Talk:Karate

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Contents

[edit] Article Cleanup

To get an overview of this article, I have used an editor to count the bytes in each section:

Introduction                    1481
Practice of Karate               724
Kata (Forms)                    1621
Kumite (Sparring)               1062
Dojo Kun                        2061
Kokoro (Attitude)               1015
Courtesy                        1200
Traditional Concepts            1656
Kobudo/Weapons                   727
Conditioning                     293
Sport                           2258
Rank                            2928
Etymology of "Karate"            452
Chinese Hand                    1363
Empty Hand                      1848
The Way and the Hand             651
History Okinawa                 5021
History Japan                   7259
History Korea                   1543
History USA                      242
History UK                       541
History Soviet Union            1323
History International            798
Film and pop culture            1264
Sports and Olympics             1113
Negative issues                  937

jmcw 14:11, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Introduction is ok. jmcw 14:11, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
Practice of Karate could have better text. jmcw 14:11, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
Kata (Forms) could have better text. jmcw 14:11, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
Kumite (Sparring) : remove 'Basic Footwork' from the article. jmcw 14:11, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
Done. jmcw 13:28, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
Dojo Kun, Kokoro (Attitude), Courtesy, Traditional Concepts: create a separate budo philosophy article. For example, 'Go no sen' does not belong exclusively in karate. jmcw 14:11, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
Dojo Kun has link to Bushidō which has a list. jmcw 13:46, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
Done. Moved Traditional Concepts to Japanese Martial Arts article. jmcw 22:40, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
Kobudo/Weapons does not belong in the karate article. jmcw 14:11, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
Done. Added link to Okinawan kobudo article
Conditioning is much too short with not enough information. jmcw 14:11, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
Done. Added Okinawan and sport karate material. jmcw 10:07, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
Sport should contain the information about Olympics. jmcw 14:11, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
Done. Olympic info integrated and WUKO mentioned.
Rank with its list of ranks and list of qualities should have its own wikki page. jmcw 14:11, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
Done. Lists removed and links to existing wikki kyu and dan pages. jmcw 13:18, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
Etymology of "Karate" is weasel worded; merge with Chinese Hand and Empty Hand. jmcw 14:11, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
The Way and the Hand and the discourse on "do" would be better in the philosopy section. jmcw 14:11, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
History should have its own wikki article. A time line of 'In 1492 A taught B' might be more style neutral. History Okinawa should have more information. History Japan should have less style info. History Korea is ok. History USA is too short and lacks style info. History UKis too short and lacks style info. History Soviet Union: are there other styles than Shotokan? History International: delete. jmcw 14:11, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
Film and pop culture is ok. jmcw 14:11, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
Sports and Olympics: merge with sport; mention WUKO JKFA etc. jmcw 14:11, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
Done. jmcw 11:05, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
Negative issues is ok. jmcw 14:11, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
I'm not sure the "negative issues" section needs anything more than a link to "McDojo" as none of the issues are relevant only to karate. They can apply to Taekwondo, Kempo, Jujitsu or any other martial art or sport. Shinji nishizono 15:19, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
Maybe removing the redundant list would be a help. jmcw
Done. List removed. jmcw 13:18, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
Wow, nice review, Jmcw37! I wrote the subsection on the history of Karate in Soviet Union, and I do remember a couple other styles, but I've got to dig up reasonable references to be certain. If we end up having a separate "Karate history" article, I'll be sure to do that. --Cubbi 01:49, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
History need its own article, with just an overview & link here --Nate1481( t/c) 11:16, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
I'll be away for a training week July 16-21 - will continue later. jmcw 11:02, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

I have started revising the article for grammar, readability, and adherence to Wikipedia guidelines. Janggeom 05:52, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

I have had a look through the article and revised parts of it. I plan to change all names to the 'first name–surname' format since that seems to be the more common usage in this article. I plan to retain American spelling since that seems to be the common usage in this article. Janggeom 05:11, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

I myself would prefer consistent Japanese order of family name/given name but there is a wiki standard Wikipedia:Manual of Style (Japan-related articles)#Names. Before 1868, Japanese order; after 1868, western order. jmcw 13:12, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

