Talk:Jonestown

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[edit] "See Also"

For whomever was going to link "comparative examples," including "Heavens Gate" and "Waco" one odd thing about the PT is that there really aren't any great ones, and certainly none I can think of that fit enough to be in a section simply titled "See Also."

The PT is a political/personality cult centered around Jim Jones and hard core communism, looking to create a model community that would eventually serve as a light in a revolutionary overthrow of the capitalist world. They actually disliked messainic cults. In fact, they disliked religion, being anti-religious atheists, believing religion to be "an opiate of the people." Their death wasn't to go to heaven or an asteroid or because of some extra-worldly belief (alien, religious or otherwise). It was political. A "revolutionary suicide" to protest the conditions of an inhumane world.

By far, the closest comparative cult -- if you had to choose one for a "see also" section -- is the cult of Kim Jong-il. In fact, there is little question about this: Jones actually openly often referred to the DPRK's work, study and compliance systems, speaking in glowing terms about Kim il-Sung. And millions have died there (some of the deaths quite bizarre, as well).

But I think its a bad idea anyway because there really isn't a comparison close enough to the PT to put it in a "See Also" category (that would seem to be the place for links to actually connected and related people and groups, and there are many of those not even in the See Also list). It is kind of its own category, and nothing remotely was like it before or since.

And, for whoever added "Heaven's Gate" and "Waco", I certainly don't blame you for thinking that at first. Sometimes, media people unaware of the Peoples Temple's history (except lots of people died in something) do so as well, so a lot of people reading/watching some summary media coverage alone get the wrong idea. Same with "drinking the Kool Aid."

Better and/or more direct candidates for "See Also" might be: DPRK, Mark Lane (the PT's top outside theorist and one of its lawyers--also there during tragedy), George Moscone (not comparative, but the PT's protecting angel in San Fran), Kim Jong-il, Charles R. Garry (the PT's top lawyer--also there during the tragedy), Willie Brown (the PT's biggest supporter) and Donald Freed (one of PT's outside theorists -- visited and purportedly worked on getting documentary) Mosedschurte (talk) 18:40, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

The differences notwithstanding, Waco and Heaven's Gate are of comparative interest for being notorious instances wherein a cult ended in a mass slaying of its members.
-- Lonewolf BC (talk) 20:02, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
So did several much larger Nigerian cults, and tons in the DPRK.
And, bluntly, there are no less than 10 DIRECTLY RELATED things that would go on a "See Also" list before the incredibly odd listing of "Heaven's Gate" and "Branch Davidians" which make little or no sense -- like the Temple's friggin' lawyers (both of whom have articles on wikipedia) before an extra-terrestrial group waiting for Haley's comet. Not to mention the long list of actual politicians DIRECTLY supporting the Temple. But then the list would be 20 long, and its probably not worth doing that.Mosedschurte (talk) 20:29, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
The actual use of the "See also" list really needs to be considered here. If you will consult WP:ALSO, you'll find that the listing of related names, of the "Temple's friggin' lawyers" and the politicians aren't supposed to be listed in this section. It specifically says "Like links in other embedded lists, the links in the See also section should be worked into the text where possible." Since they are already included in the article and are wikilinked therein, I've removed those names from the list per the Wikipedia Manual of Style guidelines.
The purpose of "See also" is to provide a link to articles that are related, not to summarize links already present. Which brings me to the Symbionese Liberation Army and the Nation of Islam. If they are important to the story of Jonestown, then they should be integrated into the article, not left as an "oh, by the way" at the end. However, I'm not sure I see the specific relevance of including instances of mass suicide that occurred during battles or sieges in World War II or in ancient Israel or France, especially since the circumstances simply aren't the same, except possibly in ways that are much too complex to address in this article.
"especially since the circumstances simply aren't the same"
bullseye regarding alien worshippers Heaven's Gate (who purposefully killed themselves so that their souls could board a spaceship) and Branch Davidians at Waco (messianic religious extremists who were simply murdered by the building being lit on fire (by whom is debated, of course)). Couldn't have said it better myself.
In fact, now that you've pointed out the WP:Also rules (I honestly couldn't find that before), I now see that it specifically states "blue internal links to RELATED Wikipedia articles." You could probably generate 100 more "related" Wikipedia articles than Heaven's Gate or Waco. Or at at least 20. Most certainly Demmin, where almost the exact same number of people (almost 900) committed mass suicide falsely believing propaganda by cult of personality leader Hitler that an advancing Soviet force would slaughter them. To a lesser extent, Masada, though obviously the enslavement itself looked to be very real, but Jones actually referenced Masada specifically to PT members.
And the Nation of Islam and SLA aren't just related by vague implication. Their relation is explicit.Mosedschurte (talk) 04:21, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
Having said that, I'm afraid I have to agree with LoneWolf BC regarding the inclusion of articles such as Waco and Heaven's Gate, if for no other reason than in the minds of most people, the deaths of members of other modern cults that were either religion or pseudo-religion based are connected. Cults are remarkable for their extremist and idiosyncratic views, be it fundamental religious views, extra-terrestrial beliefs, or a homecooked religious/political brew such as the Peoples Temple (which did began as religious, let's not lose track of that fact). The purpose of offering the link to articles with similar outcomes is to allow the reader to determine what was relevant in its connection and tenets. I've not removed SLA, Nation of Islam, Masada, Saipan, Battle of Aquae Sextiae or Demmin, though I believe they should be. The two documentaries should probably be integrated into a media section instead of a "See also" list. Wildhartlivie (talk) 03:21, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
Regarding: "The purpose of offering the link to articles with similar outcomes is to allow the reader to determine what was relevant in its connection and tenets", that's an interesting take, but it's simply not the WP:Also rule. If you will consult WP:ALSO, you'll find that it simply states that "related" links not included in the article should be posted. Were one to take a broad readings such that all "similar outcomes" were posted in articles, regardless of extreme dissimilarities, "to allow the reader to determine what was relevant", one could list virtually 10,000 items for World War II alone.
This statement actually contradicts facts in the article: "if for no other reason than in the minds of most people, the deaths of members of other modern cults that were either religion or pseudo-religion based are connected" Yes, it began with a fake religious front cooked up by Jones long ago, but the Peoples Temple actively disliked religion in reality, and by the time of the Jonestown exodus (this article is Jonestown), this was openly admitted. Repeatedly.
In fact, by including pseudo supernatural cults or messianic cults like the Branch Davidians and Heavens Gate in what was a very short list of purportedly "related" items, one is not only including entirely unrelated cults, but -- it can be argued -- furthering the already INCORRECT notion about the PT that caused so many people (including former members and relatives of the deceased) to publicize the actual facts from interviews, tapes and documents when they were later disclosed. But the publicity damage of some generalized notion of it being some sort of religious/messianic cult already out there loosely portrayed in various media from November 1978-December 1979 was so powerful, that many people still actively hold that belief. Mosedschurte (talk) 04:36, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

