Talk:La Mon restaurant bombing

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Belfast, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to the City of Belfast, Northern Ireland on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.
Start	This article has been rated as Start-Class on the assessment scale. (If you rated the article please give a short summary at comments to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses of the article.)
Article Grading: The article has been rated for quality and/or importance but has no comments yet. If appropriate, please review the article and then leave comments here to identify the strengths and weaknesses of the article and what work it will need.
WikiProject Belfast tasks: Here are some open WikiProject Belfast tasks: Places: Landmarks: Parks and gardens: Events: People: Edward Harland, Newton Emerson, Max Clendinning, Robert MacDonnell, Sophie Hoopman, Paul Charles (novelist), Paula Clamp, Joseph Tomelty, Jim Malley, Alison Campbell, Shauna Gunn, Gayle Williamson, Lucy Evangelista, Catherine Jean Milligan, Henry Lavery, Francis Maginn, Charles Michael Lavery QC, Colin Cooper (academic), H Douglas Keith, William Whitla, Zane Radcliffe Newspapers: Streets: Rivers: Organisations: Our Lady and St Patrick's College, Belfast Boy's Model School History: Buildings: Major topics: Edit or discuss this list.

	This article is within the scope of the Irish Republicanism WikiProject, a collaborative effort to improve Wikipedia's coverage of topics related to Irish republicanism and Irish nationalism. If you would like to participate, you can visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks.
Start	This article has been rated as start-Class on the assessment scale. (If you rated the article please give a short summary at comments to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses of the article.)
Low	This article is on a subject of Low-importance for Irish Republicanism-related articles.
Article Grading: The article has been rated for quality and/or importance but has no comments yet. If appropriate, please review the article and then leave comments here to identify the strengths and weaknesses of the article and what work it will need.

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Northern Ireland, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to Northern Ireland on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.
Start	This article has been rated as Start-Class on the assessment scale. (If you rated the article please give a short summary at comments to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses of the article.)
Article Grading: The article has been rated for quality and/or importance but has no comments yet. If appropriate, please review the article and then leave comments here to identify the strengths and weaknesses of the article and what work it will need.
WikiProject Northern Ireland tasks: Here are some open WikiProject Northern Ireland tasks: Places: Mussenden Temple and Downhill Demesne, Devenish Island Monastic Site, Killyclogher, Derryvore Landmarks: The Skerries (Northern Ireland), Black Pig's Dyke, Helen's Tower Parks and gardens: Events: Ulster Cup, Ulster hockey People: Alison Campbell, Paul Charles (novelist), Paula Clamp, Max Clendinning, Colin Cooper (academic), Newton Emerson, Lucy Evangelista, Robert Hall (doctor), Shauna Gunn, Sophie Hoopman, H Douglas Keith, Charles Michael Lavery QC, Henry Lavery, Francis Maginn, Jim Malley, Catherine Jean Milligan, Phillip McCallen, Robert MacDonnell, Joseph Tomelty, Gayle Williamson, Zane Radcliffe, Professor Richard Rose, Brian Baird (newsreader) Newspapers/Magazines: Fortnight Magazine 'Schools/Colleges: Glenola Collegiate School, Our Lady and St Patrick's College, Belfast Boy's Model School, St. Columbanus' College, Streets: Rivers: River Bush, River Mourne, River Moyola, River Roe Organisations: Industrial Development Board, Forest Service Northern Ireland, Rivers Agency Northern Ireland, Invest NI, Roads Service Northern Ireland, Child Support Agency (NI), Boundary Commission for Northern Ireland, District Policing Partnerships, Compensation Agency, Office of the Oversight Commissioner, Electoral Office for Northern Ireland, Northern Ireland Housing Executive, Central Services Agency, Northern Ireland Blood Transfusion Service, Census Office in Northern Ireland, Northern Ireland Statistics and Research Agency, Cameron Commission, Hunt Committee, Stanley Leisure, Ormo, Sunblest (currently re-directs) History: Rose Report, History of Armagh, History of Newry, History of Lisburn Buildings: Belvoir Park Hospital, Guildhall, Derry Major topics: Geography of Northern Ireland, Geology of Northern Ireland, Integrated Education Edit or discuss this list.

	Ireland Portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Ireland, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to Ireland on Wikipedia. For more information, or to get involved, visit the project page.
Start	This article has been rated as Start-Class on the Project's quality scale. (If you rated the article please give a short summary at comments to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses.)
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the priority scale.
	An image is requested for this article as its inclusion will substantially increase the significance of the article. Please remove the image-needed parameter once the image is added.