I think the reference to Taido and Taijutsu is a bit misleading, since Taido does not have a historical connection to Taijutsu. The founder of Taido, Seiken Shukumine, was an Okinawan schooled in traditional Okinawan arts, and never studied Taijutsu, AFAIK. I'm not sure if the names even have the same kanji for "Tai". --81.197.8.116 (talk) 15:52, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Auto Peer-review Notes

(I'll be working through these)

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You may wish to browse through User:AndyZ/Suggestions for further ideas. Thanks, Medains 12:00, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Kata Forms

"None of these variations are more "correct" than the other, though during testing only one version is typically accepted all around the world." I think this sentence is poorly written but there is some truth here.

During to the recent effort to standardize (pervert) karate into an Olympic sport, the shitei (required) kata for each style have been standardized. I have been training as a referee during this time - it has been immensely successful<g>. I, a Goju ryu practitioner in Switzerland, can now easily judge the performance of a Shotokan kata from Japan<g>. I look for things on my check list - the kata performer knows what is on my list and must show them. As a sport referee, I do not need to know anything about the style or philosophy behind it.

There are two issues about kata variations here: standardized kata and dojo kata. Dojo kata are what your sensei teaches you. Standardized kata are what you must do in public for competition.

I think competition (especially for kids) can be helpful but it should only be a crutch for a short time of your life. Consider a start in karate at age 15 and training until age 75. Consider starting competition at 18 and continuing until age 33. Competition is then maximally 25% of your karate life - what are you doing the other 75%? jmcw 10:09, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

You make some good points there. The problem is the use of the word "testing". Change the word "testing" to "competition" in the original quote and the statement might be accurate. Additionally, I would suggest that discussion of "standardized kata" occur primarily in the competition-related section, and the "kata" section remain focused on the development and purpose of kata training, and acknowledge that virtually every style of karate (and often individual schools within a style) has its own version of the kata which are more or less equally "correct" (notwithstanding that "correctness" largely relates to effective implementation of principles of balance, coordination, power-generation, etc..., rather than whether one's stance should be a little lower or higher during this kata, or one's punch should be to the solar-plexus or to the face during that kata...). Bradford44 14:37, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] cute picture

Does anyone like the cute karate pose picture at the beginning of the article? jmcw 19:23, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] karate influences from classical Japanese martial arts.

In the opening statement, karate is said to have developed from Chinese, Okinawan and Japanese martial arts. I have many references concerning Chinese and Okinawan roots. I have never seen one reference to support Japanese roots. Can anyone name a kata or a technique coming from classical (koryū) Japanese martial arts into karate? Even without a reference? jmcw 20:05, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

  • Without reference and from the top of my head: you can point to some similarities in wrist techniques coming from jujitsu (and also known in aikido), such as nikkyo present e.g. in Bassai dai kata. Also, feetwork seems clearly more consistent with other Japanese styles. But I do agree, that the article is not balanced in respect to pointing to the ambiguity of karate origins. I believe a section on ideas in support/against the theory of kungfu being the prototype of karate is necessary - in particular, because many contemporary Japanese masters will fiercly oppose it for ideological and non academic reasons. Pundit|utter 22:28, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
Wait, what? Since when does any japanese master of karate oppose its chinese origins? --Cubbi 02:30, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
well, in my experience it happens pretty often. Mostly because of looking down on the Chinese culture. Pundit|utter 03:40, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
In my experience it never happened. Maybe shito-ryu masters are more honest? :) --Cubbi 04:50, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
hahaha, let's not start the cross-style wars again ;) I respect and appreciate shito-ryu and it is, of course, possible, that its masters are more honest than elsewhere :P Pundit|utter 15:14, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
    • There is evidence that karate came from Chinese arts, but there is not evidence that it was any particular art. Certainly not to the point of saying "Karate decends from Wushu." Furthermore, Wikipedia is not a place for making political points. RogueNinjatalk 23:48, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
      • You're probably right that wu-shu may be more narrow than general ancient Chinese art karate may be derived from, although I heard this word used as a general term for Chinese martial arts. Thank you for agreeing that Wikipedia is not a place for making political points. Presenting various points of view is exactly what I was trying to achieve. Do I take it right that you'll add a nice and polished paragraph on the ambiguity of this term and on many attempts of Japanese karate masters to deprive "karate" of its original meaning? The article currently only cites a karate master explaining that Chinese hand was not really Chinese. Nothing more balanced. I find it funny that I myself being a karateka for years have to oppose the pretty recent myth about the art's name. Do you have any sources that advise NOT TO report at least ambiguity on karate's name origins? Pundit|utter 03:40, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