To Lonewolf: you can't delete every single related article from See Also while simultaneously including tenuously connected articles. Please see "WP:ALSO". Mosedschurte (talk) 09:37, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Comment

Edit warring is not the way to come to a decision about what does, or does not, belong in the See also section. There are obviously two diverse opinions at issue over this. Mosedchurte's viewpoint of Peoples Temple seems to be that it wholly and completely was a political counterculture movement. I see it as a religion based cult whose leader steadily became more politically radical even as his mental status deteriorated. I believe that Lonewolf BC sees it that way as well. I don't think that the religious factor can be ignored, despite what was changing in Jones' rhetoric. Peoples Temple leadership obviously was steering it politically, but Peoples Temple was not just about its leaders. You cannot convince me that 900+ people picked up and moved that far away because they believed that Jim Jones was strictly going to solve their societal problems. Nor that roughly that number chose death for themselves and their loved ones out of political loyalty. Jones and his cronies may have actively disliked religion, and their views may have been atheistic, but I don't believe the members of Peoples Temple had this same viewpoint. Jones may not have viewed himself as a Messianic figure, but I am convinced the members viewed him as such. They called him Father, they attuned to him as a teacher. Peoples Temple was a cult. Cults frequently present political agendas disguised as spiritual beliefs and guidance. I think that if one were to research it deeply enough, the average education level of the group would be quite low. It's much easier to misguide and manipulate those with less education, and Jones took advantage of it by presenting his rhetoric as moral and spiritual guidance. The typical person at Jonestown died because of their faith - that it was faith in Father and not The Father is an artifact of Jones' garbage. That's why Branch Davidians and Heaven's Gate is like Peoples Temple.