The names of those killed in this incident was removed in accordance with Wikipedia policy, but for those interested, it can still be seen at: Previous version, including list of names --Jackyd101 18:10, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

I believe it to be utterly stupid that Wikipedia think it wrong to not include such important facts. Oh well, what can I do? --172.141.30.128 22:19, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Contents 1 Terrorist 2 Northern Ireland 3 Edit request 4 WikiProject class rating 5 Recent edits

[edit] Terrorist

The term terrorist is POV and should be removed from the article, a number of editors have done this but Astrotrain keeps reinserting it. Can we come ot a consensus on this issue.--Vintagekits 21:53, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

The event has been described as a terrorist event frequently. This will be included in the article with a reference. Vintage is correct in so far as this Fact should be supported with evidence. I'm not sure about consenus as this page should be used to establish one, not edit-waring. Weggie 22:34, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Weggie. "Terrorist" as spoken from the article persona is POV (in this respect, Vintage is indeed correct (I think that's the first time I've ever said that)), but it's not when references are provided. Logoistic 23:07, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

I can provide a reference to say that they are "freedom fighters" - I am sure that will be OK with you then. However, in this case terrorist and freedom fighter are loaded terms and POV--Vintagekits 23:13, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes, if there is a debate freedom fighter is as weasel as terrorist. Whatever our personal pov's wikipedia comes first and demands neutrality, and especially in political situations in which both sides suffer, SqueakBox 23:38, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

There is a very simple solution to this problem. In the lead part of the article about the bombing, there should be no mention of the perpetrators except as members of the Provisional Irish Republican Army. Then, in a later section, there should be a brief mention of reactions to the event including sourced mention of the phrases terrorists and/or freedom fighters. Neither term should be given precedence over the other and this section (unlike the description of events) can include sourced reference to dictionary definitions and/or to government categorisations of the organisation as a whole. Sources should be from mainstream reputable news organisations or authors, not from biased or fringe commentators. It is actually irrelevant whether this incident fits a dictionary or Wikipedia definition of terrorism or not, since there are clearly strong opinions on both sides and no one wins with a lengthy and destructive edit war over choice of words. Contributors from both sides of the divide should be aware that pushing the POV that the perpetators of the bombing were either terrorists/freedom fighters is both disingenous and harmful to the article and Wikipedia as a whole. --Jackyd101 23:48, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

The article should conform to the following guideline: WP:NPOV#Undue_weight Weggie 23:55, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Which side are you suggesting has/might have undue weight?--Jackyd101 00:09, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

'NPOV says that the article should fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by a verifiable source, and should do so in proportion to the prominence of each.' Removing terrorism or atrocity altogether as some appear to want would not meet this guideline as a stack of reputable sources use these words. This not POV but reflecting the documented reaction to the event and the assessment of those who have commented on this event. I would suggest the best way of doing this is to use their words, i.e. quotes Weggie 00:25, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Northern Ireland

Shouldn't we change the title to La Mon Restaurant Bombing (Northern Ireland) as I assumed the article was about an atrocity ( a nice pov word for any type of murder, IMO) in France or thereabouts, which shows my ignorance but I we are writing for the ignorant (ie those who dont know abou this topic and want to learn). Anyway, just an idea, will only do if there is consensus, SqueakBox 23:38, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Not sure about that, but I don't know why the word restaurant is in there - if anything the La Mon is a hotel!Traditional unionist (talk) 23:48, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Regardless of peoples political pov, if an organisation/individual is using violence against a civilian population in order to force someone else (ie a government) to acquiesce to political demands, then they are terrorising that population. This goes for most of the "guerrilla" organisations in the recent history of Northern Ireland. Organisations can evolve, but at this point, ie. the La Mon Hotel bombing, this organisation, ie. the IRA, were terrorising civilians - they were terrorists. Coming to a consensus IS important and I agree that the organisation's name SHOULD be used.

Plot Tracer

[edit] Edit request

{{editprotected}}

There is no edit war, merely a misguided editor who is making edits contrary to Wikipedia guidelines and established consensus. The current version does not follow the style guidelines at WP:LEAD, in that the table of contents comes after the lead and does not include ugly amounts of whitespace, as can be seen in the version I was using. For consensus, see Talk:Omagh bombing#List of names where a list of names was removed by consensus from an identical article in terms of scope. It should be noted that he ignored this consensus and repeatedly tried to re-insert the list of names into that article as well. Please also see the help desk thread where the editor raised this and numerous editors have stated it adds nothing to the article. The editor in question has stated he is taking a wikibreak, so either the edit should be made or the page unprotected, as keeping it protected solves nothing except to maintain his version that is against consensus and Wikipedia guidelines on style. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 02:05, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

The page has already been unprotected by the admin who protected it originally; check the protection log. CMummert · talk 02:29, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

It hadn't at the time, but thanks. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 02:34, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 06:08, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

I can't understand the fact that the political historical figures are mentioned, though those ultimately affected - the victims - are not.

Plot Tracer —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.107.96.30 (talk) 00:43, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Recent edits

The information about the phone box (sourced by Mallie & Bishop) does not mention that being the IRA's version of events, it's what Mallie & Bishop say. Therefore to try and portray it as the IRA's version is grossly misleading and a breach of NPOV as it's attributing information to completely the wrong people. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 18:28, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

And furthermore:

• [1] "Dismayed by universal condemnation, the IRA claimed that the aim was to destroy the La Mon hotel without causing civilian casualties. Their statement detailed that after planting the bomb, the 'volunteers' attempted to issue a telephone warning but the public telephone box had been vandalised" - source says nothing of the sort so it's a POV addition, and "Dismayed by universal condemnation" is total POV not in the source.
• [2] "They further claimed that those who planted the bomb attempted to issue a prompt telephone warning but the public telephone box they chose had been vandalised" - again, source says nothing of the sort, POV addition.
• [3] Personal attack and accusations of bad faith

It's clear based on those first two highly POV edits what's going on here, especially with the attacks and other accusations. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 22:05, 25 March 2008 (UTC)