One only needs to read Funakoshi's books, or "modern bujutsu & budo by donald draeger to clear up 空 vs 唐. likewise to clear up the confusion of japanese influence. The classic question to japanese martial artist, how can an art never seen before in Japan prior to the meiji restoration have been influences that predate the meiji restorations????????? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.41.254.155 (talk) 21:32, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

I find this well said, "how can an art never seen before in Japan prior to the meiji restoration have influences that predate the meiji restorations". jmcw (talk) 23:02, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
Karate had not been seen in China too, but teachings from China found there way to Okinawa. 220.253.1.182 (talk) 21:48, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Just because the Japanese had not seen Okinawan arts does not mean that Okinawans had not seen Japanese arts. The Satsuma samurai who annexed Okinawa may have introduced some elements, perhaps unintentionally since the Okinawans were very secretive.--Ninja Shewolf (talk) 19:38, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

The Southern Chinese roots of Okinawan Karate are well-established. (Look at Ngo Cho kung fu for some convincing evidence; there are a couple of books out on it.) I have heard the Jujutsu theory but to the best of my knowledge it's pure speculation. It's not implausible, but it's hard to see much direct influence, whereas the kata clearly (and source-ably) come from Southern China. JJL (talk) 19:50, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Hmm, according to some new edits to Sōkon Matsumura, he was a master of Jigen-ryū before teaching Karate to Chocki Motobu, Anko Itosu, and Chotoku Kyan. If that's true, we might actually have some japanese influence after all. --Cubbi (talk) 00:08, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

That makes it plausible, but any such inference would still be WP:OR or at least WP:SYNTH until a source is found for it. JJL (talk) 04:37, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
I have found a citation to back up the Satsuma tradition. I'll add it to Sōkon Matsumura. We need to say something here too: there is some Japanese influence after all. jmcw (talk) 08:09, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
Karate began on the Okinawan island. It incorporated teachings from Bodhidharma, which arrived from China through the island of Taiwan. The teachings from Sohei were also incorporated from mainland Japan. More techniques were incorporated from Jujutsu during the Japanese invasion in the 17th century. In modern time, Karate incorporated teachings from Jigoro Kano. 220.253.1.182 (talk) 21:48, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Our newest editor 220.253.1.182 believes in the early Japanes influence:

"Around the 12th century, samurai from the Minamoto family arrived in Okinawa from Japan 
and became allies with the Ryukyuan nobles. The samurai taught their new allies the martial 
art of daitoryu aikijujutsu and the pechin combined it with their own fighting system."

Does anyone have a reference to support this theory? jmcw (talk) 07:13, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

References were provided (which you continue to remove, which is a form of vandalism) 220.253.10.197 (talk) 09:36, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
You are re-writing the lead sentence of the article and removing two references and adding none to justify the changes. This is poor manners. Please discuss with us here and show us the references to explain your wishes. Thank you! jmcw (talk) 09:48, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
No reference was removed besides a duplicate. It is not poor manners, as it is clearly evident references were added, and noted in the summary. However, your comment above is poor manners, as you claim the references do not exist. 220.253.10.197 (talk) 10:04, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Changing Quotations

Hi JJL - I have no problem with the text you wish to insert or the point that you want to emphasise. The only problem is that you are inserting your words in the middle of a reference: it would look as if your words were from the book that is footnoted. If you could find an alternative reference, that would be ideal; otherwise, could you please return the referenced quotation?

