am not sure why you don't want to seek Zadeh's own opinion. --07fan (talk) 06:57, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

I don't think this is a very serious issue, and I think this can be resolved by presenting proper sources. You are making claims about citizenship, so it is you who needs to contact Mr Lotfi Zade. I asked for a third opinion here: [5] I hope this will help to resolve the dispute. Grandmaster (talk) 07:04, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Proper sources have been presented that he holds Iranian citizenship and that Iranian citizenship is not lost by acquisition of a foreign citizenship , but you're still making a claim that he somehow no longer holds an Iranian citizenship without any proof, so it's up you to bring a source to that effect or contact Zadeh and ask him for a comment.--07fan (talk) 07:38, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Numerous sources on Google books refer to Zadeh as either Iranian or Iranian-American. [[6]]. --07fan (talk) 07:50, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

So far I haven’t seen a single source stating that he is currently a citizen of Iran. You haven’t presented a single source that clearly stated “Lotfi Zadeh is at present a citizen of Iran”. We have a source on his American citizenship, but none on any other (there were claims on his Azerbaijani citizenship as well). Please note that any info included in the article needs to be verifiable from an independent source. Again, this is not a big deal, just a matter of accuracy of information about the living person. Grandmaster (talk) 09:34, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
Maybe we can avoid this whole issue by not interpreting “nationality” strictly as “citizenship”. According to the article “Nationality”: Nationality can also mean membership in a cultural/historical group related to political or national identity, even if it currently lacks a formal state. In that case Lotfi Zadeh would be American, Azerbaijani and Iranian, maybe Russian too, but not sure about that. Grandmaster (talk) 09:50, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

All the sources I have provided, and can be found on Google books, are verifiable, and refer to him as a national of Iran or an Iranian-American. So we're not just going to redfeine nationality and call him "Russian" or "Azerbaijani" national, just because you're refusing to accept WP:RS sources explicitly calling him an Iranian, or an Iranian-American, and have made an unsubstantiated assertion or claim that he's no longer an Iranian citizen. Meanwhile, I will try to get in touch with Lotfi Asker Zadeh who I've had the honor of meeting at several Iranian community events, to make a comment on this issue. I don't think he'll be very pleased that an editor on Wikipedia is calling him a "former Iranian" and reinterpreting his words as meaning he's no longer an Iranian. --07fan (talk) 11:01, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Once again, none of sources that were presented so far says anything about his Iranian citizenship. Not a single one. That is your personal interpretation. The only source that mentions his Iranian citizenship (and actually uses the word "citizenship") is Mr Lotfi Zadeh himself, and he says I was an Iranian citizen. As we both know, in English "was" and "is" have different meanings. I would appreciate if you could seek Mr. Lotfi Zadeh's clarification on this and present it in a verifiable form. My interest, same as everyone else's here, is nothing but an accurate presentation of the info about this wonderful person. We have the rules that we need to observe. Grandmaster (talk) 11:42, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
As I search Wikipedia for the keyword Azeri and Iran , I find out here is an on-going discussion. The nationality question is one of those that are really non important.I don't think any country like Iran needs persons to introduce itself! Prof. Lotfi Zadeh has a dual citizenship of USA and Iran.That is because the difficulty of discarding Iranian citizenship in Iranian law! To get out of Iranian citizenship, the person have to write an official request and go after a lengthy process;But on real life he is dominantly a citizen of USA and he view himself as American citizen and not Iranian citizen.One of my cousins that visited him previous year said that his Persian language was not so good after all this year and he had difficulty in talking in Persian.Overall I think it's better not to be over sensitive about his nationality.--Alborz Fallah (talk) 19:48, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
I agree and said many times that I don't think that it is a big issue. However it is a matter of verifiability. If we include info about his second nationality, it should be properly sourced. If there is a proper source for any other nationality of Mr Lotfi Zadeh, I have no problem with its inclusion. However we cannot include info based on personal assumptions. Wiki rules do not allow that. Grandmaster (talk) 04:25, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
User:Alborz Fallah is also pointing out a logical flaw in your argument, due to the fact that once you're an Iranian citzien, it's almost impossible to lose an Iranian ciztienship...so the only assumption here is on your part that Zadeh actualy lost his Iranian citzienship relying on your own interpretation of a figure of speech, and without any solid proof.--07fan (talk) 21:15, 2 April 2008 (UTC)