Well, that's a fairly ignorant view of the actual history (including even what you characterize as my view), on so many levels they're honestly not worth addressing, but it's also irrelevant to the "controversy" on the See Alsos. In fact, Temple members who actually died left suicide notes attacking outsiders falsely claiming they viewed Jones as a God, Jim Jones actually called up members believing in God and publicly ridiculed them (repeatedly), Tim Carter and Stephan Jones not only didn't think of Jones as a God but wanted him to DIE in November, and I don't even want to list the 1,000s of other facts consistent with the above.
However, none of that historical ignorance really matters. Rather, the issue is whether unrelated events occurring at other times in history should be included in the see also section on the basis of extremely tenuous similarities in a tiny handful of facts. Obviously, Demmin is certainly the closest, where 30 years earlier, almost 900 people committed mass suicide upon the false statement by their cult of personality leader (Hitler) that approaching forces would murder and torture them. I'm not sure it should even be included. But, for example, the deaths at the BATF raid in Waco, where messianic religious extremists burned in a building lit on fire (by whom is debated), literally only shares the similarities that multiple people in a cult died.
The point being that there is no way following the WP:ALSO rules that BATF Waco raid must be included over others' objections, while simulataneously, for instance, the similar Demmin mass suicide must actually be DELETED over others' objections.
Crossing the border over into utter silliness is actually demanding the inclusion, for instance, of the BATF raid at Waco while simultaneously demanding the deletion of, for instance, ACTUAL RELATED articles, like the SLA -- a concurrent California group not only referenced favorably by Jones but to whom Jones made a direct offer -- and the Nation of Islam, a concurrent group with which the PT actually had hostile (bordering on violent) relations which were healed in a televised 1976 (after Jonestown's creation) Spiritual Jubilee in the Los Angeles Convention Center involving thousands of participants, many of whom died in Jonestown.
And this is simply a gross misunderstanding of the events in the Pavilion on the night of November 18: "The typical person at Jonestown died because of their faith." The reality, as demonstrated on the death tape itself as just one source, is quite different. The mass suicide occurred because they believed forces (the GDF was mentioned at least once) were going to parachute in, torture them and kidnap their children after the murder of Congressman Ryan. Not to mention, there was no "typical person at Jonestown" -- they were an incredibly nonhomogeneous group from widely varying backgrounds (including doctors, laywers, a former CBS news correspondent and aged welfare recipients) with widely varying beliefs. Mosedschurte (talk) 12:53, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

As far as I'm concerned, it's a huge stretch to connect what happened in Jonestown with events in ancient history or extreme actions during WWII, whether Jones referenced it or not. Jones used things in reference to manipulate his believers into following his directives. This is also what cult leaders do: use the faith of followers, and the worst lead them into cult suicide.

In any case, a request for comment can be posted to determine a consensus opinion on this issue. Wildhartlivie (talk) 11:48, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

There will likely not be a consensus reached on the issues as framed above. There is more likely to be a consensus reached on whether the WP:ALSO "related" term should be interpreted broadly enough to include unrelated other events in history sharing 1-2 factual similarities. If so, then other such events including a similar number of factual similarities can be included, along with other actually directly related articles. Mosedschurte (talk) 13:02, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
Where there is no consensus favouring particular changes to an article, the article is to stay as it was until and unless such consensus is gained. Waco and Heavens Gate have been in the "See also" for a long time, so they must stay unless there is a consensus to remove them. The new links Mosedschurte wishes to add must stay out unless there is consensus to include them. Mosedschurte plainly has some strong opinions in relation to Jonestown. I don't mean to disparage them, but they also seem quite ideosyncratic. In any case, he must convince the general editorship of this article to support the changes he wishes to make to "See also". He may not make them unilaterally, in the face of disagreement. -- Lonewolf BC (talk) 16:46, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
I understand from examing your talk page that you have strong views on a wide variety of issues. But you have now deleted sourced directly related materials complying with the WP:ALSO out of the see also section with no explanation. Wikipedia provides no time limit on changes, nor does it contain a prior "consensus" requirement. Mosedschurte (talk) 17:03, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
You'll have to excuse me, since I'm fairly ignorant, utterly silly and grossly misunderstand everything, but you will have to show me where Lonewolf BC removed sourced materials. There were no citations connected in any way to any of the See also additions, and there is no precedent for the use of sourcing for this section. All I saw were short sentences to explain why they were being listed. As I noted, long ago and far up the page, WP:ALSO says "links in the See also section should be worked into the text where possible, and usually removed from the See also list unless that would make them hard to find." There is no foundation in the article for the inclusion of the greater part of the listings that were added, and frankly, it is beyond the scope of this article for a discussion of how Jim Jones and Jonestown relate to Stalin, Kim Jong-Il, the SLA, Nation of Islam, or Masada, Demmin, Saipan or the Battle of Aquae Sextiae. It might be within the scope of an article dealing with comparative politics and philosophies of these groups and persons.
And for this page's record, WP:NPA says to comment on the content, not the contributor. Wildhartlivie (talk) 18:01, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
Regarding: "There is no foundation in the article for the inclusion of the greater part of the listings that were added, and frankly, it is beyond the scope of this article for a discussion of how Jim Jones and Jonestown relate to Stalin, Kim Jong-Il, the SLA, Nation of Islam, or Masada, Demmin, Saipan or the Battle of Aquae Sextiae. It might be within the scope of an article dealing with comparative politics and philosophies of these groups and persons."
This is why, after even entirely unrelated items were in the See Also section such as the BATF raid at Waco, I did not include the directly RELATED articles (such as the SLA and Nation of Islam) in the text of the article. Rather, they were placed in the "see also" section, per the WP:ALSO directives. After noticing that the "see also" section also contained unrelated articles of events occurring at entirely different times in history that shared some small factual similarities, I added other events sharing more factual similarities (such as Demmin).
I did not include the refs for the sources on the directly related SLA and the Nation of Islam articles because I did not think a ref should be provide in the See Also articles. There are references to both I could provide from Raven alone if necessary. Mosedschurte (talk) 18:30, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