The opening paragraph specifies that there are three roots to karate: Chinese, Okinawian and Japanese. Chinese and Okinawian have references; Japanese does not ( because most likely there is NO Japanese influence on what was brought to Japan in the 1920/1930.) I would suggest that in six months or so that we remove the Japanese phrase entirely ( if there is no reference found.) jmcw (talk) 09:17, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Ah, I understand! Thanks, let me cogitate for a bit and I'll try again. JJL (talk) 12:53, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
It looks better. We will see how long before someone changes "Chinese" to "Japanese". After it had happended several times before, I had put in the "Japanese" with a request for a citation. jmcw (talk) 13:45, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
I've been following that discussion here. It seems quite speculative to me--of course it could have happened, but I see no evidence either in my own experiences (though I'm not a karateka) nor in anything I've ever read. I'm sure some karateka learned some JMA technique at some time before modern Karate, but am unconvinced of an actual influence. It seemed like the conversation was heading that way so I removed it but as you say I imagine it'll return. JJL (talk) 14:36, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree that the greatest influence came from China, including many of the kata. I just do not think we can rule out Japan entirely. Maybe "possibly" should be put before Japan. --Ninja Shewolf (talk) 09:08, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

That would be unsourced, unlike the claims for Chinese and Ryukuan influences, and something that merely can't be ruled out is unverifiable. I'm not aware of a good source that claims it did happen, only speculation that it could have happened. JJL (talk) 13:05, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
I asked above "Can anyone name a kata or a technique coming from classical (koryū) Japanese martial arts into karate?" No one has named a definite technique as "possibly". There is no grounds for speculation. jmcw (talk) 16:24, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Karata originated from India

Karate originated in India and then was greater developed and enhanced by the Chinese. Its even claimed that Kung Fu is also originally Indian. Mabuska (talk) 18:45, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Can you offer any proof of this? I'd be really surprised if anything that is recognisably 'Karate' originated in India. I mean, if so where is it now?
Based on just your assertion, saying "Karate originated from India" seems analogous to saying "English originated in Lebannon" (English came largely [from German which came] from Latin which came partly from Greek which came partly from Phoenician). This doesn't seem like a useful line of argument, it leaves out more than it actually tells us.The Zig (talk) 17:03, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
My Australian friend ask me to help out on the English wikipedia with this article. I added new reference and will translate more information later. Karate began in Okinawa, and incorporated many teachings from Bodhidharma. 220.253.1.182 (talk) 21:16, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
The Chinese Martial Arts have existed long before Bodhidharma was born. Further, there is little-to-no evidence that supports the claim that Bodhidharma had any involvement in the development of the Martial Arts in China. In regards to Karate, it originated in Okinawa, not India. Karate wasn't based on the Chinese Martial Arts but rather the previous Martial Arts that were developed on Okinawa, which unlike Karate, were based on Chinese Martial Arts brought over from China. 76.4.129.74 (talk) 04:07, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

The origins of a human activity that has spanned a thousand years is difficult to document. Remember Wikipedia:Verifiability! Find a book or a magazine article or a web site to support what you believe. jmcw (talk) 08:08, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Summary

This page's introduction could really use a little bit more about how Karate is relevant today. Like, how many practitioners there are, across how many countries.The Zig (talk) 17:06, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

sadly, data on this subject are difficult to find. There are many federations, each has some interest in claiming that it has a lot of members, etc. Pundit|utter 23:08, 26 February 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Sanskrit

In Sanskrit, the word "Kar" means 'hand', and "ate" means 'only'. Which refers to the same meaning as in Chinese.

I have checked three on-line dictionaries at http://spokensanskrit.de/ and http://webapps.uni-koeln.de/tamil/ and I don't believe this un-referenced statement. jmcw (talk) 11:03, 13 March 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Lead Sentence and References

There appears to be a misunderstanding about the lead sentence and its references. To support good-faith and good communications, I will show both versions here:

Karate (???) (listen (help·info)) (or karate-do (????)) is a martial art developed from Chinese kenpo[1][2] and indigenous fighting methods from the Ryukyu Islands.[1][2]

Karate (空手?) (listen (help·info)) (or karate-dō (空手道?)) is a Ryukyuan martial art originating from the island of Okinawa.