Grandmaster, you are drawing all your conclusions from a sentence from Lotfi Zadeh: "I was an Iranian citizen". Even if he says "I am not an Iranian citizen anymore." That does not make him a non-Iranian. If you are an Iranian citizen, the only way to become non-Iranian is to formally denounce your citizenship. For example, even if he says in an interview that he is no longer an Iranian and goes to apply for a passport to Iran, in extreme politically motivated circumstances he might have a slight chance of legal ramifications, such as dealing with court etc., for the interview when he arrives in Iran but for acquiring the passport he will have no issues. He won't need to apply for Iranian citizenship as by default he is an Iranian citizen already. He does not have to be given Iranian citizenship.
It is also true if you go and do such interview tomorrow and say you no longer are an Azeri or American citizen. That does not deprive you from your citizenship. Your citizenship is an official status and can not be ruled out by your interview. Denouncing a citizenship has to be formal, in case of Iranian, and by voluntarily acquiring other citizenship, in case of some countries like Australia.
Therefore, we know he was an Iranian citizen. We also know that he has NOT denounced it neither verbally nor officially. So your conclusion of that simple statement is only speculative opinion of yours and not something of Wikipedia material. Persian Magi (talk) 23:37, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Again, original research. Any claim needs to have a source. So please provide a source for his second nationality. You yourself were asking for a source for his Azerbaijani nationality above, see the very first line in your first posting in this section, and you were right by doing it. It is the same requirement for the source for any other nationality. I would not mind inclusion of any info as long as it is properly sourced. Grandmaster (talk) 04:25, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
Grandmaster, BBC Persian says his father was a journalist from Ardabil, Iran.
Here is also another link from an Azeri page about Lotfi Zadeh's father:
Born of an Azerbaijani father on assignment as a journalist from Iran, and a Russian mother who was a physician, Zadeh enjoyed a privileged life those early years of his life in Baku. But at the age of ten, when Stalin introduced collectivization of farms throughout the Soviet Union, widespread famine followed, and the Zadeh family moved back to his father's homeland. There he continued his education in English in a private Presbyterian school in Tehran. After high school, he sat for the national university exams and placed second in the entire country. In 1942, he was graduated from the University of Tehran in electrical engineering.
I hope you agree with me that there is no research involved in accepting the simple fact that he was an Iranian through his Iranian father. Persian Magi (talk) 02:12, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
I never said that he was not. In fact, I quoted his interview where Mr Lotfi Zadeh says that he was an Iranian citizen before he moved to the US. The question is if Mr Lotfi Zadeh still has Iranian citizenship as his second nationality? Any source on that would be good. Grandmaster (talk) 07:16, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
Are you asking me to prove he has not lost the status since then? Why do you think he has? Persian Magi (talk) 07:56, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
You claim that he has Iranian citizenship at present, please present a source. That's what wiki rules require. We need a source, not personal assumptions. Grandmaster (talk) 05:11, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
Grandmaster, you keep going in circles. You agree that he was Iranian citizen and do not debate that. Then why should I bring evidence that the status has not changed? Do you, for every person in Wikipedia, check sources for their current citizenship, just in case if their citizenship changes? Do you need evidence for someone being alive when you are saying he is still alive in Wikipedia? Or you seek evidence if a claim is made that former alive is dead now.Persian Magi (talk) 09:37, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
Because Mr Lotfi Zadeh mentions only US citizenship as his present one. No info on any other. So we need a source. Grandmaster (talk) 09:50, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
We have sources for his Iranian citizenship, such as BBC. You are bringing about an interview to disprove them. Therefore, it all depends on what you are "inferring" from the interview. Not everyone agrees with what you perceive from that interview. I do not. I think he was rather emphasizing the fact that he was not a Russian citizen at that time and nothing more. Also it might be considered research if you do push for your or my interpretation of that interview. So lets agree that we do not agree on what that interview means in terms of his current citizenship and rely on already provided sources. Therefore, unless if you bring another evidence that he has revoked his Iranian citizenship, we consider him an Iranian American. Persian Magi (talk) 02:29, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
BBC Persian does not even use the word "citizenship", how could it be a source about that? I'm still expecting a source on that. Grandmaster (talk) 05:45, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
You are correct, BBC does not use the world citizen but uses IRANI-TABAR, i.e. Iranian origin. However, the term could also indicate Iranian diaspora. Guess back to square on again, there is no debate on whether or not he and his father "were" Iranians. Therefoere, any claim that the status has changed since he "was" an Iranian should be sourced or otherwise we stay with status quo. Persian Magi (talk) 11:22, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
His father was Ragim Aleskerzade. I'm not sure whether he is a full-blooded Azerbaijani, but if so, the fact he was born in Ardebil doesn't make him Iranian automatically. According to this Ragim left Baku in 1930s to settle in Iran. If Ragim hails from Ardebil, we need an appropriate citation. --Brand спойт 09:27, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
Dear Branmeister, forums are not considered to be reliable sources in Wikipedia. Persian Magi (talk) 09:37, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Asker vs. Askar

Why do we have two different spelling of the name? Anyone has a source that says which one is correct.
We know that the vowel "a" in Azarbaijan and "al" (meaning hand) by Iranian Azarbaijanis (pronounced like "a" in "Sam" in English) is exactly the same as "ə" in Azərbaycan and "əl" ("a" in Azəri Latin alphabet is used for things like "alma", meaning apple). The letter "ə" becomes "e" when the words are imported in English, confusing big time and is a great source of argument over spelling and pronouncing things. For pronouncing "e" as in "pen" Azəri Latin alphabet uses "e", e.g. gedib, meaning gone.
However, Lotfi Zadeh had an Iranian passport when migrating to America so it is highly likely that his passport would have shown "Askar Zadeh" instead of "Asker Zadeh". Please provide sources in either case and lets make it one spelling across. Persian Magi (talk) 08:36, 5 April 2008 (UTC)


Since no viable source has been provided for "Asker", I am suggesting to move the page to Lotfi Askar Zadeh or Lotfi A. Zadeh and redirect this page to that page instead. If I do not see a comment here for a while I will do so. Please let me know otherwise. Persian Magi (talk) 11:46, 12 April 2008 (UTC)