<outdent>No, there is no precedent for adding references to a See also section. My comment regarding that is in direct reply to your response to Lonewolf of "you have now deleted sourced directly related materials... out of the see also section." The point was that they weren't sourced and they should not be.

I've looked back over the article history at the See also section and I don't find a listing of articles of events that occurred at entirely different times in history. Unless I'm sorely mistaken, Waco, Heaven's Gate and Jonestown all occurred within approximately a 20 year span. That's last week compared to events during WW2 and yesterday compared to 102 BC. I don't see those as so widely scattered in history.

There is one point that is being overlooked here. It's usually a good rule of thumb to write an article, especially one that will be of interest to a wide group of people, at a level that will allow those people to understand it. I am of above average intelligence. I am a summa cum laude college graduate, but my degree is not in a political area. I suspect Lonewolf is also in that general neighborhood of intelligence. However, you are assuming that we should automatically understand and accept, on your say so, that this seemingly disparate grouping of articles that you've proposed should be obvious to us. That it isn't - means what? I'm historically ignorant? Thanks. I have not been presented with any rationale beyond "Jones referenced them" to explain why the SLA or Nation of Islam or Stalin or the Battle of Aquae Sextiae is directly related. Rather than go on the offensive against our opinion and understanding and pronounce it as ignorant, the burden is on you to convince us of why it's pertinent. Because it's obvious to you, in whatever area you study or have studied, doesn't make it obvious to the next, mutually intelligent person. It isn't a matter of a collective consciousness. The people on Wikipedia are as nonhomogeneous as you suggest the people of Jonestown were. Wildhartlivie (talk) 19:11, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Regarding: "I've looked back over the article history at the See also section and I don't find a listing of articles of events that occurred at entirely different times in history."
This included two that occurred in the 1990s: a BATF raid at Waco at which several Branch Davidians died in a building fire and the Heavens Gate attempted UFO ship boarding suicides
Regarding "Rather than go on the offensive against our opinion and understanding" -> actually every single proposed article link I made was simply deleted in its entirely. And remains so.
Regarding "the burden is on you to convince us of why it's pertinent." An interesting take, as well as implicitly setting yourself up as some sort of factual arbiter to be convinced. Rather than quibble about it or that characterization, here are some summaries:
Jonestown suicides - a group of 900 PT members (68% black) who committed mass suicide following communist cult of personality leader Jones declaring that advancing military forces would torture and/or kill them
GROUPS DIRECTLY RELATED BY EVENTS TO THE PT (through direct relation, not just vague similarities)
SLA - a Maoist cult operating in California while the PT was there, some of the members of which attended PT speeches, about which Jones made favorable political references and to which Jones made an offer to trade himself for Patty Hearst.
Nation of Islam - a primarily African American organization with operations concurrent with those of the PT in California that had several hostile encounters with the PT, ending in a May 23, 1976 "spriritual jubilee" (the NOI's name) with the PT in the Los Angeles Convention center attended by thousands of members of both the NOI and hte PT, some of whom eventually died in Jonestown.
UNRELATED EVENTS AT OTHER POINTS IN HISTORY WITH SOME FACTUAL SIMILARITIES
Demmin suicides- 33 years before Jonestown, a group of nearly 900 German civilians committed mass suicide believing their cult of personality leader Hitler's declarations that Soviet forces would kill and torture them all.
Masada suicides - just over 900 members of an extremist Jewish zealot group (including families) following leader Elazar ben Yair committed mass suicide in a mountain fortress rather than be subject to what they considered to be certain death and/or enslavement by Roman forces.
Heavens Gate suicides - 19 years after Jonestown, thirty eight UFO enthusiasts following cult leader Marshall Applewhite killed themselves in order to board what they believed to be a space ship traveling behind the Hale-Bopp comet.
Kim Jong-il - a communist leader of a cult of personality enacting similar work & study schedule and no emigration policies implemented by Jones in North Korea, a country explicitly cited by Jones as an exemplary communist community
BATF Seige at Waco burning deaths - 72 members of a breakaway of the Seventh Day Adventist Church, following Wayne Howell who claimed to be able to open the Seven Seals referenced in biblical texts, died in a building fire as the BATF raided the building with some sort of tank-like vehicles punching holes in the walls.
Saipan suicides - 34 years before Jonesotwn, hundreds of Japanese civilians committed suicide believing Japanese declarations that advancing U.S. forces would torture or kill them. Mosedschurte (talk) 20:34, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Death Quantifying and "Murder", "Suicide" and "Murder Suicide"