By my count, the first has two references and refers to both China and Okinawa. The second has no references and refers to only Okinawa. Does any agree to this analysis? jmcw (talk) 10:42, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, and the first sentence is well-supported while the second omits the Chinese influence which forms the largest part of the art. JJL (talk) 12:34, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
Agreed I would re phrase the first one as:
As the location is important but china definitely needs including, and that's before you start talking sources... --Nate1481(t/c) 12:44, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
yes, it does look better. jmcw (talk) 13:49, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
Southern Chinese martial arts were the bigger part (e.g., all the kata are of Chinese origin, and hence most of the techniques). I think they should come first in that sentence? JJL (talk) 14:00, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
It is certainly southern rather than northern influence. I've see references for Fujian Province - would that be too specific for you? jmcw (talk) 14:07, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
Certainly that's the biggest influence (e.g. Ngo Cho, and of course the precursor of Uechi-ryu, is is really a special case). That's fine by me. I just think it's misleading to list Ryukuan sysytems first. Of course they were a significant influence, but Kung Fu is the base and source of most techniques in the art. JJL (talk) 14:23, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

<- how about now (edited above) I only have a rough knowledge of the history so am ok with either, we don't need the same sources twice in the one sentence. P.S. I wouldn't go into exactly where in china in the lead, save that for the origin section. --Nate1481(t/c) 15:01, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Anyone that removes referenced information and its sources will be reported for vandalism. It will not be tolerated again. This is a warning. 220.253.4.36 (talk) 17:42, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
Err I hate to be picky but you removed two references, hence you should report yourself... --Nate1481(t/c) 10:44, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
The opening sentence is supported with the references provided in the opening header. It appears you have another agenda for yours edits, especially after backtracking your edits to this article. 220.253.4.36 (talk) 17:52, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
Two more references, including the history of Ryukyu from the Okinawa culture reference website. It mentions the Minamoto family marrying an Okinawan family, giving birth to a son, who would become Shunten. Along with the strong influence and relationship with Japanese mainland. 220.253.13.106 (talk) 23:23, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
Web references are not very compelling. I'd like to see an academic reference for these many claims, which appear to be mostly wishful thinking. They are certainly outside of the mainstream. JJL (talk) 01:10, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
You removed multiple references, including the reference from the offical Ryukyu culture archives. 220.253.13.106 (talk) 01:17, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
You're violating WP:3RR. It would be best to discuss these changes here and get consensus. Remember to assume good faith. People here have honest disagreements with you, and there may be conflicting sources. It would also be helpful if you registered under a regular user name. JJL (talk) 03:19, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
The article from the Okinawan educational board, explains a great deal about what you have been disregarding for months. 220.253.13.106 (talk) 04:53, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
Which means we have two conflicting sources. My personal view is that the Okinawan educational board will be less neutral,[3] however the information from both sources should be presented in a neutral manner and it stated that their is a debate on the subject. We are here to report not deduce. --Nate1481(t/c) 10:44, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
I know little about Taekwondo, but have a look at the history times. 220.253.21.8 (talk) 21:55, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
I say, it's actually an intriguing story, about Minamoto refugees from Genpei War, Other sites (such as http://www.wonder-okinawa.jp/023/eng/002/001/index.html) begin the history of Karate with 1372 visit of Chuzan King Satto to the Ming Dynasty, so the events of 1185, if real, do not really contradict anything. However, such details have no place in the lead. They should go in Karate#History under Karate#Okinawa. --Cubbi (talk) 11:02, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
wonder-okinawa and the ryukyuan culture archives are created by the Okinawan government, and its educational board. 220.253.21.8 (talk) 21:55, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
The 36 families are well documented; I'd like to see an academic book as a source for the claim that the Minamato refugees taught their martial arts to the Rykyuans and that this knowledge survived. For example, the Daitō-ryū Aiki-jūjutsu raises questions as to whether that art truly existed at that time (but grants that legend has it that it did). JJL (talk) 14:07, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
  1. ^ a b c Higaonna, Morio (1985). Traditional Karatedo Vol. 1 Fundamental Techniques, 17. ISBN 0-87040-595-0. 
  2. ^ a b c http://www.wonder-okinawa.jp/023/eng/001/001/index.html history of Okinawan Karate
  3. ^ For comparison, Has anyone seen some of the stuff on the origins of Taekwondo from some korean sources? Apparently its 2000+ years old and in no way at all, ever, related in any way, shape or form to Japan
Thats because Karate was created in the 14th century, it was bushite, and te before that time. The Ryukyuan culture archives are compiled from the books written by the Ryukyuan kings, which is what you study in Okinawa about your lineage. The only "conflicting" source for the history of daitoryuaikijujutsu in the wiki article, is from one book, and that book actually states it focuses on the written techniques of koryu jujutsu and not on jujutsu developed and passed down by family lineage. That same book also notes that Kempo is not a Japanese translation of the Chinese word Chuan Fa. You clearly have an anti-Ryukyuan/Japanese nationality persona JLL, which is evident in your edits. 220.253.21.8 (talk) 21:30, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Bias

This article is biased to some degree. Karate sparring for instance has been represented as a homogenous sport such as is performed within the WKF. The truth is that there are other forms of sparring such as bogu kumite that are historically relavent (please see the wiki entry for this) Very interesting and important to inculde. —Preceding unsigned comment added by BZJ (talk • contribs) 17:26, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree with your criticism. The two sections 'Sport' and 'Kumite' should describe not only the 'usual' kumite but also full contact and bogu kumite. jmcw (talk) 08:03, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
I hope the changes are satisfying. The kumite section addresses light and full contact kumite; bugu is also mentioned. The sport section clearly shows WKF as proponent of the Olympics. jmcw (talk) 10:24, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] History channel

Lead expanded with reference from the history channel, this information is also noted in the books written by Funakoshi. Who also details many other things about Karate and its history. 220.253.147.150 (talk) 11:53, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Could you possible define a user name for yourself? There are several people from your network VIC.netspace.net.au who are editing here (one returned to Okinawa two weeks ago) and it is a bit confusing. We can help you if you wish. jmcw (talk) 12:46, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
The history channel does not say where it obtained its information, which makes it impossible to verify. The information it presents conflicts with books published on the subject. Roman gladiators in Okinawa 1000 years ago is somewhat difficult to believe without a verifiable reference. jmcw (talk) 12:23, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
Your comment shows your ignorance on the subject, and that you need to learn more about martial history, particularly the origins of Kempo. Furthermore, claiming the history channel is a poor reference is ludicrous. This information is also stated by Funakoshi in his books about karate, but I suppose you have an issue with him as well. The information does not conflict with books published on the subject, there have been plenty of reliable references provided, and many editors trying to add similar information to the article for a long time, albeit given up due to the authoritarianism of you, and "JLL". It is cited from a reliable source, provides a reference to other information in the article. The history channel (with input from notable historians and leading universities) The Okinawan goverment and cultural archives, and books published by leading karate instructors are not poor references, especially when you don't provide any verifiable and reliable references. 220.253.147.150 (talk) 14:41, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
Perhaps you can cite a scholarly source on the matter? JJL (talk) 18:29, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
Wikipedia has a code of conduct WP:ETIQ. May I ask you to read about our etiquette please? jmcw (talk) 16:18, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
"Your" etiquette? Thats a laugh! You have done nothing but bully this article and removing mass references which have been asked for many months (years?) and return provide no references yourself, or validation as to why. How about you provide some "scholarly" sources, since none of the references provided are. You also continue to remove that it is an "Okinawan" martial art. 220.253.18.103 (talk) 10:38, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
I mainly look down on books written by martial artists because most of them rely heavily on martial arts "legends" that have been passed from master to student. I doubt they have consulted authentic historical martial arts records during the course of the writing of their book. People who buy their books tend to believe what they read because the author may be a world renowned master, thus perpetuating the legend. What is needed in this case is a book or research paper written by an unbiased scholar with no connection to the style (i.e. a non-martial artist). Take Prof. Meir Shahar's new book (2008) on Shaolin history for instance. He relied on historical steles and records to expose many of the commonly accepted Shaolin legends as myth. Bodhidharma (c. early 5th century), for example, is commonly accepted to be the progenitor of Shaolin arts in modern publications. However, Shahar has shown that Bodhi was not connected to Shaolin arts until the mid 17th century when a Taoist wrote the Sinew Changing Classic. This manual honestly lists several popular fictional characters from Chinese literature as lineage masters. Qing Dynasty scholars actually lauded the book as the creation of an uneducated village master. Prior to this work, Bodhi was historically only considered the progenitor of Chan Buddhism, the religious sect of Shaolin. In addition, Shaolin actually worshiped Vajrapani, a Buddhist guardian deity, as the progenitor of their arts as early as the 12th century. I know the subject at hand is a Japanese fighting art, but the example is transposable to the current problem.
One thing you must also think about is that you can only kick and punch someone or lock their wrist/elbow/knee joint in so many ways. Therefore, martial arts the world over have similar if not identical techniques. A martial artist may note parallels between their style and another style from a completely different time and culture. This may lead them to think the older of the two styles may have somehow influenced the younger. Was the joint-locking system of the German school of fencing influenced by the qinna used in China? I think not. In reference to this discussion, I'm afraid that it's just a case of similar, yet unrelated, techniques used by the Romans and the Japanese.
Don't even get me started on the History Channel! --Ghostexorcist (talk) 19:23, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
  • I don't think that Human Weapon satisfies the criteria for verifiability and validity. It is an entertaining show, and not a scholarly research-based program. They uncritically repeat legends and hearsay to make the show fun to watch, but I don't think even they claim they are an academically reliable source. Pundit|utter 20:04, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Karate Name