I've noticed that prior attempts to quantify those dying in the summary were left vague (with a note specifically saying such) because of some question as to whether it was "murder", "suicide" or the very odd "murder-suicide."

Going down that road can be avoided in the summary while permitting the numbers that died in Jonestown and Port Kaituma to be quantified. The actual facts that most (except Jones and Annie Moore) died of apparent cyanide poisoning and they termed the event a "revolutionary suicide" should suffice to describe it. One can read the article for more specificity. One can state such about the 909 dying in Jonestown, and refer to the 5 dying at Port Kaituma as murdered by gunshot.Mosedschurte (talk) 06:54, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Regardless of how it was worded internally, the number of people who died was deliberately left vague because there were conflicting reports on how many there were. I'm also not sure when the YouTube clips were added as sources, and it doesn't really matter, but a YouTube cite is rarely, if ever, acceptable per WP:EL due to copyright problems. Since those clips appear to be from a TV newscast, copyright problems must be assumed. Wildhartlivie (talk) 08:52, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
The final numbers were:
909 in Jonestown (most in Pavilion, 13 in Jones cabin, some in other places)
5 at Port Kaituma (Ryan, Harris, Brown, Robinson, P Parks)
4 at Georgetown (Sharon, Liane, Christa and Martin Amos)
So you see the numbers 909, 914 and 918 thrown around. Every now and then, another number (like 913) will squeeze in an article where they don't really check, or they're citing Temple members dying (909 in Jonestown + 4 in Georgetown).
Only the Port Kaituma victims were non-Temple members. Patty Parks was, but had defected 2-3 hours before her death.
The old youtube clip was from the TV show. I suppose the TV show itself could be cited. Or just leave it unsourced, which pecking around on wikipedia today, I'd say is probably about 80% of the sentences in most articles. I didn't really realize it until I started looking around, but this Jonestown article has got to be up there among the most sources/sentence on Wikipedia. Mosedschurte (talk) 10:25, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Well-sourced articles is the goal, and the ultimate goal is to get an article to featured article status, which comprises a little under .0009% of the just under 2.4 million+ articles. Just below that is good article status, which is another .0018%. GA and FA have increasingly difficult criteria in referencing, formatting, linking, grammar, spelling, etc. I would venture to say that nearly every featured article has equally extensive referencing, depending on the controversiality of the subject and the actual source material available. Off-hand, I know Charles Manson, which isn't even good article (yet), Ronald Reagan, interestingly Natalee Holloway, and oddly, Religious debates over Harry Potter, are all (except Manson) featured articles I picked at random from the page with extensive citations.

When I spend any time on an article, I try to make it conform as much as possible to the criteria given what I have to work with, which is why I generally tag things I know need a source. The YouTube show most likely has a Library of Congress or similar type of cataloguing, so that is fine to use as the source. Wildhartlivie (talk) 10:48, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

It might. Its a Guyanese TV show that went out to the site in 2003 with a former pilot who flew into Jonestown during the PT's occupation. I'm not really sure about a Library of Congress cataloguing. Mosedschurte (talk) 16:30, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Numbers

I noticed in the lead section two points that are possibly problematic. The first, which says it is "the largest such event in over 1,900 years of history" needs a reference to support it. The second, which says "the largest mass suicide of United States citizens by at least an order of magnitude" is undefined, as the order of magnitude is numerically meaningless without specific factors (the base number and the order of magnitude given). Wildhartlivie (talk) 20:49, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Good point on order of magnitude. I deleted that (I'd added it, but thought base 10). For the 1,900 years point, I added a "(see mass suicides)", pointing to the wikipedia article itself on mass suicides. The largest listed there was over 1,900 years earlier (Masada). Mosedschurte (talk) 21:06, 5 June 2008 (UTC)