The following quote is from the book, Comprehensive Asian Fighting Arts by Donn F. Draeger and Robert W. Smith; page 59, paragraph 5:

The Okinawans chose the name of karate-jutsu to replace the word te. The ideogram was chosen because it represented the T'ang dynasty whence had come the basic ideas for the development of te. While this ideogram had been read as "to," it is more commonly read kara in Japanese. To kara was appended te, the original ideogram for Okinawan te. The ideogram jutsu was chosen because it meant "art." Thus karate-jutsu meant "China hand art." The Okinawans thus cleverly respected three cultures, that is Chinese (kara), their own (te), and the Japanese (jutsu).

The following quote is from the same book; page 60; paragraph 3:

By 1932 all Japanese universities had dojos for their practice of karate-jutsu. About this time, for convenience the term karate-jutsu was shortened to simply karate...

... The production of a new Japanese style, apart from its ancestral form, required a Japanese name (the character kara, meaning "China," was replaced by an ideogram meaning to "lose" or "empty" oneself to gain serenity of mind). The change of the ideogram for kara angered some Okinawans, who considered it a slight against China. Furthermore, the new Japanese style had no complete union with te, which had however, Okinawan karate masters came to accept the new ideogram.

I'm hoping this information will be of use to the article and will help improve it. 76.4.129.74 (talk) 22:25, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Meaning of the term "bunkai"

The term "bunkai" is used in the main article, but not defined. This term has a seperate article at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bunkai . Perhaps someone who knows how to do it, could link that word to that article. 58.174.242.29 (talk) 15:31, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Kickboxing connection

Kickboxing variants (for example K-1) win by knockout.

Since when was K-1 anything to do with Karate ? Kickboxing is a far cry from Karate kumite. Kegon (talk) 06:02, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Bad reference to WKF

WKF karate competition has two disciplines: sparring (kumite) and empty-handed forms (kata)

Something wrong here: all Karate is empty handed so kata is most definitely not "empty-handed forms" which kind of makes it sound like kumite is sparring with weapons and kata is sparring without. I would change this but I don't know what WKF officially translates kata to. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kegon (talk • contribs) 06:09, 9 June 2008 (UTC)